'Traveller housing not wanted here,' say locals

Paparazzo

RiseToTheTop wrote: »

Who are these people who refuse travellers housing?

Damn RACISTS, xenophobes, discriminationists. Every human has a right to housing a full life and social welfare for as long as they want.

:rolleyes:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=77436005&postcount=16

Freddie59

Mickeroo wrote: »

normality is entirely subjective.

Of course it is. Racing home-built sulkies on a dual carriageway while the horse sh!ts itself all over the place seems perfectly normal.;):rolleyes:

Freddie59

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

With Travellers, as with any other group of people, there are decent ones and not so decent ones and a lot of people on this thread would do well to recognise that. You cannot and should not tar them all with one brush. Its bigotry and petty snobbery imo and nothing more.

I can think of much worse types to have as neighbours.....murderers, rapists, paedophiles/child molesters, drug dealers, gangsters etc.

As I've already asked........what is the ratio of decent ones to "non-decent" ones in both groupings? Bigotry and petty snobbery? My hole. It's reality. And people wanting a quiet life. Which they are entitled to.

Freddie59

Mickeroo wrote: »

I don't condone FGM but I have no problem with it being practiced within any culture that does.

I'd say those its practiced on will be grateful for your support.:rolleyes: If, let's say, child slavery was "acceptable" in a "culture" would you also have no problem with it?

Freddie59

Mickeroo wrote: »

I mean western culture as in settled, predominantly white consumerist capitalist society. Travellers are not part of that particular culture because they don't fulfil many of the cultural norms within which is the very reason there is such a problem with them.

LOL.:D Some of the biggest "capitalists" are travellers.

Mickeroo

Freddie59 wrote: »

Of course it is. Racing home-built sulkies on a dual carriageway while the horse sh!ts itself all over the place seems perfectly normal.;):rolleyes:

Obviously it doesn't seem normal to you because you're not a traveller which is entirely the point I was making.

Freddie59 wrote: »

As I've already asked........what is the ratio of decent ones to "non-decent" ones in both groupings? Bigotry and petty snobbery? My hole. It's reality. And people wanting a quiet life. Which they are entitled to.

Actually a fair point hidden in there somewhere. There is probably a disproportionate amount of crime in travelling communities compared to settled, but its nothing new that minority groups generally have higher crime rates. It all comes down to equality in that regard, and I acknowledge if the traveller community(as with any minority here) is ever to be seen as equal in Irish society it would require them to completely assimilate into the rest of irish society which would also require removing prejudice from both sides of the fence imho.

Freddie59 wrote: »

I'd say those its practiced on will be grateful for your support.:rolleyes: If, let's say, child slavery was "acceptable" in a "culture" would you also have no problem with it?

I'm not saying i agree with it on a moral level, of course i don't, but if its the norm in a culture that I don't belong to then its not really any of my business. Obviously it would be an issue if something that extreme was carried out on Irish soil, you're talking about breaking full on social taboos in those cases. This also goes to show however that what is a taboo to you and I is not necessarily a taboo to those outside our culture.

Freddie59 wrote: »

LOL.:D Some of the biggest "capitalists" are travellers.

true to a point, but irrelevant as they still don't conform to the majority of western cultural norms as i said, otherwise there wouldn't be a problem with them.

Dudess

Jeez, if something barbaric is practised as part of a culture, then **** the culture - barbaric is barbaric.

Mickeroo

Dudess wrote: »

Jeez, if something barbaric is practised as part of a culture, then **** the culture - barbaric is barbaric.

I think FGM and child slavery are barbaric too. Once a culture is considered barbaric though its very easy to justify wiping out that culture. Thats pretty much why genocide is such a common thing in our world and thats why i feel its dangerous for people to think their own culture is superior to any other.

Obviously FGM and child slavery are very extreme examples and there's absolutely no way they can be justified to me, you or anyone else on here I would think. You could indeed make a very good case for eradicating cultures that practice those things.

Anyway I think this has been dragged off topic enough so i will bow out of the debate. I'm going to go watch the football and eat some chocolate.

the_syco

If they want homes built for them, they can live in an empty apartments block. If they don't like it, tough ****.

mikemac1

the_syco wrote: »

If they want homes built for them, they can live in an empty apartments block. If they don't like it, tough ****.

Ah here now, you can't ask them to live in standard council houses.

You need a bay for the caravan and you need the house adapted to their standards

It is the policy of the Council to provide group and standard housing options as well as residential caravan park bays, for the accommodation of travellers who are indigenous to the administrative county of Fingal in accordance with the assessment of need carried out under the provisions of the Housing (Traveller Accommodation) Act 1998.

In so providing the Council recognises travellers’ cultural identity as a minority group some of whom may travel, and strives to accommodate travellers in a culturally appropriate way catering for their social needs.

Council houses are for everyone else on the list

That's Fingal, a quick google and Galway and Tipp South are much the same.
I'd guess every council has pretty similar policies

Freddie59

Mickeroo wrote: »

Obviously it doesn't seem normal to you because you're not a traveller which is entirely the point I was making.

Not just to me. To the wider society.

Mickeroo wrote: »

I'm not saying i agree with it on a moral level, of course i don't, but if its the norm in a culture that I don't belong to then its not really any of my business. Obviously it would be an issue if something that extreme was carried out on Irish soil, you're talking about breaking full on social taboos in those cases. This also goes to show however that what is a taboo to you and I is not necessarily a taboo to those outside our culture.

Then you're morally obliged to do something about it Mick.

Mickeroo wrote: »

true to a point, but irrelevant as they still don't conform to the majority of western cultural norms as i said, otherwise there wouldn't be a problem with them.

Not conforming is the root of the problem really. Society has evolved. The travellers are duty-bound to do the same. For example, fifty years ago children went to school without shoes. As a society we have evolved to ensure that this cannot occur.

Freddie59

Dudess wrote: »

Jeez, if something barbaric is practised as part of a culture, then **** the culture - barbaric is barbaric.

Dudess, I'm getting worried. We're agreeing on something!;):)

bonzos

The majority of travellers in Sligo have plenty of money,the park their new range rovers and bmw's in disabled parking spaces and have no respect for the law.Why should the taxpayer provide a house for someone driving a new range rover???? check out the youtube video to see what respect they have for the law or other people....no action was taken by the gardai over this yet everyday they are dishing out speeding tickets on the dual carriageway for people doing a few kph over the limit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qaiIxo3qf8

dark crystal

mikemac1 wrote: »

It is the policy of the Council to provide group and standard housing options as well as residential caravan park bays, for the accommodation of travellers who are indigenous to the administrative county of Fingal in accordance with the assessment of need carried out under the provisions of the Housing (Traveller Accommodation) Act 1998.

In so providing the Council recognises travellers’ cultural identity as a minority group some of whom may travel, and strives to accommodate travellers in a culturally appropriate way catering for their social needs.

Now this makes no sense to me at all!

Why give someone a house who, in theory, is likely to just abandon it to go travelling in their second home (i.e, caravan)

Surely if Travellers want to become settled in a house provided to them by the council, there's no need for them to need that caravan any more. I'm not getting the logic there at all.
They can't have it both ways, especially with so many people desperately in need of a house on the waiting list.

dj jarvis

FinnLizzy wrote: »

You'd swear that only Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Cavan are allowed to have established stereotypes. Every other county seems to be open season.

"Yerman there is from Roscommon, I hear they don't shower!"

well normally i would agree .............but

just got out of the reptile house in dublin zoo not 2 hours ago, me my kids and my mates kids all had to leave in a hurry after a group of travelers (15 /20 ) came in , and im not spoofing or making anything up to belittle the people involved ,

but as me and my daughter went in to have a look at one of the exhibits , standing next to the group - the BANG of SH1T of the adults was over powering - i jest not

seriously, does no one in the " clan " pull them aside and give them the heads up that they STINK ??

now im not taring all travelers with this brush of mine - just this group in question

now if this same group wanted to move into a field next to me, i would not be best pleased

so , i know the shower thing is a stereotype with travelers - but in this case it was 100% on the money

My mate had a hang over, and when we got outside he was white and was close to pukeing his ring up - first thing he said was " christ it was like being gassed "

BeerWolf

Can't blame anyone for not wanting travellers nearby - they've built up themselves a nice reputation of being a filthy lot... areas they stay at generally turn into dump sites...

hondasam

I went to school with travellers, lived next door to travellers and know a good few of them who are sound. I know more of them who are not sound tbh. Would I want a halting site in the field beside me, not a chance.
There is a few families living a few miles from me and they are not the worst but not the best either. It seems no matter how good the neighbours are to them they cannot resist stealing the odd thing which is very annoying as they have lived in this area for over 25yrs.

bbam

BeerWolf wrote: »

Can't blame anyone for not wanting travellers nearby - they've built up themselves a nice reputation of being a filthy lot... areas they stay at generally turn into dump sites...

Dead right.
If they didn't treat the whole world as their personal toilet and dumping ground. If they didn't rob everything that has any value, if they didn't hold people to ransom by 29 caravans landing on their farms, if they stopped all this crap and made a genuine effort to live cleaner more social lives then maybe they would be more accepted by the general public.
Also I hate this "it's only a small minority" lark that you hear. 99% seem to have total disregard for society and the country and it even seems that a huge proportion go out of their ways to be nasty people to live near.
They need to demonstrate the ability to behave before another red cent is spent providing housing or facilities that they will wreck and have total disregard for.

I would truly die if they were to be sited anywhere near my locality.

charlemont

lividduck wrote: »

So long as the locals don't do this
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/travellers-faced-threats-before-home-set-on-fire-3074317.html

Travellers should respond to that disgraceful attack and create mayhem in that community until someone talks, Then they can take care of the culprits house.


"Mr McDonagh said his children had been progressing well at school but had, in the last two years, become subject to bullying and name calling. "They are saying to them: 'Go back to your caravan, go back to the side of the road.'"

Local Green Party councillor, Malcolm Noonan, said there was widespread discrimination against Traveller families like the McDonaghs, who have not come to the notice of gardai."

"Garda sources in Kilkenny said Mr McDonagh was a man of good standing and they were taking the attack and the threats to him and his family very seriously."

Doesn't seem like this man is a knacker at all so he's been targeted for nothing really. I'm sure the area is full of boggers and bigoted thickos anyway.

bbam

charlemont wrote: »

Travellers should respond to that disgraceful attack and create mayhem in that community until someone talks, Then they can take care of the culprits house.

I wouldn't condone it but in fairness your response is exactly why people find travellers a problem in the first place.
It would take generations of travellers behaving properly before they would start to be widely accepted by the wider community (what is it now, a new generation of travellers every 12-15 years)

Ellis Dee

Some of the comments on here make me fear I'll abandon my multicultural, Nordic ways and attitudes and become a good practising Irish Catholic again. before you know it I'll be thumping my craw and asking Our Lord why the fcuk He created Travellers to annoy decent people like us. What we need in Ireland are efficient systems to stop benefit fraud (by everyone) and enforce public order. then it won't matter to me if the Council decide to put Al Quaeda in a camp beside me. Just as long as I know they will be obliged to respect the law.:D:D

dj jarvis

Ellis Dee wrote: »

Some of the comments on here make me fear I'll abandon my multicultural, Nordic ways and attitudes and become a good practising Irish Catholic again. before you know it I'll be thumping my craw and asking Our Lord why the fcuk He created Travellers to annoy decent people like us. What we need in Ireland are efficient systems to stop benefit fraud (by everyone) and enforce public order. then it won't matter to me if the Council decide to put Al Quaeda in a camp beside me. Just as long as I know they will be obliged to respect the law.:D:D

i agree 99.99% with you , but for the highlighted comment

the problem is the group in question DONT respect the law , or as i stands anything as far as i can see..........

this is the crux of the issue , if i had travelers living next door , who did not steal , or destroy the local environment and lived to the social norms of my other neighbors then i would have NO issue with them at all.

problem is this never happens - so whos fault is it that no one wants them as neighbors ? not mine

bbam

Ellis Dee wrote: »

Some of the comments on here make me fear I'll abandon my multicultural, Nordic ways and attitudes and become a good practising Irish Catholic again. before you know it I'll be thumping my craw and asking Our Lord why the fcuk He created Travellers to annoy decent people like us. What we need in Ireland are efficient systems to stop benefit fraud (by everyone) and enforce public order. then it won't matter to me if the Council decide to put Al Quaeda in a camp beside me. Just as long as I know they will be obliged to respect the law.:D:D

Your right.
I hope you have 10 or 20 caravans of the worst of them land and camp around your neighbourhood. After a few months of the filth, smell, crime and intimidation you might be singing a different tune.

SWL

Ellis Dee wrote: »

Some of the comments on here make me fear I'll abandon my multicultural, Nordic ways and attitudes and become a good practising Irish Catholic again. before you know it I'll be thumping my craw and asking Our Lord why the fcuk He created Travellers to annoy decent people like us. What we need in Ireland are efficient systems to stop benefit fraud (by everyone) and enforce public order. then it won't matter to me if the Council decide to put Al Quaeda in a camp beside me. Just as long as I know they will be obliged to respect the law.:D:D

Considering how and where you live presently that’s hardly a huge leap.

MadYaker

bonzos wrote: »

The majority of travellers in Sligo have plenty of money,the park their new range rovers and bmw's in disabled parking spaces and have no respect for the law.Why should the taxpayer provide a house for someone driving a new range rover???? check out the youtube video to see what respect they have for the law or other people....no action was taken by the gardai over this yet everyday they are dishing out speeding tickets on the dual carriageway for people doing a few kph over the limit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qaiIxo3qf8

So you're saying the majority of travellers in sligo drive range rovers and BMWs? Bollocks. Most of them are quite poor. There are some wealthy families who are probably involved in the drug trade but most of them are poor.

Coriolanus

Mickeroo wrote: »

I don't condone FGM but I have no problem with it being practiced within any culture that does.

Moral relatavism at its very worst.

Ellis Dee

dj jarvis wrote: »

i agree 99.99% with you , but for the highlighted comment

the problem is the group in question DONT respect the law , or as i stands anything as far as i can see..........

this is the crux of the issue , if i had travelers living next door , who did not steal , or destroy the local environment and lived to the social norms of my other neighbors then i would have NO issue with them at all.

problem is this never happens - so whos fault is it that no one wants them as neighbors ? not mine

I agree. The solution is to have adequate and effective law enforcement, backed up by education and training programmes that will give Travellers an incentive to work and live within the legitimate economy, paying taxes when they can and receiving public assistance when verifiably necessary. I.e. the same as everyone else. There are far too many people ripping off the welfare system and flouting the law in other respects as well. The answer is to crack down on them - including Travellers. A mixture of carrot and stick is needed to get those citizens who despoil the environment start taking care of it instead. No matter how inventive we are, it will take time to get Travellers and Country people understand each other better, and both may eventually modify their behaviour towards members of the other group. Or so I'd like to see happen, anyway, because the Travellers are here to stay.:)

SWL wrote: »

Considering how and where you live presently that’s hardly a huge leap.

You seem terribly well informed about my present living circumstances and location. I wonder what your source is?:rolleyes: Perhaps a little bird that told you all about me?:D No doubt the same one that gives you simple answers and solutions to the many complex and often seemingly intractable questions of mutual hostility and mistrust between the Travellers and Country people?:)

RiseToTheTop

I think a system should be implemented in that if a traveller has been in employment for many years, doesn't have a criminal record and is judged to be of good character, he should get a place.

I mean I don't discriminate, but IMO the travellers that have very long crime records and are proven to cause crime wherever they are, but they shouldn't be allowed settle in places where there are many people at all.

Born to Die

RiseToTheTop wrote: »

I think a system should be implemented in that if a traveller has been in employment for many years, doesn't have a criminal record and is judged to be of good character, he should get a place.

I mean I don't discriminate, but IMO the travellers that have very long crime records and are proven to cause crime wherever they are, but they shouldn't be allowed settle in places where there are many people at all.

Why would a traveller have to prove his good character?
Is this principle for all?

Freddie59

Dudess wrote: »

It isn't that simple to just "walk" in fairness from family, friends, a way of life. Silly thing to say tbh.

Not really. You have a choice. You make it. Plenty of normal people do. Should travellers be any different? And you call ME silly........:rolleyes::)

Freddie59

MadYaker wrote: »

Most of them are quite poor.

Of course they are.:rolleyes: Bollocks indeed.

byhookorbycrook

I often wonder at how provision must be made for a caravan and horses. I keep a horse, but pay for him to be stabled elsewhere as I don't have space. Why should this be provided to others for free?Horses are in my culture too,I grew up surrounded by them, but no council has offered my land to keep mine.Am I being discriminated against?No, I'm not, but the same rules should apply to everyone.

hondasam

MadYaker wrote: »

So you're saying the majority of travellers in sligo drive range rovers and BMWs? Bollocks. Most of them are quite poor. There are some wealthy families who are probably involved in the drug trade but most of them are poor.

They are no poorer than the rest of us, in fact a lot of them have more money than the rest of us.

the_syco

bonzos wrote: »

no action was taken by the gardai over this yet everyday they are dishing out speeding tickets on the dual carriageway for people doing a few kph over the limit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qaiIxo3qf8

Oh but to have an 18 wheeler go down that road... imagine how much crime would be stopped?

=-=

It's their culture to live off the state, to trespass where they want, and to be involved in criminality it would seem.

Ah, but "it's their culture" and you're racist if you think they should obey our laws, as it's not their laws as they never agreed to them

Johro

Dudess wrote: »

Your complaint wasn't a serious one - I agree, if you feel you can talk to them, go for that rather than something more drastic - but if it's really serious, intimidating stuff, that's just going by the behaviour, not writing them off due to being travellers.

Sure, no argument there.

Dudess

Freddie59 wrote: »

Dudess wrote: »

It isn't that simple to just "walk" in fairness from family, friends, a way of life. Silly thing to say tbh.

Not really. You have a choice. You make it. Plenty of normal people do. Should travellers be any different? And you call ME silly........:rolleyes::)

Not you, the comment. And others made it too. When you've roots put down, family, friends, just walking away from all that into the unknown is not always an option - disingenuous to say it is.

Johro

LilyCricket wrote: »

I certainly would not write them off

I would just chose to not have them living beside me, is all

But then aren't you pre-judging them? Which is what prejudice is. Just saying.
I'm not telling anyone off about it, I know we all do it to some extent, some of us make assumptions about fat people for instance, without ever knowing them or anything about their lives/backgrounds.
'They're all the same' is the kind of thing that bothers me. Coz they're not.
Especially concerning travellers, if you start of being decent with them they'll be decent with you. You'll get the odd idiot headcase but you'll find them anywhere.

byhookorbycrook

LilyCricket wrote: »

Especially concerning travellers, if you start of being decent with them they'll be decent with you. .

Not true, my mother gave clothes, bedding and anything she could spare. She was repaid by being broken into by the same family.

Freddie59

hondasam wrote: »

They are no poorer than the rest of us, in fact a lot of them have more money than the rest of us.

Yep. Waaaaay more.

Johro

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Not true, my mother gave clothes, bedding and anything she could spare. She was repaid by being broken into by the same family.

All of them? Oh. In that case, they're all cunts.
Ah you know what I mean. There's always exceptions.

Freddie59

Dudess wrote: »

Not you, the comment. And others made it too. When you've roots put down, family, friends, just walking away from all that into the unknown is not always an option - disingenuous to say it is.

In fairness Dudess, many people have walked away from "cultures". I personally know a family who have a culture of sheer violence. One of them is one of the nicest people you could meet. A very gentle soul. And he told me himself he had a choice. And made a choice to walk away from it.

Freddie59

Johro wrote: »

if you start of being decent with them they'll be decent with you.

In fairness, that's la la land. Did you red the earlier post about the chap who befriended the travellers. Then they broke into his house?

Johro

Freddie59 wrote: »

In fairness, that's la la land. Did you red the earlier post about the chap who befriended the travellers. Then they broke into his house?

Well, all I can say is that that's been my experience, and I live near Taghmon, Wexford, also known as Tinkertown.
The vast majority of settled travellers round here are no trouble at all.

FinnLizzy

MadYaker wrote: »

So you're saying the majority of travellers in sligo drive range rovers and BMWs? Bollocks. Most of them are quite poor. There are some wealthy families who are probably involved in the drug trade but most of them are poor.

If you want to know how well Sligo travellers treat our lovely county, here's an example of what they've done to a car park in town, and how comfortable they've made themselves.

If you look closely enough, you'll see a fúcking stable.

There's a thread on their antics already on Boards

Dudess

Freddie59 wrote: »

Johro wrote: »

if you start of being decent with them they'll be decent with you.

In fairness, that's la la land. Did you red the earlier post about the chap who befriended the travellers. Then they broke into his house?

To be fair, that's one incident. Reasonable to concede there are a lot of dodgy elements within traveller culture, but to say traveller = automatically no-good person - is wrong and unfair.

Johro

FinnLizzy wrote: »

If you want to know how well Sligo travellers treat our lovely county, here's an example of what they've done to a car park in town, and how comfortable they've made themselves.

If you look closely enough, you'll see a fúcking stable.

There's a thread on their antics already on Boards

There's several. Too many.
Here's some pics of how our general country folk treat 'our lovely counties'.
DSC00179.JPG

DSC00240.JPG

DSC00243.JPG

DSC00246.JPG

DSC00248.JPG

later12

Johro wrote: »

But then aren't you pre-judging them? Which is what prejudice is. Just saying.
I'm not telling anyone off about it, I know we all do it to some extent, some of us make assumptions about fat people for instance, without ever knowing them or anything about their lives/backgrounds.
'They're all the same' is the kind of thing that bothers me. Coz they're not.
Especially concerning travellers, if you start of being decent with them they'll be decent with you. You'll get the odd idiot headcase but you'll find them anywhere.

I do agree with you based solely on any encounter I've ever had with travellers.

On the other hand, we [who do not believe that travellers are an inherently bad or intrinsically dysfunctional people] should not be afraid of statistics either.

There is an enormous amount of travellers outside the labour market.
There is also an enormous amount of travellers who are inside the labour market but are unemployed.
There is an enormous amount of travellers who are illiterate, who have addictions, and who are in prison (relative to the general population).

But where some people see these as reasons to condemn travellers and walk away from the discussion, I think it behooves anyone with a concern about the educational, employment and health statistics concerning travellers to examine why these adverse risks are so embedded within the traveller population.

The point is not to judge them, but to at least acknowledge the likely expectations and the grim take on life that an individual can acquire when he or she grows up in a marginalised, disadvantaged community like no other in this country, and to examine reasonable steps to improve their lot.

Dudess

The problems you have listed seem to me to be accommodated by aspects of traveller culture in the first place. Poor sanitation, not always sending the kids to school, no family planning, violence a way of life.
And there are initiatives to help them. I disagree they are completely marginalised - much of it is by choice. It has been established that being separate from settled culture is important to many travellers.

FinnLizzy

Johro wrote: »

There's several. Too many.
Here's some pics of how our general country folk treat 'our lovely counties'.
DSC00179.JPG

DSC00240.JPG

DSC00243.JPG

DSC00246.JPG

DSC00248.JPG

That's pretty morbid. But it has nothing to do with the point I'm making about travellers settling into a public car park, with a stable for the horses and bonfires in the middle of a town.

And unless you know who's fúcking up the environment in those pictures, as opposed to the ones in my links, who's presence is actually the problem, then I have no idea what point you're trying to make.

Johro

later12 wrote: »

I do agree with you based solely on any encounter I've ever had with travellers.

On the other hand, we [who do not believe that travellers are an inherently bad or intrinsically dysfunctional people] should not be afraid of statistics either.

There is an enormous amount of travellers outside the labour market.
There is also an enormous amount of travellers who are inside the labour market but are unemployed.
There is an enormous amount of travellers who are illiterate, who have addictions, and who are in prison (relative to the general population).

But where some people see these as reasons to condemn travellers and walk away from the discussion, I think it behooves anyone with a concern about the educational, employment and health statistics concerning travellers to examine why these adverse risks are so embedded within the traveller population.

The point is not to judge them, but to at least acknowledge the likely expectations and the grim take on life that an individual can acquire when he or she grows up in a marginalised, disadvantaged community like no other in this country, and to examine reasonable steps to improve their lot.

Yeah my point is mainly that not all travellers are the same. I'm aware of lots of problems with the traveller community, I'm not looking at it with rose tinted glasses, and tbh I'm not so sure they're all that disadvantaged. All I'm saying is that having a point of view which says they're all scumbags and they should stay the hell away doesn't improve the situation one bit.