In what ways are men discriminated against?

The Corinthian

Maguined wrote: »

Yes but even in countries that have generous parental leave rights that can be shared between both mother and father there is till the significant difference in whether the state or employer pays this leave and what percentage.

Not necessarily. As Zulu pointed out, and I tried to but wasn't clear enough (sorry), is that all paternity leave means in many countries is that maternity leave becomes parental leave - the same amount of leave, but can be divided between the parents as they see fit.

As I said though, unless you change perceptions, paternity/parental leave won't make much difference. Without rights, perceptions will remain the same.

Steve Johnson

Baldness. The world HATES bald people. I wonder if women could be bald would they be discriminated against because of it like men are. I highly doubt it, they'd probably still think they're princesses as thousands of desperate men would be worshipping them. I once had a cat, his name was John. One day me and John both agreed: "Irish women are picky as hell".

iptba

Steve Johnson wrote: »

Baldness. The world HATES bald people. I wonder if women could be bald would they be discriminated against because of it like men are. I highly doubt it, they'd probably still think they're princesses as thousands of desperate men would be worshipping them. I once had a cat, his name was John. One day me and John both agreed: "Irish women are picky as hell".

It sort of came up before in the thread that personal preferences in who one is attracted to might not fit in this category. However, there might be a negative attitude promoted in the media (and elsewhere) to baldness, which might influence people including in terms of attraction.

I don't "consume" that much tv but I remember Larry David brought this point up (i.e. complained about it) in one or more episodes of Curb Your Enthusiasm.

Steve Johnson

iptba wrote: »

It sort of came up before in the thread that personal preferences in who one is attracted to might not fit in this category. However, there might be a negative attitude promoted in the media (and elsewhere) to baldness, which might influence people including in terms of attraction.

No kidding. Whenever there is a bald guy portrayed in a positive light in TV/film, he's always got model-like looks. Any bald guy without super sexy looks is always portrayed as the biggest ****-wit in the show/movie.

As to another issue relevant to this topic, I've googled every single male actor even remotely famous, and I've been shocked at how a lot of them are not that much taller than me (5'8), but when you actually watch the films they're in, they're portrayed as being 6'. I think they wear elevator shoes. I've been praying to god before I go to bed that my elevator shoes will really make me 6'1 and dreaming about it. Do you really think shoes can make a guy 5.5 inches taller like it says?

The Corinthian

Steve Johnson wrote: »

Baldness. The world HATES bald people. I wonder if women could be bald would they be discriminated against because of it like men are. I highly doubt it, they'd probably still think they're princesses as thousands of desperate men would be worshipping them. I once had a cat, his name was John. One day me and John both agreed: "Irish women are picky as hell".

This is not discrimination based upon gender and your supposition that people would still think women are "princesses" is misogynistic nonsense of the highest order - one need only see how we treat women who lose their hair as a result of chemotherapy to disprove this notion.

Both men and women suffer discrimination based upon physical attractiveness, and in fairness, I think women suffer more from this than men.

There are plenty of examples of such discrimination against men, but things like this serve only to discredit the valid examples.

Of such valid examples, there is a thread on tLL that I regrettably posted on before realizing that it wasn't a discussion in the sense that I would understand this. In reality it concerns women exchanging experiences about rape and unfortunately my brief contribution was completely out of place and caused only offence.

Nonetheless, I continued to lurk as having been ignorant of the topic, I thought it only right that I educate myself to overcome this ignorance. I will not link to this discussion, but say that many of the accounts are horrific and rightly the other posters damned the men who committed these crimes and should be left in peace.

However, one poster recounted how she was sexually abused by an older girl rather than a boy, when she was young, which was an equally horrific story in my opinion. Then, another poster suggested that perhaps the perpetrator did not know she was doing wrong and that she was a victim too.

Having read page after page of harrowing abuses on that thread, with each and every male perpetrator justly vilified, I was shocked that the moment the perpetrator is female she somehow was defended as a victim too. I can only hope that the rest of the posters there oppose this vile viewpoint.

This too is a common form of discrimination that men suffer from; we may only be perpetrators, women only victims, regardless of the fact that either can commit equally heinous crimes on each other. A wife throwing delft at her husband in a rage is still seen as funny, a husband doing the same is domestic violence.

Related to this is the utter double standard with which sexual abuse of boys by adult women is treated by the law and society in general. This has been shown on numerous occasions in the past, where older female teachers have had sexual relationships with under-age students, and the media has often suggested that it is almost a misdemeanour or that the boy in question was even 'lucky' - hypocrisy was satirized by South Park. Bare in mind also that in Ireland, in such a scenario, the older female teacher cannot be charged with rape.

Would a male version of Cougar Town be seen in the same way? Certainly older men having relationships with younger women is not uncommon in popular culture, but I can't but feel that a series glorifying it would cause uproar.

iptba

The Corinthian wrote: »

Having read page after page of harrowing abuses on that thread, with each and every male perpetrator justly vilified, I was shocked that the moment the perpetrator is female she somehow was defended as a victim too. I can only hope that the rest of the posters there oppose this vile viewpoint.

This too is a common form of discrimination that men suffer from; we may only be perpetrators, women only victims, regardless of the fact that either can commit equally heinous crimes on each other. A wife throwing delft at her husband in a rage is still seen as funny, a husband doing the same is domestic violence.

Related to this is the utter double standard with which sexual abuse of boys by adult women is treated by the law and society in general. This has been shown on numerous occasions in the past, where older female teachers have had sexual relationships with under-age students, and the media has often suggested that it is almost a misdemeanour or that the boy in question was even 'lucky' - hypocrisy was satirized by South Park. Bare in mind also that in Ireland, in such a scenario, the older female teacher cannot be charged with rape.

I think research could easily look at such issues e.g. questionnaires where everything is the same except for half the people the perpretrator is female, for half the perpretrator is male. Then would look look over various types of crimes and incidents (not just sexual ones) to look for differences.

Maybe there has been such research, but it doesn't seem to come up much in the lay media.

I would find such, more empirical research, more interesting than some of the output from gender studies researchers.

yawha

The Corinthian wrote: »

However, one poster recounted how she was sexually abused by an older girl rather than a boy, when she was young, which was an equally horrific story in my opinion. Then, another poster suggested that perhaps the perpetrator did not know she was doing wrong and that she was a victim too.

I really think that comment has much more to do with the age of the abuser (9/10) rather than the gender.

The Corinthian

yawha wrote: »

I really think that comment has much more to do with the age of the abuser (9/10) rather than the gender.

Then look through the thread and let us know if similar defences were made when accounts were given of male abusers that were of that age.

yawha

I read the whole thread. I don't think I recall reading about a similar situation with a male child abuser.

If there is indeed explicit vilification of 9/10 year old male abusers in that thread, then touche.

The Corinthian

yawha wrote: »

I read the whole thread. I don't think I recall reading about a similar situation with a male child abuser.

If there is indeed explicit vilification of 9/10 year old male abusers in that thread, then touche.

There were a number of such examples at versions ages, slightly older and the same.

The thread in question was simply an instance of what I raised. The rest of my post gave other instances of this prejudice that re-enforce the point.

Esoteric_

Childhood abuse example aside, I have to agree with the corinthian. As this is the career path I want to get into (therapist for teenage abuse victims), I've done a little reading on it and the amount of ignorance pertaining to female on male rape astounds me. In the UK, the law states that women cannot rape, from what I can remember reading. I know a male rape victim, and he was unable to speak about it to almost anyone because nobody believed a woman could rape him. There is a huge stigma still attached to it, and while there is plenty of stigma attached to all rape victims, it's worse for male victims generally.

Dolbert

The Corinthian wrote:

However, one poster recounted how she was sexually abused by an older girl rather than a boy, when she was young, which was an equally horrific story in my opinion. Then, another poster suggested that perhaps the perpetrator did not know she was doing wrong and that she was a victim too.

You left out the part where the poster said that she had subsequently done it to another girl, and that she didn't realise that she was doing wrong. That's where the suggestion that her abuser had perhaps not known either came in. Personally I didn't feel able to comment on the OP's experience as I felt it would come across like a judgement on her, something that wouldn't have a place on that thread (IMO). I would have felt the same about a male posting the same story.

LegacyUser

The Corinthian wrote: »

This is not discrimination based upon gender and your supposition that people would still think women are "princesses" is misogynistic nonsense of the highest order - one need only see how we treat women who lose their hair as a result of chemotherapy to disprove this notion.

Both men and women suffer discrimination based upon physical attractiveness, and in fairness, I think women suffer more from this than men.

There are plenty of examples of such discrimination against men, but things like this serve only to discredit the valid examples.

Of such valid examples, there is a thread on tLL that I regrettably posted on before realizing that it wasn't a discussion in the sense that I would understand this. In reality it concerns women exchanging experiences about rape and unfortunately my brief contribution was completely out of place and caused only offence.

Nonetheless, I continued to lurk as having been ignorant of the topic, I thought it only right that I educate myself to overcome this ignorance. I will not link to this discussion, but say that many of the accounts are horrific and rightly the other posters damned the men who committed these crimes and should be left in peace.

However, one poster recounted how she was sexually abused by an older girl rather than a boy, when she was young, which was an equally horrific story in my opinion. Then, another poster suggested that perhaps the perpetrator did not know she was doing wrong and that she was a victim too.

Having read page after page of harrowing abuses on that thread, with each and every male perpetrator justly vilified, I was shocked that the moment the perpetrator is female she somehow was defended as a victim too. I can only hope that the rest of the posters there oppose this vile viewpoint.

This too is a common form of discrimination that men suffer from; we may only be perpetrators, women only victims, regardless of the fact that either can commit equally heinous crimes on each other. A wife throwing delft at her husband in a rage is still seen as funny, a husband doing the same is domestic violence.

Related to this is the utter double standard with which sexual abuse of boys by adult women is treated by the law and society in general. This has been shown on numerous occasions in the past, where older female teachers have had sexual relationships with under-age students, and the media has often suggested that it is almost a misdemeanour or that the boy in question was even 'lucky' - hypocrisy was satirized by South Park. Bare in mind also that in Ireland, in such a scenario, the older female teacher cannot be charged with rape.

Would a male version of Cougar Town be seen in the same way? Certainly older men having relationships with younger women is not uncommon in popular culture, but I can't but feel that a series glorifying it would cause uproar.

I posted the story of my rape on that thread. Its so ironic you post this after pages and pages of abuse you pick up on the one story of a female child doing something to another female child. The fact is most rape is men on women, other cases happen but are rare. I would love to be a man today and face all the things discussed here rather than live another second feeling like I do today.

The Corinthian

Dolorous wrote: »

You left out the part where the poster said that she had subsequently done it to another girl, and that she didn't realise that she was doing wrong. That's where the suggestion that her abuser had perhaps not known either came in.

So because the poster had subsequently done it to another girl, someone felt the need to defend the original perpetrator and not her? Had someone defended the posters subsequent actions as a victim, I might likely accept what you're suggesting, but instead defending the original perpetrator makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Personally I didn't feel able to comment on the OP's experience as I felt it would come across like a judgement on her, something that wouldn't have a place on that thread (IMO). I would have felt the same about a male posting the same story.

Statistically most perpetrators of child sexual abuse were themselves abused. Yet it was only when the perpetrator was female that any sympathy was shown, and shown to the perpetrator and not the victim! Worse still, not only was that response not challenged, but to date it's even been thanked a few times.

In no instance where the perpetrator was male did anyone suggest that he was a victim on that thread. So, with all due respect, had the that poster been abused by a boy and not a girl, I do not believe that you or anyone else on that thread would have "felt the same".

Otis Driftwood

Folks,please let there be no more discussion of the thread in tLL.If you want to partake in it then post in the thread itself but do not bring it up in here again,it has no part to play in here and discussing specifics of other threads in different forums is not on as mods should well know.

Cheers.

Grayson

The Corinthian wrote: »

This is not discrimination based upon gender and your supposition that people would still think women are "princesses" is misogynistic nonsense of the highest order - one need only see how we treat women who lose their hair as a result of chemotherapy to disprove this notion.

Both men and women suffer discrimination based upon physical attractiveness, and in fairness, I think women suffer more from this than men.

actually, men suffer more
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2012/jan/06/body-image-concerns-men-more-than-women

I'm not saying women discriminate more, but men obviously feel like they do.

More than four in five men (80.7%) talk in ways that promote anxiety about their body image by referring to perceived flaws and imperfections, compared with 75% of women. Similarly, 38% of men would sacrifice at least a year of their life in exchange for a perfect body – again, a higher proportion than women.

Giselle

Grayson wrote: »

actually, men suffer more
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2012/jan/06/body-image-concerns-men-more-than-women

I'm not saying women discriminate more, but men obviously feel like they do.

I don't think thats discrimmination as such, just a reflection of poor self-image. Its sad to think that men have caught up with or surpassed women in the self loathing stakes, we'd all be better off if we were a little less concerned with exteriors and moreso with interiors.

Personally I think women are more forgiving of 'quirky' or 'non-conventional' looks in men than vice versa, but I can only speak from personal experience.

Galwayguy35

Grayson wrote: »

actually, men suffer more
http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2012/jan/06/body-image-concerns-men-more-than-women

I'm not saying women discriminate more, but men obviously feel like they do.

To be honest if a man isn't happy with his body then a few months of excercise is the answer there. I wouldn't really class this as discrimination. I think some men seem to be getting more obsessed about their looks than women ever were.

eviltwin

I think men can be just as likely to have a poor self image as a woman but I think society still expects women to conform to a certain ideal something that doesn't seem to be as big an issue for men. I do think its starting to happen though slowly so needs to be nipped in the bud.

py2006

I've always hated my appearance. I grew up believing I was extremely ugly and on top of that I have been periodically over weight. Even today I yearn to look a lot different.

I have even had some horrible comments from girls and the usual rejections based on their opinions of me based on looks.

Body image is seen as a female thing, if men have issues its like "man up", "grow a pair", "get over yourself" or indeed your sexuality is questioned.

I am sure I am not the only man who has gone through this.

iptba

py2006 wrote: »

I've always hated my appearance. I grew up believing I was extremely ugly and on top of that I have been periodically over weight. Even today I yearn to look a lot different.

I have even had some horrible comments from girls and the usual rejections based on their opinions of me based on looks.

I am sure I am not the only man who has gone through this.

Sorry to hear about your experiences, py2006.

citytillidie

snafuk35 wrote: »

If a guy is drunk and walking home alone from a nightclub and a gang of women leap out of the bushes, strip him naked and force him to have sex with them, if he went to the cops they would laugh at him for making a complaint. This happens to me all the time and I am sick of being ignored!

Otis Driftwood wrote: »

If you cant refrain from making stupid comments like this then dont bother posting in this thread.

Not Ireland but it happened in Florida where a 11 year old boy was stripped naked by 3 14 year old girls, it was filmed and posted on the internet but none of the girls faced any punishment.

http://www.fox4now.com/news/local/125137994.html

Now if that was the other way around you can almost be certain that things would have been much worse

Giselle

py2006 wrote: »

I've always hated my appearance. I grew up believing I was extremely ugly and on top of that I have been periodically over weight. Even today I yearn to look a lot different.

I have even had some horrible comments from girls and the usual rejections based on their opinions of me based on looks.

Body image is seen as a female thing, if men have issues its like "man up", "grow a pair", "get over yourself" or indeed your sexuality is questioned.

I am sure I am not the only man who has gone through this.

I'm really sorry about this. People can be very cruel.

I'm not sure how it can be classed as discrimmination though. Both genders are judged harshly when it comes to looks, and in many ways we're used to women being the primary focus of that although I do see men increasingly being meted out the same treatment.

Often a woman who comes to public attention will be judged primarily on her looks, regardless of the reason she's in the public eye. Men are still primarily judged on who they are, and what they do. Their fashion choices and weight are rarely scrutinised as if its the most important thing about them.

Sadly, I suspect if you voiced your insecurities in mixed company that it would be other men telling you to 'grow a pair'.

Sadly I'm certain you're right and many other men have the same feelings and experiences, and I suspect its going to become ever more common, as advertisers target men's insecurities as effectively as they've tapped into female ones.

nala1

I'm really sorry about this. People can be very cruel.

I'm not sure how it can be classed as discrimmination though. Both genders are judged harshly when it comes to looks, and in many ways we're used to women being the primary focus of that although I do see men increasingly being meted out the same treatment.

It's discrimination because while both genders are judged harshly on how they look, men are ridiculed for their looks an unprecedented amount more than women. Despite very prevalent myths, this form of ridicule DOES have a detrimental affect on men's self-esteem albeit in a different way that it does on women's. Women take a significant amount of their self-esteem from how people in general think they look. Men on the other hand take a significant amount of their self-esteem from their perceived level of acceptance from women. Men don't give a **** if their male friends say they're ugly, but they very much do care when females say they are. In adolescent age groups there's an abundance of young girls in this country who will constantly let a young boy know he is unattractive. They do not show any consideration to the affect it will have on him long-term (which is colossally huge) due to having bred into them the societal notion that men are resilient to these forms of ridicule. This kind of thing is what often creates REAL misogyny in men.

That_Guy

Maybe not so much as being discriminated against but just an observation. Why is it always the mother with a baby in Pamper's ads etc and never the father?

Galwayguy35

I think the most serious issue that is facing young men today is being prosecuted for underage consenual sex. It's shocking that some womens groups support this. Would these same women still say the same if it was their son who was charged with this "crime"?

yawha

nala1 wrote: »

men are ridiculed for their looks an unprecedented amount more than women.

Not in my experience at all...

I personally see a much wider spectrum of what's considered conventionally attractive in men than in women.

And in what contexts do women tell men they're not attractive? I ahven't really encountered this...

iptba

Prison conditions. This may have been mentioned but I can't remember specifics being mentioned.

Men have to "slop out". These are words which don't necessarily get across what is involved: having to do both #1s and #2s in front of other people. But worse than that, having to then be in that room for 12 hours or so at a time with the smell. And it's not particularly hygienic either.

Men more often have to share cells. And are much more likely to be raped in prison. One might think this might even mean that they should be less likely to have to share a cell but of course that's unlikely to happen as having something where men get treated better than women on average is much less socially acceptable than having a situation where women are treated better than men.

Risk of prison rape on a male is even sometimes mentioned in a jocular matter e.g. in films.

Zulu

...and of course men are far more likely to receive a prison sentence in the first place, and generally get longer sentences for similar crimes.

The Corinthian

Zulu wrote: »

...and of course men are far more likely to receive a prison sentence in the first place, and generally get longer sentences for similar crimes.

There was a thread that examined this some time ago that highlighted some of the prejudices and presumptions regarding gender and crime. It began with the rather interesting assumption that "women seem to commit so few crimes compared to men?" and petered out once the stats that were supplied in the discussion started to show that this may not be the case. Interestingly they pointed to the following:

• Men commit far more violent crime (but are also far more likely to be victims of violent crime).
• Women are far less likely to be arrested for the same crimes as men (i.e. are more likely to get a warning).
• Women are far less likely to get incarcerated or the same length of incarceration than men for the same crime.

This is, of course, on top of legislation that will often specifically treat women more leniently than men for the same crime (the Roscommon incest case being a case in point), or deny that women can even commit the same crime (as in the case of consensual sex between minors).

Much of the prejudices seem to be based upon a number of emotive, sweeping generalizations such as this particular gem earlier in this thread:

hurtandbroken wrote: »

The fact is most rape is men on women, other cases happen but are rare.

Ignoring for a moment that legally women cannot commit rape in Ireland (thus technically all rape is committed by men), it is actually this logic that, when extended to all crime, is the basis of justifying the abolition of custodial sentences for women, which has been mooted of late.

In essence it says that because men represent the majority of crime, therefore the minority of crime committed by women need not be dealt with equally. Nice.

That the movement to 'reform' the law in this manner has reached a point whereby the Oireachtas has invited Baroness Corston to speak on the issue is extremely disturbing.

It's bad enough that men are clearly discriminated against where it comes to the application of the law for the same crime, but are women soon to be immune from custodial sanctions for those same crimes in the future?

nala1

Not in my experience at all...

I personally see a much wider spectrum of what's considered conventionally attractive in men than in women.

And in what contexts do women tell men they're not attractive? I ahven't really encountered this...

I'm talking about teasing between the early ages up until 16 or so, after that most girls seem to cop onto themselves a bit more, but before that it's rampant. You can't dispute that the amount of rejection unconventionally attractive males get is significantly higher in comparison to unconventionally attractive females. Below the 30+ age group, ONLY conventionally attractive males receive any attention/sex, while unconventionally attractive women are swimming in it.

py2006

yawha wrote: »

Not in my experience at all...

I personally see a much wider spectrum of what's considered conventionally attractive in men than in women.

And in what contexts do women tell men they're not attractive? I ahven't really encountered this...

I think a lot of the pressure thats on women to have a certain appearance, dress a certain way comes from women themselves.

I am not sure what you mean by asking what context. But you are being rather naive if you believe women don't judge men on appearance, turn their nose up if they don't dress a certain way or have a six pack etc etc

yawha

nala1 wrote: »

I'm talking about teasing between the early ages up until 16 or so, after that most girls seem to cop onto themselves a bit more, but before that it's rampant.

I'm not sure how kids being immature is discrimination. Certainly I haven't noticed that this kind of immaturity was confined to either sex.

nala1 wrote: »

You can't dispute that the amount of rejection unconventionally attractive males get is significantly higher in comparison to unconventionally attractive females. Below the 30+ age group, ONLY conventionally attractive males receive any attention/sex, while unconventionally attractive women are swimming in it.

Not getting laid isn't discrimination.

And I really dispute that unconventionally attractive women are "swimming" in sex.

Yes, the social dynamics are arguably skewed towards it being easier for women to be a lot more passive and get laid, but then again, men don't have to deal with slut shaming etc.

py2006 wrote: »

I think a lot of the pressure thats on women to have a certain appearance, dress a certain way comes from women themselves.

And most of the the "man up", "grow a pair" etc. comments you spoke about in your earlier post come from men themselves.

py2006 wrote: »

I think a lot of the pressure thats on women to have a certain appearance, dress a certain way comes from women themselves.

I am not sure what you mean by asking what context. But you are being rather naive if you believe women don't judge men on appearance, turn their nose up if they don't dress a certain way or have a six pack etc etc

Certain girls will, certainly. The same way certain guys will turn their nose up at girls (I'd almost argue that in terms of "talking the talk", I've encountered much more men who will lambaste certain women for their looks in an extremely cruel and vile fashion than I've encountered women doing the same to men). I'm just not seeing the discrimination or disparity between how guys generally treat girls vs. how girls generally treat guys.

nala1

I'm not sure how kids being immature is discrimination. Certainly I haven't noticed that this kind of immaturity was confined to either sex.

I definitely have. If a young boy says something about a young girl's looks he will be deeply condemned for doing so, this is not the case at all the other way round.

Certain girls will, certainly. The same way certain guys will turn their nose up at girls (I'd almost argue that in terms of "talking the talk", I've encountered much more men who will lambaste certain women for their looks in an extremely cruel and vile fashion than I've encountered women doing the same to men). I'm just not seeing the discrimination or disparity between how guys generally treat girls vs. how girls generally treat guys.

"Certain guys" you really mean the top 20% of alpha males. You only notice this as these are the only males women below 30 are interested in. 80% of females are chasing this small 20% of males, so of course these males will be picky. If women are getting shunned, ultimately it's the fault of the huge number of average females who are going for males that are way above their own level of attractiveness.

yawha

"Alpha males"? This all sounds rather like PUA bs to me.

Wompa1

Just caught something on tv just there. Apparently a Beyonce song called Irreplaceable was originally written by Ne-Yo, a man but he felt he couldn't release it himself or women would think he's misogynistic. This a song that contains the lyrics, "I'll have another you in a minute"...I don't listen to the radio or pop music so never struck me as odd...but just listened to it there and I get it..if a man did release that, he'd be seen as a pig saying he could find another woman like that. When a woman says it, she's a strong woman getting over some scumbag.....interesting

iptba

Wompa1 wrote: »

Just caught something on tv just there. Apparently a Beyonce song called Irreplaceable was originally written by Ne-Yo, a man but he felt he couldn't release it himself or women would think he's misogynistic. This a song that contains the lyrics, "I'll have another you in a minute"...I don't listen to the radio or pop music so never struck me as odd...but just listened to it there and I get it..if a man did release that, he'd be seen as a pig saying he could find another woman like that. When a woman says it, she's a strong woman getting over some scumbag.....interesting

Warren Farrell has/had an interesting phrase that seems apt: "the disposable sex" (e.g. used in the title of his book: "The Myth of Male Power: Why Men are the Disposable Sex" - so generally not in the context you mention but still it can be an viewpoint that is seen as acceptable in society).

iptba

The Corinthian wrote: »

There was a thread that examined this some time ago that highlighted some of the prejudices and presumptions regarding gender and crime.

Thanks for that. There was also this long discussion in tGC: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=64566921

dearg lady

nala1 wrote: »

You can't dispute that the amount of rejection unconventionally attractive males get is significantly higher in comparison to unconventionally attractive females. Below the 30+ age group, ONLY conventionally attractive males receive any attention/sex, while unconventionally attractive women are swimming in it.

I can and will dispute it, this is absolute nonsense! Even teenagers aren't that bad. I think charisma and confidence is a huge factor in what women find attractive, but conventional attractiveness...not that important at all.

The Corinthian

py2006 wrote: »

I think a lot of the pressure thats on women to have a certain appearance, dress a certain way comes from women themselves.

I am not sure what you mean by asking what context. But you are being rather naive if you believe women don't judge men on appearance, turn their nose up if they don't dress a certain way or have a six pack etc etc

I do think that both genders receive pressure, both from their own and the other gender, on appearance. In this, the pressure on women is well documented nowadays, with the debate on anorexic models being a case in point, and perhaps there is less debate on the pressure on men.

Given this, while I would be amongst the first to raise the red flag on anti-male discrimination, I don't really think this is as much a gender discrimination issue as one that effects both genders, or at least the case for it being such has not really been made here IMHO.

Dudess

nala1 wrote: »

It's discrimination because while both genders are judged harshly on how they look, men are ridiculed for their looks an unprecedented amount more .

"I can't get my hole - it's gender discrimination!" Comedy gold. As if personal preference is something someone can control.
Well said Giselle, much discrimination and injustice experienced by men is cultivated by... men. But women should get the hostility!

The Corinthian

Dudess wrote: »

As if personal preference is something someone can control.

Actually, whether you can or cannot, personal preference is not always socially acceptable. Remember personal preference is ultimately a prejudice in favour or against something or someone, and so certain personal preferences are deemed anti-social; the argument that one cannot 'control' their racism against blacks, for example, would not be accepted in our society.

I'm not saying that personal preference in the case of finding someone attractive or not is anti-social of course; only that personal preference is not a defence in all cases.

Well said Giselle, much discrimination and injustice experienced by men is cultivated by... men. But women should get the hostility!

Ironically men get a good proportion of the hostility where it comes to the pressures for women to look a certain way; pornography (which is aimed at men) has been cited as one such pressure in the last decade, for example.

As I said, I don't really think (or have not been convinced, more correctly) this is an anti-male discrimination issue, but unless you reject the idea that men put pressure on women in how they look, you can't really get on a high horse if men turn around and accuse women of the same.

Dudess

I don't spend my days resenting men because I have it in my head that they're to blame for body issues in women though - because I know it's bollocks and I know men as a gender shouldn't be blamed for personal grievances. A few heads around here should try and consider that take.
And there's a big difference between not wanting blacks in your neighbourhood and not wanting to have sex with someone. Taking it personally, and worse again blaming their gender, when someone simply doesn't fancy you, is not healthy at all.

And what are guys gonna do about these grievances? Apart from bitching about feminists for not taking on their causes? For all their evil and the way they make this world so terrible for men with its male president of America at least feminists try to do something about what they consider discrimination.

Balmed Out

Giselle wrote: »

Often a woman who comes to public attention will be judged primarily on her looks, regardless of the reason she's in the public eye. Men are still primarily judged on who they are, and what they do. Their fashion choices and weight are rarely scrutinised as if its the most important thing about them.

This has absolutely nothing to do with discrimination of women by men. This is wholly and completely women being judgemental of each other. Do you really think any man gives a rats arse about what Michelle Obama, Margaret Thatcher or Mary Robinson are wearing?
When it comes to discrimination of women too often its women not men that are the cause (the opposite holds true too but I dont believe to the same extent)
Anyone who has worked in a large company will have witnessed vindictive backstabbing of women by women.

Balmed Out

Dudess wrote: »

And what are guys gonna do about these grievances? Apart from bitching about feminists for not taking on their causes? For all their evil and the way they make this world so terrible for men with its male president of America at least feminists try to do something about what they consider discrimination.

Id like to think that most people would oppose discrimination regardless off their gender or of the victims gender.

Dudess

Balmed Out wrote: »

Giselle wrote: »

Often a woman who comes to public attention will be judged primarily on her looks, regardless of the reason she's in the public eye. Men are still primarily judged on who they are, and what they do. Their fashion choices and weight are rarely scrutinised as if its the most important thing about them.

This has absolutely nothing to do with discrimination of women by men. This is wholly and completely women being judgemental of each other. Do you really think any man gives a rats arse about what Michelle Obama, Margaret Thatcher or Mary Robinson are wearing?
When it comes to discrimination of women too often its women not men that are the cause (the opposite holds true too but I dont believe to the same extent)
Anyone who has worked in a large company will have witnessed vindictive backstabbing of women by women.

Not untrue but "I wouldn't give her a mickey if I'd a bag of them" etc is always being trotted out against female public figures who have the audacity to not be hot.

Dudess

Balmed Out wrote: »

Dudess wrote: »

And what are guys gonna do about these grievances? Apart from bitching about feminists for not taking on their causes? For all their evil and the way they make this world so terrible for men with its male president of America at least feminists try to do something about what they consider discrimination.

Id like to think that most people would oppose discrimination regardless off their gender or of the victims gender.

But turning it into a blame game, often against the wrong target, not doing anything other than whinge, using it for personal venting, and developing a persecution complex across the board is no use for the discriminated.

The Corinthian

Dudess wrote: »

I don't spend my days resenting men because I have it in my head that they're to blame for body issues in women though - because I know it's bollocks and I know men as a gender shouldn't be blamed for personal grievances. A few heads around here should try and consider that take.

Sorry, but where did you deduce that they spend their days resenting women because they have it in their heads that they're to blame for body issues in men?

They're making a case, albeit not a hugely compelling one, but there is no reason to believe that they spend their days resenting men any more than there would be reason to believe that a woman making a similar case would be doing the same against men.

And there's a big difference between not wanting blacks in your neighbourhood and not wanting to have sex with someone.

Yes, one is socially acceptable, the other is not - and incidentally, I'm not suggesting that this should be otherwise.

And what are guys gonna do about these grievances? Apart from bitching about feminists for not taking on their causes? For all their evil and the way they make this world so terrible for men with its male president of America at least feminists try to do something about what they consider discrimination.

I agree. I've repeatedly said that while debating and informing people of such grievances is important, it should be the first step, not the only step. I'm actually rather fed up with all this whinging myself.

Balmed Out

Dudess wrote: »

Not untrue but "I wouldn't give her a mickey if I'd a bag of them" etc is always being trotted out against female public figures who have the audacity to not be hot.

Youve never heard a woman make a similarly disparaging remark ??? I would admit that men probably do the negative remark like that more but its not a one sided thing, far more likely for favourable comments as in "I wouldnt kick her out of the bed for eating a pack of taytos" but when I think about it women probably do this more then men.

Would radio presenters read out overly suggestive texts about a female celebrity in the same way as they would about a male like recently with that bressie guy.

Is this really discrimination though?

Zulu

The comments I hear with regard to ewan mcgregor, guy pearce, and daniel craig...

This is a thread asking about what ways men are discriminated against. Some posts are hitting the note, and some aren't. That said, belittling posters opinions is hardly a route to the truth. Accusing men of "whining" on this thread - a thread asking about male discrimination is poor form, and disingenuous. Couldn't even the most valid complaints of discrimination be dismissed as "whining"?

...and it raises the point...
[Please note: the following is NOT a pop at either this forum or the LL, but I feel it's valid. Frankly, I'm not complaining about either forum, nor am I suggesting any changes to the same, I just want to highlight a difference as to how the topic is handled as I think this mirror the "real world"]
...if this thread was held in the ladies lounge, a male input to a similar thread accusing women of "whining" wouldn't be tolerated, yet men aren't afforded the same privileges on Boards. It would appear that it's acceptable for some women to be wilting roses that need to have their opinions protected from the aggressive men, but men don't need the same protection. A prejudice towards both sexes!