Dog Attack Limerick

Dyr

OldNotWIse wrote: »

"Bred for aggression" - You cannot breed aggression into a dog. It's learned behaviour. The bad reps are more to do with the types of owners these dogs tended to have in the past, hence the bad name.

Beasts lol

Really, you can't breed for certain traits? Well thats two thousand years of selective breeding down the tubes so

CruelCoin

ScumLord wrote: »

This is alarmist nonsense. The German Shepard as it's name would suggest was breed for farm work and herding but they did will in protection work because they took commands well. Aggressive dogs are no good to anyone because you can't control them, all dogs that work in security and protection are very obedient and loyal which is the trait that breeders look for.

Yes, those in security look for obedience, but only so that their dogs will not rip the face off every person they meet.

Given the slightest nudge from their handlers, these dogs go ape and rip into what they were set on.

That aggression is most definitely bred into these dogs. An non-aggressive dog cannot be relied on to attack when required.

And going back to my original point, these breeds, bred for aggression and savagery, have no place as pets. Borderline acceptable on a remote farm, but totally out of bounds in a community area like a housing estate.

A_Sober_Paddy

CruelCoin wrote: »

Certain breeds (rotweiler, doberman, german shepard, etc) are specifically bred for aggression. These have no place as pets, and no amount of exercise is going to take the inbuilt predatory instinct out of these beasts.

A dog that did it once will do it again given the chance. Absolutely right to destroy it.

German Sheppards aren't aggressive dogs naturally. We think they are because they are used as guard dogs and in movies they are used as aggressive dog as they look scary and are very easy to train.

A mate of mine breads and shows German Sheppards and they are all very friendly dogs. I've also seen one of his dog's, his about 8 stone and a former world champion(or European champion) and his very well trained and looked after and the local kids love him. They will come over and pat him when his out on his walk...

How if I didn't know the dog, I'd be afraid to go near him, because if he was aggressive he'd easily kill me.

Not any particular breed is aggressive, as long as they are threaded properly and walked on a regular basis, Husky's need are serious amount of walking. I read somewhere before, they should be walk at least 5 miles a day and that was the bare minimum.

Too many people get dogs because they look cute, but don't know the first thing about them. Like how exercise they need...

OldNotWIse

Andy!! wrote: »

so... the fact that lions are more aggresive than cats isn't down to their genes, it's down to learned behaviour? lol. Got any links to articles that substanciate that?

Yes, tell that to the dismembered shrews and fieldmice my lads regularly leave at the front door

OldNotWIse

CruelCoin wrote: »

Yes, those in security look for obedience, but only so that their dogs will not rip the face off every person they meet.

Given the slightest nudge from their handlers, these dogs go ape and rip into what they were set on.

That aggression is most definitely bred into these dogs. An non-aggressive dog cannot be relied on to attack when required.

And going back to my original point, these breeds, bred for aggression and savagery, have no place as pets. Borderline acceptable on a remote farm, but totally out of bounds in a community area like a housing estate.

lol, have they mapped the savagery gene yet?

OldNotWIse

Bambi wrote: »

Really, you can't breed for certain traits? Well thats two thousand years of selective breeding down the tubes so

I didn't say you "cant breed for certain traits", but I dont think its as easy as saying one breed is more aggressive than another. Certainly bigger dogs get a bad rep because if they are aggressive they have the potential to do more damage, but I simply do not believe that you can say with 100% certainty, "Oh breed A is more aggressive than breed B". I believe that aggression in dogs is largely due to bad ownership.

ScumLord

CruelCoin wrote: »

Yes, those in security look for obedience, but only so that their dogs will not rip the face off every person they meet.

Given the slightest nudge from their handlers, these dogs go ape and rip into what they were set on.

No, I'm afraid your wrong again. A friend of mine has done Schutzhund training and while Schutzhund isn't exactly what police forces would train their dogs it is basic protection work and obedience training. The dog will not do anything unless it's trainer tells it too, having people come up and try and aggravate the dog into biting without the command is all part of the training.

It's work to these dogs, they know the difference between working and being free.

Born to Die

Anyone know how the poor child is?

Dyr

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I didn't say you "cant breed for certain traits", but I dont think its as easy as saying one breed is more aggressive than another. Certainly bigger dogs get a bad rep because if they are aggressive they have the potential to do more damage, but I simply do not believe that you can say with 100% certainty, "Oh breed A is more aggressive than breed B". I believe that aggression in dogs is largely due to bad ownership.

You cannot breed aggression into a dog

Aggression is a trait so yeah you did say that you can't breed traits. We've been being doing it since the stone ages. Breed certain traits such as docility into types of livestock and others such as aggression into other animals, such as game fowl or guarding animals.

OldNotWIse

Bambi wrote: »

Aggression is a trait so yeah you did say that you can't breed traits. We've been being doing it since the stone ages. Breed certain traits such as docility into types of livestock and others such as aggression into other animals, such as game fowl or guarding animals.

Sigh... I do not believe that aggression can be bred into an animal. I believe that aggression is a reaction to bad ownership, or a manifestation of fear etc. I did not say that it is not possible to breed any traits into dogs, which you seem to think I did. Of course physical traits can be bred in. In fact, one major problem now presenting is the exaggeration of certain physical characteristics which lead to bad health (syringiomyelia in cavaliers being just one example). Now can we please stop with the verbal gymnastic point scoring and get on with some reasonable debate?

Just out of curiosity, how have livestock and guinea fowl managed to worm their way into the discussion?

Naomi00

Old thread..

CruelCoin

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Sigh... I do not believe that aggression can be bred into an animal

There was a National Geographic article recently which highlighted how a group of scientists identified aggressive genes in mice, and bred these over generations.

Those 2 or 3 generations down the line were relatively docile, while those 20 generations down the line went positively ape when they saw a person.

You may not believe it can be done, but it has been done, and will continue to be done.

And i must add that these were not test-tube mice, but rather those that exhibited aggressive behaviour, mated with those equally agressive.

OldNotWIse

CruelCoin wrote: »

There was a National Geographic article recently which highlighted how a group of scientists identified aggressive genes in mice, and bred these over generations.

Those 2 or 3 generations down the line were relatively docile, while those 20 generations down the line went positively ape when they saw a person.

You may not believe it can be done, but it has been done, and will continue to be done.

And i must add that these were not test-tube mice, but rather those that exhibited aggressive behaviour, mated with those equally agressive.

Interesting, thanks for info. Were they specific breeds (do they even have specific breeds of mice lol) or just two random aggressive ones thrown together etc? I am still curious though, as to how people think aggression can be bred into dogs? If we are to apply this logic, we could take an aggressive jrt and an aggressive something else or other and make aggressive offspring - but the post I responded to originally (cant remember but wa ssome ranting about savagery etc), claimed that certain BREEDS were more aggressive. (I think it was dobermans (dobermen?lol), German shepherds and rotties) but to apply the logic from the mouse experiment (which i am not discounting btw) if we bred two passive rotties we would most likely get passive pups, if we bred two aggressive pomeranians we would likely get aggressive pups - so the idea that certain breeds can be "relied upon" (for want of a better term) to be aggressive is not sound.

Dyr

CruelCoin wrote: »

There was a National Geographic article recently which highlighted how a group of scientists identified aggressive genes in mice, and bred these over generations.

Those 2 or 3 generations down the line were relatively docile, while those 20 generations down the line went positively ape when they saw a person.

You may not believe it can be done, but it has been done, and will continue to be done.

And i must add that these were not test-tube mice, but rather those that exhibited aggressive behaviour, mated with those equally agressive.

tbh its a result of some well meaning pussyfication that leads people to believe that any aggressive impulse must be an aberration that was caused by traumatic experiences. Kinda funny when you see how vital aggression is in nature.

ScumLord

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Interesting, thanks for info. Were they specific breeds (do they even have specific breeds of mice lol) or just two random aggressive ones thrown together etc? I am still curious though, as to how people think aggression can be bred into dogs? If we are to apply this logic, we could take an aggressive jrt and an aggressive something else or other and make aggressive offspring - but the post I responded to originally (cant remember but wa ssome ranting about savagery etc), claimed that certain BREEDS were more aggressive. (I think it was dobermans (dobermen?lol), German shepherds and rotties) but to apply the logic from the mouse experiment (which i am not discounting btw) if we bred two passive rotties we would most likely get passive pups, if we bred two aggressive pomeranians we would likely get aggressive pups - so the idea that certain breeds can be "relied upon" (for want of a better term) to be aggressive is not sound.

You can breed tameness into animals so I'd guess you could say you could make animals more aggressive. It is a trait that some animals have taken to the extreme like honey badgers or the Tasmanian devil (which I'm assuming is just like the cartoon version in some way) but I think we're confusing mindless simple aggression with tenacity and single-minded fearlessness.

Small terriers where breed to be absolutely fearless vermin killers. When they go about that task they look highly aggressive but they are in fact just doing their job quickly and efficiently. It's not aggression for the sake of aggression it's the rapid completion of a task. When the job is complete they can go back to being nice and playful.
In todays world though they have no job to direct that state of mind at so they start getting wound up by strangers and every little thing that moves. Many people think small dogs are crazy when in fact their perfectly normal for the breed, it's just they have nothing to apply their skills too. Bit like an hyperactive person being forced to sit on the couch all day, it'll drive them cracked.

OldNotWIse

ScumLord wrote: »

You can breed tameness into animals so I'd guess you could say you could make animals more aggressive. It is a trait that some animals have taken to the extreme like honey badgers or the Tasmanian devil (which I'm assuming is just like the cartoon version in some way) but I think we're confusing mindless simple aggression with tenacity and single-minded fearlessness.

Small terriers where breed to be absolutely fearless vermin killers. When they go about that task they look highly aggressive but they are in fact just doing their job quickly and efficiently. It's not aggression for the sake of aggression it's the rapid completion of a task. When the job is complete they can go back to being nice and playful.
In todays world though they have no job to direct that state of mind at so they start getting wound up by strangers and every little thing that moves. Many people think small dogs are crazy when in fact their perfectly normal for the breed, it's just they have nothing to apply their skills too. Bit like an hyperactive person being forced to sit on the couch all day, it'll drive them cracked.

I can identify with that! I have a jacker myself and even though she's adorable (and highly intelligent) I have to be sure to "work" her for at least an hour every day to keep us both sane. So anything scent/search/dig orientated she loves. I researched the breed before and they have a trait called the "Napoleon complex" where they essentially think they are bigger than they are, and are fiercely brave and protective. It's amazing to see the breed specifics in her. Even her high pitched, excited bark (to alert the pack that "there's x,y or z in this hole" lol). She's not aggressive but if I dont spend at least an hour working her she will get bored and destructive (eat zips, chase the cats, chew my shoes etc)

Oh and she's brought home one or two pretty big rats aswell!

ScumLord

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Oh and she's brought home one or two pretty big rats aswell!

That's what they're for. Dogs like that can seek out and kill rodents far better than cats can. Apparently they can kill a rat with just one shake of the head once they get it in their mouth.

OldNotWIse

ScumLord wrote: »

That's what they're for. Dogs like that can seek out and kill rodents far better than cats can. Apparently they can kill a rat with just one shake of the head once they get it in their mouth.

With these I think she broke the back. Still, more humane than a cat who will play with and torture a rodent for hours before finishing it off.

ScumLord

OldNotWIse wrote: »

With these I think she broke the back. Still, more humane than a cat who will play with and torture a rodent for hours before finishing it off.

Yeah, cats are sadistic. The dog is just doing it's job.

OldNotWIse

ScumLord wrote: »

Yeah, cats are sadistic. The dog is just doing it's job.

true, I still love mine though useless as they are compared with the jrt :rolleyes:

marco_polo

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Interesting, thanks for info. Were they specific breeds (do they even have specific breeds of mice lol) or just two random aggressive ones thrown together etc? I am still curious though, as to how people think aggression can be bred into dogs? If we are to apply this logic, we could take an aggressive jrt and an aggressive something else or other and make aggressive offspring - but the post I responded to originally (cant remember but wa ssome ranting about savagery etc), claimed that certain BREEDS were more aggressive. (I think it was dobermans (dobermen?lol), German shepherds and rotties) but to apply the logic from the mouse experiment (which i am not discounting btw) if we bred two passive rotties we would most likely get passive pups, if we bred two aggressive pomeranians we would likely get aggressive pups - so the idea that certain breeds can be "relied upon" (for want of a better term) to be aggressive is not sound.

This stiudy suggest that Breed is a small enough factor in aggressive behaviour.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/04/090424114315.htm