Underage Mystery Shoppers

Lovelyjaws

Hi. I work as a shop assistant in a supermarket. My manager informed me today that I 'apparently' sold alcohol to an underage mystery shopper a number of weeks ago.

This has come as quite a shock to me as I am always very careful and check ID. I now face a disciplinary meeting next week.

My questions are: (1) Is it illegal for a mystery shopping company to employ an underage person to purchase alcohol? (2) is it illegal for the supermarket to knowingly allow an underage mystery shopper to purchase alcohol on their premises?

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

I know the gardai send minors into shops and off licences for test purchases of booze/cigs so based on that id guess that it is indeed legal.
If I was in your shoes id hold my hands up and tell them it was a once off and hopefully they won't be too hard on you OP.

Lovelyjaws

jar_of_coins wrote: »

I know the gardai send minors into shops and off licences for test purchases of booze/cigs so based on that id guess that it is indeed legal.
If I was in your shoes id hold my hands up and tell them it was a once off and hopefully they won't be too hard on you OP.

I know the Gardai and HSE actively employ this tactic to discourage underage drinking and smoking and that's fair enough. Can't see how it would be legal for a private company to do so though.

Procrastastudy

Make sure you are represented during the disciplinary hearing - this is distinct from the investigation. If you haven't already then I highly recomend joining a union.

During the disciplinary you may want to employ the tactic of cross examining any witnesses - this will be the mytery shopper. This will throw them a major curve ball if they are a UK based retailer. This all depends on how much you want to push it. The best tactic may be just to hold your hands up and say I'll do better next time... depends on your gut feeling of where this is going.

I know from working in retail myself that there is a posability you'll get "made an expample of".

Lovelyjaws

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

Make sure you are represented during the disciplinary hearing - this is distinct from the investigation. If you haven't already then I highly recomend joining a union.

During the disciplinary you may want to employ the tactic of cross examining any witnesses - this will be the mytery shopper. This will throw them a major curve ball if they are a UK based retailer. This all depends on how much you want to push it. The best tactic may be just to hold your hands up and say I'll do better next time... depends on your gut feeling of where this is going.

I know from working in retail myself that there is a posability you'll get "made an expample of".

Thanks for the advice. I won't be holding my hands up to anything yet. My employers haven't presented any evidence to back up their claim yet.

Shelflife

By allowing the sale of alcohol to underage customers they have in effect broken the law and leave themselves open to prosecution even in a controlled mystery shopper environment.

i would also question the legality of employing an underage person to buy drink and actually knowlingly alllowing alcohol to be sold to this person.

however I dont think that this will be of any benefit to you op unless you are prepared to shop them to the authorities.

make sure that you have someone with you at the meeting.

Shelflife

As an aside, I hate the logic behind the mystery shopper.

We have always had a strict policy on underage sales of cigs and alcohol, to the point that the youngsters didnt bother trying to pull a fast one with us.
The upshot of that was we had a zero underage sales senario.

If a mystery shopper then comes into our shop and catches us out,how does that discourage someone from smoking or drinking?

strangely enough its not illegal for an underage person to buy drink or cigs only the seller gets nailed.

MiseryCat

Lovelyjaws wrote: »

Hi. I work as a shop assistant in a supermarket. My manager informed me today that I 'apparently' sold alcohol to an underage mystery shopper a number of weeks ago.

This has come as quite a shock to me as I am always very careful and check ID. I now face a disciplinary meeting next week.

My questions are: (1) Is it illegal for a mystery shopping company to employ an underage person to purchase alcohol? (2) is it illegal for the supermarket to knowingly allow an underage mystery shopper to purchase alcohol on their premises?

The only thing i can't understand is If you sold an underage person alcohol drink why didn't they come to you straight away with this information Why did they leave it for WEEKS and then tell you this, you should see a solicitor on this ,what proof do they have for this claim? And yes the Guards are known for sending in teenagers to test for alchohol in stores,This sounds very wrong:mad:

Lovelyjaws

MiseryCat wrote: »

Lovelyjaws wrote: »

Hi. I work as a shop assistant in a supermarket. My manager informed me today that I 'apparently' sold alcohol to an underage mystery shopper a number of weeks ago.

This has come as quite a shock to me as I am always very careful and check ID. I now face a disciplinary meeting next week.

My questions are: (1) Is it illegal for a mystery shopping company to employ an underage person to purchase alcohol? (2) is it illegal for the supermarket to knowingly allow an underage mystery shopper to purchase alcohol on their premises?

The only thing i can't understand is If you sold an underage person alcohol drink why didn't they come to you straight away with this information Why did they leave it for WEEKS and then tell you this, you should see a solicitor on this ,what proof do they have for this claim? And yes the Guards are known for sending in teenagers to test for alchohol in stores,This sounds very wrong:mad:

I'm a bit confused myself to be honest. I'm very strict when it comes to alcohol and ID. I cannot fathom why it has taken them weeks to raise this issue.

MiseryCat

Lovelyjaws wrote: »

I'm a bit confused myself to be honest. I'm very strict when it comes to alcohol and ID. I cannot fathom why it has taken them weeks to raise this issue.

You should see a Lawyer or solicitor that's my advice ,Explain to them on whats happening , what tesco managers done and see what they have to say to this, :mad: HONESTLY I hate to think they would try to make an example of you for this OR you could be blamed in the wrong as well ,I too work in a store as well and i could see this from your view on it when it comes to serving alcohol to people about being very careful, Watch it with these ***** they would try anything to slam you with .:mad:

Ken.

Lovelyjaws wrote: »

I'm a bit confused myself to be honest. I'm very strict when it comes to alcohol and ID. I cannot fathom why it has taken them weeks to raise this issue.

Ask them for cctv footage of the incident. If it ain't on camera you've a good chance. Although if they do have it on camera your nailed.

Victor

Hmm, by virtue of you being their employee, they have broken the law. Are they sure they want to proceed with this?

Alternatively, the mystery shopper was actually older than 18.

Talk to a solicitor.

wmpdd3

I dont think the supermarket was named by the op? I also dont think the named supermarket above uses mystery shoppers for this policy. we were told the police send in 17 year olds with no id to see if they are asked for id. If they are served the police go back into the store immedetly. I dont think the store will let the mystery shopper in to the investigation, or allow them to be cross examined. If there is cctv, they will shown this. Def join the union and get on to them asap to act as witness for every meeting.

Procrastastudy

This is a common practise in retail involving age restricted product. Could people elaborate on what they are aserting is illegal about it?

EDIT bear in mind if you have a challenge 21 policy the person need only be under 21 not under 18. Some retailers operate a challenge 25 policy so make sure you know which one you operate!

Procrastastudy

wmpdd3 wrote: »

I dont think the supermarket was named by the op? I also dont think the named supermarket above uses mystery shoppers for this policy. we were told the police send in 17 year olds with no id to see if they are asked for id. If they are served the police go back into the store immedetly. I dont think the store will let the mystery shopper in to the investigation, or allow them to be cross examined. If there is cctv, they will shown this. Def join the union and get on to them asap to act as witness for every meeting.

They dont have a choice in Ireland - if there is a witness used then the person gets to cross examine them in the disciplinary.

CCTV - Will depend of whether this use of CCTV is in the employment contract I would of thought. CCTV in retail is not allowed to be used for performance management purposed - at least thats my understanding.

Zambia

I would go into the meeting with a A4 Notebook and pen.

First up state you wish to keep a record of what was said at the meeting.

As soon as they start take notes , do not speak until your notes are done on what they said.

If they speak at all write it down..

As in

Employer" Are you going to transcribe every word"

Employee " Yes how do you spell transcribe?"

You may still get fired but sure you may as well make it difficult.

* Note this is not legal advice , its not even good general advice.

Del2005

Lovelyjaws wrote: »

Hi. I work as a shop assistant in a supermarket. My manager informed me today that I 'apparently' sold alcohol to an underage mystery shopper a number of weeks ago.

This has come as quite a shock to me as I am always very careful and check ID. I now face a disciplinary meeting next week.

My questions are: (1) Is it illegal for a mystery shopping company to employ an underage person to purchase alcohol? (2) is it illegal for the supermarket to knowingly allow an underage mystery shopper to purchase alcohol on their premises?

If you are always aware of asking for ID and they show you serving someone with fake ID, where does that legally leave the company? Since they would have had to supply the fake ID to purchase alcohol.

Make sure you read your employment contract. There has to be something about mystery shopper's and the discipline procedures that follows. Have they followed the correct process? I can't see a private company allowing a minor buy alcohol being legal.

Shelflife

GCDLawstudent wrote: »

This is a common practise in retail involving age restricted product. Could people elaborate on what they are aserting is illegal about it?

EDIT bear in mind if you have a challenge 21 policy the person need only be under 21 not under 18. Some retailers operate a challenge 25 policy so make sure you know which one you operate!

The mystery shopper part is not illegal . But the selling of alcohol to an underage person is.
The retailer is effectively breaking the law by allowing the sale to go through.

Procrastastudy

Shelflife wrote: »

The mystery shopper part is not illegal . But the selling of alcohol to an underage person is.
The retailer is effectively breaking the law by allowing the sale to go through.

It depends on the law - with age restricted DVDs it actually the person behind the counter not the actual retailer. In Ireland they aren't even required to show due diligence (training, refusal log etc.). I'm not 100% sure on booze and fags but again the retailer is checking its procedures. The retailer did not allow the sale - the shop assistant did. I can't really see it being a factor that gets someone out of a disciplinary or would carry much wieght at the EAT. I also can't see the relevant authorities pursuing the retailer when they are testing their compliance with their legal duties.

BTW OP What training did you get and when? What is the challenge policy where you work?

Shelflife

Its the retailers obligation, even when the retailer shows clear evidence that the sales assistant was trained properly and breached all clearly defined regulations the retailer will still get fined and may have to close the off licence. More or less the same with cig sales.

As I pointed out earlier it probably wont help the OP unless they are prepared to go all the way with it, i would imagine at an EAT that they would not look kindly on an illegal act being authorised and carried out in order to catch out employees.

While the authorities may not be interested, there is still a criminal act being committed and a paper trail to prove it, there are smarter ways then that to see if staff are fulfilling their obligations.

BrianD

Check your contract regarding mystery shoppers. If your employer uses them in their own capacity to monitor performance then it needs to be documented in your contract.

If it's an outside authority like the HSE or Garda then there should be some documentation in place that advises that this is likely to happen. The employee manual should be written so that your standard working procedure keeps you on the right side of the law.

If there is a disciplinary matter involving either scenario then you should be asking for supporting evidence that it was you that the mystery shopper was served by. It is unfair that this matter is being dealt with weeks after the alleged incident took place. I would certainly ask how long have they been aware of this?

I recall that there was some debate about the legality of sending in minors to make these purchases in Ireland. It seems that they are legal but that they are done in a "sting" type fashion. So if a purchase is made the law walks in and the "bust" takes place there and then and you know all about it. Seems you were not made aware at the time and they are only surfacing it now.

Best advice is the poster who suggested having a representative with you.

wmpdd3

They dont have a choice in Ireland - if there is a witness used then the person gets to cross examine them in the disciplinary.

In every investigation and disciplinary I have been in there has never been 'cross examination of the witness'. a statement is taken and if a question comes up the witness is interviewed again.

also, there is always a note taker and the notes are read back at the end and signed by all parties.

there is usually: the employee, a hr manager, a managers witness, a staff witness/ union shop steward and a note taker.

Procrastastudy

Have you ever asked? Try it next time. It's a right stemming from the fact there is a written constitution in Ireland and what is refered to as the rules of natural justice.

Had to have a giggle when a guy in a company I was working for asked - was refused and we could literally hear the solictor on the end of the phone telling him to walk.

Stupid sod didn't kept the job three months and they got him on something else.

EDIT: I suppose you could just have the witness re-interviewed - I know if that was me I could make that last months.

EDIT 2: Also the sugestion made by Zambia is another fun one if you know they're taking the mick. I'd then go though what their note taker has wriiten down and compare every word. After you've insisted on a typed copy of course - becuase you couldn't read the note takers hand writing. Then insist they sign yours!

This is all assuming you think they're going to fire you. Otherwise you're better off going in alone and saying very little apart from "yes I admit it" and "Very sorry". Retail managers and HR are the most vendictive people alive. If you are going to be represented make sure its a union rep. That normally scares the crap out of them depensing on the retailer.

Victor

BrianD wrote: »

I recall that there was some debate about the legality of sending in minors to make these purchases in Ireland. It seems that they are legal but that they are done in a "sting" type fashion. So if a purchase is made the law walks in and the "bust" takes place there and then and you know all about it.

A few things.

Strict liability usually applies to such matters.

The sample purchase can be phrased carefully, e.g. "Can I get some XYZ?" is an enquiry, not an inducement.

It would be difficult otherwise to enforce the law.

wmpdd3

Retail managers and HR are the most vendictive people alive. [/QUOTE] i respectfully disagree.... Op, have they even started an investigation yet?