We have been stung again - possibly up to 750 Million.

Biggins

I haven't seen anyone mention this (if they have, apologies).
It looks like the state (you and I) have been stung for up to 750 Million - on top of 750 million we are all ready paying because certain organisations won't cough up that much for their antics.

Anyway, here is the report:

Minister says orders can't pay their share of €1.5bn abuse bill

EDUCATION Minister Ruairi Quinn yesterday admitted publicly for the first time that religious orders don't have the cash or assets to pay their share of the compensation bill for abuse.
And he said he had no intention of bankrupting the orders -- which leaves him facing a massive battle to recover their half of a €1.5bn bill.
The taxpayer is already picking up €750m of the expected final cost but now faces having to pay far more.

In the place of previous offers, Mr Quinn now wants the orders to hand over the deeds of schools and medical facilities to finally settle the deal on compensating victims of abuse in residential institutions.
However, it may prove difficult to implement the handover of deeds as many schools controlled by the orders have been placed in trust and are no longer in the ownership of the orders.

Trusts are complex legal entities, and NUI Maynooth law lecturer Neil Maddox said that the Government was facing a "legal headache" on this front.
So far, the orders have paid, or are in a position to pay, about €200m -- although in some cases, over a longer timescale than originally planned.

Mr Quinn told the Irish Independent: "The property market has collapsed; the market value of capital assets has plummeted.
"Nobody wants to bankrupt the orders, who have made a positive contribution for generations to this country, for which this country is grateful, myself included."
But the Government is not backing down on its demand that 18 congregations covered by the Residential Institutions Redress Scheme split the cost 50:50 with the taxpayer.

The religious orders never accepted the principle of 50:50, and when they topped up their contribution offer in 2009, they did so on a "voluntary" basis.
As the Redress Board, which has made 14,000 awards to date, nears the end of its work, the figure being put on the final cost of the scheme and associated matters is €1.5bn.
The minister accepts the orders are not in a position to come "remotely close" to paying 50pc of the bill but, he said, "they can do something else".
He asked them: "Please give us the title deeds of your educational infrastructure."
The Government is also interested in medical facilities.

Mr Quinn said there was no question of requiring them to vacate properties, or hand over patronage of schools -- rather to make the Government, and ultimately the taxpayer, the "landlord" of the property.
Mr Quinn has met the orders in recent months and is in the process of sending letters to the 18 congregations setting out his position, in a bid to bring finality to the long-running saga.

Shortfall

He said he wanted a written response from them so that he could report progress to the Government. The letter states: "As there is a considerable shortfall to be overcome to realise the 50pc contribution towards the ultimate cost of the response to residential institution child abuse, I would request your congregation's views on how a sharing of the costs on a 50:50 basis will be realised."

The move comes as the Redress Board, which was set up in 2002, finalises its work. In another significant development, the Cabinet last Tuesday approved the shape of legislation to set up a trust, backed by a €110m statutory fund, to provide ongoing support for victims.
It has been generally welcomed, but religious orders and others are concerned that the proposed fund is restricted to those who have already been through the redress system.

The Oblates, one of the 18 congregations, welcomed the decision to establish a trust for former residents but said access to the trust should not be confined only to those who have received payments under the redress scheme.
"We have already emphasised to the Department of Education that access to the trust should be open to all former residents of these institutions, based on need and the fact that many are now elderly and in need of advice, counselling and other supports."

London-based emigrants' rights activist, Sally Mulready, recently appointed a member of the Council of State by President Michael D Higgins, said a small number of people who were among the most vulnerable of the survivors' population should not be excluded from the trust.
"Their failure to apply in time to the Redress Board is part of that vulnerability," she said

Source: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/minister-says-orders-cant-pay-their-share-of-15bn-abuse-bill-3073838.html

---

Very clever (sneaky and sly?) of the org's to put the buildings, etc in trust.
Typical behaviour I have come to expect from them to be honest.

holystungun9

This atheism thing doesn't seem to be working for me. If I was more religious I could screw people over left, right and centre. I really did make the wrong choice.

Mickey Dazzler

Yore Ma

eth0

Biggins wrote: »

I haven't seen anyone mention this (if they have, apologies).
It looks like the state (you and I) have been stung for up to 750 Million - on top of 750 million we are all ready paying because certain organisations won't cough up that much for their antics.

Anyway, here is the report:

What will this 1.5bn be spent on? basically handed to people who claim to have been abused and told to spend it how they like?

lividduck

I,m surprised anyone ever thought that they really would pay up.

WolfgangWeisen

84% of the country say they support this organisation, take the money from them.

If a bailout of the kiddie f-ckers is passed onto the general taxpayer, I welcome any measures taken against the church and its members, up to and including violence.

antodeco

Give me a church and they can have my share!

Mr.Biscuits

Just heard Johnny Logan's releasing a tweaked version of one his old classics in response: "What's another billion".

Nodin

Biggins wrote: »

I haven't seen anyone mention this (if they have, apologies).
It looks like the state (you and I) have been stung for up to 750 Million - on top of 750 million we are all ready paying because certain organisations won't cough up that much for their antics.

Anyway, here is the report:



Source: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/minister-says-orders-cant-pay-their-share-of-15bn-abuse-bill-3073838.html

---

Very clever (sneaky and sly?) of the org's to put the buildings, etc in trust.
Typical behaviour I have come to expect from them to be honest.

In Canada in the early 90's there was a scandal involving the Christian brothers. A court ordered assets to be sold in order to compensate the victims. I'd suggest there was a lesson learned.

Nodin

Quinn wrote:

"Nobody wants to bankrupt the orders

Speak for your fucking self Ruairi.

RiseToTheTop

Jeepers Batman, another Catholic bashing thread!!

The OP could have posted this in the Politics forum, instead he posts it in After Hours.

admiralofthefleet

the richest cult in the world and they are saying they cant afford to pay their share, makes my blood boil. the CAB should seize its assets and sell them
the local catholic cult building in arklow has manicured lawns and trees and the servant of the cult drives an 11-w car

mikemac1

mikemac1 wrote: »

I'm going to get flamed but maybe refuse to step in and pay the compensation? The taxpayer and State I mean

Terrible what happened years ago, I hope a full apology was given but what difference is money going to make now?
Well pay for counselling and whatever support people need but do we need to hand out money for those who came the redress board?

Yep, a flaming is coming

So, people who have already been physically fuked by the authorities getting metaphorically fuked years later by the authorities?

Born to Die

RiseToTheTop wrote: »

Jeepers Batman, another Catholic bashing thread!!

The OP could have posted this in the Politics forum, instead he posts it in After Hours.

I like Biggins as a poster but I am getting the impression that he believes AH is his soapbox.


Must be the intellectual argument he gets here. :pac:

Biggins

eth0 wrote: »

What will this 1.5bn be spent on? basically handed to people who claim to have been abused and told to spend it how they like?

I don't mind how they spend it if the majority of the time its locally or nationally.
Buying whatever they like helps add to our economy.
Be it in small shops or big ones, they are buying items which in turn hopefully helps makes the difference (big or small) to if a business can further survive these tough times.
If by way of penalising those that really should be coughing up with the money, all the better.

As it is, the bulk of the money will be coming from the government (you and I really).
Its unfortunate to say the least but rather than getting angry at those that deserve compensation, we should save that anger instead for an inept two party government that is taking the pee as regards collection of it and at those direct that rather than cough up, is playing legal games to protect themselves yet again!

Born to Die wrote: »

I like Biggins as a poster but I am getting the impression that he believes AH is his soapbox.
Must be the intellectual argument he gets here. :pac:

Actually folks here are more down to earth.
A good mixture of fun, occasional plonkers (myself included at times) and good responses.
I.E. The Irish people more so?


P.S
The thread is not about politics, etc.
Its about we, the public facing yet another bill.
Some might have got that hint by reading the thread title.

I'm tired of having to pay for others mistakes - but I will not hold it against any victims, in their right to claim compensation.
Some day in other circumstances (hopefully not), it could be us too, in their place for some reason.

Gummy Panda

RiseToTheTop wrote: »

Jeepers Batman, another Catholic bashing thread!!

The OP could have posted this in the Politics forum, instead he posts it in After Hours.

Catholic church would get less bashings if they hadn't run wild in Ireland for decades

coffee_cake

WolfgangWeisen wrote: »

84% of the country say they support this organisation, take the money from them.
.

Oh, they're only 84% unless it actually means anything!

I think the orders should be forced to cough up one way or the other. The idea of the deeds is a good one, though I can see there'll be a legal headache since they ran off putting everything "in trust". :mad:

Chuck Stone

The state should move to seize as much church property as they can before the greedy bastards put it 'in trust'.

Just goes to show that well developed property rights trump the rights of victims of abuse.

It's disgusting.

WolfgangWeisen

bluewolf wrote: »

Oh, they're only 84% unless it actually means anything!

I think the orders should be forced to cough up one way or the other. The idea of the deeds is a good one, though I can see there'll be a legal headache since they ran off putting everything "in trust". :mad:

Indeed, bring in a Church tax similar to that in Germany and lets see how many of that 84% put themselves down as Catholic on the next census.

I think whatever needs to be done to seize the properties should be done. There has been enough pandering to the Church and its antics at this stage. If they want to have establishments in which their "members" can practice their faith then Rome can wire over some money to cover the bills they've created for themselves.

steddyeddy

Biggins wrote: »

I haven't seen anyone mention this (if they have, apologies).
It looks like the state (you and I) have been stung for up to 750 Million - on top of 750 million we are all ready paying because certain organisations won't cough up that much for their antics.

Anyway, here is the report:



Source: http://www.independent.ie/national-news/minister-says-orders-cant-pay-their-share-of-15bn-abuse-bill-3073838.html

---

Very clever (sneaky and sly?) of the org's to put the buildings, etc in trust.
Typical behaviour I have come to expect from them to be honest.

Surely the vatican can offer up more cash!

Biggins

steddyeddy wrote: »

Surely the vatican can offer up more cash!

I (and many I suspect) wish!

Nodin

steddyeddy wrote: »

Surely the vatican can offer up more cash!

Well theres "can", and then there's "would" and "will". Its getting from the first to the latter two wherein the difficulty lies.

ejmaztec

If the Church doesn't cough up, I think they can wave goodbye to the 84% as well.

The RCC is fuckin loaded, and 750 mill is chickenfeed to them.

smcgiff

RiseToTheTop wrote: »

Jeepers Batman, another Catholic bashing thread!!

The OP could have posted this in the Politics forum, instead he posts it in After Hours.

Yet another apologist trotting out this weak defence. You just don't get it. They fcuk up they get pulled on it.

If our predecessors held them to account they wouldn't have caused so much damage to their flock or themselves

coffee_cake

The annoying thing I think is that it's operated like a franchise - so the individual churches are on their own

Born to Die

ejmaztec wrote: »

If the Church doesn't cough up, I think they can wave goodbye to the 84% as well.

The RCC is fuckin loaded, and 750 mill is chickenfeed to them.

The 84% is representative of Christians not Catholics. Have a look at the numbers attending mass, they are dwindling.

MagicMarker

ejmaztec wrote: »

If the Church doesn't cough up, I think they can wave goodbye to the 84% as well.

If the cover up of child rape doesn't get people to take their head out of their arses then the church not paying compo is not going to make a blind bit of difference unfortunately.

skelliser

from what i have read the christian brothers and sisters of mercy have spent the last decade setting up new trusts and moving land and assets into these so they cant be taken by the state.

sure look at this place!! http://www.emmauscentre.ie/multi/default.asp?itemId=193
is it a hotel or is it a charity?!!

Manach

The fact the Minister Quinn acknowlegded "Nobody wants to bankrupt the orders, who have made a positive contribution for generations to this country, for which this country is grateful, myself included." - indicates the vast good the orders had done in the country as part of the education/health services.
Plus given the current state of child protection in this country which under HSE control and governance saw hundreds of cases of negligence in the past decade. Strange that the atheist minority are not up in arms about that.

bijapos

WolfgangWeisen wrote: »

84% of the country say they support this organisation, take the money from them.

If a bailout of the kiddie f-ckers is passed onto the general taxpayer, I welcome any measures taken against the church and its members, up to and including violence.

They didn't say they supported them, the question in the census asked what religion you are, not do you practise or support this religion.

RiseToTheTop wrote: »

Jeepers Batman, another Catholic bashing thread!!

The OP could have posted this in the Politics forum, instead he posts it in After Hours.

Hardly Catholic bashing when it's stating a basic true fact is it?

ejmaztec

The State should call their bluff and bankrupt them. The assets were obviously transferred so that they could shirk their responsibilities, so fuck em.