M7 - Naas/Newbridge Bypass Upgrade [Junction 9a now open]

marno21

IMO there's an opportunity to launch a P&R using the Sallins bypass, direct link to the M7 and it crosses the railway line.

The Sallins&Naas and Sallins P&R stations would be quite close together but it may be something worth exploring as the N7 and the railway line become quite divereged north of Naas.

markpb

harr wrote: »

We traveled on the train into Dublin last week for first time in years. For my wife and one child it was 40 something euro return. Crazy.
No wonder people won’t use public transport with those prices.

Commuters don't pay anything like that price. There's a decent discount for buying weekly/monthly/annual tickets and then between 20% and 53% off again for buying the ticket through work.

marno21 wrote: »

IMO there's an opportunity to launch a P&R using the Sallins bypass, direct link to the M7 and it crosses the railway line.

P&R isn't the panacea people believe it to be. It's definitely a solution but not one without problems. TfL specifically do not support building P&R in London at all. They consume vast amounts of land, provide poor permeability for rainwater and generate large amounts of pollutant vehicular runoff. They also create local traffic congestion which can be very disruptive. If they rely on buses, they can be difficult to serve efficiently at the peak times. They are also security concerns because of the large number of cars parked there unattended all day.

Maybe the biggest problem is the cost. Bus-based P&R generally only runs to/from the car park so it's not part of public transport on the corridor. They don't generate much traffic during the day but you can't run a very minimal service or people can't use the P&R during those times. You also can't rely on other trip generators to keep the service going during those times. Good general-use public transport for the urban regions are a much better solution.

Graniteville

tom1ie wrote: »

Was there ever anything official about it, as in drawings?

The brother in law is the expert and it seems it was an idea by the owners of the land. (almost 500acres on Kildare Dublin border.)

WishUWereHere

Graniteville wrote: »

Read posts on previous pages

1. You cannot have workers work more than 48 hours a week

2. This is a 14km project plus two new junctions plus sallins bypass. There are at all times in excess of thirty teams working, sometimes over forty. Plenty of area to work during normal hours. General Night working is very rarely if ever a feature of major road projects anywhere. - and I'm including UK and Germany in that.


But maybe putting a few teams on nights and letting those workers sleep during the day would give people like you a good feeling.??

But utterly crazy considering that there is space for all teams to be working normal hours.

Only result would be safety issues and premium payments. Certainly zero time savings

What is it with perople obsessed with only working 48 hours per week? Get another shift on duty then 96 hours can be performed. I used to drive artics across europe and can assure You I have seen maintenance work day & night ( I recall the M25 being a 24/7 job) in England and Germany.

As for health & safety? You mean to tell me they couldn't make a plan to work longer hours during daylight hours last summer, and they are now?

As for the assumption ( and I may be wrong here ) early last summer there was only roadworks to J10.

BTW You sure You are not ceilingfly in the past? He/She was banned & then lo & behold You register some 5-6 days later ( according to Boards ). Your whole attitude is bombastic and not pleasant. You have an awful and terrible attitude when someone doesn't agree with You.

I'm not sure it is nice having a discussion with You.

Graniteville

WishUWereHere wrote: »

What is it with perople obsessed with only working 48 hours per week? Get another shift on duty then 96 hours can be performed. I used to drive artics across europe and can assure .

But with all the space in the world for a full workforce, why would you need night work when all shifts can be catered for in daytime?

48 hours is the legal maximum work week.

Maintenence work can be done anytime especially when it's emergency works.


Your suggestion makes no sense when you actually think about it.

Mantis Toboggan

I don't get the excuse that they can't work evenings/nights/weekends because they can only work 48 hours a week. That's like saying tesco can't open on the weekend as the staff have worked their hours during the week! That's why they hire more staff. What annoyed me most was seeing all the machines parked up for the weekend at 4pm during the summer when the weather was fantastic and it was bring until 10pm.

Either way it is as it is, SIAC won the tender so the governing bodies where happy to drag the process out. Its going to be open for Easter so we'll just have to sit in the traffic until then.

It will certainly help in the evenings leaving Dublin but this won't solve a whole lot, traffic will still be bottlenecked heading into Dublin.

markpb

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

Either way it is as it is, SIAC won the tender so the governing bodies where happy to drag the process out. Its going to be open for Easter so we'll just have to sit in the traffic until then.

People act as if there’s no reason not to work additional hours but there is a huge one: cost. If SIAC were working all day long, they’d need a lot of extra staff. Those staff would expect to be paid extra for working anti-social hours. Those staff would not be available for other projects. They’d also need all their subcontractors to be willing to provide labour and material at unusual hours which they might do, if the price is right.

TIIs budget is finite, every extra euro spent to extend the working hours of the N7 is money that can’t be spent on other projects. That money might have been allocated to smaller projects which remove a dangerous bend and save lives or to the ongoing maintenance of the rest of the network. In a few years time, will you be happy driving on a lumpy road surface on the M7 because a road in Cork is built a few weeks faster?

WishUWereHere

Graniteville wrote: »

But with all the space in the world for a full workforce, why would you need night work when all shifts can be catered for in daytime?

48 hours is the legal maximum work week.

Maintenence work can be done anytime especially when it's emergency works.


Your suggestion makes no sense when you actually think about it.

What doesn't make any sense to me is seeing a building site deserted all those beautiful daylight summer evenings, yet workers having to work these dark windy wet nights.

tom1ie

markpb wrote: »

Commuters don't pay anything like that price. There's a decent discount for buying weekly/monthly/annual tickets and then between 20% and 53% off again for buying the ticket through work.



P&R isn't the panacea people believe it to be. It's definitely a solution but not one without problems. TfL specifically do not support building P&R in London at all. They consume vast amounts of land, provide poor permeability for rainwater and generate large amounts of pollutant vehicular runoff. They also create local traffic congestion which can be very disruptive. If they rely on buses, they can be difficult to serve efficiently at the peak times. They are also security concerns because of the large number of cars parked there unattended all day.

Maybe the biggest problem is the cost. Bus-based P&R generally only runs to/from the car park so it's not part of public transport on the corridor. They don't generate much traffic during the day but you can't run a very minimal service or people can't use the P&R during those times. You also can't rely on other trip generators to keep the service going during those times. Good general-use public transport for the urban regions are a much better solution.

This does nothing for people who travel from other counties into Dublin to work. People have to be able to park their car somewhere.

You also say:
Bus-based P&R generally only runs to/from the car park so it's not part of public transport on the corridor.
But if the p+r has taken 10000 commuters off the road and onto pt then it has already contributed to the pt corridor. Commuters within m50/outer suburbs will be served by bus connects.

Re rainwater permeability, turn the p+r’s into mini reservoirs

With a good efficient layout and phone based ticketing systems the local traffic levels could be managed quite well. Key to this is direct access onto and off the motorway and selecting sites that have both rail and bus access.

Pete_Cavan

Mantis Toboggan wrote: »

I don't get the excuse that they can't work evenings/nights/weekends because they can only work 48 hours a week. That's like saying tesco can't open on the weekend as the staff have worked their hours during the week! That's why they hire more staff.

Like it's that simple. There is a shortage of construction workers and huge competition for trained operatives yet SIAC will have no problem finding lads for a couple of months of night work at stand daytime rates of pay! Perhaps those banging on about night working should volunteer, it would at least shorten their commute. This night working suggestion should be a banable offence at this stage, it has no basis in reality.

marno21

MOD:

Anyone else think this whole debate about day vs night working has been done to death at this stage? It's been made clear from a number of people why things are the way they are and how it won't be changing.

The project is due to finish in the Spring and has only been ongoing since January. It seems to me that this timeframe for widening 11km of motorway is not unreasonable, and it's certainly not as if there has been a major overrun.

BelfastVanMan

marno21 wrote: »

MOD:

Anyone else think this whole debate about day vs night working has been done to death at this stage? It's been made clear from a number of people why things are the way they are and how it won't be changing.

The project is due to finish in the Spring and has only been ongoing since January. It seems to me that this timeframe for widening 11km of motorway is not unreasonable, and it's certainly not as if there has been a major overrun.

Agreed.
It will be worth it when it's done.
(Hopefully)..

Pete_Cavan

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Like it's that simple. There is a shortage of construction workers and huge competition for trained operatives yet SIAC will have no problem finding lads for a couple of months of night work at stand daytime rates of pay!

Can you please quote where any poster said unsociable hours should be paid the same as daytime? Or that completing the project earlier wouldn't have resulted in more direct costs borne by the state?

If not, why did you create an argument no-one has made and then feel the need to reply discrediting something that exists only in your head?

Perhaps those banging on about night working should volunteer, it would at least shorten their commute. This night working suggestion should be a banable offence at this stage, it has no basis in reality.

I don't think you should talk about things being based in reality.

Night-time construction work isn't unheard of. Even in Ireland. Even by SIAC. Even on road projects. Even last month on a road project in South Dublin.

@marno, you're arguing it's not an unreasonable length of time. Can I ask what evidence you're basing it on, or is just a "gut feeling"?

Yes the argument has been done to death, mostly because the level of intellectual rigour in this forum has declined to being nigh non-existent.

Mostly people whinging (as opposed to complaining) about traffic, and people replying with laughably juvenile strawmans. Awesome!

Pintman Paddy Losty

Glad to see the speed vans seem to have been removed. Other drivers didn't seem to notice so were sticking to the 60km limit in the left lane. I was able to bomb it all the way down from dublin with the right lane left free. Hope they don't come back any time soon.

riddlinrussell

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

Glad to see the speed vans seem to have been removed. Other drivers didn't seem to notice so were sticking to the 60km limit in the left lane. I was able to bomb it all the way down from dublin with the right lane left free. Hope they don't come back any time soon.

I hope you're extracting the urine mate. Too many people ignoring the speed limit in place to keep workers safe and reduce accidents, you're right that there shouldn't be speed vans though, permanent average speed cameras would be much better.

Cazale

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote:

Glad to see the speed vans seem to have been removed. Other drivers didn't seem to notice so were sticking to the 60km limit in the left lane. I was able to bomb it all the way down from dublin with the right lane left free. Hope they don't come back any time soon.

There was two this morning at 7am southbound. One just after the Naas ball behind the sign and one just before the M9 turn off. I'd say they caught loads as people were flying by me seemingly unaware of them.

tom1ie

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

Glad to see the speed vans seem to have been removed. Other drivers didn't seem to notice so were sticking to the 60km limit in the left lane. I was able to bomb it all the way down from dublin with the right lane left free. Hope they don't come back any time soon.

Very foolish. Slow down and respect the limits please!

road_high

marno21 wrote: »

IMO there's an opportunity to launch a P&R using the Sallins bypass, direct link to the M7 and it crosses the railway line.

The Sallins&Naas and Sallins P&R stations would be quite close together but it may be something worth exploring as the N7 and the railway line become quite divereged north of Naas.

I would absolutely use this!

riddlinrussell

marno21 wrote: »

IMO there's an opportunity to launch a P&R using the Sallins bypass, direct link to the M7 and it crosses the railway line.

The Sallins&Naas and Sallins P&R stations would be quite close together but it may be something worth exploring as the N7 and the railway line become quite divereged north of Naas.

I think theres potential to remove a lot of train traffic from Sallins with a bit of creative thinking from IÉ, they plan to increase the size of the car park at Sallins but the entry point for it is incredibly tight, if they instead build a big underground multistory and then run a road alongside the railway line to the bypass (LiLo Junction??) They could remove a lot of Sallins traffic and create a P+R directly linked to the main road. Close off road access to Sallins village from that car park and make it pedestrian only, meaning the tight access becomes local access for the cottages along there and much quieter. I will have to draw this up now...

Pintman Paddy Losty

Cazale wrote: »

There was two this morning at 7am southbound. One just after the Naas ball behind the sign and one just before the M9 turn off. I'd say they caught loads as people were flying by me seemingly unaware of them.

I drove at 60km the whole way southbound this mornibg. There was no speed vans at the places you mentioned. Total waste of time. Won't be making that mistake again.

BelfastVanMan

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

Cazale wrote: »

There was two this morning at 7am southbound. One just after the Naas ball behind the sign and one just before the M9 turn off. I'd say they caught loads as people were flying by me seemingly unaware of them.

I drove at 60km the whole way southbound this mornibg. There was no speed vans at the places you mentioned. Total waste of time. Won't be making that mistake again.

...until you're caught, that is.

Or worse..

riddlinrussell

The concept I was thinking of for the Car Park, Potentially you could have a larger 'Overflow' near the Bypass and people could walk/shuttle-bus to the station from it...

The large box would be a big underground multistory, rearrange the surface level so theres still pedestrian access, and service access for IÉ

Sallins P+R

pad199207

A park and ride train station on the Sallins bypass would be hugely beneficial. Buses could also operate from the Park and Ride along with trains. But ofcourse government would balk at the price. Luas HQ probably wouldn’t be happy either with the loss of traffic from Red Cow Park and Ride

riddlinrussell

pad199207 wrote: »

A park and ride train station on the Sallins bypass would be hugely beneficial. Buses could also operate from the Park and Ride along with trains. But ofcourse government would balk at the price. Luas HQ probably wouldn’t be happy either with the loss of traffic from Red Cow Park and Ride

What i'm saying is theres not actually a need for anything as expensive as moving the entire station from the centre of Sallins, link on the bypass, carpark beside it, little automated shuttlebus from there to the station alongside the tracks would take a minute. Further reduce Sallins traffic to local only essentially, then you can improve cycle provision through the village and into Naas from the Canal greenway etc

HonalD

riddlinrussell wrote: »

What i'm saying is theres not actually a need for anything as expensive as moving the entire station from the centre of Sallins, link on the bypass, carpark beside it, little automated shuttlebus from there to the station alongside the tracks would take a minute. Further reduce Sallins traffic to local only essentially, then you can improve cycle provision through the village and into Naas from the Canal greenway etc

Sorry but that’s an unfeasible suggestion. The railway is a mainline track and there’s not enough room to fit anything parallel to the line that’s not additional tracks. Also, there’s a crossing of the canal to add in and demolition and reconstruction of the existing road overbridge in Sallins.

riddlinrussell

HonalD wrote: »

Sorry but that’s an unfeasible suggestion. The railway is a mainline track and there’s not enough room to fit anything parallel to the line that’s not additional tracks. Also, there’s a crossing of the canal to add in and demolition and reconstruction of the existing road overbridge in Sallins.

I'd say it would be in the same cost/closure requirements as moving the entire station, which would be the alternative if you want a P+R on the bypass, either would suit the concept of reducing traffic in Sallins itself to essentially local only.

pad199207

I officially call it ‘Sallins Parkway P+R’
Or ‘ Naas Parkway P+R’ because it’s practically Naas anyways.

riddlinrussell

pad199207 wrote: »

I officially call it ‘Sallins Parkway P+R’
Or ‘ Naas Parkway P+R’ because it’s practically Naas anyways.

M7 Parkway Sallins would probably get it across best?

Pete_Cavan

The station wouldn't have to be moved, just build a new station with terminating platform west of the town. Call it M7 Parkway.

pad199207

It could be a huge opportunity for Irish Rail.