Priest bashing

hairyprincess

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/18/us-church-usa-abuse-idUSTRE74H6YA20110518

(Reuters) - A church-sponsored study on Wednesday blamed poorly trained priests and a deviant society for the Roman Catholic Church's sex abuse crisis, but victims dismissed it as a whitewash of an institutional coverup.
The largest study ever done on youth sexual abuse by U.S. Catholic clergy concluded that priests were no more likely to abuse than anyone else, gay priests were not more likely than straight priests to abuse, and the priestly vow of celibacy was not directly to blame.
The study, conducted by researchers at John Jay College in New York and covering the past 50 years, also found clergy abuse cases have dropped since the 1980s.
"There's no single cause of the sexual abuse crisis ... and the problem is largely historical," study researcher Karen Terry told reporters at a Washington news conference.
"It is consistent with patterns of increased deviance in society during that time" in the 1960s and 1970s, she said, adding that rates of abuse within the Church were comparable to that of organizations like schools and clubs.
Priests unprepared for a life of celibacy turned mentoring relationships into abusive ones, she said.
Poor reporting of clergy abuse cases to civil authorities and a pattern of transferring of abusive priests to other parishes by some bishops have cast a cloud over the Church.
Pope Benedict and other leaders have offered apologies to victims, and this week the Vatican issued a directive to bishops around the world to make rooting out abuse a priority.
PREDICTABLE
A group that represents victims of clergy abuse said bishops continue to cover up crimes, and that shame leaves many more victims of abuse silent.
"Predictably and conveniently, the bishops have funded a report that tells them precisely what they want to hear: it was all unforeseeable, long ago, wasn't that bad and wasn't their fault," said David Clohessy, executive director of the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests (SNAP).
"The reason this crisis is happening in the Church is because the criminals are hidden and coddled and promoted rather than ousted as in other institutions," Clohessy said.
He said the study was based on self-reporting by bishops who are "far more reluctant to report recent crimes by young priests who still face prosecution and litigation versus older priests for whom the criminal and civil statue of limitations has expired."
The U.S. Catholic Church has paid out some $3 billion to settle sexual abuse lawsuits, bankrupting some dioceses.
The report released by the sponsoring U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops said progress had been made by the Church hierarchy in addressing the clergy abuse problem since it erupted in the Boston archdiocese more than a decade ago.
Millions of lay Catholics and clerics have undergone "safe environment" training, with seminarians educated about the issue and not ordained until they receive a background check.
Terry fended off questions about any bias toward the Church in the report, saying researchers also relied on information from victims and treatment centers.
The Church hierarchy previously mishandled abuse cases, she said, paying more attention to perpetrators than victims. "Rehabilitated" priests were returned to ministry only to abuse again, Terry said.
"The report encourages the bishops to increase the level of accountability and transparency," Terry said.
In the past half-century, the report said nearly 6,000 priests were accused of abuse, or about 5 percent of total serving priests. About 5 percent of abusive priests were confirmed pedophiles, defined as those whose victims were younger than age 11.
"While less than 5 percent of the priests were true pedophiles, 51 percent of the victims were between the ages of 11 and 14, which is still quite young. Why? My guess is because of access and vulnerability," commented Thomas Reese of Georgetown University's Woodstock Theological Center.
Reese called the 300-page study "extraordinary and sophisticated," but he urged a closer look at the 149 priests identified as serial abusers.
(Additional reporting by Jonathan Allen; Editing by Xavier Briand)

I know this is AH and anything goes, but I'm really saddened about all the Catholic priest bashing and labeling them all as child abusers that goes on here.
Now I will be the first to point out that I am not the most religious person going, I'm a kind of an 'a la carte Catholic', I pick and choose what to believe. I haven't been to confession in twenty years and I'm not the biggest of mass goers around. I usually only pray when I'm looking for something but I do think about God quite often in the day. You get the picture.

According to this report published by Reuters, five percent of abusers are priests. FIVE!!! The way some talk on here, if you wear the collar you are automatically an abuser. It's very sad to think that people are living without God in their lives simply because of the actions of a mere five percent. Yes the cover up definitely comes into things, I'm not going to deny that. But I think people are denying themselves a wonderful faith and belief centered on the horror and suffering caused by a few and that is just letting those who abused continue.

Now do your worst :cool:

IM0

priest bashing

theres a joke in there somewhere

mahamageehad

Because 5% is too many! Any percent is too many! Thats why teachers and social workers are garda vetted! And people always tend to focus more on the negative than the positive, hence public worker bashing and garda bashing. I doubt you'll get anyone here to say all priests are paedos or evil but I think the majority that you ask will say enough of them were, and were allowed to do it for an extended period of time, to turn them off the religion, or to at least colour their opinions!

Plus there are other reasons people decide to live without god. Some of these being sex (premarital), homosexuality and simply being able to buy beer and eat meat on whatever day of the year they want!

Pottler

5% of sheep are err, white, but what % of badgers are yellow? (Better edit this as I've just bothered my a55 to read the above bumf properly and it appears I have grasped the sh1tty end of the stick once more, but it was the end I prefer, ie, all priests are dodgy, because they wanted to be priests when they were little..)) Steps away to clean sh1t from hand....

blatantrereg

Two priests were watching children leave a primary school.
"Wow - look at yer wan" said the first.
The second stared at him and said "That girl has got to be ten years old!"
The second looked back with a leer and said "Aye, she's the face of a ten year old, but she's the body of a six year old!"

Snowie

hairyprincess wrote: »

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/18/us-church-usa-abuse-idUSTRE74H6YA20110518



I know this is AH and anything goes, but I'm really saddened about all the Catholic priest bashing and labeling them all as child abusers that goes on here.
Now I will be the first to point out that I am not the most religious person going, I'm a kind of an 'a la carte Catholic', I pick and choose what to believe. I haven't been to confession in twenty years and I'm not the biggest of mass goers around. I usually only pray when I'm looking for something but I do think about God quite often in the day. You get the picture.

According to this report published by Reuters, five percent of abusers are priests. FIVE!!! The way some talk on here, if you wear the collar you are automatically an abuser. It's very sad to think that people are living without God in their lives simply because of the actions of a mere five percent. Yes the cover up definitely comes into things, I'm not going to deny that. But I think people are denying themselves a wonderful faith and belief centered on the horror and suffering caused by a few and that is just letting those who abused continue.

Now do your worst :cool:

id rather a stoning my self

Milk & Honey

hairyprincess wrote: »

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/18/us-church-usa-abuse-idUSTRE74H6YA20110518



I know this is AH and anything goes, but I'm really saddened about all the Catholic priest bashing and labeling them all as child abusers that goes on here.
Now I will be the first to point out that I am not the most religious person going, I'm a kind of an 'a la carte Catholic', I pick and choose what to believe. I haven't been to confession in twenty years and I'm not the biggest of mass goers around. I usually only pray when I'm looking for something but I do think about God quite often in the day. You get the picture.

According to this report published by Reuters, five percent of abusers are priests. FIVE!!! The way some talk on here, if you wear the collar you are automatically an abuser. It's very sad to think that people are living without God in their lives simply because of the actions of a mere five percent. Yes the cover up definitely comes into things, I'm not going to deny that. But I think people are denying themselves a wonderful faith and belief centered on the horror and suffering caused by a few and that is just letting those who abused continue.

Now do your worst :cool:

There are lies, damned lies and statistics!

token101

You'd have to wonder about the mentality of any man signing himself up to a life of celibacy. It's abnormal and unhealthy.

Spacedog

(Reuters) - A church-sponsored study...

Had that started with the phrase:

An independent study...

...it would be more credible. Organisation fund research so that there is an element bias in the result. if the report is favourable to the point of view intended (and paid for) then it is published. if the research is done honestly and a result negative is given, it can be withheld from publishing.

here's a link about pharma' that illustrates the point a lot better than I...
http://www.ted.com/talks/ben_goldacre_battling_bad_science.html

im invisible

I prefer to bash the bishop

super_furry

Church study finds Church not to blame!

The whole thing reads like something from The Onion.

blatantrereg

IM0 wrote: »

theres a joke in there somewhere

hm...yes....

im invisible wrote: »

I prefer to bash the bishop

There it is!

stimpson

Fr Ted said the same thing: "Say there are 100 million priests in the world and 10% are peadophiles. That's still only 10 million"

Of course the other 95% were turning a blind eye or moving them around. Plus the lay communitity which is still in denial. Jebus was pretty straightforward what should be done with them. A millstone and a lake is all that's needed.

strobe

hairyprincess wrote: »

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/18/us-church-usa-abuse-idUSTRE74H6YA20110518



I know this is AH and anything goes, but I'm really saddened about all the Catholic priest bashing and labeling them all as child abusers that goes on here.
Now I will be the first to point out that I am not the most religious person going, I'm a kind of an 'a la carte Catholic', I pick and choose what to believe. I haven't been to confession in twenty years and I'm not the biggest of mass goers around. I usually only pray when I'm looking for something but I do think about God quite often in the day. You get the picture.

According to this report published by Reuters, five percent of abusers are priests. FIVE!!! The way some talk on here, if you wear the collar you are automatically an abuser. It's very sad to think that people are living without God in their lives simply because of the actions of a mere five percent. Yes the cover up definitely comes into things, I'm not going to deny that. But I think people are denying themselves a wonderful faith and belief centered on the horror and suffering caused by a few and that is just letting those who abused continue.

Now do your worst :cool:

This whole post reads like some kind of high level satire.

But on the off chance you are serious, it is not 'simply' the fact that lots of priests were child molesters that is the problem but that the RCC knew they were and chose to cover it up from the top down to protect the molesters and their own reputation at the expense of the innocent victims.

hairyprincess

Spacedog wrote: »

Had that started with the phrase:



...it would be more credible. Organisation fund research so that there is an element bias in the result. if the report is favourable to the point of view intended (and paid for) then it is published. if the research is done honestly and a result negative is given, it can be withheld from publishing.

here's a link about pharma' that illustrates the point a lot better than I...
http://www.ted.com/talks/ben_goldacre_battling_bad_science.html

But is there really any such thing as an independent study? Anyone that is going to carry out research has some kind of an agenda, be it good or bad

joseph brand

hairyprincess wrote: »

I know this is AH and anything goes, but I'm really saddened about all the Catholic priest bashing and labeling them all as child abusers that goes on here.
Now I will be the first to point out that I am not the most religious person going, I'm a kind of an 'a la carte Catholic', I pick and choose what to believe. I haven't been to confession in twenty years and I'm not the biggest of mass goers around. I usually only pray when I'm looking for something but I do think about God quite often in the day. You get the picture.

According to this report published by Reuters, five percent of abusers are priests. FIVE!!! The way some talk on here, if you wear the collar you are automatically an abuser. It's very sad to think that people are living without God in their lives simply because of the actions of a mere five percent. Yes the cover up definitely comes into things, I'm not going to deny that. But I think people are denying themselves a wonderful faith and belief centered on the horror and suffering caused by a few and that is just letting those who abused continue.

Now do your worst :cool:

You're either a 'believer' or you're not. There's no middle ground. Seems like you're as much a catholic as anyone else.

About this 5% stuff. The big problem we have with priests and the church, is that they all know something. They're either child rapists or, they help hide the rapists. Bishops, cardinals and even the current pope are accused of moving the filthy child rapists from parish to parish. There's also the fact they have their own canon law. The Vatican is a sovereign state which cannot be investigated. They get tax breaks similar to charities, even for businesses run from church property.

They're like the Mafia, only worse. Even the Nazi's didn't last as long as those child-beating nuns.

Eramen

What I find surprising (but not really) is that people are quick to speak out against the church, which is very fair of course, but say nothing about the current bastion of pedophilia and child abuse: governments and their institutions (including ours).

Anyone who speaks of one and not the other is a god-damn hypocrite.

But I guess the bandwagon is only big enough for one or the other?

joseph brand

Eramen wrote: »

What I find surprising (but not really) is that people are quick to speak out against the church, which is very fair of course, but say nothing about the current bastion of pedophilia and child abuse: governments and their institutions (including ours).

Anyone who speaks of one and not the other is a god-damn hypocrite.

But I guess the bandwagon is only big enough for one or the other?

Care to expand please?

Latchy

token101 wrote: »

You'd have to wonder about the mentality of any man signing himself up to a life of celibacy. It's abnormal and unhealthy.

I don't believe they all get the call from God either.

You'll also find any institution or organisation that has regular contact with children to have a % of it's employees abuse children including social workers and teachers .

DeVore

Its always something else, its never them is it... its never them.

bleg

Priests and the Catholic church get bashed because they deserve it. They are members of a disgusting homophobic and sexist organisation that has corrupted the minds of billions of people.

**** them.

Paparazzo

In the past half-century, the report said nearly 6,000 priests were accused of abuse, or about 5 percent of total serving priests.

Am I the only person that thinks that's really high?

Hairyprincess, 3 million adults in ireland, do you think having 150,000 pedophile in ireland is a bit much? That's 5%. If it was that high I really would be frightened of letting my kids out. Around one teacher per school.
And that's only reported cases. How many people suffer sexual abuse and don't even report it? And on average, for every pedo priest, how many other priests know or have an idea what he's up to?
5% is massively high imho

Spacedog

hairyprincess wrote: »

But is there really any such thing as an independent study? Anyone that is going to carry out research has some kind of an agenda, be it good or bad

You didn't watch the video link did you? you responded in a shorter amount of time than the video takes to play.

KeithAFC

DeVore wrote: »

Its always something else, it never them is it... its never them.

That is a very good point DeVore. That is just the attitude we need from DeVore. This could be a vital contribution to this thread over the next few days.

token101

Paparazzo wrote: »

Am I the only person that thinks that's really high?

Hairyprincess, 3 million adults in ireland, do you think having 150,000 pedophile in ireland is a bit much? That's 5%. If it was that high I really would be frightened of letting my kids out. Around one teacher per school.
And that's only reported cases. How many people suffer sexual abuse and don't even report it? And on average, for every pedo priest, how many other priests know or have an idea what he's up to?
5% is massively high imho

Well 5% would be 1 in 20, so you're talking a paedophile in every 2/3 parishes? That's fairly terrifying! I'm going to build a dungeon for my kids so the never leave.

Regards,
Joseph

token101

Latchy wrote: »

I don't believe they all get the call from God either.

You'll also find any institution or organisation that has regular contact with children to have a % of it's employees abuse children including social workers and teachers .

Probably. But I wouldn't imagine it's anywhere near the levels in the RCC. If you can find evidence as to otherwise, I'm open to be proven wrong. It's abnormal to voluntarily sign up for a sexless life. Procreation is kind of the point of humanity. A gift from God they call it. But God's chosen ones can't have a gift? Bizarre.

Dudess

There will always be people who blame all members of an organisation for the wrongdoings of some.

problemchimp

mahamageehad wrote: »

Because 5% is too many! Any percent is too many! Thats why teachers and social workers are garda vetted! And people always tend to focus more on the negative than the positive, hence public worker bashing and garda bashing. I doubt you'll get anyone here to say all priests are paedos or evil but I think the majority that you ask will say enough of them were, and were allowed to do it for an extended period of time, to turn them off the religion, or to at least colour their opinions!

Plus there are other reasons people decide to live without god. Some of these being sex (premarital), homosexuality and simply being able to buy beer and eat meat on whatever day of the year they want!

Putting homosexuality and eating meat in the same sentence is unsettling.

joseph brand

token101 wrote: »

Well 5% would be 1 in 20, so you're talking a paedophile in every 2/3 parishes? That's fairly terrifying! I'm going to build a dungeon for my kids so the never leave.

Regards,
Joseph

Remember. This 5% doesn't include all the priests who haven't been caught. It's almost as if people think that all the rapists have been caught. I bet there's victims who have committed suicide and took their rape to the grave. Others are silent, afraid.

I hate to think of what the filthy priests can get away with in third world countries. Where they walk about as gods, in collars.

joseph brand

problemchimp wrote: »

Putting homosexuality and eating meat and two veg in the same sentence is unsettling.

fyp :pac:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-rt_aYzUagpM/TiUze8ENIQI/AAAAAAAABYE/Q8HmefUrv0s/s1600/MeatTwoVeg.jpg

lividduck

Ze Furher Strumbanfurher Ratzinger (retired) has spoken, zer vill be no furzer zebate!

forfuxsake

I have to say 5% is incredibly high.

To give some idea of high it is:

If it were teachers, it would represent 2750. (5% of approx. 55,000 primary and secondary teachers in the ROI)

Now if we knew there were approx 110 paedophile teachers on average per county, we would close the fcuking schools.

Seriously, would you send your child to school if you knew there were 110 paedophile child rapin' cnuts in your county's schools?

No you wouldn't.

But you send them to church.

I have an idea. Don't. And if you meet your maker and HE ask you why?

Say 'Because at least 5% of them are fcukin child rapin' cnuts.'

5% - I realistically would have thought it was less than 1%, Thanks for the info.

Socialist_Pig

Dudess wrote: »

There will always be people who blame all members of an organisation for the wrongdoings of some.

in fairness any organisation that faciltated child abuse would be disbanded and reformed as something new....the amount of abuse carried out by the church in the west were people do have access to police,civil liberty groups and many other organisations looking after children is shocking...

I always wonder how the church behaved in 3rd world countries and continents like africa and south america...I'd bet a weeks wages the way they behaved there is worse than anything we have have uncovered here in the 1st world

Dudess

What about the priest who did that long walk in protest, or the priest in the other thread who's being investigated for liberal views? Seems only fair that the individual be considered.

Eramen wrote: »

What I find surprising (but not really) is that people are quick to speak out against the church, which is very fair of course, but say nothing about the current bastion of pedophilia and child abuse: governments and their institutions (including ours).

Anyone who speaks of one and not the other is a god-damn hypocrite.

But I guess the bandwagon is only big enough for one or the other?

But you're pretending that what you're talking about is well known?

DeVore

I blame the organisation for the wrong doings of the organisation. Specifically, hiding evidence, obstructing investigation, failing to protect kids they knew were at risk, enabling abusers by turning a blind and moving them on to unsuspecting green pastures.

Thats what I blame the organisation for.

Temptamperu

Even 0.5% of priests being Child Molesters is too many.

Dudess

DeVore wrote: »

I blame the organisation for the wrong doings of the organisation. Specifically, hiding evidence, obstructing investigation, failing to protect kids they knew were at risk, enabling abusers by turning a blind and moving them on to unsuspecting green pastures.

Thats what I blame the organisation for.

An understandable viewpoint, but I thought this was about individual priests being met with hostility?

Temptamperu

Dudess wrote: »

An understandable viewpoint, but I thought this was about individual priests being met with hostility?

They are all complicit if the organisation is hiding evidence and obstruction.

Latchy

token101 wrote: »

Probably. But I wouldn't imagine it's anywhere near the levels in the RCC. If you can find evidence as to otherwise, I'm open to be proven wrong. It's abnormal to voluntarily sign up for a sexless life. Procreation is kind of the point of humanity. A gift from God they call it. But God's chosen ones can't have a gift? Bizarre.

Exactly my point and not at the levels of RCC but just as that institution wasn't regulated and under as much scruitny ,neither were care homes and orphanages .You still have people who refuse to believe that the attraction for some to the priesthood is knowing that at some stage they will come into close personell contact with children and no , they are not gods choosen people ,no more than anybody else on this earth .

Dudess

Temptamperu wrote: »

Dudess wrote: »

An understandable viewpoint, but I thought this was about individual priests being met with hostility?

They are all complicit if the organisation is hiding evidence and obstruction.

I must tell that to my uncle who's a priest down in Kerry.

marty1985

I still have a lot of respect for anyone in this day and age who would enter the priesthood if they feel it's their vocation.

People will say "if you go to mass you're supporting a criminal organisation". Fair enough. But it's disingenuous to think it's not central to the faith, so it becomes a form of bigotry, simple anti-Catholicism ("the thinking man's anti-Semitism"). So anything to do with practicing the faith, in the eyes of some, makes you guilty by association.

Some people use the "organisation" as an excuse to bash the faith of individuals and priests. That's the difference with Catholicism. It's a bigot's dream. Boards has its fair share of bigots and bigots never realise they're bigots.

Temptamperu

Dudess wrote: »

I must tell that to my uncle who's a priest down in Kerry.

Good for him. Has he ever spoke out about child molester's of the cloth or does he just ignore this organisations history of abuse?

Dudess

Temptamperu wrote: »

Dudess wrote: »

I must tell that to my uncle who's a priest down in Kerry.

Good for him. Has he ever spoke out about child molester's of the cloth or does he just ignore this organisations history of abuse?

False dichotomy - can it only be either/or?
He does the work he's expected to do in his parish and he condemns those who abused.

DeVore

Dudess wrote: »

There will always be people who blame all members of an organisation for the wrongdoings of some.

Dudess wrote: »

An understandable viewpoint, but I thought this was about individual priests being met with hostility?

You were the first to bring the organisation into it Dudess. I'm just answering your point.

marty1985

I would actually think some people would be surprised at the figure 5%. A lot of people would think it's a lot more.

I feel sorry for a lot of priests on a human level, and the mob mentality on The Journal and Boards (albeit to a lesser extent) makes me a bit nervous. The church are an evil, secretive, power-mad, money-hungry organisation, or so everyone thinks, and are still oppressing us in terrible ways. As an aside, a recent atheist rally in Washington (no doubt trying to evoke memories of the oppressed blacks of the civil rights movement) drove home the importance of not tolerating their beliefs and the importance of ridiculing them. In a true homage to the prophetic language of MLK, leading an oppressed people, Tim Minchin led them in a chorus of F*ck The Motherf*cking Pope. A sign read Too Many Christians, Not Enough Lions.

The problem is, the Pope is a living symbol of the faith of a lot of people. The organisation is inseparable from the faith. So, unrestrained attacks on the organisation spill over into troubling hatred of ordinary Catholics, ordinary priests.

I think it should be something of deep concern to fair minded people.

What a lot of people here do, is demonise the priests.

Which is ironic. We had enough demonising in 1950s Ireland. Our smug enlightened self image hides a lot of bad things that haven't gone away.

Dudess

DeVore wrote: »

Dudess wrote: »

There will always be people who blame all members of an organisation for the wrongdoings of some.

Dudess wrote: »

An understandable viewpoint, but I thought this was about individual priests being met with hostility?

You were the first to bring the organisation into it Dudess. I'm just answering your point.

That's not what I meant though.

Jay D

Maybe it's actually because people are cowards mostly. Would they be as outspoken against a contract killer, gangster or other similar character?

No they wouldn't.

Priests are by far mostly good people and because of their peaceful nature pose little threat to the mouth pieces of society.

RiseToTheTop

They should do a survey on atheists.

"97.5% of atheists flaming that 84% of Ireland is Catholic."