Funding (fees) preferendum.

errlloyd

Fairly sure we made up the word preferendum, but it has a nice ring to it.

Anyway next Tuesday and Wednesday we're voting on what we want UCDSU to campaign on, (and lobby USI to campaign on). To give you some background, about 65 days ago USI (Union of Students in Ireland) decided to consult Member Organisations (college SUs) about changing their stance of fees. MOs were meant to consult students on their positions before going to USI congress and voting based on it.

Congress took place this week. Only three MOs had conducted a full survey before congress. Trinity Students had voted for a Loan Scheme. IADT and DIT had both voted to continue campaigning to maintain the current level of student contribution. Debate went on for about an hour at USI congress in Balinasloe, before a number of Student's Unions voted to delay the vote until they'd had time to consult with their members. USI will probably hold a special congress on this before the end of the year.

TL;DR version - What you vote for on Tuesday will be the policy USI campaign for next year.

Note E: These options are the ones that appeared in the USI preferendum, they may not appear in this order on the ballot card on Tuesday.

A: Fully exchequer funded (no fees, no contribution)
B: Student contribution (current model, about 2200 student contribution)
C: Full Fees (Student pays all)
Loan Scheme (Student gets an interest free loan which they have to start paying back once they are earning a certain amount).
E: Graduate Tax: (Graduates get charged a slightly higher rate of income tax until they have paid off their education).
F: None of the above.

GobBass

I'm just going into a Masters in September, so I hope no graduate tax comes in and screws up financing it, I've enough on my plate. Anything those darn tootin' kids doing undergraduates is at the discretion of the powers that be aka the Department of Finance and the Department of Education, certainly not the USI.

On the other hand:

RandolphEsq

Graduate tax; so long as it is not introduced to apply to those that have already graduated I would be in favour of it. It doesn't prevent anybody going to college either. Though maybe a hybrid graduate tax/student loans type scheme would work best.

HavingCrack

Before any change to the free fees is introduced I would insist on a full audit being done on how all 3rd level institutions are currently spending their money and how money can be saved. The salaries of some lecturers and the presidents in particular are absurd. If they were fully private they can pay people what they like but if they're publicly funded they need to be fully examined.

Personally speaking free fees is the only thing I get from the government in return for paying my taxes, directly obviously excluding roads, health etc.

If fees return and they're the same level as the UK surely there might be an exodus to UK universities which has many colleges of a far higher standard than we have here? If you're moving from Tipperary to Dublin for college surely it's the same as moving to Oxford or Manchester?

errlloyd

HavingCrack wrote: »

Before any change to the free fees is introduced I would insist on a full audit being done on how all 3rd level institutions are currently spending their money and how money can be saved. The salaries of some lecturers and the presidents in particular are absurd. If they were fully private they can pay people what they like but if they're publicly funded they need to be fully examined.

Personally speaking free fees is the only thing I get from the government in return for paying my taxes, directly obviously excluding roads, health etc.

If fees return and they're the same level as the UK surely there might be an exodus to UK universities which has many colleges of a far higher standard than we have here? If you're moving from Tipperary to Dublin for college surely it's the same as moving to Oxford or Manchester?

Specifically on that, UCDSU successfully proposed a motion to get USI to campaign to renegotiate the Croke Park deal. Atm 80% of uni spending in Ireland is on Salaries, and its non negoitable because of Croke park. So I think the SU is already going down that route to a certain extent.

CommanderC

Student loans work....for the students. Lived in NZ for the last couple of years and the government are in a hell of a mess trying to collect the money.

RandolphEsq

errlloyd wrote: »

Specifically on that, UCDSU successfully proposed a motion to get USI to campaign to renegotiate the Croke Park deal. Atm 80% of uni spending in Ireland is on Salaries, and its non negoitable because of Croke park. So I think the SU is already going down that route to a certain extent.

It is a cause to riot the way the fat cats cling to their Croke Park Agreement.

HavingCrack

errlloyd wrote: »

Specifically on that, UCDSU successfully proposed a motion to get USI to campaign to renegotiate the Croke Park deal. Atm 80% of uni spending in Ireland is on Salaries, and its non negoitable because of Croke park. So I think the SU is already going down that route to a certain extent.

80% is spent on salaries :eek: :eek: :eek: Wow, I had no idea it was anywhere near that much, no wonder they're struggling with funding if all their money is going on salaries.

errlloyd

HavingCrack wrote: »

80% is spent on salaries :eek: :eek: :eek: Wow, I had no idea it was anywhere near that much, no wonder they're struggling with funding if all their money is going on salaries.

Actually the Croke park deal is really bad for students for more reasons then that. As you know it also contains a hiring ban. So when one of the secretaries in the medical centre quit they weren't able to replace her. The medical centre then had to close for an extra 6 hours per week, but because they couldn't touch doctor pay we still have to pay doctors for that ****ing time.

But yeah, some of the highly paid in UCD get far too much cash.

Anyway I have no connection to the Belfield FM, but there special on funding is perhaps the best thing a UCD media outlet has ever produced. Very professional, very impressive.

http://www.belfieldfm.ie/10402/Specials

WoollyRedHat

Is student loans with mainteance grant on a mean tested basis as per the current system a possiblity?

If So, I'd change from D to F

errlloyd

I would guess there will still be means tested grants as per the UK model. Realistically we just don't know.

To clarify we're not choosing between existing government policies here, we're trying to draft our own. If you feel grants shouldn't be available under a system were an interest free loan is available, that's pretty reasonable.

Say it in council yourself, ask your rep to say it in council, write a letter to Pat asking him to make that representation at USI National Council. Or worst case scenario I'll say it for you in council. Once UCDSU largely agrees we'll submit a motion to that effect at special congress, or possible congress next year to see if we can mandate USI to take that stance.

WoollyRedHat

errlloyd wrote: »

I would guess there will still be means tested grants as per the UK model. Realistically we just don't know.

To clarify we're not choosing between existing government policies here, we're trying to draft our own. If you feel grants shouldn't be available under a system were an interest free loan is available, that's pretty reasonable.

Say it in council yourself, ask your rep to say it in council, write a letter to Pat asking him to make that representation at USI National Council. Or worst case scenario I'll say it for you in council. Once UCDSU largely agrees we'll submit a motion to that effect at special congress, or possible congress next year to see if we can mandate USI to take that stance.

No, I'm of the opposite, Interest Free Loan with a means-tested grant being available ... if both possible and viable.


Personally, this preferdum should be done properly and avoid populism at all costs, so as to let everyone be able to come together and take a position that is viable and fair across the spectrum. Bearing in mind, that once the decision is voted on and eventually comes into law, it will be hard to see a reversal for some years to come. It should not be rushed... it's a very important vote.... if UCD and USI are proposing a referdum without prodviding a balanced and informative campaign, then it should not go ahead until they do so.

Jigglypuff

I would be wary that a Graduate Tax could end up costing the state more in certain situations, for example for the many students who emigrate, they wouldn't have to pay the Graduate Tax. It's an income tax, and thus a tax that could be avoided by moving outside of the country.
For that reason, amongst others, I would prefer a Loan Scheme.
However, is there any information further clarifying what the Union means by this option?
Is it a loan for the amount of the student contribution, or for the full fees that they pay in England?
Also, for those who can avail of government grants at the moment, will they still be entitled to some form of relief with the Loan scheme? I believe that it would be fair that students who currently get grants for their student contribution would not get a grant for the loan, as once we leave college and start working and paying it back, we're all in the same boat, very few people's parents will be paying back their child's loan.

WoollyRedHat

Jigglypuff wrote: »

I would be wary that a Graduate Tax could end up costing the state more in certain situations, for example for the many students who emigrate, they wouldn't have to pay the Graduate Tax. It's an income tax, and thus a tax that could be avoided by moving outside of the country.
For that reason, amongst others, I would prefer a Loan Scheme.
However, is there any information further clarifying what the Union means by this option?
Is it a loan for the amount of the student contribution, or for the full fees that they pay in England?
Also, for those who can avail of government grants at the moment, will they still be entitled to some form of relief with the Loan scheme? I believe that it would be fair that students who currently get grants for their student contribution would not get a grant for the loan, as once we leave college and start working and paying it back, we're all in the same boat, very few people's parents will be paying back their child's loan.

Agree with last point, mainteance grant should not form as a reduction in a payment of college fees, but rather living costs only. Would also be introduced to know whether student loan is a student contribution or up front full fees? Mind you, this is impossible to know, it will form the basis of government's stance, although I see them pursuing full payment if graduate tax/ loan comes into place, so atm the full €5,000?

WoollyRedHat

Not really fully happy with the vote ucd website, seems to be the views as suggested by those on University Observer, rather than completely impartial.

Anyway, would encourage students who are interested in this referndum to perhaps post information you find on the various methods of funding for higher education

Here's something recent I found: http://www.ul.ie/news-centre/news/ul-researcher-highlights-scope-of-alternative-funding-models-for-higher-edu


Would also be interested to hear of experiences of those outside Ireland in how they found the quality of higher education, and generally how it was funded.


The three main models I am seeing are Student Loan ( U.K, U.S, New Zealand), fully exchequer funded ( France, Sweden, Spain) . In Germany, 11 out of 16 states are free of charge. In Austrailia, it is a graduation tax,

._.

Could you not use your student loan to pay for accommodation too? Or is just strictly something to pay your college fees with and that's it?
I was kind of liking the whole "financial independence from parents" thing there.

HavingCrack

._. wrote: »

Could you not use your student loan to pay for accommodation too? Or is just strictly something to pay your college fees with and that's it?
I was kind of liking the whole "financial independence from parents" thing there.

You can pay for accomodation with your loan under the UK system . There's different amounts you can borrow depending on whether it's just fees and/or rent and/or living expenses.

If there's a loan system brought in the grant has to go. Everyone is on an equal footing, retaining the grant would just be unfair.

errlloyd

Jigglypuff wrote: »

1: I would be wary that a Graduate Tax could end up costing the state more in certain situations, for example for the many students who emigrate, they wouldn't have to pay the Graduate Tax. It's an income tax, and thus a tax that could be avoided by moving outside of the country.
2: For that reason, amongst others, I would prefer a Loan Scheme.
However, is there any information further clarifying what the Union means by this option?
3: Is it a loan for the amount of the student contribution, or for the full fees that they pay in England?
4: Also, for those who can avail of government grants at the moment, will they still be entitled to some form of relief with the Loan scheme? I believe that it would be fair that students who currently get grants for their student contribution would not get a grant for the loan, as once we leave college and start working and paying it back, we're all in the same boat, very few people's parents will be paying back their child's loan.

Hey gonna try my best to answer as I have labled them. I know its an impolite way of dealing with queries but here goes.

1: With the emigration graduate tax problem we do have a number of advantages. The first is that Australia is beginning to build up a kind of network of nations, each is currently bound to Australia through bilateral agreements. I can't actually name any off the top of my head but its the UK, NZ, Canada ect. Each of these nations also charges Australia's graduate taxes, payable to Australia. Furthermore the tax will always be waiting for if you come home, and most people will come home eventually.

2: Completely agree with you on the loan scheme being better (although I see their are arguments the other way). Now I don't quite understand which you need clarification on, the loan or the graduate tax. When you clarify I'll post from the introduction we were given by USI, its brief but honest.

3: The loan would probably be for full fees. Now thats not the full cost. The full cost for a med student is somewhere in the region of 30k per year. Full fees is somewhere around 6k, but presumably is as flexible as the UK Govt fees.

4: This remains to be seen. My guess would be yes there will still be grants. I personally wouldn't be fully comfortable with the idea of loading people down with tens of thousands of euro of debt and no actual financial help.

misslt

I'm from Northern Ireland and so am in receipt of the student Maintenance loan.

You can borrow up to £3,400 as loan each year. You can apply for a means-tested grant on top of that.

If you're attending a UK university, there is a separate loan that goes directly to your university for your fees, you'll never see it, until you have to start paying it back

I would be in favour of a student loan system here too. I will never have to avail of it as I assume it will be based on where you are from rather than where you attend university, but it works in the UK, repayments are deducted automatically from your salary once you're earning over a certain amount (I think its now £21k, I could be wrong).

I think it would be the easiest system all round.

BOHtox

Not loans anyway. Students can end up, in America, a hundred thousand in debt when they leave college. I personally don't want to be in debt when I leave college. I wouldn't mind however paying a higher rate of tax for the first couple of years until my fees are paid for!

HavingCrack

BOHtox wrote: »

Not loans anyway. Students can end up, in America, a hundred thousand in debt when they leave college. I personally don't want to be in debt when I leave college. I wouldn't mind however paying a higher rate of tax for the first couple of years until my fees are paid for!

We aren't in the US and the colleges won't be charging US style fees I imagine, their educational standards are nowhere near a Harvard or Columbia. Hence talk of being in 100,000 worth of debt is just scaremongering. I suspect it will be what fees currently are-5000 per year.

You won't pay a higher rate of text for the first couple of years by the way, it's until you retire as far as I can work out.

BOHtox

HavingCrack wrote: »

We aren't in the US and the colleges won't be charging US style fees I imagine, their educational standards are nowhere near a Harvard or Columbia. Hence talk of being in 100,000 worth of debt is just scaremongering. I suspect it will be what fees currently are-5000 per year.

You won't pay a higher rate of text for the first couple of years by the way, it's until you retire as far as I can work out.

No you pay a graduate tax until you pay off the cost of your education.

I know we won't end up with hundreds of thousands in debt but it could be 20,000 or higher depending on your circumstances. To put a student in that much debt is just wrong! Even 6,7,8 thousand is too high. Debt at that age is not a good thing!

shofukan

I'd effectively be in favour of a student loan system as long as it doesn't follow the American system where they can essentially pay you up to and beyond the grave for every cent owed, regardless of whether or not you can pay.

kkumk

Personally I'd be in favour of means testing fees, where those who get grants now would get completely free fee's, no contribution charge or anything, and the rest of us would pay full fee's, or have the option of getting a student loan if our parents didn't want to/couldn't afford to.
It really annoys me that there are so many students (in UCD and elsewhere) whose parents could more than afford to pay 5,000 a year, but they don't simply because the government gives everyone free fees!
Obviously leaving college with 20grand of debt isn't ideal, but obviously things can't keep going the way they are. I'm not really clear on the Graduate Tax, but it just doesn't seem as flexible.

BOHtox

kkumk wrote: »

Personally I'd be in favour of means testing fees, where those who get grants now would get completely free fee's, no contribution charge or anything, and the rest of us would pay full fee's, or have the option of getting a student loan if our parents didn't want to/couldn't afford to.
It really annoys me that there are so many students (in UCD and elsewhere) whose parents could more than afford to pay 5,000 a year, but they don't simply because the government gives everyone free fees!
Obviously leaving college with 20grand of debt isn't ideal, but obviously things can't keep going the way they are. I'm not really clear on the Graduate Tax, but it just doesn't seem as flexible.

Why shouldn't they pay at all? That's a disgraceful policy! If someone uses education at this level they should pay for it! I don't qualify for the grant now but my mam could definitely not afford to be able to pay for me and my brother through college. It should be paid for by the individual through a graduate tax!

HavingCrack

kkumk wrote: »

Personally I'd be in favour of means testing fees, where those who get grants now would get completely free fee's, no contribution charge or anything, and the rest of us would pay full fee's, or have the option of getting a student loan if our parents didn't want to/couldn't afford to.
It really annoys me that there are so many students (in UCD and elsewhere) whose parents could more than afford to pay 5,000 a year, but they don't simply because the government gives everyone free fees!
Obviously leaving college with 20grand of debt isn't ideal, but obviously things can't keep going the way they are. I'm not really clear on the Graduate Tax, but it just doesn't seem as flexible.

Student's aren't interchangeable with their parents. If someone's parent can't/won't pay why should that student be saddled with debt but someone on a grant gets everything for free ?? They are both getting the same college education why should they get it for free? If loans come in everyone starts off on a level playing field, otherwise it's just unfair.

BOHtox

I have to laugh at people who think state-funded education is still a viable option! Talk about deluded!

._.

BOHtox wrote: »

I have to laugh at people who think state-funded education is still a viable option! Talk about deluded!

I walked into Th.M this morning for programming and there was "vote fully exchequer funded!" flyers all over the place. I laughed and then began to wonder how people can have their heads up their arses so much that think that'd ever be a viable option, hah.

HavingCrack

BOHtox wrote: »

I have to laugh at people who think state-funded education is still a viable option! Talk about deluded!

It's not laughable in fairness, the German lander, France, Scandinavia and the Netherlands all manage it quite well. I'm not neccessarily in favour of it myself but saying that's it's absurd isn't very fair either. How much money is wasted on supporting the bad business practices of private institutions that could be used to support state funded education for example?

In the current economic situation in Ireland, yes it's not financially viable but in the right economic climate it can be.

._.

HavingCrack wrote: »

In the current economic situation in Ireland, yes it's not financially viable but in the right economic climate it can be.

You know where UCD is located currently, right?

It's very obviously not financially viable for us, anybody with half a brain should know that.

irishbucsfan

BOHtox wrote: »

Not loans anyway. Students can end up, in America, a hundred thousand in debt when they leave college. I personally don't want to be in debt when I leave college. I wouldn't mind however paying a higher rate of tax for the first couple of years until my fees are paid for!

Degree attainment in the USA is higher than it is in Ireland. This is at least partially because there is no barrier to entry.

The reason debt climbs so high in the states (and it is absolutely ridiculous) is that the colleges are allowed charge "real" fees (ie that would see med students leaving Irish universities 120k in debt). However, by keeping the fees where they are, the average debt in ireland would be far far lower. By having the government managing the rate of repayment (ie 9% of income over 24k or something like that) you are not going to put too large a burden on a young person leaving college.

Take my own example, I had to emigrate rather than finish my UCD degree. My self-employed parents divorced and the cost of that coupled with the cost of educating my younger (more-gifted) sister meant that asking them to support me through full time education was too much. I now work for a large firm in london and I'm doing fairly well but my position is extremely precarious because I did not have the means to complete my degree. I would jump at the chance to go back and finish in ireland and I know that taking on a little bit of debt would not be a massive price to pay for that. Especially an interest free government loan.

I personally prefer the student loan system. Let students assume the debt personally. Let them own their education and let them take on the responsibility of repaying that debt. Making repayments proportionally to an amount earned over a pre-defined amount. An individual will take the loan thenselves, pay it off at 9% of every cent earned over over 24k. Repayments fund the next generation behind it. Is that honestly a crippling level of debt?



The problem is chasing the emigrants. We would have to come to agreements on that with the UK, USA and Oz I'd guess. It may, unfortunately, be that wed have to charge a certain surcharge on the initial balance of all loans to fund the gap caused by those who would dodge it. The more self-sufficient the system is the better imo.