'Traveller housing not wanted here,' say locals

bbam

Travellers are their own worst enemies. They want to live their own society, disregard all laws and decency but want society to bend over backwards to support their unique way of life.
If you think it's bad now wait until they get "ethnic minority" status. Jesus they'll have the run if the place and well be obliged and compelled by EU law to financially support their way of life.
They (99% of them) treat us like dirt and have no regard for us or our property, why on earth should we be any different towards them?

PickledLime

I'll refrain from posting my feelings about these people because i'll be banned from boards pretty quickly.

suicide_circus

PickledLime wrote: »

I'll refrain from posting my feelings about these people because i'll be banned from boards pretty quickly.

we dont want your hate-filled truth in here!

Born to Die

Some of my friends are travellers, good decent people like my settled friends. I even have friends who originally came here from other countries.

I just think of them as friends.

Duggys Housemate

I have friends from other counties. I say friends, maybe colleagues is a better term. I tolerate them.

**Vai**

Meow_Meow wrote: »

Oh gee, sorry- should I have talked about Hitler's wonderful attributes when speaking of his extermination of millions of people? For someone who doesn't agree with his methods, you sure do want to adopt them

See this is what Im talking about. Thats me done, thanks for the debate.

Nodin wrote: »

Or - as is far more likely - we'd not only still disagree but be amazed at just how wrong you are.

Read a book.

As I said at the beginning, I wouldnt want them living near me. Wouldnt want Adolf living near me either. Both are sub-human in my opinion.



mod: banned.

Millicent

**Vai** wrote: »

Both are sub-human in my opinion.

Fucking charming. Does no one here get the irony of people acting badly when bad is all that's ever expected of them? There are some posters here who would leap to the defence of ghettoised black Americans but when it's a community on their doorsteps, it's alright to have a completely different stance.

Are there problems in the Traveller community? Absolutely. Is referring to them as "sub-human" ever going to help matters? Not a chance.

dr.bollocko

mod:
**Vai** banned

Born to Die

**Vai** wrote: »

See this is what Im talking about. Thats me done, thanks for the debate.



Read a book.

As I said at the beginning, I wouldnt want them living near me. Wouldnt want Adolf living near me either. Both are sub-human in my opinion.

You have being pushing your agenda in what you think is a clever way but as always the truth comes out. I take serious offence to you referring to a section of Irish society, some of which I refer to as friends as sub-human. However as it is just an internet forum I won't get too bothered about it.

Roll on, I am sure it's your way of getting your kicks.

dr.bollocko

The lad's banned so we'll move on.

Please continue to report any posts which you feel cross the line. The reports help us in any case even if they don't appear to get actioned all the time.

laoch na mona

why is discrimination against travellers tolerated
if anyone said they didn't want africians living near then no one would support them

Duggys Housemate

laoch na mona wrote: »

why is discrimination against travellers tolerated
if anyone said they didn't want africians living near then no one would support them

The whole thread has been dealing with that issue.

WallyGUFC

laoch na mona wrote: »

why is discrimination against travellers tolerated
if anyone said they didn't want africians living near then no one would support them

I've met nice Africans. I've never once met a nice, law-abiding traveller and don't expect to.

laoch na mona

WallyGUFC wrote: »

I've met nice Africans. I've never once met a nice, law-abiding traveller and don't expect to.

thats blatant discrimination

bbam

laoch na mona wrote: »

thats blatant discrimination

No.
I'd say you'll find that it's about spot on. I've seen or heard of no evidence to prove otherwise.

Millicent

bbam wrote: »

No.
I'd say you'll find that it's about spot on. I've seen or heard of no evidence to prove otherwise.

Well, if anecdotal evidence is all it takes, how about the guy a few posts before who said some of his friends were Travellers?

hondasam

WallyGUFC wrote: »

I've met nice Africans. I've never once met a nice, law-abiding traveller and don't expect to.

Not all travellers are bad, there are some who are settled and have jobs. A friend of mine is married to a traveller, she is not a traveller, both of them work and are law abiding.
It's not easy for travellers to break away from their families but some do manage it.

FinnLizzy

Millicent wrote: »

Well, if anecdotal evidence is all it takes, how about the guy a few posts before who said some of his friends were Travellers?

Anecdotal evidence, overwhelmingly negative statistics and anti-social behaviour experienced in every major town, but hey, who's taking notes?

And we expect people in general to be nice. If it's such a groundbreaking achievement for a traveller to be social, there's something wrong.

Millicent

FinnLizzy wrote: »

Anecdotal evidence, overwhelmingly negative statistics and anti-social behaviour experienced in every major town, but hey, who's taking notes?

And we expect people in general to be nice. If it's such a groundbreaking achievement for a traveller to be social, there's something wrong.

Who said it was a "groundbreaking achievement". If that refers to my post, it was a counterpoint to someone who said he'd never met a nice Traveller since apparently this thread is all about anecdotal evidence.

Where are your overwhelming negative statistics? What statistics do you refer to?

FinnLizzy

Millicent wrote: »

Who said it was a "groundbreaking achievement". If that refers to my post, it was a counterpoint to someone who said he'd never met a nice Traveller since apparently this thread is all about anecdotal evidence.

Where are your overwhelming negative statistics? What statistics do you refer to?

The unemployment rate in male travellers is well above 50%. The constant reports of travellers feuds. Even the anecdotal evidence is enough to go by.

I started this thread, and gave a few links throughout relating to my experiences with them in Sligo. If you have mainly positive experiences with travellers, contradicting this thread, and most of Irish society, then you must live on the set of Wanderly Wagon!

Millicent

FinnLizzy wrote: »

The unemployment rate in male travellers is well above 50%. The constant reports of travellers feuds. Even the anecdotal evidence is enough to go by.

I started this thread, and gave a few links throughout relating to my experiences with them in Sligo. If you have mainly positive experiences with travellers, contradicting this thread, and most of Irish society, then you must live on the set of Wanderly Wagon!

Because my experience doesn't coalesce with yours, I must live on a defunct TV show?

People complain about high unemployment figures in the same breath as they complain about crime in the Traveller community.

People complain about those high unemployment figures while also ignoring the fact that there is a high illiteracy rate in the Traveller community. Did you know, as an example of why those illiteracy rates are high, that Travellers were at one stage shoved into "special classes" regardless of ability or skill? This included leaving them to draw pictures or play games instead of learning anything. This situation carried over to relatively recently; in 1989, only one third of Traveller students were fully integrated into the school system. (Third paragraph)

There are clear correlations between lack of education, poverty and marginalised ethnic groups across the world. Take this study from America which shows that those with a college education were severely less likely to be incarcerated for crimes and those who had dropped out of high school were vastly more likely to be in prison. (29 per cent of black men under 40 who had dropped out of high school were in jail at some point in 2000, for example.)

Given that burglaries, for example, rise in times of recession motivated by poverty, crime among a community where there is high unemployment is not surprising. That said, even groups like Pavee Point, recognise that there is crime within the Traveller community (see page three); that doesn't mean we write off a whole community for the actions of some.

Some more things to consider: Travellers still die earlier and of preventable diseases. Suicide rates are massive too.

Travellers face huge discrimination in Ireland as this thread proves. It's a Catch 22 situation; people think they behave badly so they discriminate against them. In turn, Travellers experience less opportunities so have more cause to turn to crime. It's a cycle that needs to be broken.

Now, as I have said, there are aspects of the Traveller community, especially more traditional roles, that I have issues with, particularly in relation to gender roles. However, I have similar issues with certain Muslim factions and their treatment of gender. That doesn't mean I right off all Muslims because, you know, that would be stupid, ignorant and biased.

dark crystal

Millicent wrote: »

Because my experience doesn't coalesce with yours, I must live on a defunct TV show?

People complain about high unemployment figures in the same breath as they complain about crime in the Traveller community.

People complain about those high unemployment figures while also ignoring the fact that there is a high illiteracy rate in the Traveller community. Did you know, as an example of why those illiteracy rates are high, that Travellers were at one stage shoved into "special classes" regardless of ability or skill? This included leaving them to draw pictures or play games instead of learning anything. This situation carried over to relatively recently; in 1989, only one third of Traveller students were fully integrated into the school system. (Third paragraph)

There are clear correlations between lack of education, poverty and marginalised ethnic groups across the world.

Given that burglaries, for example, rise in times of recession motivated by poverty, crime among a community where there is high unemployment is not surprising. That said, even groups like Pavee Point, recognise that there is crime within the Traveller community (see page three); that doesn't mean we write off a whole community for the actions of some.

Some more things to consider: Travellers still die earlier and of preventable diseases. Suicide rates are massive too.

Travellers face huge discrimination in Ireland as this thread proves. It's a Catch 22 situation; people think they behave badly so they discriminate against them. In turn, Travellers experience less opportunities so have more cause to turn to crime. It's a cycle that needs to be broken.

Now, as I have said, there are aspects of the Traveller community, especially more traditional roles, that I have issues with, particularly in relation to gender roles. However, I have similar issues with certain Muslim factions and their treatment of gender. That doesn't mean I right off all Muslims because, you know, that would be stupid, ignorant and biased.

Millicent, traveller children these days are given ample help when it comes to education. Free school buses, extra help in the classroom, educational allowances etc., yet absenteeism is still rife within the travelling community. Many children are encouraged to either get involved in the 'family business' (boys) or get married as young as possible (girls), so education is not seen as a priority in the culture. This is why so many are illiterate.

What can you do when help is offered in abundance, but not taken up. Travellers complain a lot about discrimination, yet when offered equal (and in some cases superior) opportunities, many still don't take them up.

There is also the undeniable lack of respect for the environment they show when occupying halting sites. How is it fair that if I go out tomorrow and dump a bag of rubbish on the roadside, I will get a hefty fine, yet when travellers leave a rubbish tip on land they have occupied, they are not made to pay for the massive cleaning bill left for the state to subsidise.

Sorry, but it does seem that the travelling community does a lot of 'taking', but not very much 'giving'. This is what many people have a problem with.

Dudess

I certainly don't write off all travellers Millicent, but I do think those who cause such grief - and it's not insignificant - need to take responsibility for themselves. I agree there's a strong element of not knowing any other way, and societal contempt reinforcing this, but how far can this explanation be taken? Especially when so many travellers actually want to be marginalised as a seperate culture? My neighbours are travellers and they're mostly grand, if the noisiest people on the estate, but once they're reasonably ok neighbours, I've no further issue - couldn't care less that they're travellers.

Millicent

dark crystal wrote: »

Millicent, traveller children these days are given ample help when it comes to education. Free school buses, extra help in the classroom, educational allowances etc., yet absenteeism is still rife within the travelling community. Many children are encouraged to either get involved in the 'family business' (boys) or get married as young as possible (girls), so education is not seen as a priority in the culture. This is why so many are illiterate.

What can you do when help is offered in abundance, but not taken up. Travellers complain a lot about discrimination, yet when offered equal (and in some cases superior) opportunities, many still don't take them up.

There is also the undeniable lack of respect for the environment they show when occupying halting sites. How is it fair that if I go out tomorrow and dump a bag of rubbish on the roadside, I will get a hefty fine, yet when travellers leave a rubbish tip on land they have occupied, they are not made to pay for the massive cleaning bill left for the state to subsidise.

Sorry, but it does seem that the travelling community does a lot of 'taking', but not very much 'giving'. This is what many people have a problem with.

To be honest, I kind of agree with you and I don't. While there are a lot of amenities offered in recent years (not all that long when you look at it) for educational opportunities for Traveller children, they still fall through the cracks. School authorities seem to look the other way when young Traveller women are taken out of education; if there is huge social pressure on the children to leave school from home and a complete disregard for whether they complete it from many schools' sides, where is the motivation to pursue education meant to come from?

I have said that the gender roles in the Traveller community don't sit well with me; however, just as in other communities, it is their place to change that. I would support change from within the community in relation to the gender roles; I'm not willing to impose it on them (outside of human rights' violations such as right to education, healthcare etc.) as it does no good for anyone.

I don't agree with the state not imposing fines for littering should reasonable facilities for rubbish disposal etc. be made available to Traveller people. However, Travellers, like anyone else, will take advantage of weak spots in law and order--same as their settled counterparts--so while they need to take responsibility for their actions, the state also needs to provide consequences.

I have no issue with accountability within the community; I have massive issues with the tarring of a whole community with the one brush. I know many Travellers who in no way fit the criteria set out in this thread.

Millicent

Dudess wrote: »

I certainly don't write off all travellers Millicent, but I do think those who cause such grief - and it's not insignificant - need to take responsibility for themselves. I agree there's a strong element of not knowing any other way, and societal contempt reinforcing this, but how far can this explanation be taken? Especially when so many travellers actually want to be marginalised as a seperate culture? My neighbours are travellers and they're mostly grand, if the noisiest people on the estate, but once they're reasonably ok neighbours, I've no further issue - couldn't care less that they're travellers.

There are problems in the community from what I can see. I'm not denying that. A level of responsibility does need to be taken. However, there are strong Traveller groups like Pavee Point acknowledging things like that and working for change but they are often slagged off on here. It seems Travellers can't win sometimes and they are the only group on Boards that I've ever seen an almost unanimous distaste for. Threads like this on black people or Muslims or immigrants would not be allowed.

It's not a simple issue and I think a lot of people are wilfully blind to that fact. (Not referring to you, btw)

And the urge to separate is usually strong in those who face discrimination, lack of education or poverty; single-ethnicity ghettoisation in places like the States and the UK prove that.

Freddie59

Millicent wrote: »

There are problems in the community from what I can see. I'm not denying that. A level of responsibility does need to be taken. However, there are strong Traveller groups like Pavee Point acknowledging things like that and working for change but they are often slagged off on here. It seems Travellers can't win sometimes and they are the only group on Boards that I've ever seen an almost unanimous distaste for. Threads like this on black people or Muslims or immigrants would not be allowed.

Hmmm. Working for change for whom, precisely? I don't see black people or Muslims etc descending on areas en masse and camping illegally. Maybe they do where you live?

red sean

The travellers want everything done for them and paid for by the tax payer. Despite the fact they run businesses they contribute nothing to the state coffers. I'm self-employed and cannot get a bank loan at the moment to upgrade my van (03) to a newer one(06/07 maybe), yet they can swan around the place in brand new ones.
They say they want integration but on their terms only and at our expense.
How much revenue is generated for the state annually from their activities in scrap metal, horse dealing, etc?
Answer: NONE
So how can anybody be sympathetic to them?
And I did'nt mention any illegal activities that may be funding their lifestyle!

sellerbarry

red sean wrote: »

The travellers want everything done for them and paid for by the tax payer. Despite the fact they run businesses they contribute nothing to the state coffers. I'm self-employed and cannot get a bank loan at the moment to upgrade my van (03) to a newer one(06/07 maybe), yet they can swan around the place in brand new ones.
They say they want integration but on their terms only and at our expense.
How much revenue is generated for the state annually from their activities in scrap metal, horse dealing, etc?
Answer: NONE
So how can anybody be sympathetic to them?
And I did'nt mention any illegal activities that may be funding their lifestyle!

+1

lividduck

Freddie59 wrote: »

Hmmm. Working for change for whom, precisely? I don't see black people or Muslims etc descending on areas en masse and camping illegally. Maybe they do where you live?

I don't see to many travellers bankrupting the country like your "free market" friends did Freddie. You are quick to advocate Laissez Faire when it comes to commerce but equally quick to blame everone else in society for the ills in this country.

lividduck

red sean wrote: »

The travellers want everything done for them and paid for by the tax payer. Despite the fact they run businesses they contribute nothing to the state coffers. I'm self-employed and cannot get a bank loan at the moment to upgrade my van (03) to a newer one(06/07 maybe), yet they can swan around the place in brand new ones.
They say they want integration but on their terms only and at our expense.
How much revenue is generated for the state annually from their activities in scrap metal, horse dealing, etc?
Answer: NONE
So how can anybody be sympathetic to them?
And I did'nt mention any illegal activities that may be funding their lifestyle!

Typical childish crap, everyone,self employed,public service,paye, or unemployed in this country pays taxes and excise duties. I suggest you google vat to educate yourself! Everytime a traveller or anyone else buys a litre of diesel or a packet of fags theyb generate revenue.
BTW I am self employed so don't go making any assumptions.

Vizzy

lividduck wrote: »

Typical childish crap, everyone,self employed,public service,paye, or unemployed in this country pays taxes and excise duties. I suggest you google vat to educate yourself! Everytime a traveller or anyone else buys robs a few hundred litres of diesel or a packet of fags they generate revenue for themselves.
BTW I am self employed so don't go making any assumptions.

FYP

red sean

lividduck wrote: »

Typical childish crap, everyone,self employed,public service,paye, or unemployed in this country pays taxes and excise duties. I suggest you google vat to educate yourself! Everytime a traveller or anyone else buys a litre of diesel or a packet of fags theyb generate revenue.
BTW I am self employed so don't go making any assumptions.

Thank you kindly for your polite reply. :rolleyes:

Dare I ask how much income tax, prsi etc. they contribute?

Freddie59

lividduck wrote: »

I don't see to many travellers bankrupting the country like your "free market" friends did Freddie. You are quick to advocate Laissez Faire when it comes to commerce but equally quick to blame everone else in society for the ills in this country.

WTF has that got to do with the point I made? Sweet Jesus. I despair sometimes. Seriously.

lividduck

red sean wrote: »

Thank you kindly for your polite reply. :rolleyes:

Dare I ask how much income tax, prsi etc. they contribute?

about the same amount as the 450,000 unemployed, or like Freddie do you consider them to be scum too?
The people who bankrupted Ireland:
Bertie Aherne
"fingers" Fingleton
Seanie Fitzpatrick
Liam Carroll...
... not a traveller among them.
Corruption in Ireland:
Michael Lowry
Ben Dunne
CJ Haughey
Redmond,Dunlop,Cosgrave,Lawlor etc..not a traveller among them
Criminal Gangs:
Gilligan
Hutch (The Monk)
Mitchell (The Penguin)
Marlo Hyland
Psycho Judge...not a traveller among them
Priests,brothers,nuns,bishops who raped,beat and abused generations of children...not a traveller among them!

But we all know it is the travellers who are the real problem in Ireland, sure without them Ireland would be a paradise!

Freddie59

lividduck wrote: »

about the same amount as the 450,000 unemployed, or like Freddie do you consider them to be scum too?
The people who bankrupted Ireland:
Bertie Aherne
"fingers" Fingleton
Seanie Fitzpatrick
Liam Carroll...
... not a traveller among them.
Corruption in Ireland:
Michael Lowry
Ben Dunne
CJ Haughey
Redmond,Dunlop,Cosgrave,Lawlor etc..not a traveller among them
Criminal Gangs:
Gilligan
Hutch (The Monk)
Mitchell (The Penguin)
Marlo Hyland
Psycho Judge...not a traveller among them
Priests,brothers,nuns,bishops who raped,beat and abused generations of children...not a traveller among them!

But we all know it is the travellers who are the real problem in Ireland, sure without them Ireland would be a paradise!

Firstly, I'd ask you to retract your statement about me from the above rant. Where have I said that they are all scum? Or the unemployed? Well? Get your facts straight before blurting out unsubstantiated allegations, just because people are sick of carrying your lot.

Questioning expenditure, be it on travellers, the unemployed, or:eek: the Public Sector you so admire for whatever inane reason(the cause of most of the economic woes in this country, much as you'd like people to think otherwise) is a right. Especially when I and the other 1.5m Private Sector workers are funding the PS lifestyle.

Professey Chin

This isnt about them but you have no defense so you try divert attention.
Answer the question instead of avoiding it

Thats @livid not Freddie. Youre fast :pac:

hondasam

Freddie59 wrote: »

Especially when I and the other 1.5m Private Sector workers are funding the PS lifestyle.

Freddie, where would us PS workers be without the Private sector funding/supporting us:)

Monty Burnz

lividduck wrote: »

But we all know it is the travellers who are the real problem in Ireland, sure without them Ireland would be a paradise!

There are criminals and crooks in regular society. We all know this. There is a vastly higher number of crooks and criminals per capita amongst the travellers if prison statistics are anything to go by. The former point does not diminish the latter.

Freddie59

hondasam wrote: »

Freddie, where would us PS workers be without the Private sector funding/supporting us:)

Where indeed Sam?;)

red sean

lividduck wrote: »

about the same amount as the 450,000 unemployed, or like Freddie do you consider them to be scum too?
The people who bankrupted Ireland:
Bertie Aherne
"fingers" Fingleton
Seanie Fitzpatrick
Liam Carroll...
... not a traveller among them.
Corruption in Ireland:
Michael Lowry
Ben Dunne
CJ Haughey
Redmond,Dunlop,Cosgrave,Lawlor etc..not a traveller among them
Criminal Gangs:
Gilligan
Hutch (The Monk)
Mitchell (The Penguin)
Marlo Hyland
Psycho Judge...not a traveller among them
Priests,brothers,nuns,bishops who raped,beat and abused generations of children...not a traveller among them!

But we all know it is the travellers who are the real problem in Ireland, sure without them Ireland would be a paradise!

You appear to have forgotten "Frog" Ward.

Regarding the 450,000 unemployed you mentioned, I do not indeed regard them as scum.
In fact I have referred to nobody as scum.

The vast majority of the unemployed are unemployed through no fault of theirs. They have sought and found employment at some time in their lives and in most cases worked for decades in the same job, thereby contributing in no small way to the benefits they are now having to claim to survive.
The same can not be said about travellers.

Furthermore, whether somebody is in the public sector or private sector is irrelevant. They are all taxpayers who finance these peoples lifestyle.

MagicSean

lividduck wrote: »

about the same amount as the 450,000 unemployed, or like Freddie do you consider them to be scum too?
The people who bankrupted Ireland:
Bertie Aherne
"fingers" Fingleton
Seanie Fitzpatrick
Liam Carroll...
... not a traveller among them.
Corruption in Ireland:
Michael Lowry
Ben Dunne
CJ Haughey
Redmond,Dunlop,Cosgrave,Lawlor etc..not a traveller among them
Criminal Gangs:
Gilligan
Hutch (The Monk)
Mitchell (The Penguin)
Marlo Hyland
Psycho Judge...not a traveller among them
Priests,brothers,nuns,bishops who raped,beat and abused generations of children...not a traveller among them!

But we all know it is the travellers who are the real problem in Ireland, sure without them Ireland would be a paradise!

You think there are no travellers in criminal gangs or defrauding the state? Or do you think that if you don't know a persons name then they don't exist? The people you named are only the ones that appear in newspapers. Are newspapers your sole source of knowledge?

hondasam

red sean wrote: »

The vast majority of the unemployed are unemployed through no fault of theirs. They have sought and found employment at some time in their lives and in most cases worked for decades in the same job, thereby contributing in no small way to the benefits they are now having to claim to survive.
The same can not be said about travellers.

The problem has been allowed to continue for years, different rules for travellers because of their culture and then all the discrimination issues. I cannot see it changing any time soon but hopefully the next generation of travellers will make a difference. There is a vast improvement with education but still not good enough. Majority of travellers are set in their ways and simply know no other life style and it's impossible for them to get jobs.