Extreme Combat Ireland Krav Maga: Carlow .... One Day Seminar

Doug Cartel

bushi wrote: »

lol, close air support, in military unarmed hand combat?? hmmm, you are really trying very hard to make case here?

How do you think military encounters work? Do you think that they guys just run in unprepared and have a fist fight? They operate in squads and they are heavily armed. They are mainly trained to work as a team operate their rifles. They usually have support if required. A small part of their training, a very small part, goes into dealing with the situation where they need to retain their weapon or if they somehow become unarmed. Really though, in the situation where they become unarmed the main thing they can do is to make peace with whatever deity they believe in.

There are a few soldiers who post here, at least one who has trained in Isreal. They don't rate military hand to hand training at all, and they especially don't think much of KM.

why my humble person is being called into focus again?

Because if you are not in the military it is unlikely you will find yourself in a situation where you need military training.

...to gain advantage, over non-military, non-lethal training?

What demonstrable advantage? Not a hypothetical, an actual real advantage applicable to a normal person on the street.

(i.e., if I had a dollar for every time I've heard, that "it is best to take the fight to the ground, because.... blahblahblah"... OR a quarter every time I've heard that you need to stare your opponent down intensely, to read him (all the time, missing all other possible threats that MIGHT be surrounding you).

Would you even get the price of a cup of coffee out of these dollars and quarters? How many times have you really heard this?

bushi

Doug Cartel wrote: »

..., but there is a prominent Krav Maga group operating in Ireland that offer 12 hour courses that are advertised with an implication that at the end of the course you will be prepared to defend yourself on the street. Not 12 months of training, 12 hours.

LOL, that's obviously hilarious - that would explain a lot of scathing comments indeed! Thanks for explanation , and I can fully appreciate the "false sense of security" comments here, in this light! Well that would also explain another thing - if someone sells bull****, he is a bull****ter more likely than not, and that would also explain poor training results, as referred by others here. Now it starts to make more sense to me, thanks.

AS for military encounters - of course, I realise that close, unarmed combat, is just the (very small, and not substantial for them) part of training, only resorted to on very rare occassions - BUT here's the thing, when it comes to that, they want to walk away ALIVE, with their opponent(s) DISABLED, they assume you will be attacked by surprise, overwhelmed, outnumbered, possibly injured in intial scramble - but your goal is to get away alive, and that's the whole, only and single goal & focus (and that I personally find worth training for). Secondly, because it is only PART of their training, it has to be simple, instinctive, and work in an unplanned situation. Or, in a situation, where you are attacked, without being properly equipped. For example, there are many cases of Israeli soldiers, who have been attemted to/kidnapped (later to be murdered), while not in their units/ on vacations etc. For those who survived, they tell the tale "what works", what doesnt, it really is that simple for me.

What demonstrable advantage? Not a hypothetical, an actual real advantage applicable to a normal person on the street.

like not picking habits, that would be clearly to your disadvantage in some, very possible (and most dangerous) scenarios, like I explained few posts above - is that enough? Like picking up habits, that would be to your advantage, from get go (like checking out surroundings constantly, like training on the staircases, inside the train carriage, inside a bus, like assuming in every fight that you are fighting agains multiple opponents, like training with one hand tied to your body (simulating injury in the initial stages of fight), like training with your eyes blind folded (simulating fighting in the dark, or with injury/pepperspray/sand in your eyes)). Like MENTAL preparedness, visualizing yourself being cut with knife, visualising the pain, the blood, the shock, and getting mentally ready to how fecking different all of it suddenly becomes, if that happens to you? Like playing yourself down, trying to avoid confrontation (which apart of possibly diffusing the conflict, realy helps to lull your opponents into a false sense of power over you), and then bursting 0-60MPH in zero seconds time, to finish things off by surprise (hardly possible, in ANY competitive MA, thus hardly practiced at all). You know, things like that, that SOMEDAY, might save your life, and hopefully, you'd never need to use them.
I don't know if you consider all of the above as real, or purely hypothetical? But if these ARE hypothetical, than I assume all our discussion is purely academic, because in such case, only being hardcore hooligan, or a street thug, gives you any chance of getting some "real" training.

Would you even get the price of a cup of coffee out of these dollars and quarters? How many times have you really heard this?

...thinking about that, that would be at least a million (if not 1.5 million). But that's rather irrelevant for the discussion at hand, why don't focus on the matter, instead of my figures of speech (you skipped all that really mattered in the above paragraph, and focused on my writing style/hyperbole instead - if you haven't noticed)

peace

Dermighty

paxo wrote: »

For me the main difference is that MMA fighters get to test their abilities through sparing and contests. KM students will not know for sure if their training works until they are unlucky enough to find themselves a victim of an assault.

If you're not practising the moves against a resisting opponent then the training is a waste of time.

Unless you're practising a move on someone who doesn't want you to do that move on them then what's the point?

Example using BJJ: Trying to throw a complacent partner is like throwing an inanimate object, trying to get the timing to throw someone who wants you to throw you or avoid getting thrown is another matter entirely, one that can only be resolved through sparring and drilling.

Having done a not too dissimilar martial art (Keysi Fighting Method) I realised that the method of training is what makes something effective. In KFM we drilled moves and practised them against resisting opponents. It wasn't fully possible to openly spar KFM though as many of the seemingly most effective moves used are not easily replicated in a sparring environment (same as Krav Maga), by this I mean things like headbutts etc. So we had to practise many of them with restraint, which goes against the whole point of learning to defend yourself. I didn't always think this way.

As a side note I'm a bouncer and in my experience Krav Maga is overly complicated and unnecessary. 100% of people I've had to fight or restrain do the same **** when they are fighting or resisting restraint. This usually looks something like head down throwing punches or just simply trying to do the opposite of what you want them to do, ie: trying to lie down when you want them to lean against a wall etc. Even people with MMA training (albeit not very good MMA fighters) still just planted their feet and windmilled.



TL;DR

Direct quotation from the Krav Maga Ireland website:

Krav Maga Ireland Website wrote:

Unliike traditional Martial Arts which require years of training Krav Maga is based on Instinctive Body Reactions, the moves you will do under stress without thinking!

:rolleyes:

ArtyBoy

bushi wrote: »

Ad1, ok, let's assume that all the KM classes are as ****ty as the ones that you have seen, and say you are right, because no one practices kM with the proper, realistic intensity

Ad2, he is "at liberty" to do something, that he hasn't really practiced on the mat, vs. Being taught from GET GO, to do what your guy is "at liberty" to modify his training routine to (I guess it doesn't go against your argument from pt. 1, about "practising something at full speed full force on resisting opponent", I guess it only applies to KM)

Ad3, yep, because special forces hand combat instructors around the world, are not doing that **** to make a living (often, with their own, or their students' life at stakes), they are "dreaming that stuff up". In garages. Yes, that's exactly what they do, therefore coming up with nonsense systems like KM. There's no analysing of operations after teams armed interventions, no CCTV analysing, to check what worked and what didn't, no biomechanics analysts, coming up with most efficient extensions of natural body reactions to various attacks, no physical and mental conditioning, all that is, is a bunch of dreamers, trying to be "different". These silly spec ops!

Thanks for explaining,
Regards

Ps. Btw, someone above put the argument, that even instructors are not punching well - using open hand (actually, I think he meant base of hand). This is actually very recent development, introduced maybe 6-7 years ago, specifically for civilian version (assuming people being trained are not advanced Martial Artists). Reason - this kind of strike is less prone to injury, and almost as effective, as fist strike, also depending on the target, opens further opportunities to follow through with grabbing, our beaten to death eye gouging etc. Some dreamer came up with that in his garage, because he was bored to death, with people using their fists and injuring their wrists/fingers, lol

I don't think you really know what you're talking about at all, even in regard to KM although I have no doubt you are an instructor in KM.

I was thought the open hand strikes by Swedish special forces whilst on an overseas trip with the Irish Army. So your claim that the open hand strike is new or only for civilians is simply not true.

The technique used in KM such as kicking, elbowing and striking with the hands is very poor, generally.
The reason for this is mostly down to the system itself.
For instance, when I first started boxing, before we even learned how to throw a punch we spent weeks learning how to stand and move properly and hold our hands up using the correct techniques only after this was perfected could we then move on to the basic punching drills, jabs, 'one two's' hooks, upper cuts, we spent weeks drilling these basics before we could even attempt to put them into usable combinations.

Even with all of the time and coaching for a few months, there were still some guys who just couldn't master some of the boxing techniques, many times we were advised to practice boxing outside of class at home in a mirror in order to try to perfect the techniques.

Now add in elbows, knees and kicks all of which take a long time to gain proficiency in. Kicking for instance is not just a matter of swinging your leg out there and hoping for the best, it takes months and years to condition your legs through stretching and kicking bags before you could kick with accuracy and power consistently, yet you claim that with a few months of KM training average Joe with no previous training can master punching, kicking, elbow strikes, knee strikes and grappling to a proficient level?

And I haven't even started to talk about the skill needed to combine all of these strikes together or how long it takes to grasp the basics of grappling.

KM in my opinion is not totally useless, it is better to know KM than nothing but in my opinion it is far more beneficial and cheaper to study MMA/BJJ, Judo or Kickboxing.

bushi

ArtyBoy wrote: »

I don't think you really know what you're talking about at all, even in regard to KM

...perhaps you are right, I'll not discuss that, but that's yet another poor ad hominem "argument", so perhaps you could just as well skip it??

although I have no doubt you are an instructor in KM.

I value internet discussions for their anonymity - since people have no freaking idea, who they are talking to, it forces them (kind of) to focus on the arguments, instead of resorting ad nausea to personal "arguments", or trying to sort out who has the "authority", to tell the others how things "are". Again, how my humble person is relevant here?
But I see no harm in disclosing, that I am merely former practitioner, who started skipping exams at P5 level (because of possible legal complications in my country, if I went above P5, and injured someone in a fight, this would be to my disadvantage, if case went to court. And I like to keep odds in my favor, anytime).

I was thought the open hand strikes by Swedish special forces whilst on an overseas trip with the Irish Army. So your claim that the open hand strike is new or only for civilians is simply not true.

...was it in the last 6-7 years timeframe? because to my knowledge, that's when it was introduced, and it was introduced for a reason, and the reasons were given in my post you are quoting. I might remember incorrectly if it was ONLY for civilian use, actually it kinda makes sense for military even more, if you consider they might potentially striking someone in full gear.

The technique used in KM such as kicking, elbowing and striking with the hands is very poor, generally.
The reason for this is mostly down to the system itself.

yes that's correct, and there's a reason for it again, and the reason is: as mentioned before, by someone else, when adrenaline is pumping, and you are pressed to your mental limits, it takes a mastery (or at least high proficiency), to implement precise, technical moves. If one is able to do that, kudos, if one doesn't think he will be able to devote enough time & focus to master it, yet still increase his chances in confrontation - I say KM is for him.

For instance, when I first started boxing, before we even learned how to throw a punch we spent weeks learning how to stand and move properly and hold our hands up using the correct techniques only after this was perfected could we then move on to the basic punching drills, jabs, 'one two's' hooks, upper cuts, we spent weeks drilling these basics before we could even attempt to put them into usable combinations.

Even with all of the time and coaching for a few months, there were still some guys who just couldn't master some of the boxing techniques, many times we were advised to practice boxing outside of class at home in a mirror in order to try to perfect the techniques.

...but, but... that's exactly my point. In these few months, if you were doing KM instead, I'd put my money (without a shadow of a doubt) on yourself doing KM, versus yourself doing boxing. And even more so, if two bullying scumbags have approached one of your alternative selves in a dark alley.

Now add in elbows, knees and kicks all of which take a long time to gain proficiency in. Kicking for instance is not just a matter of swinging your leg out there and hoping for the best, it takes months and years to condition your legs through stretching and kicking bags before you could kick with accuracy and power consistently,

first, that's why KM only incorporates kicks that are relatively easy to apply, without training preparation that other kicking styles require; like knee to the groin, like front kick to the groin, like front kick to a knee, like side kicks to the knee (kind of), like trampling on opponent's feet. That would be really most of it, that I can think of right away. Not so coincidentally, I think, these are similar to traditional ju-jitsu, which was also similarly rooted on a battlefield, and not in competitions/tournaments. Legs are for keeping you upright in the fight, you know, and especially, when you assume at all times, that you might be facing > 1 opponent.

yet you claim that with a few months of KM training average Joe with no previous training can master punching, kicking, elbow strikes, knee strikes and grappling to a proficient level?

..really, am I? Quote, please... Perhaps you meant "reasonably usable level, especially when combined with surprise (counter)attack, aggression, determination and chaining all them piss-poor technical quality attacks into one continuous massage, trying to land each and every one of them on some vital point"? Then yes, I'd say so, if someone is not mentally disabled for fights (some people are), than I think he'd be able to use, say, six months of somehow-dedicated KM training for a successful surprise attack on an average bully/attacker, if he/she doesn't have any other choice - allowing him/her to escape, or perhaps neutralize the threat. Pending good instructor, pending this, pending that, and you know, all the usual disclaimers and small prints.

And I haven't even started to talk about the skill needed to combine all of these strikes together or how long it takes to grasp the basics of grappling.

..yeah, and after you spend all these years, perfecting all that stuff, you finally enter the cage, to face similarly prepared, 100% ready for you opponent, and then suddenly, in nine cases out of ten - we can see that all that fine-honed technique goes through the window, becomes suddenly piss-poor, and aggression, determination, strength, conditioning & individual abilities like timing & speed, are winning the fight more often, than not - unless there's GREAT disparity of technical skills between the fighters (and I am not trying to bash individual technical abilities of fighters, I'd be an idiot to say so - but the reality looks we all know how, and it is not finest technicians, who win most often).

I have no problems with people doing that, opposite, loads of respect, and I know all of us would aspire to such levels (and perhaps some of my adversaries here ARE on such levels - and I mean it), but honestly, what's the percentage of people, who will be able to get there?

For all the others, I believe KM will serve them BETTER - because it skips a lot of the "fine-honing" altogether (while the instructors I was working under, would never discourage anyone from improving his chances, by complimenting his training with strength & conditioning, boxing, or some other martial art - with the exception of styles that go to the ground as a principle, such as BJJ, because this is really against basic principles of KM (reasons - given previously). But the training will focus on surprise, speed, aggression, determination, domination etc., and chaining it all with ugly, but simple to apply combinations. Even if you do it in a piss-poor technical way that's OK -and there's a big chance, that you'd be doing that in a piss-poor way anyway, even if your style wasn't KM, and the only reason was adrenaline, surprise, fear etc. So why waste training time, fighting the natural reactions, when it will take you good few years, to overcome them in a practical situation. Oh and BTW, if you stay around for longer, well, KM will let you overcome your natural (over)reactions just as well (with the exceptions of competitions, which I do agree, are a great training method, to get you some adrenaline pumping. But there are other methods that work - like facing three, more advanced students, who will try maybe not too hard, but hard enough, to give you a hard & very uncomfortable time)

KM in my opinion is not totally useless, it is better to know KM than nothing but in my opinion it is far more beneficial and cheaper to study MMA/BJJ, Judo or Kickboxing.

...cheaper it most certainly is, actually the marketing part of KM is one of it's major annoyances for me - indeed, it puts off people who are proficient with other MAs, and cannot stomach that marketing shall be just ignored, period, regardless if it applies to washing powder, or MA, and also it often attracts some specific kind of folks, like also said here before, with insecurities, and not really determined to get to that "upper level". Which makes poor training partners. So it all really depends on your instructor, and what kind of folk he'll gather around him.

If other MAs mentioned above are better - IMHO, depends on your goals and reasons you want to do them, like I said already

regards,

smacl

bushi wrote: »

Even if you do it in a piss-poor technical way that's OK -and there's a big chance, that you'd be doing that in a piss-poor way anyway, even if your style wasn't KM, and the only reason was adrenaline, surprise, fear etc. So why waste training time, fighting the natural reactions, when it will take you good few years, to overcome them in a practical situation.

Apart from competition, one of the reasons any practical style does a lot of sparring is to de-sensitize you to getting hit / grabbed / etc... such that you don't do things in a piss poor way in a conflict situation. Martial artists that are used to getting roughed up as part of their training tend to be able think more clearly while fighting and execute good technique under pressure, which is really the point of training such a martial art in the first place. Learning to get rid of the fear, perform under pressure, and relax while fighting is something that gets taught from day one in most practical styles, as it is a key part of effective sparring and fighting as well as competing. Similarly, conditioning is not an optional extra. Getting strong and fit is something anybody can do reasonably quickly, and while comparatively boring, can often help overcome a more technically proficient opponent.

It doesn't take years, six months of focussed work in a decent martial arts or boxing gym with a good instructor will have most people able to fight competently. It does take a lot of hard work, commitment, and a fair number of knocks, which can't be bought. IMHO, there are no short cuts.

bushi

OK, so am I missing something, or is KM in this time and place being taught in a contact-less way (because it is not what I was doing back then, back there). We have been massaging each other all right in our classes, mouthpiece and groin protection were a MUST (and even with them, you'd end up in a fetal position clutching you most precious external organs from time to time, if someone got too carried away, or just slipped a knee or a kick a bit too far, too strong), shin protectors were maybe not a MUST, but very very welcomed and you'd be sorely missing them, if you forgot to pack them. And our instructor also made sure that every now and again, each of us felt what "choking" means, and how to try & escape it, and that it is quite different from someone just putting his hands on or around your neck. Gloves were sometimes used, in practicing full-on blasts and exchanges, but sparingly, as neither you nor your opponent would wear them outside.

Every start of the training season, you'd be rather a wreck of a person (in advanced group), for the first few weeks, and think more than once that perhaps you'd be better off maybe taking your chance and skipping the classes, because it cannot be that much worse, just getting killed in the street someday

So therefore I am not considering that as "cheating" or taking shortcuts, really - just different training approach, and different goals to competitive kind of martial arts.

Yeah, you'd learn to relax a bit under pressure as well with time, when your proficiency/self confidence/technique increases (as everywhere else). Still hard to be relaxed if the situation happens to be one of those, where your goal is to keep your life (not your ego) in one piece. Unless you happen to be Miyagi san, of course.

smacl

bushi wrote: »

OK, so am I missing something, or is KM in this time and place being taught in a contact-less way

No idea, never tried KM. My post was in reference to your comments about other martial arts, and the notion that they become piss poor when faced with an aggressive opponent in a conflict situation. I would seriously doubt this is the case for anyone used to full contact training.

Yeah, you'd learn to relax a bit under pressure as well with time, when your proficiency/self confidence/technique increases (as everywhere else). Still hard to be relaxed if the situation happens to be one of those, where your goal is to keep your life (not your ego) in one piece. Unless you are Miyagi san, of course.

I don't believe that many people practising martial arts are in life threatening situations all that often. I do think some less scrupulous martial arts organisations peddle their wares based on fear and hyping up a relatively few exceptional cases that pop up in the media every now and again. You see a fair number of scuffles around the town at chucking out time, but people aren't dying in their droves just yet. IMHO, in terms of getting into an altercation on the street, keeping a level head is far cleverer than going mental aggressive.

My experience has been that you can teach people to relax under pressure quite quickly by keeping them sparring passed the point where they're already tired. In a given class, we'd leave one person on the mats for up to half an hour taking on everyone else one by one. The fear and adrenaline evaporate quite quickly under these conditions, and relaxing is the only way to stave off exhaustion.

bushi

smacl wrote: »

No idea, never tried KM. My post was in reference to your comments about other martial arts, and the notion that they become piss poor when faced with an aggressive opponent in a conflict situation. I would seriously doubt this is the case for anyone used to full contact training.

eh, there's always a way to offend someone... no offence meant, but even watch UFC or Pride, and topmost guys in the world, in the heat of the battle, are not a show of a pure technical form. Much less so, any other guy.

I don't believe that many people practicing martial arts are in life threatening situations all that often. I do think some less scrupulous martial arts organisations peddle their wares based on fear and hyping up a relatively few exceptional cases that pop up in the media every now and again. You see a fair number of scuffles around the town at chucking out time, but people aren't dying in their droves just yet. IMHO, in terms of getting into an altercation on the street, keeping a level head is far cleverer than going mental aggressive.

...if the situation is one of those, where you can keep your level head, than more likely than not, you'll get away without even fighting, if you keep your cool. What is the point of fighting, if you can avoid it? Sure that doesn't happen often, that your life would be in danger, but if I practice, I do it for that one unlikely, but possible scenario. Fight is the ultimate resolution, when all other fails. I am not doing that to make my (regrettably small) frankfurter bigger. And in such case, I won't be looking to look pretty or keeping cool or win medals, but to get away on my own two legs. That's just me, and Your Mileage May Vary, and I am not saying which is the one and only right way - I just have my reasons behind my way, and authoritative claims that it is rubbish, are pushing my buttons

My experience has been that you can teach people to relax under pressure quite quickly by keeping them sparring passed the point where they're already tired. In a given class, we'd leave one person on the mats for up to half an hour taking on everyone else one by one. The fear and adrenaline evaporate quite quickly under these conditions, and relaxing is the only way to stave off exhaustion.

I doubt very much it is the same to being cornered in a dark alley, and despite keeping your cool, seeing that the situation is going to escalate into a fight. I'd say it is rather different, and I'd also say, to keep your cool in such case, when such fight eventually breaks - takes years, not months of practice, in any MA. Adrenaline does NOT evaporate just like that, when it kicks in. The training will help you to prevent it from kicking in (you just don't feel threatened, and the better you get, the more dangerous situations will not trigger your body's "fight or fly" mechanisms), but if/when it kicks in, there's very little you can do, in the short time span you'll be given to resolve situation, to overcome physiology and somehow, avoid the effects of it.

My humble opinion (and some very little science)

Dermighty

The reason boxing and bjj and all the others are good for self defense isn't because you can pull off a flying triangle on someone who wants to fight you, it's because you train against someone who wants to beat you, you are getting pushed and pulled and smashed and punched in the face in the case of boxing. Feeling more comfortable in that situation is what leads to successful self defense, not being overly technical. In all but a few of the fights I've seen working as a bouncer the technicality goes out the window and it resorts to one of two methods of fighting, grab the person and keep them close or plant your feet and punch.

bushi

Dermighty wrote: »

The reason boxing and bjj and all the others are good for self defense isn't because you can pull off a flying triangle on someone who wants to fight you, it's because you train against someone who wants to beat you, you are getting pushed and pulled and smashed and punched in the face in the case of boxing. Feeling more comfortable in that situation is what leads to successful self defense, not being overly technical. In all but a few of the fights I've seen working as a bouncer the technicality goes out the window and it resorts to one of two methods of fighting, grab the person and keep them close or plant your feet and punch.

cannot say I disagree with anything you said, with the exception of BJJ, in the general self defense case (can't see anyone being too successful huggin one opponent on the ground, while his friend(s) are jumping on his head). But I have never look too deep into BJJ, so maybe I am wrong, and there is some good strategy there against multiple attackers.

ArtyBoy

bushi wrote: »

eh, there's always a way to offend someone... no offence meant, but even watch UFC or Pride, and topmost guys in the world, in the heat of the battle, are not a show of a pure technical form. Much less so, any other guy.


...if the situation is one of those, where you can keep your level head, than more likely than not, you'll get away without even fighting, if you keep your cool. What is the point of fighting, if you can avoid it? Sure that doesn't happen often, that your life would be in danger, but if I practice, I do it for that one unlikely, but possible scenario. Fight is the ultimate resolution, when all other fails. I am not doing that to make my (regrettably small) frankfurter bigger. And in such case, I won't be looking to look pretty or keeping cool or win medals, but to get away on my own two legs. That's just me, and Your Mileage May Vary, and I am not saying which is the one and only right way - I just have my reasons behind my way, and authoritative claims that it is rubbish, are pushing my buttons


I doubt very much it is the same to being cornered in a dark alley, and despite keeping your cool, seeing that the situation is going to escalate into a fight. I'd say it is rather different, and I'd also say, to keep your cool in such case, when such fight eventually breaks - takes years, not months of practice, in any MA. Adrenaline does NOT evaporate just like that, when it kicks in. The training will help you to prevent it from kicking in (you just don't feel threatened, and the better you get, the more dangerous situations will not trigger your body's "fight or fly" mechanisms), but if/when it kicks in, there's very little you can do, in the short time span you'll be given to resolve situation, to overcome physiology and somehow, avoid the effects of it.

My humble opinion (and some very little science)

Your whole premise about two professional mix martial artists fighting is nonsensical and irrelevant.

When you put two professional fighters with similar levels of skill and athleticism in a cage to fight of course not all the techniques used are going to be smooth, the reason being that the fighters will also know defensive techniques that make it very hard to use smooth technique, do you really think a KM practitioner would just smoothly apply technique against a well trained professional MMA fighter? I doubt it.

Also, if you had any real life experience with fighting, as in street fights or doing door work you would realise that the human body has an amazing ability to adapt to situations we commonly find ourselves in.

Example, The adrenaline dump you get as you step into the ring to fight can either help you or go against you, in order for it to help you, you have to learn to control it, this can only be done through putting yourself into confrontational situations regularly such as live sparring against an opponent who is fighting back just as hard. Through the repetition of this act you will become desensitised to fighting and as a result you will be able to remain calm under pressure.

I remember when I first began doing the doors, for the first few months, every time there was a confrontation at the door or someone began to go off on an aggressive rant directed at me, telling me what they were going to do to me etc. I felt an uncontrollable adrenalin dump, the result of this was that I felt like I was losing control of my body, it began to shake at least I felt I began to shake as the adrenalin was rushing through my body preparing me for the inevitable fight that was coming, I had to fight against every instinct in my body that was telling me to run instead I stood firm and tried my best to control any display of emotion on my face, this was very difficult even though i knew I had 5 to 7 fellow door men to back me up.

Over a number of months and having been through literally hundreds of these confrontations I began to learn how to control the adrenalin dump through breathing a certain way and over the years I became completely desensitised to confrontation and fighting to the point were I could calmly approach a gang of guys in a pub or club on my own with full confidence in my ability to control the situation if it got out of hand, this confidence exudes from you once you have it, it is not ego or cockyness, but people can pick up on it and 9 times out of 10 you can prevent fights by being calm and in control, you can only gain this level of self confidence and control from having been put under severe pressure and learning to sink or swim, no amount of theoretical training without active sparring or confrontation will prepare you for combat and nobody will ever convince me otherwise.

ArtyBoy

bushi wrote: »

cannot say I disagree with anything you said, with the exception of BJJ, in the general self defense case (can't see anyone being too successful huggin one opponent on the ground, while his friend(s) are jumping on his head). But I have never look too deep into BJJ, so maybe I am wrong, and there is some good strategy there against multiple attackers.

This just demonstrates your ignorance of BJJ, there are many aspects of Judo incorporated into BJJ, hip throws, reaping, one arm shoulder throws as well as a few others, all very effective in street fights, I'm speaking from experience as I've used them many times with great results.

Also there are many BJJ techniques that work great in stand up street fighting, the guillotine choke is one I've used several times in street fights to great effect as well as the rear naked choke. I don't believe there is any well trained BJJ person who would attempt to pull guard in a street fight unless it was a one on one confrontation and they found themselves on the ground.

Other useful BJJ techniques for the street are headlock escapes and escapes and counters when someone grabs, pushes etc. BJJ with Judo plus MMA striking is the ultimate in self defence.

Dermighty

bushi wrote: »

cannot say I disagree with anything you said, with the exception of BJJ, in the general self defense case (can't see anyone being too successful huggin one opponent on the ground, while his friend(s) are jumping on his head). But I have never look too deep into BJJ, so maybe I am wrong, and there is some good strategy there against multiple attackers.

Fair enough if you haven't seen much BJJ.


People think of BJJ as rolling on the floor. A naive person would assume that because someone does BJJ they want to take the fight to the ground or possess poor standup skills.

I'm only doing it a couple of years so I'm not an authority on BJJ by any means but I can provide a record of dozens of confrontations which have allowed me to prove to myself that the training I do in the BJJ gym is worthwhile for self defence and working on the door, standing up, against people with no BJJ skills, which is the format vast majority of conceivable self defence scenarios.

darced

This post has been deleted.

Gumbi

darced wrote: »

There is no way to handle multiple attackers apart from running away,or an outside chance of decking one and dealing with the other if there are only two attacker's.

If a group of guy's attacks you will end up on the ground in the fetal position unless you are extremely lucky,no amount of death kiss moves will work.

Skill and size advantages can go a long way, but in general, I would agree.

There is this one move, though... :P

Plastikman_eire

The techniques taught in KM ARE devastating and effective. That is a fact.

However where it falls down is it is impossible to train techniques like groin strikes, eye gouges, neck breaks or whatever at full power against a resisting opponent.

If you can't drill those techs enough to commit them to muscle memory and perform the action at full power, you are kidding yourself to think you will have the presence of mind to do it in a real fight.

Plastikman_eire

bushi wrote: »

cannot say I disagree with anything you said, with the exception of BJJ, in the general self defense case (can't see anyone being too successful huggin one opponent on the ground, while his friend(s) are jumping on his head). But I have never look too deep into BJJ, so maybe I am wrong, and there is some good strategy there against multiple attackers.

Call a spade a spade here: The only intelligent defence against multiple opponents(or knives, guns bla bla bla)is run like f*ck.

Dyr

Plastikman_eire wrote: »

Call a spade a spade here: The only intelligent defence against multiple opponents(or knives, guns bla bla bla)is run like f*ck.

The only intelligent defence against anything is run like f**k, if you have the chance. So I'm not sure what your point is.

bushi

Hello,

after watching this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etenCQ6erN0

I feel like I must go back to this thread, apologize & eat my words, spoken in defense of KM here - I find it really, painfully poor training, and fully appreciate all criticism said here. I mean, it is really terrible and useless, technically laughable, the energy, intent, focus, even REMOTELY realistic attacks - there's NOTHING there! It is painful to even watch. I am actually surprised, that this kind of crap is allowed to even use Krav Maga "brand". I mean, if someone finds this kind of training enjoyable and/or valuable - fine with me, but PLEASE, don't call it Krav Maga, don't even call it self-defense. It really is, as someone mentioned previously in this topic, false sense of security, and fooling yourself.

I'll just say again, that our KM classes were nothing like that at all, actually they were as far from that joke above, as one can possibly imagine.

Regards,

cowzerp

Naos wrote: »

Gonko, I'm not trying to be smart but I'm fairly certain that any MMAer knows how to eye gouge or give a nut shot - these are not moves only available to a KMer.

I would love to see Cowzer take one of them on. These lads were quite sloppy, couldn't throw a punch and wouldn't last a round with someone who trains regularly in MMA.

These lads are nuts, probably never been in a fight in their lives, before i ever done martial arts and just boxing i head kicked a lad who attacked me, i eye gouged some lad who was beating up my brother and got on top of me, I kneed a lad muay thai style before i knew what thai boxing was, point being all these attacks can and will be used in a fight regardless of training, my 1st day been showing kicks i was easily out kicking lads, why? becauise my range and footwork was better

point being any good mma fighter/boxer can eye gouge, knee the nuts etc, and they cant be drilled even though the walter mittys like to pretend their more experienced at it

FTA69

The whole Israel angle is what bemuses me like. I've been to Israel and Palestine and most Israeli soldiers I saw were 11 stone teenage conscripts who wouldn't knock snow off a rope. If the Israelis want you dead, they'll shoot you or blow up your car with an Apache or drop a Jericho missile on your house. They won't martial arts you to death.

gonko

cowzerp wrote: »

These lads are nuts, probably never been in a fight in their lives, before i ever done martial arts and just boxing i head kicked a lad who attacked me, i eye gouged some lad who was beating up my brother and got on top of me, I kneed a lad muay thai style before i knew what thai boxing was, point being all these attacks can and will be used in a fight regardless of training, my 1st day been showing kicks i was easily out kicking lads, why? becauise my range and footwork was better

point being any good mma fighter/boxer can eye gouge, knee the nuts etc, and they cant be drilled even though the walter mittys like to pretend their more experienced at it

Spot on, you done that stuff without training in it. Now imagine someone who trains for years, where these hits are embedded into their movement and defence when they do end up 'going into action'.....huge advantage. Or unless you think randomly throwing out these techniques is good enough, surely not.

FTA69

gonko wrote: »

Spot on, you done that stuff without training in it. Now imagine someone who trains for years, where these hits are embedded into their movement and defence when they do end up 'going into action'.....huge advantage. Or unless you think randomly throwing out these techniques is good enough, surely not.

You can't train eye strikes. When was the last time you poked someone in the eye in your gym?

CIARAN_BOYLE

gonko wrote: »

Spot on, you done that stuff without training in it. Now imagine someone who trains for years, where these hits are embedded into their movement and defence when they do end up 'going into action'.....huge advantage. Or unless you think randomly throwing out these techniques is good enough, surely not.

Except the hits aren't embedded into their movement, if its practiced and drilled its non contact or light contact and many will instinctally pull their strikes in a real situation because thats what they are used to from practice.

Plastikman_eire

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

many will instinctally pull their strikes in a real situation because thats what they are used to from practice.

I doubt most would even get that far.

Chances are that most KM'ers "opponents" while drilling are being fully compliant, so when attacked for real, my money is on the KM'er folding completely and not even attempting their super-secret-uber-mega-deathtouch.

Precious flower

The co-operating partners is serious pitfall in SOME Krav Maga classes. In other disciplines it's not so much of an issue because it's only really implemented when sparring with a new or relatively inexperienced individual, but with Krav Maga it's almost every move in some classes that are held. Without your partner putting up a fight how can you possibly know how much strength you'll actually require to hurt them, not to mention you know the attack is going to happen so you're totally prepared which puts you at a disadvantage when an attack comes out of nowhere and when you are least expecting it. I think it's especially dangerous to give women this kind of mindset. Also, any other martial art can easily do groin strikes, head butts or any other dirty techniques. Maybe they wouldn't know exactly how to defend themselves against a knife but unless you were going to be taken somewhere or raped, you'd just give over whatever you had. More than likely if it was a frenzied knife attack, even a well trained Krav Maga guy wouldn't fair a whole lot better than any other martial artist.

With headlocks and choking you see these elaborate moves and you're thinking ''You just said you had 3-5 seconds before you lose conciousness and your there trying to hit him in the maybe twice in the groin and elbow his face (all of which requires accuracy to do maximum damage not to mention strength which you are rapidly losing) and then remove yourself from the lock. I seriously doubt most of those would disable your attacker before you became unable to attack and lost consciousness. Would a judo throw not be better?

The 360 defence for a knife seems like a serious waste of time for me, if a person wants to stab you it'll be extremely quick and viscous not this psycho movie like stabbing. What's the point of training people like that? People will be completely unprepared when a person repeatedly tries to stab them in a matter of seconds. Another problem is the ''fighting 3 plus people defence'' the only reason that looks doable in Krav Maga videos is that they are coming at the person one at a time which is completely unrealistic. They'd all be coming for you at the same time in real life and your best hope would be legging it.

I think it's a great fitness class to go to but as for defence I would be wary of people getting to confident after doing just a seminar. Everyone knows in any other martial art it takes years to become proficient and I believe Krav Maga is the same and they should not be giving the impression that after one class you're even remotely capable of defending yourself better than before you walked in. I think those ladies defence classes are a money squeeze too. I don't mean to hate on Krav Maga I just think in some places you have to seriously question the effectiveness of the techniques.

Graemec

Hi
Having recently moved from SA and new to Boards ie I can only say that any Self Defence system, Martial Arts and MMA all have flaws so in my opinion when attacked and it will be at full force and very scary, survival (run away) is and will always be first prize.
I trained KM and I am in agreement with all, KM cannot be mastered over a day / weekend seminar you need at least six months training, depending also on how many hours a week you train.
Where I come from seminars were used to refine already honed skills or new specialized skills which would then be incorporated and practiced in normal classes.
Sparring should happen from day one and also to be with different partners: size, height, weight, strength and gender also when sparring never be a compliant attacker otherwise why bother.

mugger

Krav maga is hands down the biggest self defence/MA scam going,
its designed to get people with hardly any street fighting experience if any to sign up for a block of classes and for them to feel like they are ready for anything
it really pisses me off the amount of bull**** in self defence and MA,
On the Krav maga Facebook page its advertising a new course coming up which I'm sure you pay a lot of money up front and conveniently at the same time they get a email from a "past student" saying how he fought off 5 blokes in a club with his Girlfriend,are ye having a laugh
if you want to give loads of your money to scam artists and train with people who have never been in a real fight,then by all means,do Krav Maga.
if you want to get really fit and give yourself a better chance of winning a real fight then do something else

mugger

this is the email he said he got,i actually can't believe the neck of him
Hi Patrick.
Just a quick email to say thanks. Me and my girlfriend where leaving a night club on Saturday night at 3:00am. And was walking through the crowd and some man pushed into me and my girlfriend. I had her behind me like way to thought us class. I looked behind me and he was following me. Then I was struck from the side my another person. I went straight into shielding mode hands on my head
And trying to protect my other half at the same time. They couldn't hit me in the because I was landing elbows and knees there was 5 of them attacking me. They couldn't get me on the ground. I took blows to the back of the head, and the first blow made me dizzy but your training had me ready for that situation.
Just want to say thank you and the crew for drilling the moves into us. I haven't trained in all most a year and it all came like second nature to me.
Thanks Patrick. And I'll be back soon.
Regards
K

CB19Kevo

I think Krav maga has its place and depending on how often you train,The instructor and the students it can be effective.
I have done some training with united Krav Maga and they really dont bull**** anyone,Then again maybe the dynamic of the group was different as most trained in traditional martial arts or mma/boxing.

Mouthalmighty

mugger wrote: »

this is the email he said he got,i actually can't believe the neck of him
Hi Patrick.
Just a quick email to say thanks. Me and my girlfriend where leaving a night club on Saturday night at 3:00am. And was walking through the crowd and some man pushed into me and my girlfriend. I had her behind me like way to thought us class. I looked behind me and he was following me. Then I was struck from the side my another person. I went straight into shielding mode hands on my head
And trying to protect my other half at the same time. They couldn't hit me in the because I was landing elbows and knees there was 5 of them attacking me. They couldn't get me on the ground. I took blows to the back of the head, and the first blow made me dizzy but your training had me ready for that situation.
Just want to say thank you and the crew for drilling the moves into us. I haven't trained in all most a year and it all came like second nature to me.
Thanks Patrick. And I'll be back soon.
Regards
K

There is a word to describe a fight against 5 guys: an a$$ whoopin for the lad on his own!. What a crock of rubbish.That is a way to entice scared people into this crap!! Matt Thornton says it best:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Le3IUKp0I_o

Graemec

I disagree that KM is the biggest scam, it is and will always be very effective in real situations (Survival).
I do however agree it will not be effective by attending a weekend seminar but has to be practiced and the training has to be hard and against a non compliant attacker while sparring.
As with any KM / MA always check out the training offered and how diluted is the system or has it been altered for "civilian use" this always blows me away as an attack is an attack and survival is first place.
The above email is rather funny compared to an attack in SA of one of our KM students. Attacked in his house by 2 armed criminals with his family in the house the attack lasted for a half an hour, he survived but went to hospital with multiple stab wounds and a gunshot wound to the cheek. He had been training for a year and stated that without his KM training he would not have survived.
My point is an attack is going to be fast at full speed and it is not going to be pretty so your training and muscle memory will be the deciding factor of your survival.

Peetrik

Graemec wrote: »

I disagree that KM is the biggest scam, it is and will always be very effective in real situations (Survival).

See the problem there Graemec is that you can't possibly know if KM as it's taught here is going to be effective. You've never trained here.

KM as it is taught in Ireland, in any example provided here, is pretty much as has been described above. Untested techniques taught in a compliant fashion, and blatantly falsely advertised as being far more effective than it could ever hope to be in the hopes of snaring the gullible.

Graemec wrote: »

I do however agree it will not be effective by attending a weekend seminar but has to be practiced and the training has to be hard and against a non compliant attacker while sparring.

Do you have any videos of you or your club sparring?

mugger

And out of interest how many of you think Soldiers anywhere in the world today get into regular unarmed to the death combat,especially against someone that is armed,not a lot i would think,if a soldier doesn't have his own gun on him he's dead,your all watching way to many movies and want to believe someone can teach you to do the same.
for every one story you hear ( fake or true ) of someone taking a knife or gun off someone that wanted to kill them,there are thousands of stories you don't hear when guess what the guy got shot or stabbed to death

Mouthalmighty

Thats the truth mugger. This is something of a touchy subject for me. Things like KM prey on peoples fear. Chances are there isn't a knife wielding scumbag around every corner. Secondly if someone wanted to attack you with a knife for no reason you wouldn't get a chance to bust out any MA moves, you'll be too busy bleeding. If attacked by a number of assailants running away is your best option, if you can't back to a wall and throw strikes and hope not to be taken down and your ability to absorb damage ( because lets face it one will get battered in this situation, it's a damage limitation exercise) and stay going is probably your best defence there. If you haven't experienced a hard blow in your training any MA technique will not save you as panic (fight or flight) will take over in most people when they take a hard puch to the face. A single assailant who knows what they are doing will attack from behind, i.e you won't know it's coming and any pre-prepared routine of crotch chops will fly straight out the window, again panic from the full force blow. What MA may save someone here is one with some level of full contact sparring where recovering from a blow to the head is somewhat part of/ result of training (MMA, MT, boxing would be in my opinion the most effective here but there are others i'm sure). The ability to regain composure is vital here, if a MA does not train for the level of violence and aggression it is pointless. A single muppet who has never been in a row in his life KM will probably work in reality but against someone who has seen a bit of rough and tumble, I don't know. Any KM and other self defence ( as opposed to MA) training I've seen has been ridiculous with certain routines and crap. Common sense is the best self defence, stay away from rough areas, don't walk down dark alleys by yourself etc.
Apologies for the rant and if I repeated myself.

Dave Joyce

And out of interest how many of you think Soldiers anywhere in the world today get into regular unarmed to the death combat,especially against someone that is armed,not a lot i would think,if a soldier doesn't have his own gun on him he's dead

Definately not a lot as you say but then it DOES happen both against armed and less frequently unarmed combatants. A lot of these occasions although carrying their primary, using it was not an option for whatever reason.

Things like KM prey on peoples fear

Yea but a lot of MA's do the exact same thing perhaps not as dramatically.

Secondly if someone wanted to attack you with a knife for no reason you wouldn't get a chance to bust out any MA moves

Really, why train ANY martial arts at all so and how can you categorically say that??

If attacked by a number of assailants running away is your best option

Absolutely BUT what if your partner is with you in high heels or you're with your kids, you gonna run off and leave them or do you just slug it out??

What MA may save someone here is one with some level of full contact sparring where recovering from a blow to the head is somewhat part of/ result of training (MMA, MT, boxing would be in my opinion the most effective here but there are others i'm sure). The ability to regain composure is vital here, if a MA does not train for the level of violence and aggression it is pointless

Again, I agree with you here, you gotta have an idea of what its like to be really hit, IS vital BUT the problem is the combat sports mind is when the going gets tough you slug it out for the best which while admirable isn't very intelligent. A lot of people who have described what they do for multiple opponent training, is very hard brave slugging it out but if even one of those guys is carrying a weapon, while slugging it out you won't even know you've been hit by the said weapon unless it knocks you out or if you see blood. Most people describe been stabbed as feeling like they'd been punched, HARD.

IMHO that argument is like a striker going into an MMA bout, with only have a sprawl defence, no ground game and no wrestling thinking that with a limited game like this will go well for him. It may do in some cases but it WILL be shown up in a LOT of cases.

mugger

my main point was that very little people in any army's would get to this point so in other words wouldn't get a lot of "real" practice
So trail and error feedback wouldn't be common or reliable,your purely going off what someone (who probably hasn't been in many fights if any) tells you will work.
Don't get me wrong,everybody to there own but don't advertise lies and make people think they will be bullet proof

Mouthalmighty

Howya Dave,

I read a stat somewhere that in 70% of stabbing incidents (possibly related deaths) the first stab is fatal, (this was counter intuitive to what I thought) in shooting incidents with 9 mm pistol only 10% of the first shots are fatal. If you read my rant I said if you can't run away back into a wall if possible and hope to stay on your feet. (I study BJJ and if I was to go to the ground against multiple opponents you're gonna get stomped on). My argument about the knife is that if your opponent has a knife get out of there quick , if you can't teep like a mofo (like you taught us in college Dave) to keep distance. I wouldn't advice anyone to bust out any commando crap because your margin of error is too small. While on the door (and where I grew up) I saw 2 kinds of lads who carried knives, lads who used them as a threat and lads who used them. The latter usually gave no warning, one probably wouldn't see the knife.I got stabbed once in the ar$e (with a spork thingy but it went in far) & it hurt like yellow hell I thought I tore my glut, didn't realise what had happened. Almost debilitating pain (maybe I'm just soft). Just giving my 2 cents. Like all of us here. The reason to study martial arts is mainly for confidence, a would be attacker won't attack someone who has confidence they'd attack the eyes to the ground person. Animal instinct or some such.

Graemec

Peetrik wrote: »

See the problem there Graemec is that you can't possibly know if KM as it's taught here is going to be effective. You've never trained here.

KM as it is taught in Ireland, in any example provided here, is pretty much as has been described above. Untested techniques taught in a compliant fashion, and blatantly falsely advertised as being far more effective than it could ever hope to be in the hopes of snaring the gullible.




Do you have any videos of you or your club sparring?

Hi Peetrik I do not have any footage of sparring but please check out the website: truekravmagacapetown.co.za

Peetrik

This video is from the site you posted. At 30 seconds it shows a guy disarming two gun wielding opponents at the same time. This kind of thing is complete walter mitty stuff from the land of fairies and unicorns, it will not work against anyone who is actually trying to hit you and is exactly the type of nonsense that people are giving out about. Taking money off people to teach them this is deceitful and you are doing them a disservice

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdpplD20Z5o

Graemec

Peetrik wrote: »

This video is from the site you posted. At 30 seconds it shows a guy disarming two gun wielding opponents at the same time. This kind of thing is complete walter mitty stuff from the land of fairies and unicorns, it will not work against anyone who is actually trying to hit you and is exactly the type of nonsense that people are giving out about. Taking money off people to teach them this is deceitful and you are doing them a disservice

The heading clearly states demonstration, The point if I understand the topic of this discussion, was offering a weekend seminar and then being able to defend yourself against any attack on the street.

Dermighty

Graemec wrote: »

The heading clearly states demonstration, The point if I understand the topic of this discussion, was offering a weekend seminar and then being able to defend yourself against any attack on the street.

If it's not illustrating the capabilities of the training then it's a demonstration of what exactly?

My take on it is if the demonstration shows someone disarming two armed attacks simultaneously then it's accurate to say that people training the same techniques can expect results like that.

hurpederp

Peetrik wrote: »

This video is from the site you posted. At 30 seconds it shows a guy disarming two gun wielding opponents at the same time. This kind of thing is complete walter mitty stuff from the land of fairies and unicorns, it will not work against anyone who is actually trying to hit you and is exactly the type of nonsense that people are giving out about. Taking money off people to teach them this is deceitful and you are doing them a disservice

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdpplD20Z5o

Peetrik, it is a demonstration of Gun Kata. Don't be so closeminded. I live in Limerick, a rough town, and I can't tell you the amount of times two people have simultaneously pressed guns into my forehead. Thats legit. I wonder if Royce Gracie could have defended that. Probably not.

Graemec

Dermighty wrote: »

If it's not illustrating the capabilities of the training then it's a demonstration of what exactly?

My take on it is if the demonstration shows someone disarming two armed attacks simultaneously then it's accurate to say that people training the same techniques can expect results like that.

I agree and the demonstration shows what can be achieved, techniques ranging from a beginner to advanced. To call it Walter mitty stuff is incorrect as this system has been tested. Each to his own opinion.

Peetrik

Graemec wrote: »

Each to his own opinion.

I'm usually all for that, but the problem is that your opinion is at best defrauding people out of money for a service you don't have the competence to perform and at worst quite likely see someone seriously hurt or killed.

You are a danger to yourself and others for teaching this nonsense.

Graemec

Peetrik wrote: »

I'm usually all for that, but the problem is that your opinion is at best defrauding people out of money for a service you don't have the competence to perform and at worst quite likely see someone seriously hurt or killed.

You are a danger to yourself and others for teaching this nonsense.

Your opinion, you are entitled to it. I would rather be prepared than unprepared it is a jungle out there.

Dermighty

Graemec wrote: »

Your opinion, you are entitled to it. I would rather be prepared than unprepared it is a jungle out there.

Show 100% full contact live sparring or GTFO.

Graemec

Ok that escalated quickly, on a lighter note what you all doing on the weekend?

Tim_Murphy

Two guns held to a person's head and you think it would be possible to disarm them both and end up with guns in your own hands ready to rock? To be fair, that would be pretty gangsta if you could do it.

If that isn't Walter Mitty stuff I don't know what is.

You could test this stuff very easy with paintballs or airsoft guns or something like that. Something that would sting and leave a mark but wouldn't do any serious damage. You never see those videos though for some reason.