Siblings fighting

india

I have two yorkies 9 months old they are brothers from the same litter.About 3weeks ago they started to fight very aggressively mostly over dog toys or treats ect but it has got worse they fight over attention,food ect and sometimes for no reason at all.One of them usually starts the fighting and then the other one reacts.The vet advised us to neuter them to reduce the aggression,so we neutered them on Thursday however they have continued to fight I know it has only been a few days but I'm really hoping it improves you can't take your eye off them for two min it's very stressful.Im 7 months pregnant and am concerned for when the baby is born.We are really attached to them it would kill me to rehouse one of them.Has anyone had a similar experience with their dogs or have any advice.

WolfgangWeisen

Complete dogs will have the urge to have sex, if they can't have sex then they'll take out their urges in fighting.

Having two complete males together, not intending to use them for stud but not neutering them either is a recipe for trouble.

India: Give it a few days and see what happens, there may be residual testosterone in their system that has yet to feck off. If it doesn't improve, hire a trainer to come over.

Cherry Blossom

india wrote: »

I have two yorkies 9 months old they are brothers from the same litter.About 3weeks ago they started to fight very aggressively mostly over dog toys or treats ect but it has got worse they fight over attention,food ect and sometimes for no reason at all.One of them usually starts the fighting and then the other one reacts.The vet advised us to neuter them to reduce the aggression,so we neutered them on Thursday however they have continued to fight I know it has only been a few days but I'm really hoping it improves you can't take your eye off them for two min it's very stressful.Im 7 months pregnant and am concerned for when the baby is born.We are really attached to them it would kill me to rehouse one of them.Has anyone had a similar experience with their dogs or have any advice.

I would advise you to do some serious research on litter-mate syndrome.

http://www.caninedevelopment.com/Sibling.htm
http://www.dogstardaily.com/radio/02-littermate-syndrome
https://paws4udogs.wordpress.com/2012/03/30/littermate-syndrome/

To be perfectly honest I think neutering both dogs was the wrong thing to do, you are going to need a lot of help from a behaviourist if you have any chance of keeping both these dogs and I'm afraid it sounds a lot like the damage has already been done.

TooManyDogs

It can take months for the testosterone to fully leave their systems.

+1 on getting a behaviourist in, they'll be able to show you how to deal with the aggression and the subtle warning signs of something about to kick off

india

Just realised I posted this on another thread so starting a new one here.

Any advice greatly appreciated....

<Duplicate content removed>

WolfgangWeisen

What is wrong with the advice you received in the other thread that warrants a separate discussion on the matter?

Did you read AdrenalineJunkie's links and if so, what were your thoughts on them?

I really don't see the value in copy/pasting your post into a new thread when you've already received responses in an ongoing thread and as such, I'm going to flag it.

Cherry Blossom

OP I've created this thread and combined all your replies.

india

Wolfgang there was nothing wrong with the responses I received from the other thread. They were very helpful and have been putting them to good use. I am not a big user of forums and was unsure of how to post a new thread. I accidentally stole another persons thread with my own questions and only realised afterwards.
Why does it bother you so much anyways, you seem so stressed about it? Flag away if it makes you feel better......

Thanks to everyone else for the other helpful responses

We've been taking some of the advice that we received-a firm 'no' when any eyeballing or that sort of carry on happens, usually splits them up. The water pistol idea is great too!

Any other thoughts?

india

adrenalinjunkie thanks for those links.

Had a good read of them last night. It seems the point they are making is bring up two separate dogs. So I've been separating them while feeding, sleeping and eating. I am going to walk them separately today and will be sure to get a behaviourist in.

I feel much better as we have not had an episode since all this great advice. But i know there is a long way to go but am determined to keep at it.

I cant thank you all enough for the help

Whispered

OP if your dogs are insured you might be able to get the behaviourist on the insurance if your vet refers you. Check your policy, I think Alliance is the only one to do it. Choose your behaviourist carefully, it's not regulated so anybody can call themselves a behaviourist.

http://apdt.ie/ I would recommend finding someone through this site.

Best of luck!

boomerang

TooManyDogs wrote: »

It can take months for the testosterone to fully leave their systems.

Not sure that's right, TMD. It can take weeks or months before they are infertile, but there should be an immediate drop in testosterone.

LucyBliss

I have a male and female from the same litter. They're going on four years old now and are very well adjusted, if I say so myself! They don't fight or go for one another on a whim, nor are they joint at the hip. So yes, while litter mate syndrome can be an issue and raising two dogs who are going through the same developmental stages can make you want to bang your head against the wall sometimes (or take to the bed with a bottle of booze!), it's not impossible if you are prepared to do the work.

Personally, I found that being alert to them when they were playing together was a big factor in stopping any arguments. I'd clap my hands or knock on the wooden floor to break them up. I walked them together and separately so we could get the pack/family mentality going as well as me having some one to one with them, which is always nice.
They slept together from the start at night in a crate. Now they sleep upstairs, either on my bed or on the floor in a dog bed. It depends what level of comfort they're looking for - duvet or dog blanket. :rolleyes:

I have always fed them together as well. From day one, I made them sit and wait for the bowl to be put on the floor. I stay with them while they eat, not because they're food aggressive, but because I have one who likes to take a turn about the room while chewing some kibble and the other lad will take a mouthful out of her dish while she does so. It's like he thinks it's a buffet.

I'm not saying one way is better than the other, just that you read the advice and find a way that works for you and your dogs. Dogs aren't the same and sometimes the solutions are a 'one size fits all' either.

If they are well exercised and mentally stimulated (hiding bits of treat and kibble around the house and garden is something my three really enjoy), then a lot of the issues will be easier to deal with as they simply won't have the energy for it to escalate.

Cherry Blossom

I'm actually in the process of getting a second dog and I bought this book

It's not a 'big' read and is written in a way that is very easy to understand. It's mostly just common sense but seeing things written down in black and white seems to make things just that bit clearer as to what you need to do. It's also quite reasonably priced.

TooManyDogs

boomerang wrote: »

Not sure that's right, TMD. It can take weeks or months before they are infertile, but there should be an immediate drop in testosterone.

I've always found it can take a couple of months for the dog's behaviour to really settle down after a neuter op if there has already been aggression problems, maybe the initial drop in testosterone isn't enough to stop existing behaviour?

india

Thank you all again (can't seem to find the thanks button-can someone help me! )

Book ordered and on its way, thanks again adrenalinjunkie.

Just an update, the last few days have been very good. I don't want to get too excited but touch wood its been such a difference. Now I'm not sure if it is just the effects of surgery etc but they have been a lot calmer and sleeping a lot. Also they seem to be more responsive to my 'NO'!

The different things I have been doing are, feeding them in different rooms. Giving the one we think is more dominant and jealous more attention. Not stroking or petting the less dominant one in front of the dominant one as much. Went on separate walks. Started teaching new tricks like to sit down and wait in the same spot as we hold a treat in the hand and walking away saying 'stay' the whole time. we are also making them work for every treat, not just giving one here and there.

As mentioned I hope it's a mixture of the way we are handling them and the less testosterone and not just effects of surgery. Fingers crossed!

Also, at 10 months old I hope that we are not too late with the new behaviour regime and they are responsive to it. What do you guys think?

LucyBliss

It's never too late! At that age, they're still pups and with repetition and firmness on your part, they will get what you're telling them to do. And the more you are in charge, the more they will turn to you for what to do. I've discovered that with one of mine - he was a very difficult pup. Made me cry lots trying to train him. But I stuck with it, faked being the head of the household until both of us began to believe it and now, instead of going off half crazy, he will look to me for direction when he's unsure what to do in a situation.

Also, my grandmother's dog came to live with me when she was eight. She was indoors a lot more in my house and had to learn a new set of house rules and all that's involved with a new owner. After a few weeks, it was like she'd always been here. So a dog at any age will pick up on what you're telling them once they trust you and you're consistent in what you expect of them.

Best of luck!

Cherry Blossom

india wrote: »

Thank you all again (can't seem to find the thanks button-can someone help me! )

I think you have to have a certain number of posts before you can do that (25 I think)

I glad things are improving for you.

india

Hi all,

Thought I would update our situation, its been 4 weeks now since neutering and wanted to share the progress with you guys.

Well the first week after neutering we had an episode or two of fighting...nothing too serious but the aggression was still there, and we just sprayed with water and they stopped immediately.

For the next three weeks to date there has been no fighting. Well there has been lots of play fighting that starts to get a bit aggressive but no episodes like before where they are going to kill each other. Generally their behaviour has been better and more responsive. I feel neutering has definitely calmed them down a little along with us becoming a bit stricter.

But don't get me wrong, they are still a handful. We can't keep our eyes off them for one minute and they are always up to something. Anyone thinking of getting two puppies together....think again!! you have been warned!

So their behaviour at the moment is better, but they are play fighting a lot, chasing each other around the house, jumping on top of each other and biting each other (not hard) and although it is not the killer aggression showing as before it can get a little too hyper for our liking. We are a little unsure as to whether we should just leave them at it or be splitting them up all the time. We tend to split them up as it gets a little too much sometimes and we're always on edge that it will turn in to one of those horrible fights that they used to have.

Also, they seem to be full of energy all the time. Some days they are in and out of the back garden, eating muck running in with it, digging the flower beds. and one gets a twig or bit of muck and teases the other one until they chase each other around the garden. I know this is probably just normal dog behaviour but some days they just do not listen to us however many times we tell them off. Is this just them having a bad day?

So will they calm down? They are nearly a year old and its just constant! They are great generally but some days i reckon its harder that bringing up children!!

Best thing we ever did though, was getting them neutered!!

Cherry Blossom

What are you feeding them OP? You may be able to bring down the energy levels slightly by feeding a lower protein food, they should have most of their growing done by now so a change of food could work. Some also have additives that can make some dogs a bit crazy.

Tranceypoo

I would agree with AJ re their diet, some foods can make dogs more hyper than others

Also, what's their exercise routine? Are they being walked at least once every single day? Running in and out of the garden isn't really enough for them.

Graces7

boomerang wrote: »

Not sure that's right, TMD. It can take weeks or months before they are infertile, but there should be an immediate drop in testosterone.

it is true. This is why many advocate juvenile neutering as there is then no hormone memory.

Takes months for it to clear the system and more re the behaviour.

Reminds me of when I had chickens. As my old cockerel had had one stroke already and recovered, I bought in a youngster. He was so tame, would follow me around and never a thought of aggro to the old one. The man I bought him off guffawed when I told him this as he was more experienced.

Come spring, the testosterone kicked in and the aggression! They would lock in fight and even a bucket of water availed nothing.

Need catching before.

Graces7

Tranceypoo wrote: »

I would agree with AJ re their diet, some foods can make dogs more hyper than others

Also, what's their exercise routine? Are they being walked at least once every single day? Running in and out of the garden isn't really enough for them.

Great; wear them out! Works every time. Ball games work with our wee JRT cross who is always hyper.

LucyBliss

india wrote: »

But don't get me wrong, they are still a handful. We can't keep our eyes off them for one minute and they are always up to something. Anyone thinking of getting two puppies together....think again!! you have been warned!

So their behaviour at the moment is better, but they are play fighting a lot, chasing each other around the house, jumping on top of each other and biting each other (not hard) and although it is not the killer aggression showing as before it can get a little too hyper for our liking. We are a little unsure as to whether we should just leave them at it or be splitting them up all the time. We tend to split them up as it gets a little too much sometimes and we're always on edge that it will turn in to one of those horrible fights that they used to have.

Also, they seem to be full of energy all the time. Some days they are in and out of the back garden, eating muck running in with it, digging the flower beds. and one gets a twig or bit of muck and teases the other one until they chase each other around the garden. I know this is probably just normal dog behaviour but some days they just do not listen to us however many times we tell them off. Is this just them having a bad day?

So will they calm down? They are nearly a year old and its just constant! They are great generally but some days i reckon its harder that bringing up children!!

Best thing we ever did though, was getting them neutered!!

Oh, this takes me back! We got two pups at the same time like you and it's not for the faint hearted or for those who give up easily. It's challenging but it can be a lot of fun and enjoyment.

I have found that them knowing something one week and forgetting it the next to be par for the course at that age. And remember, they don't really settle down until they're between 2 and 3 years of age. Mine will be four next month and in the past year, I have seen more and more of the work that I put into them come to fruition. They used to go ape when people would come into the house from pure excitement and I'd to have to spend five to ten minutes alternating between reinforcing company manners and entertaining the guests. These days, they bark as the door is opened, they watch carefully to see if it's an old friend or a new friend, and then they go to their beds and lie there and snooze. Such a difference.

The energy is a part of them being pups and you probably notice it more because they are in effect the other's toy. They're the same age so they have the same energy levels and are hyper-ing each other up. You're right to interrupt them from time to time - I know that I'd have to clap my hands or knock on the floor and more often than not, I'd end up sitting with the toys trying to distract them from their rowdy game. And when they went through a phase where their loud games got louder in the evenings just as I was sitting down to watch TV, I did separate them with one watching TV with me in one room and the other in another room with my mother. We used to do that every so often and it was nice to have one on one time with the dogs.

When you have them down the garden, do you hide treats around? I found this to be a great game because it got them using their nose and it gave a purpose to them running around the garden. Plus it does burn off a bit of energy because they're having to use their brains to figure out what they're looking for and where it is.

What you're going through sounds perfectly normal to me so don't lose heart! It's all repetition at this point and they will challenge you to see how far they can get away with something. This isn't them being dominant or you not being a good owner, this is their brains working and growing and learning. And by challenging, I don't mean that they growl at you or anything, I just mean when you give a command and they look as if to say "whatever luv, I'll be over here trying to rummage through the bin!" Once you insist that they do as you say and you keep insisting every day, they'll soon cop on that there's no point in not listening to you because it won't get them anywhere.

Like I said, mine are four now. They have calmed down so much - yes, they need their exercise and they like to have their games where they bounce around the garden and bark at one another - but there's none of that extreme craziness and they're a lot quicker to calm down now.

Best of luck, OP!

india

LucyBliss,

thanks so much for your post. It has given me so much heart knowing they will calm down and this is all normal. We seem to be telling them off or stopping them doing something every minute or two. They are just nuts and i am pulling my hair out at the moment!

Its so true what you say about them changing all the time, week by week. The latest is one of them just seems to get a crazy burst of energy at around 9-10pm every night. He just goes running around ballistic, biting chewing and basically just annoying the other one- and us! Its only just started, like around a week or so, just as we are winding down! And when they get that hyper they just don't listen to us. Oh its frustrating!!

So should we let them play fight with each other? It seems so innocent although sometimes gets a little rough so we stop them with a spray of water. Its probably just innocent but i think we are just we are on edge in case they fight like they used to before they got neutered.

Tranceypoo they are walked most days. Unless it is really wet (as when they get home wet it really riles them up!).

Adrenalinejunkie, we are feeding them some holistic dog food- low in protein and all natural ingredients and herbs etc. We make sure not to feed them late aswell-like 7pm max

Well i suppose its nice to know that only another 2-3 years and they will calm down ha ha!!

Having said all that they are great and love them to bits. They are so cute when they cuddle up to us at night, bless em!!!

LucyBliss

india wrote: »

So should we let them play fight with each other? It seems so innocent although sometimes gets a little rough so we stop them with a spray of water. Its probably just innocent but i think we are just we are on edge in case they fight like they used to before they got neutered.

I say absolutely let them play with one another. All you have to do is keep an eye on them and be guided by the noise level. Once you hear a difference between the regular play time barks and growls to something that you feel is a little more tense, then you can intervene. Most the time you breaking in at that moment will ease any possible tension or escalation. A hand clap, a loud "Hey!" will do it.
I have three dogs, two are pups from the same litter (Meg & Jack). They are slightly bigger than the older dog, Rosie, who is their mother. (She was a rescue, pregnant when we got her). Jack will often go over the bed Rosie's lying on and bark at her and try to move the bed with his paws while she rolls over and tries to 'bite' his muzzle. There's a lot of noise and posturing and pawing at the bed, most of it harmless, but occasionally I have to break in on their game when it gets too boisterous. Then Meg & Jack sometimes play and chase one another around the garden and like that, when the growls become less "Whee! You can't catch me!" and more "I'm going to headbutt you back to the stone age if you don't stop chasing me!!" I call them back.

Sometimes I have to stop what I'm doing, take out the box of toys and get down on the floor and play with them, if my breaking them up isn't working. Now that they're older, they're not the bundles of wound up puppy energy that they were so a good walk sorts them out. That has only happened in the past year.

I know that it can seem so hard when you think "2 more years of this?? Where's the booze?!" but it's very worth it. And yes, all is forgiven even now, when they cuddle up beside me on the couch and fall asleep. That kind of love and affection is priceless!

Any pictures, india?

india

Hey Lucybliss

Thanks for all the great advice,

Sorry for late reply, have been trying to post a pic but can't figure it out...computers have never been my strong point!!

I've noticed lately something new, they actually go really hyper when they are tired! So strange but when they are running around ballistic, we take one each in to separate rooms and they fall asleep within minutes-it's great!!

Will post more updates soon.....