M7 - Naas/Newbridge Bypass Upgrade [Junction 9a now open]

Darc19

Pitch n Putt wrote: »

Why waste millions then if the plan wasn’t to improve the situation ?
What was the purpose of the project then?

Have a nice shiny road for us all to look at while crawling along at 30km/hr and taking 50mins to travel 20km upon completion ???

The primary purpose was to alleviate the phenomenal traffic problems around Naas and Newbridge. Many building projects were held back by traffic issues.

Kerry group only chose Naas based on the upgrade and contributed a few million to it. Long term the Area around the Kerry group will have over 2500 staff as the junction opens up further lands for office development. (edited)

prunudo

Somebody mentioned on this thread a long time ago that once this was completed that people who were rat running through villages, back roads and country lanes would move to the safer mainline and any improvement in journey times would be insignificant.
Where the improvement will be is that the back roads will be safer, people will be able to walk cycle on roads without fear of maniac commuters trying to save 2 minutes to avoid roadworks and log jams.
Improvements in infrastructure aren't only about time but ensuring safer alternatives and giving people back their communities.

Mantis Toboggan

prunudo wrote: »

Somebody mentioned on this thread a long time ago that once this was completed that people who were rat running through villages, back roads and country lanes would move to the safer mainline and any improvement in journey times would be insignificant.
Where the improvement will be is that the back roads will be safer, people will be able to walk cycle on roads without fear of maniac commuters trying to save 2 minutes to avoid roadworks and log jams.
Improvements in infrastructure aren't only about time but ensuring safer alternatives and giving people back their communities.

Have you been on any of these so called rat runs lately? There's more people than ever using them.

prunudo

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

Have you been on any of these so called rat runs lately? There's more people than ever using them.

No but hopefully when completed and the speed limit increases on the new section people will move off the back roads. Time will tell I suppose.

WishUWereHere

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

Have you been on any of these so called rat runs lately? There's more people than ever using them.

100% agree. While Kill &Johnstown SB have been given back their villages ( rightly so ) heading NB is a different matter altogether. Case in point: I have never seen so much traffic entering the N7 at J6.

BuzzFish

Darc19 wrote: »

Kerry group only chose Naas based on the upgrade and contributed a few million to it. Long term Kerry will have over 2500 staff.

Complete and utter rubbish. Kerry do not plan to have 2500 staff on that site. Never mentioned, never rumoured. Would be completely out of sync with their Beloit site which is a sister site and in existence much longer than Naas.

Also complete rubbish that they paid for the junction. I'd say they barely paid for the site they built on considering it was announced in recession times and millennium park badly needed a large tenant.

Care to share your source????

Darc19

BuzzFish wrote: »

Complete and utter rubbish. Kerry do not plan to have 2500 staff on that site. Never mentioned, never rumoured. Would be completely out of sync with their Beloit site which is a sister site and in existence much longer than Naas.

Also complete rubbish that they paid for the junction. I'd say they barely paid for the site they built on considering it was announced in recession times and millennium park badly needed a large tenant.

Care to share your source????

I should have double checked. The new junction at kerry group will open a further land bank for construction creating up to 2500 jobs (lawless td website)

As for the contribution, It was certainly mentioned several times - not cost of junction, but a contribution to it. If I can locate info, I'll post it.

jmkennedyie

New video of complete works on http://www.m7upgrade.com/project-updates

Direct link: https://youtu.be/ijr9L0E7YjA

Main page confirms:
M7 Motorway Traffic Update - 22 November 2019
The 80Km per hour speed restriction will be removed on the M7 Motorway and will return to 120Km per hour on 09th December 2019.

Also some new pics on http://www.m7upgrade.com/gallery

BuzzFish

Darc19 wrote: »

I should have double checked. The new junction at kerry group will open a further land bank for construction creating up to 2500 jobs (lawless td website)

As for the contribution, It was certainly mentioned several times - not cost of junction, but a contribution to it. If I can locate info, I'll post it.

Multiple sources quote €100m as the investment by Kerry to locate in Naas (Google). Internal rumors suggest they paid little to NAMA for the site as they were competing with 2 other sites. Although locally people say Kerry requested a new junction, paid for it, demanded it etc the truth is the plans for the junction far predate Kerry. I don't believe they would have contributed a cent as if they did they would have demanded that it be open the same time as the Global Technology Center.

The lack of direct access and the delays getting in and out
to the N7 have cost Kerry good staff who have been attracted back to Dublin due to the commute. As much time can be spent on the Monread road in Naas getting to the M7/N7 as the N7 to Newlands cross itself.

Many people focus on how good/bad this project has been for existing commuters but no-one to date has highlighted that the widening and new junction has increased the opportunity for business to locate outside Dublin. A business can now locate anywhere to Carlow, Portlaoise etc and expect to use the talent pool as far as Dublin.

These projects are not all about getting people into Dublin......

tom1ie

Pitch n Putt wrote: »

Why waste millions then if the plan wasn’t to improve the situation ?
What was the purpose of the project then?

Have a nice shiny road for us all to look at while crawling along at 30km/hr and taking 50mins to travel 20km upon completion ???[/QUOTE

The outbound leg (towards Nass) definitely needed to be upgraded, but I agree with the rest of your statement.
This project is and was always going to be a waste of money with regards to improving the traffic congestion on the Dublin bound carriage way.
As I said before the only way to improve this is to get people out of their cars by providing a high quality alternative public transport system, which the minister for transport has no interest in, and the nta (so far) are completely inept at.

traco

Can't believe it has taken so long to get the junction open. Traffic on the Newbridge road out from naas through the roundabouts (Bundle of Sticks) was mental before anything started. It has be made worse by the new junction 9 only half done (directing all southbound traffic for Newbridge back towards Naas to do a U-turn and head back to Newbridge), I really hope the opening takes some of the load off down this end.

BuzzFish

traco wrote: »

Can't believe it has taken so long to get the junction open. Traffic on the Newbridge road out from naas through the roundabouts (Bundle of Sticks) was mental before anything started. It has be made worse by the new junction 9 only half done (directing all southbound traffic for Newbridge back towards Naas to do a U-turn and head back to Newbridge), I really hope the opening takes some of the load off down this end.

Not knowing the detail but at the left of the southbound slip onto the M7 there is a huge area cut out for drainage. It seems this needed to complete this before they could complete the last ramp.

Also I know the new roundabout that at a far lower level than the old road which seems to have made the realignment more complex.

Again, just an observation rather than fact. It has taken a huge amount of time. How trucks have navigated the junction has amazed me.

My wife was heading to Newbridge from Naas and someone has come up the offramp from the M7 (northbound) and turned right (obviously not realising it was a half built roundabout they were arriving at and came towards her on the wrong side of the road. The new J10 has been far from well executed. That offramp is a disaster at night. No lighting and the lane splits half way up.

MaceFace

Having another look at the traffic volumes, it appears that since the opening of the 3 lanes, the Dublin bound traffic volume is up between 12%-20% on the N7 around the Kill junction between 6am and 7am.
After 7am the volume is down on last year (looking at a couple of samples), so it suggests people are still leaving their homes at the same time as they always have, but the M7 isn't slowing down their arrival on the N7. The traffic jams are starting earlier and probably more acute due to this.

Personally, I've noticed a significant increase in traffic between 6:10 and 6:30 around the Kill junction so was not surprised when I looked at the data.

All in all, once it's complete I'd like to understand the overall journey times of people from say Kildare town or Kilcullen to Red Cow and back in the evening.

A possible positive is that with the Dublin bound route likely deteriorating, finding a solution for the N7 to M50/City route will likely become a significant issue for the government as a lot of people are affected.

Besides Dublin bound weekday mornings, and ignoring the temporary traffic works, I think it will be safe to say the works will produce tremendous benefits to the users of the road and the people of Sallins, Naas, and Newbridge and anyone needing to drive in these areas.

SoupyNorman

MaceFace wrote: »

Having another look at the traffic volumes, it appears that since the opening of the 3 lanes, the Dublin bound traffic volume is up between 12%-20% on the N7 around the Kill junction between 6am and 7am.
After 7am the volume is down on last year (looking at a couple of samples), so it suggests people are still leaving their homes at the same time as they always have, but the M7 isn't slowing down their arrival on the N7. The traffic jams are starting earlier and probably more acute due to this.

Personally, I've noticed a significant increase in traffic between 6:10 and 6:30 around the Kill junction so was not surprised when I looked at the data.

All in all, once it's complete I'd like to understand the overall journey times of people from say Kildare town or Kilcullen to Red Cow and back in the evening.

A possible positive is that with the Dublin bound route likely deteriorating, finding a solution for the N7 to M50/City route will likely become a significant issue for the government as a lot of people are affected.

Besides Dublin bound weekday mornings, and ignoring the temporary traffic works, I think it will be safe to say the works will produce tremendous benefits to the users of the road and the people of Sallins, Naas, and Newbridge and anyone needing to drive in these areas.

I’d say there were quite a few commuters avoiding the N7 during roadworks, they’re back on it now adding to volume.

I’m extremely pleased with the upgrade. I come from Athy to Red Cow and my commute up is roughly the same (50-55mins) however there are days I can do it in 45 mins which was unheard of pre works.

Going home, utterly transformed. 40mins now, every day including Fridays. Wife even says I’m coming home more relaxed and less cranky so there’s the litmus test.

Longer term, Dublin bound is just going to get worse and worse because single occupancy car travel is the only option for the many. I would HAPPILY take public transport if it existed for me but a sustainable bus service is not available. I can take one bus in the morning and one in the evening but if I miss either ive no alternative.

I believe the answer lies in car pooling, build car park hubs at on ramps and incentivise people. Make one lane of the N7 a carpool lane…there’d be huge take up in my opinion.

tom1ie

SoupyNorman wrote: »

I’d say there were quite a few commuters avoiding the N7 during roadworks, they’re back on it now adding to volume.

I’m extremely pleased with the upgrade. I come from Athy to Red Cow and my commute up is roughly the same (50-55mins) however there are days I can do it in 45 mins which was unheard of pre works.

Going home, utterly transformed. 40mins now, every day including Fridays. Wife even says I’m coming home more relaxed and less cranky so there’s the litmus test.

Longer term, Dublin bound is just going to get worse and worse because single occupancy car travel is the only option for the many. I would HAPPILY take public transport if it existed for me but a sustainable bus service is not available. I can take one bus in the morning and one in the evening but if I miss either ive no alternative.

I believe the answer lies in car pooling, build car park hubs at on ramps and incentivise people. Make one lane of the N7 a carpool lane…there’d be huge take up in my opinion.

Good ideas. It’s amazing that they haven’t built a p+r just off the n7, and then run high frequency busses into the city, via a qbc along the n7, from the p+r. There could be strategic stops along the way to allow the p+r bus to integrate with existing pt, to allow people to change modes or busses.
In time, when this idea is found to work, the qbc could be upgraded to a metro.

BuzzFish

tom1ie wrote: »

Good ideas. It’s amazing that they haven’t built a p+r just off the n7, and then run high frequency busses into the city, via a qbc along the n7, from the p+r. There could be strategic stops along the way to allow the p+r bus to integrate with existing pt, to allow people to change modes or busses.
In time, when this idea is found to work, the qbc could be upgraded to a metro.

There was talk of a P&R off the new J9a on the opposite side to Kerry Group. Not only could you put a P&R for buses in there, but you could add a new train station as the Arrow passes by. No forward thinking though. Even to create it for buses right now and add the train later once they (will they ever!!) add the extra 2 train lines to Kildare to allow more frequent arrow with impacting intercity.
Sallins station is just too small and parking is too tight to increase passenger numbers any further.

harr

I had the misfortune of traveling to the airport a number of times last week during rush hour ... traveling from Portlaoise and it was a complete nightmare... most the people I was dropping up were from various European capitals and they were taken aback by how inaccessible the airport was. A park and ride on N7 with links to city and a fast link is the airport would be a god send.

MaceFace

BuzzFish wrote: »

There was talk of a P&R off the new J9a on the opposite side to Kerry Group. Not only could you put a P&R for buses in there, but you could add a new train station as the Arrow passes by. No forward thinking though. Even to create it for buses right now and add the train later once they (will they ever!!) add the extra 2 train lines to Kildare to allow more frequent arrow with impacting intercity.
Sallins station is just too small and parking is too tight to increase passenger numbers any further.

The problem extending to 4 lanes past Hazelhatch is there is no space in Sallins - just look at a satellite image and you see the school and shops/apartments in the Waterways and then on the other side of the Sallins road are housing estates.

Regardless of that, the bigger problem is the train only brings people to Heuston which is fine if you work around there or maybe bang in the city center. For people who need to go to Blackrock, Sandyford, UCD, East Wall, even Merrion Square, that means a Bus/Luas and/or Dart as well. Door to door, it just doesn't work for many people.
And just thinking about it - the vast majority of people on the N7 in the mornings join the M50 (or get off at Citywest) suggesting that not many are heading to the city unless they head to the N4?

Tom Cruises Left Nut

MaceFace wrote: »

The problem extending to 4 lanes past Hazelhatch is there is no space in Sallins - just look at a satellite image and you see the school and shops/apartments in the Waterways and then on the other side of the Sallins road are housing estates.

Regardless of that, the bigger problem is the train only brings people to Heuston which is fine if you work around there or maybe bang in the city center. For people who need to go to Blackrock, Sandyford, UCD, East Wall, even Merrion Square, that means a Bus/Luas and/or Dart as well. Door to door, it just doesn't work for many people.
And just thinking about it - the vast majority of people on the N7 in the mornings join the M50 (or get off at Citywest) suggesting that not many are heading to the city unless they head to the N4?

Trains go through the tunnel to meet the other line though

MaceFace

Tom Cruises Left Nut wrote: »

Trains go through the tunnel to meet the other line though

You mean Phoenix Park tunnel?
Yes, but it is an hour from sallins to grand canal so door to door by train for most people will be a very long commute.

donvito99

MaceFace wrote: »

You mean Phoenix Park tunnel?
Yes, but it is an hour from sallins to grand canal so door to door by train for most people will be a very long commute.

Given the distance involved, an hour from Hazelhatch to Blackrock is very reasonable.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Hazelhatch,+Co.+Dublin/Blackrock,+Dublin/@53.334854,-6.4910867,11z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m19!4m18!1m5!1m1!1s0x48677115f85c8629:0x2600c7a7bb54d022!2m2!1d-6.5189387!2d53.3221966!1m5!1m1!1s0x486708c6c593433b:0x849955b6c2e83605!2m2!1d-6.1778335!2d53.3021597!2m4!5e0!5e1!5e2!5e3!3e3

MaceFace

donvito99 wrote: »

Given the distance involved, an hour from Hazelhatch to Blackrock is very reasonable.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Hazelhatch,+Co.+Dublin/Blackrock,+Dublin/@53.334854,-6.4910867,11z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m19!4m18!1m5!1m1!1s0x48677115f85c8629:0x2600c7a7bb54d022!2m2!1d-6.5189387!2d53.3221966!1m5!1m1!1s0x486708c6c593433b:0x849955b6c2e83605!2m2!1d-6.1778335!2d53.3021597!2m4!5e0!5e1!5e2!5e3!3e3

It may be but it’s quicker to drive.
As Hazelhatch isn’t ain’t the n7 though, look at Sallins. Still quicker by car from Blackrock during rush hour. That’s the point, encouraging people out of their cars.
I done that route Sallins-Blackrock for a few years about 10 years ago. There were a few of us who did and it was horrendous. Always stressing about making connections or having to wait for another 20 mins.

donvito99

MaceFace wrote: »

It may be but it’s quicker to drive.
As Hazelhatch isn’t ain’t the n7 though, look at Sallins. Still quicker by car from Blackrock during rush hour. That’s the point, encouraging people out of their cars.
I done that route Sallins-Blackrock for a few years about 10 years ago. There were a few of us who did and it was horrendous. Always stressing about making connections or having to wait for another 20 mins.

If we had invested in the railway with the same eagerness as we did the roads, we'd be laughing.

Dart Underground, as was proposed, would have allowed for high speed access from Sallins to Pearse, and then it's about 20minutes by Dart to Blackrock, etc. Would also have seen a massive increase in frequency, reliability and capacity. But we through a few billion at the M50 widening and now we're talking about outer M50, bypass of the N11....

tom1ie

MaceFace wrote: »

The problem extending to 4 lanes past Hazelhatch is there is no space in Sallins - just look at a satellite image and you see the school and shops/apartments in the Waterways and then on the other side of the Sallins road are housing estates.

Regardless of that, the bigger problem is the train only brings people to Heuston which is fine if you work around there or maybe bang in the city center. For people who need to go to Blackrock, Sandyford, UCD, East Wall, even Merrion Square, that means a Bus/Luas and/or Dart as well. Door to door, it just doesn't work for many people.
And just thinking about it - the vast majority of people on the N7 in the mornings join the M50 (or get off at Citywest) suggesting that not many are heading to the city unless they head to the N4?

Yeah which is why the express busses from this theoretical p+r would have to stop at key interchange points for bus orbital routes, heavy rail stations, Luas stations and cycle stations
Again though, this is not something our minister for transport is capable of suggesting to the nta, nor does he want the hassle.

BuzzFish

Wouldn't be be great if a JJ Kavanagh or other large reputable bus operator bought a parcel of land in Naas millenium Park or close by and got a license to run direct to Dublin city center. Private enterprise P&R.

Once successful that 3rd lane could become a bus corridor at peak times.

They'd do for Kildare, Laois and Carlow commuters what quickpark did for Dublin airport parking. Competition = efficiency and cost control. Whole other thread though, but there must be a business case in it. There are good bus services to Dublin from Naas but nowhere for commuters to park.

Cazale

Drove through the works last night around 2am and there was loads of works on the northbound side. Around ten different crews involved.

Tomrota

BuzzFish wrote: »

Wouldn't be be great if a JJ Kavanagh or other large reputable bus operator bought a parcel of land in Naas millenium Park or close by and got a license to run direct to Dublin city center. Private enterprise P&R.

Once successful that 3rd lane could become a bus corridor at peak times.

They'd do for Kildare, Laois and Carlow commuters what quickpark did for Dublin airport parking. Competition = efficiency and cost control. Whole other thread though, but there must be a business case in it. There are good bus services to Dublin from Naas but nowhere for commuters to park.

With no integration with LEAP caps and LEAP 90 discount, that is ineffective. Also JJ kavanagh charge ridiculously high fares (3€ from one side of Naas to the other, seriously? You can get from Bray to IKEA for 2.50€). Most people will have to get a second bus or train when they reach the city. So you’d have to pay for parking, pay the high fare, and then pay for another fare. Cheaper to drive.

In order for public transport to work it has to be considerably faster or considerably cheaper than driving, and in most effective circumstances both. The entire N7 corridor doesn’t have either of those benefits, and nobody will leave their cars until its provided by the government.

Put a 5€ toll on the N7 tomorrow and you’d see car numbers won’t drop because there are NO alternatives. People would just pay it. I despise people who suggest tolling the N7 and M50. It we had a public transport network like Amsterdam, actually, if we had one like ANY other EU capital, it would be fine to put a toll on the roads. But we don’t, and never will, because politicians don’t care about it.

riddlinrussell

Tomrota wrote: »

With no integration with LEAP caps and LEAP 90 discount, that is ineffective. Also JJ kavanagh charge ridiculously high fares (3€ from one side of Naas to the other, seriously? You can get from Bray to IKEA for 2.50€). Most people will have to get a second bus or train when they reach the city. So you’d have to pay for parking, pay the high fare, and then pay for another fare. Cheaper to drive.

In order for public transport to work it has to be considerably faster or considerably cheaper than driving, and in most effective circumstances both. The entire N7 corridor doesn’t have either of those benefits, and nobody will leave their cars until its provided by the government.

Put a 5€ toll on the N7 tomorrow and you’d see car numbers won’t drop because there are NO alternatives. People would just pay it. I despise people who suggest tolling the N7 and M50. It we had a public transport network like Amsterdam, actually, if we had one like ANY other EU capital, it would be fine to put a toll on the roads. But we don’t, and never will, because politicians don’t care about it.

I've heard from JJ.Kavanagh drivers that the company is planning to roll out leap integration in the next year, They were also complaining about their timetabling (apparently this is set by TFI?) The Naas to Dublin bus is scheduled to arrive in Naas at 33 minutes past the hour, while the Bus Eireann arrives at 30 minutes past the hour...

Is completion of the Bypass still scheduled for March?

antietam1

Left Kildare retail outlet at 3.45 pm last Friday and drove to Red cow with no delays.
Was I just lucky? or early?

Mantis Toboggan

antietam1 wrote: »

Left Kildare retail outlet at 3.45 pm last Friday and drove to Red cow with no delays.
Was I just lucky? or early?

You were going against the traffic - try it a weekday morning.