We want to buy

borderlinemeath

iguana wrote: »

Seriously? You realise that by buying a cheaper house you have a lower mortgage not a bigger one right? It's pretty basic maths. Personally I see myself buying for cash in 2-5 years.

Well done for being in a position to be a cash buyer. It's not everybody can do it. But I still think my question is valid for the majority of people who rent and have no inclination to own a home.

daltonmd

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Fair enough. All you people who rent and love the freedom and flexibility of it all.

Look ahead to the future if you may. You're not buying a property now, hell no. Save your money, hold off, maybe 5 years, maybe 10 years. When you go to purchase your property you will take out a mortgage, maybe 20, maybe 25, maybe even a 30 year mortgage. Maybe you will never buy and will continue to rent for as long as you can.

Now, here's my question. When you're of a pensionable age, ie 60/65, maybe 70 where will you live if you haven't bought a home? Do you expect the state to accomodate you? Do you expect your children to have you live with them as they tend to do in mainland Europe?

My mortgage will be paid off by the time I'm 50 as will my OHs properties. That's not all that far away and we will have the certainty that we don't have to rely on family or the state to house us.

I don't think you get it BLM - it isn't about loving the freedom - its about making the best financial decision for yourself and your family.

I will do what others in my postion will do - I will probably buy a similiar home to you, for a fraction of the price, for cash. I will do it way before I'm 50 by the way.

But that's not the point - the point is that people are still buying now because it's "cheaper than renting". Which may be true on a short term basis and true over the term of a 30 year mortgage - but for now and in the coming 5 years it's my opinion that it is not the right time.

daltonmd

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Well done for being in a position to be a cash buyer. It's not everybody can do it. But I still think my question is valid for the majority of people who rent and have no inclination to own a home.

No it's not a valid question. Why would you presume firstly, that everyone who's renting doesn't want to buy - ever.

If they choose not to then why would you think that they would need torely on family or the state when they are older?

Maybe instead of investing in property they invested in something else which can give them a secure income?

borderlinemeath

daltonmd wrote: »

I don't think you get it BLM - it isn't about loving the freedom - its about making the best financial decision for yourself and your family.

And for some people the best decision for them is to buy a home.

I will do what others in my postion will do - I will probably buy a similiar home to you, for a fraction of the price, for cash. I will do it way before I'm 50 by the way.

I doubt very much you'll buy a house similar to mine. Maybe you'll buy something for a fraction of the price, maybe you won't. I'm probably far closer to 50 than you though, as I don't have long left to pay on my mortgage. Lots of cash rich people on boards it seems!:D

But that's not the point - the point is that people are still buying now because it's "cheaper than renting". Which may be true on a short term basis and true over the term of a 30 year mortgage - but for now and in the coming 5 years it's my opinion that it is not the right time.

Again, your opinion. For others it's the right time to buy.

No it's not a valid question. Why would you presume firstly, that everyone who's renting doesn't want to buy - ever.

It is a valid question. Are you telling me what I can and cannot ask on boards now?

If they choose not to then why would you think that they would need torely on family or the state when they are older?

Maybe instead of investing in property they invested in something else which can give them a secure income?

Maybe you haven't noticed but it's not just the property market that has gone belly up in the past 5 years. Private pensions have been decimated and shares have fallen through the floor. There's no investments that give a decent return that don't have a substantial risk involved.

iguana

borderlinemeath wrote: »

And for some people the best decision for them is to buy a home.

Arguably on an emotional level but unless they have managed to get a very, very, very good price for the house it is not the best financial decision. Maths is not subjective.

RobAMerc

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Look ahead to the future if you may. You're not buying a property now, hell no. Save your money, hold off, maybe 5 years, maybe 10 years. When you go to purchase your property you will take out a mortgage, maybe 20, maybe 25, maybe even a 30 year mortgage. Maybe you will never buy and will continue to rent for as long as you can.

Now, here's my question. When you're of a pensionable age, ie 60/65, maybe 70 where will you live if you haven't bought a home? Do you expect the state to accomodate you? Do you expect your children to have you live with them as they tend to do in mainland Europe?

I really don't think you are getting it. If the OP buy's in 5 years and house prices have fallen another 50% off today's values, then they will only need borrow 70k rather than 140k - and will only have to pay back 140k rather than 280K - they could pay that off in 10 rather than 20 years so would they be better off ? No one said never buy, or even wait 10 years unless prices keep falling.
All hypothetical of course, but all indicators are that prices are only going one way at the moment ( despite some vested interests best efforts ).

I can see from your posts you are heavily invested in the housing market, if it's going well for you I am genuinely happy. But I think my original accusation that you are trying to talk up home ownership and ergo the property market stand.

StillWaters

So now we have a 50% fall projection?

Those speaking for doing the maths and buying now if it stacks up, are not necessarily speaking from a vested interest viewpoint, but they are being contrarian. And sometimes, like during the bubble, the contrarians are right.

listermint

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Maybe you haven't noticed but it's not just the property market that has gone belly up in the past 5 years. Private pensions have been decimated and shares have fallen through the floor. There's no investments that give a decent return that don't have a substantial risk involved.

Which is why its bewildering that you are telling someone to buy property? Its not the right time to invest.

TBH OP, if i was in your situation i would certainly not be looking for property. Il be as candid as i can, your wages are not that high or your partners. It would not be a comfortable option, Perhaps seeking to reduce your existing rent or move to somewhere that has an acceptable rent level would be first port of call. There are plenty of excellent rental propertys out there lower than what you are paying.

Secondly what about improving your self financially, You can save the extra cash for a future deposit or perhaps seek to further education to upscale your salary expectations.

I would take everything Borderline is saying with a massive pinch of salt. As they appear to have some form of property portfolio. And i can guarantee you they havent built it from the salary position you are on. We do not know their starter situation.


For me you are over stretching yourself 'currently' and this is really not necessary. You are not 'missing out' on anything. You will have a larger deposit and lower house prices if you hold of that much is a fact. And for anyone that things prices are bottoming out they are hilariously insane. We are not out of the woods yet. We have major global issues with the potential for the US to falter yet, perhaps another war coming affecting global oil prices. For me that uncertainty is enough to push the boat out.

And please disregard that crap about paying for it till you 70 or some other snake oil borderline was selling because thats tripe.

RobAMerc

StillWaters wrote: »

So now we have a 50% fall projection?

I think you are trying to pick and choose what you are arguing against here rather than see the point of my whole post.

As I stated it is - "hypothetical" - however, it's not inconceivable that it could happen.
No one believed we would be down 60% odd from the peak and we are there now and there is little sign of it stopping.
My point is unless there is a halt or at least 2 quarters or sustained growth in the property and economy you have no idea if we are anywhere near the bottom, so it's a bad time to buy.

LisaPol

listermint wrote: »

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Maybe you haven't noticed but it's not just the property market that has gone belly up in the past 5 years. Private pensions have been decimated and shares have fallen through the floor. There's no investments that give a decent return that don't have a substantial risk involved.

Which is why its bewildering that you are telling someone to buy property? Its not the right time to invest.

TBH OP, if i was in your situation i would certainly not be looking for property. Il be as candid as i can, your wages are not that high or your partners. It would not be a comfortable option, Perhaps seeking to reduce your existing rent or move to somewhere that has an acceptable rent level would be first port of call. There are plenty of excellent rental propertys out there lower than what you are paying.

Secondly what about improving your self financially, You can save the extra cash for a future deposit or perhaps seek to further education to upscale your salary expectations.

I would take everything Borderline is saying with a massive pinch of salt. As they appear to have some form of property portfolio. And i can guarantee you they havent built it from the salary position you are on. We do not know their starter situation.


For me you are over stretching yourself 'currently' and this is really not necessary. You are not 'missing out' on anything. You will have a larger deposit and lower house prices if you hold of that much is a fact. And for anyone that things prices are bottoming out they are hilariously insane. We are not out of the woods yet. We have major global issues with the potential for the US to falter yet, perhaps another war coming affecting global oil prices. For me that uncertainty is enough to push the boat out.

And please disregard that crap about paying for it till you 70 or some other snake oil borderline was selling because thats tripe.

I have a level 8 degree, Im choosing to stay at home with the kids, and I am earning as much as I would be by working full time while paying childcare. With the bonus of bringing up the baby myself. We dont feel overstretched, Roughly 800eu per week, or a little more coming in, and paying 300 a week rent, which leaves us with 500 per week bills etc. I actually feel were in a better position than a lot of others are at the moment.

listermint

LisaPol wrote: »

I have a level 8 degree, Im choosing to stay at home with the kids, and I am earning as much as I would be by working full time while paying childcare. With the bonus of bringing up the baby myself. We dont feel overstretched, Roughly 800eu per week, or a little more coming in, and paying 300 a week rent, which leaves us with 500 per week bills etc. I actually feel were in a better position than a lot of others are at the moment.

Thats fair enough.

Personally I cant see you getting loan approval under present market conditions, if you do then it will be for much less than 150K, I know this as I know people on more than you with good credit history that have been offered pretty paultry mortgages.

Can you wait another 18 months? This will give you more savings etc. Why do you feel forced to buy right now?

Theboinkmaster

This thread is quite depressing and just goes to show not much has changed since the bubble. Some people seems to have no basic concept of basic economics & maths :rolleyes:

Most (there may be some exceptions but applies to the majority) people buying for the first time now are ignorant fools and just the type in few years to be demanding a bailout.

borderlinemeath

listermint wrote: »

Which is why its bewildering that you are telling someone to buy property? Its not the right time to invest.

If you read my point in context it referred to pensions and shares. Both of which have been decimated not just in Ireland but worldwide. At least with property you have something at the end of it. I know plenty of people who lost hundreds of thousands in pensions and are glad to have a roof over their head.

TBH OP, if i was in your situation i would certainly not be looking for property. Il be as candid as i can, your wages are not that high or your partners. It would not be a comfortable option, Perhaps seeking to reduce your existing rent or move to somewhere that has an acceptable rent level would be first port of call. There are plenty of excellent rental propertys out there lower than what you are paying.

The OP hasn't said where they are living so nobody is in a positon to say there are excellent rental properties in the area she wants to be in only herself.

Secondly what about improving your self financially, You can save the extra cash for a future deposit or perhaps seek to further education to upscale your salary expectations.

Nice how you assume the OP was undereducated because she wanted to purchase a property:rolleyes:

I would take everything Borderline is saying with a massive pinch of salt. As they appear to have some form of property portfolio. And i can guarantee you they havent built it from the salary position you are on. We do not know their starter situation.

Just because I have property some posters assume I have vested interests in the area. It matters not a jot to me whether an anonymous poster, somewhere in Ireland buys or doesn't buy a house. In fact, if you look at it, isn't it better for landlords if the rental market stays stagnant as renters wait and wait and wait for property prices to fall or NAMA to put it's supply on the market?

For me you are over stretching yourself 'currently' and this is really not necessary. You are not 'missing out' on anything. You will have a larger deposit and lower house prices if you hold of that much is a fact. And for anyone that things prices are bottoming out they are hilariously insane. We are not out of the woods yet. We have major global issues with the potential for the US to falter yet, perhaps another war coming affecting global oil prices. For me that uncertainty is enough to push the boat out.

I agree with you somewhat, I do think that €1200 a month is on the high side for a home for 2 adults/1.5 children, unless it's in one of the nicer areas in Dublin.

And please disregard that crap about paying for it till you 70 or some other snake oil borderline was selling because thats tripe.

If the government has their way, the workforce will be going until their 68. I for one don't believe debt forgiveness will be implemented on a carte blanche basis, banks will work with customers on a case by case basis. The banks, for sure, will not lose out, so a renegotiation on terms such as an extension to current mortgages being a compromise for most. As it stands there's plenty of 30 year mortgages floating around that consumers will be stuck with till they're in their 60s.

daltonmd

borderlinemeath wrote: »

And for some people the best decision for them is to buy a home.

But is it the best financial decision? You can't say whether or not it is, you cannot say how much further house prices will fall, how much interest rates will be in 5 years time, how much property tax/water charges will be and how much disposable income will be.

borderlinemeath wrote: »

I doubt very much you'll buy a house similar to mine. Maybe you'll buy something for a fraction of the price, maybe you won't. I'm probably far closer to 50 than you though, as I don't have long left to pay on my mortgage. Lots of cash rich people on boards it seems!:D

No, lots of mortgage free people here and you have absolutely no idea what I am in a position to buy - but one thing is for certain, if you biught in the boom then I and many like me could buy a similiar house to yours for a fraction of the price. That is fact.

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Again, your opinion. For others it's the right time to buy.

In the short term maybe - on a monthly comparison to rent maybe - but it is not a good financial decision in such uncertain times.

borderlinemeath wrote: »

It is a valid question. Are you telling me what I can and cannot ask on boards now?

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Now, here's my question. When you're of a pensionable age, ie 60/65, maybe 70 where will you live if you haven't bought a home? Do you expect the state to accomodate you? Do you expect your children to have you live with them as they tend to do in mainland Europe?

In the context which you asked it is not a valid question. On one hand you tell people to "look to the future if you may", and then completely jump ahead 25/30 years to prove some invalid point - people need to look 5 years ahead to see if they can still afford the mortgage first.

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Maybe you haven't noticed but it's not just the property market that has gone belly up in the past 5 years. Private pensions have been decimated and shares have fallen through the floor. There's no investments that give a decent return that don't have a substantial risk involved.

And in case you haven't noticed we've just come out of the mother of all property bubbles and it's this short sighted, don't worry about the future that got a lot of people into trouble, people which at some point are going to have to get a write down of some description.

There is never the right time to make the wrong decision and those who bought during the boom know this only too well.

borderlinemeath

daltonmd wrote: »

But is it the best financial decision? You can't say whether or not it is, you cannot say how much further house prices will fall, how much interest rates will be in 5 years time, how much property tax/water charges will be and how much disposable income will be.

And you don't know what rent will be in 5 years time.

No, lots of mortgage free people here and you have absolutely no idea what I am in a position to buy - but one thing is for certain, if you biught in the boom then I and many like me could buy a similiar house to yours for a fraction of the price. That is fact.

I didn't buy in the boom, so I doubt it. Houses where I live don't come up for sale very often and when they do it's hard to compare as they're all individual country houses, but they haven't fallen anywhere near as much as an average 3 bed semi in an estate.

In the short term maybe - on a monthly comparison to rent maybe - but it is not a good financial decision in such uncertain times

Nothing is a good financial decision these days. Nothing. Buying a car, taking a holiday, (considered wasteful and indulgent by some) changing jobs if there's a bigger salary but more risk, paying into a pension, whatever you do on a day to day basis is costing money. But for some people buying a home NOW is what they want to do. And who are you or I to stop them. If they pay an extra €10k in purchase price they may write it off as they may have spent the best years of their life in the house they bought.
.

In the context which you asked it is not a valid question. On one hand you tell people to "look to the future if you may", and then completely jump ahead 25/30 years to prove some invalid point - people need to look 5 years ahead to see if they can still afford the mortgage first.

And if you look at my very first post I told the OP to do her figures as interest rates were at an all time low and to calculate repayments based on higher rates.

And in case you haven't noticed we've just come out of the mother of all property bubbles and it's this short sighted, don't worry about the future that got a lot of people into trouble, people which at some point are going to have to get a write down of some description.

There is never the right time to make the wrong decision and those who bought during the boom know this only too well.

The boom was crazy, the dogs in the street knew it, we had money and we were looking at friends of ours buying shoeboxes for big money and scratching our heads in disbelief. Now prices are far more realistic and if a property is priced right then it can be the right decision depending on the person buying.

daltonmd

borderlinemeath wrote: »

And you don't know what rent will be in 5 years time.

No I don't, but I can move, scale down, change location. If you buy an god firbid there's a job loss or an illness? All I am saying is factor in these things before committing to a 30 year mortgage.

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Nothing is a good financial decision these days. Nothing. Buying a car, taking a holiday, (considered wasteful and indulgent by some) changing jobs if there's a bigger salary but more risk, paying into a pension, whatever you do on a day to day basis is costing money.

But they are not for 30 years. You are comparing the purchase of a home, without question the largest purchase a person will make in their entire lives, with buying a car?

borderlinemeath wrote: »

But for some people buying a home NOW is what they want to do. And who are you or I to stop them. If they pay an extra €10k in purchase price they may write it off as they may have spent the best years of their life in the house they bought.

What they want and what they are in a viable financial position to do is not the same thing. Irish people have proven to be most incompetant when dealing with their finances. And if they are trapped in a home they can't afford in 5 years? Hardly the best years now are they?

borderlinemeath wrote: »

And if you look at my very first post I told the OP to do her figures as interest rates were at an all time low and to calculate repayments based on higher rates.

It was way after "This attitude annoys the hell out of me."

borderlinemeath wrote: »

The boom was crazy, the dogs in the street knew it, we had money and we were looking at friends of ours buying shoeboxes for big money and scratching our heads in disbelief. Now prices are far more realistic and if a property is priced right then it can be the right decision depending on the person buying.

It isn't about what price the property is - it's about whether or not the people buying it will be able to afford it in 2/3/5 years. The reasons have been posted here time and time again. Rising taxes, falling disposable income, falling house prices, rising interest rates.

I posted here before that when considering affordibility people need to stress to the highest interest rate (at least 7%), take out one income (in case of illness, pregnancy, god forbid a childrens illness) and then see what you are left with.

With one income of 32k and a family to support then this is simply too much to repay a 156k mortgage - as someone suggested they should move to a smaller cheaper house, save like mad and they will get a suitable family home that they can better afford in 12 months from now - because of a lower price and increased savings.

listermint

borderlinemeath wrote: »

Nice how you assume the OP was undereducated because she wanted to purchase a property:rolleyes:

No buddy, you assumed that as per your post above.....

I looked at the wages that were commanded. Its quite plausible to assume based on the wages that someone hasnt gone to higher education.

I addressed that with the OP.


your turn...

Zamboni

LisaPol wrote: »

Hi all, we have decided wed now like to buy. We know nothing. No idea if wed even be approved. Partner is in a permanent job, on 32k a year. Been there 5 years. Im almost two years self employed, tax exempt childminder on 15k. We have 13k deposit, and parents willing to lend another 5, hopefully have 20ish so. Have all our furniture. Renting four years, 1200 a month goes into rent account. 2 year old and another on the way. If we were to approach a bank, would partner be approved on his own, and how much are banks lending? Mortgages.ie calculater says hes get 156, would he though? Is two years long enough to be self employed at the moment, ive heard some places want three years accounts? What else do we need to know or take into account, pretty clueless!

I think you should look at the market in five years time (based on the assumption that you are only having two children).
Considering there is a baby boom it would be naieve to assume a place in a local school if you bought now.
At that stage, you will know into which primary schools your children have been accepted.
If you only have two children, it will mean that you will be free to double or triple you income by taking up either full time employment or even run your own childcare facility. Obviously a growing business in a baby boom
It also gives you five years to build up a substantial deposit.
Your partner has five years to potentially further his career/salary.

I am assuming you are in a nice location on €1,200 monthly rent.
This suggestion might be the trade off between maintaining your current quality of life and patience.
Good luck whatever you choose to do.

Francie Barrett

Theboinkmaster wrote: »

This thread is quite depressing and just goes to show not much has changed since the bubble. Some people seems to have no basic concept of basic economics & maths :rolleyes:

Most (there may be some exceptions but applies to the majority) people buying for the first time now are ignorant fools and just the type in few years to be demanding a bailout.

So I am an ignorant fool because I bought a house I can comfortably afford at conditions that are historically fair?

StillWaters

Francie Barrett wrote: »

So I am an ignorant fool because I bought a house I can comfortably afford at conditions that are historically fair?

Don't feel too bad, there are quite a few of us economically illiterate ignorant fools here who can't do the maths for ourselves and our families.

daltonmd

Francie Barrett wrote: »

So I am an ignorant fool because I bought a house I can comfortably afford at conditions that are historically fair?

I don't think that was aimed at you. It's just that one of the reasons for people to go ahead and buy seems to be - bcause they want to. What people need to do is look down the road a few years and stress to a higher interest rate, take into account diminished disposable income/higher taxes and factor in a worse case scenario to see if they can still afford tommorow, what they can comfortably afford today.

If you feel you can do this then great - many people unfortunately do not look beyond the teaser interest rate.

Theboinkmaster

Francie Barrett wrote: »

So I am an ignorant fool because I bought a house I can comfortably afford at conditions that are historically fair?

Perhaps - post up the details of your house, location, price, how you financed it etc and I'll let you know.

RobAMerc

Francie Barrett wrote: »

at conditions that are historically fair?

Can you explain what you mean by this ? I'm sorry I just don't understand what you are getting at here.