1916 guinness armoured lorrys

vintary

Since this is the anniversary of the easter rebellion of 1916, thought I mite plug my blog page on the armoured vehicles used to crush the rebellion.

http://improvisedmilitaryvehicles.bl...ed-lorrys.html

corktina

thast very interesting. Thanks.

In view of the Railway connection, I have put a link on the rail and train systems forum, hope thats ok

olly_mac

Very interesting!! Thank you for sharing this.

vintary

corktina wrote: »

thast very interesting. Thanks.

In view of the Railway connection, I have put a link on the rail and train systems forum, hope thats ok

That's no bother fire away.............

I also have a blog on the Irish civil war "railway corps R.P.R.&.M.C" if your interested.

Here is my home page with a list of my blogs including the Railway corps.

<<SNIP>>

jonniebgood1

vintary wrote: »

That's no bother fire away.............

I also have a blog on the Irish civil war "railway corps R.P.R.&.M.C" if your interested.

Here is my home page with a list of my blogs including the Railway corps.

<<SNIP>>

This is a discussion forum and generally it is not considered polite to blatantly promote your blogs. If you wish to link to your blog in the context of a discussion then that would be fine but generally promoting ones own blog is not allowed. I have turned a blind eye to the first one as it is genuinely of interest to forum users but if you wish to continue you need to discuss the topics, not just link to them.

I would suggest that you refer to the forum charter.

I would give you as an example the Colonel Allatt mentioned in the link from your OP. The forum would welcome a discussion on him. What is his history, what was the purpose of him coming to Dublin, how did he die (I have read 2 different answers to this), how was he dealt with after his death, etc.

This is just a note for your future reference.

Moderator

vintary

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

This is a discussion forum and generally it is not considered polite to blatantly promote your blogs. If you wish to link to your blog in the context of a discussion then that would be fine but generally promoting ones own blog is not allowed. I have turned a blind eye to the first one as it is genuinely of interest to forum users but if you wish to continue you need to discuss the topics, not just link to them.

I would suggest that you refer to the forum charter.

I would give you as an example the Colonel Allatt mentioned in the link from your OP. The forum would welcome a discussion on him. What is his history, what was the purpose of him coming to Dublin, how did he die (I have read 2 different answers to this), how was he dealt with after his death, etc.

This is just a note for your future reference.

Moderator

Thank you point taking....

johnny_doyle

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

I would give you as an example the Colonel Allatt mentioned in the link from your OP. The forum would welcome a discussion on him. What is his history, what was the purpose of him coming to Dublin, how did he die (I have read 2 different answers to this), how was he dealt with after his death, etc.

would be interested to hear your info re his death.

1916 Rebellion Handbook has him as Killed in Action near the South Dublin Union. Forums have him as died of wounds in Belfast. Soldiers Died in the Great War has him as Died which normally means died of natural causes/disease.

Commonwealth War Graves Commission website has him attached to the Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry (his previous regiment); his medal index card has him attached to the 3rd Battalion, Royal Irish Rifles. He was a Draft Conducting Officer, tasked with bringing drafts of reinforcements of the Royal Irish Rifles to the theatre of operations. France in his case; his first entry to this theatre being 3rd August 1915. 3rd Royal Irish Rifles were based at Portobello Barracks at the time of the rising.

He was Mentioned in Despatches in Jan 1917 for his work during the Easter Rising.

The British Medical Journal has him as died of heart failure in Belfast following his exertions during the rebellion

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2347511/pdf/brmedj07049-0028.pdf

His death registration in Belfast gives year of birth as 1839.

He was born in Feb 1847. Baptised in London in Feb 1848. English census records have him born in France. His father was a Physician with a practice in Boulogne (and then later in Dover).

He was an Ensign in October 1866 in the 46th Regiment of Foot.

He was a Lt in the 1871 census, a Captain in the 1881 census, a Major in the 1891 census and a Colonel in the 1901 census.

In the 1911 census he was a "retired Colonel of HM Land Forces".

jonniebgood1

johnny_doyle wrote: »

would be interested to hear your info re his death.

1916 Rebellion Handbook has him as Killed in Action near the South Dublin Union. Forums have him as died of wounds in Belfast. Soldiers Died in the Great War has him as Died which normally means died of natural causes/disease.

.....

The British Medical Journal has him as died of heart failure in Belfast following his exertions during the rebellion
....

The info is same as that quoted. Some sources say he died from gunshot wounds (as per your explanation).
Others say he died from a heart attack. I suppose the 2 could be related, it is also strange that he died in Belfast (particularly if it was gunshot related).

vintary

Thank you johnny doyle for that excellent and informably information which clearly adds to the subject.


As has been mentioned there is always several sources of references and it is my intention to put a link to this page as a topic of interest.


The information on col H.T.W Allatt is based on this article from the Irish times archive dated Thursday May 11th 1916.

johnny_doyle

as SDGW and his medal index card says he Died rather than Died of Wounds or Killed in Action, I'd go along with the heart attack as cause of death. If he had been wounded seriously he would have been in a Dublin hospital. The travel to Belfast was probably part of his normal role moving men from the Royal Irish Rifles battalions from Belfast and surrounds to Dublin before travelling onwards to France.

Ralph Riccio's book on AFVs In Irish Service Since 1922 has a small bit about these improvised vehicles and references Allatt as having died in Dublin.

Allatt appears to have been a career infantryman and not an engineering type so strange that he got involved with these vehicles.

The other chap involved was Colonel Portal (17th Lancers and later Brigadier General Sir Bertram Percy Portal CB DSO). Both he and Allatt had served in the Boer War. Both had been seconded from their regiments to serve as Staff Officers at points in their career.

Can't help but wonder if they had come across the armoured trains used in the Boer War and used these as the idea for the vehicles.

jonniebgood1

johnny_doyle wrote: »

as SDGW and his medal index card says he Died rather than Died of Wounds or Killed in Action, I'd go along with the heart attack as cause of death. If he had been wounded seriously he would have been in a Dublin hospital. The travel to Belfast was probably part of his normal role moving men from the Royal Irish Rifles battalions from Belfast and surrounds to Dublin before travelling onwards to France.

It seems hard to be definitive.

Colonel Henry Thomas Ward Allatt - Royal Irish Rifles. wounded near the South Dublin Union, died 8th May. A retired officer, re-employed as a recruitment officer. Aged 69. Served with the Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry. Son of Christopher and Mary. Husband of Constance, of Folkestone. Rejoined the Army in August 1914. Buried at Aldershot Military Cemetery, Hampshire. Posthumous MID. http://glosters.tripod.com/Ireland16.htm

johnny_doyle

vintary wrote: »

Thank you johnny doyle for that excellent and informably information which clearly adds to the subject.


As has been mentioned there is always several sources of references and it is my intention to put a link to this page as a topic of interest.


The information on col H.T.W Allatt is based on this article from the Irish times archive dated Thursday May 11th 1916.

I didn't realise that he was in England at the outbreak of the Rising.


As I understand it, the vehicles were constructed at Inchicore on the Wednesday and brought into action on the Thursday.

Allatt (written as Allett) is recorded in the 1916 Rebellion Handbook as being involved in the raid on Sheehy-Skeffington's house on the Friday evening with Capt Bowen-Colthurst.

http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/commons/1917/feb/13/colonel-allett


http://www.ebooksread.com/authors-eng/francis-sheehy-skeffington/a-forgotten-small-nationality--ireland-and-the-war-ala/page-3-a-forgotten-small-nationality--ireland-and-the-war-ala.shtml

The Military refused to produce others, Colonel Allett had died
mysteriously in the interval, according to some he committed suicide
in Belfast when Colthurst was condemned, saying, "The game is up."

johnny_doyle

no proof but can't help but think that the chap high on the left hand side of Vintary's photo as we look at it might be Allatt

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-CiBmFXxfiY0/TqPwaeLpagI/AAAAAAAAAHw/08-eUcx9yLw/s1600/three..jpg

I've seen a reference to Allatt mentioning the use of pigeons during the Siege of Paris during the Franco-Prussian War in an article he wrote in 1886. There's an article on an Australian newspaper referencing a Col Allatt in charge of a provisional battalion using pigeons at Dover (he had a Kent connection and was based at Shorncliffe, Kent in 1894)

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/3211225

Pigeon Post at Aldershot article from 1900
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=36&dat=19001020&id=HxEzAAAAIBAJ&sjid=2CkDAAAAIBAJ&pg=2727,1189323

http://newspapers.nl.sg/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19011004.2.62.aspx

There is a reference here to him having served in the Franco-Prussian War

http://tonghamscouts.co.uk/Our-History.php

His probate record states died Belfast 8th May 1916.

He appears to have 2 patents to his name. One for a contraption to do with saddles, the other to do with chicken coops (he appears to have bred chickens and to have entered competitions).

armadillo1916

I've read many mentions of these lorries, so thanks for the work you put into this Vintary - I'm not "with" my books now, but 2 references come to mind (you may already have them...):

In his book, Inglorious Soldier (Hutchinson, London, 1968), Monk Gibbon gives a great account of the use of these armoured lorries - how loud it was inside when soldiers were firing out the slits, how they used them to pick up rebels and suspects, etc.
He was also famously a witness to Bowen-Colthurst's actions and gives a very good account of the events and aftermath.

There was also a small booklet published in 2000 which had good detail on the lorries:
AFV News, Jan-Apr 2000, Vol 35, No.1, George Bradford, Ontario, 2000 - includes British Use of Armoured Vehicles During the 1916 Easter Rebellion in Ireland by Paul V Walsh.

vintary

armadillo1916 wrote: »

I've read many mentions of these lorries, so thanks for the work you put into this Vintary - I'm not "with" my books now, but 2 references come to mind (you may already have them...):

In his book, Inglorious Soldier (Hutchinson, London, 1968), Monk Gibbon gives a great account of the use of these armoured lorries - how loud it was inside when soldiers were firing out the slits, how they used them to pick up rebels and suspects, etc.
He was also famously a witness to Bowen-Colthurst's actions and gives a very good account of the events and aftermath.

There was also a small booklet published in 2000 which had good detail on the lorries:
AFV News, Jan-Apr 2000, Vol 35, No.1, George Bradford, Ontario, 2000 - includes British Use of Armoured Vehicles During the 1916 Easter Rebellion in Ireland by Paul V Walsh.

I know of the AFV news one but I have not got it as of yet.
I was not aware of Inglorious Soldier, I must keep a eye out for both Thanks...

vintary

Great to see constructive and beneficial interest in this thread.

The caption with the first photo on my blog page regarding H.T.W Allatt
(This is possibly the first lorry to be armoured and the elderly officer standing on the rear of the lorry may even be Col H.T.W Allatt.)
is only my own opinion based solely on the appearance of the elderly gent.

In hindsight,, to directly refer on the blog page to the death of Col Allatt as dying from his wounds was probably incorrect and will be elaborated on.

Over the years books and magazine have giving different details and dates. Information in articles printed in the 70s, in most cases have been just reprinted since, without further research. Up until January 2010 it was my understanding that there were only three lorrys that had been armoured. Thanks to members of the Historic Military Vehicle Forums (HMVF) and a lot of looking through the archive reviled that there were five lorrys and even some images.
http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?16483-photo-second-opinion&highlight=guinness
As shown on this thread there is further information on these lorrys out there even after 96 years.

I have recently received an old 1/35 scale drawings of one of the Daimlers and a couple of excellent good quality photos that to the best of my knowledge one of these photos has never been printed before, they were sent to me by a member of the military vehicle modelling community who contacted me through that blog page.
Attached is another image that I originally left off the blog page (quality bad)

armadillo1916

No problem - this is a subject I'm borderline obsessed with!

I got a cheap copy of the AFV News directly from George Bradford, and I have his contact details if you want to PM me.

I just checked Gibbon online and it's available for a not-so-cheap 36 quid, all the way up to a ridiculous 490 quid ! You'll find it cheaper if you're not in a hurray.
Cheers

vintary

armadillo1916 wrote: »

No problem - this is a subject I'm borderline obsessed with!

I got a cheap copy of the AFV News directly from George Bradford, and I have his contact details if you want to PM me.

I just checked Gibbon online and it's available for a not-so-cheap 36 quid, all the way up to a ridiculous 490 quid ! You'll find it cheaper if you're not in a hurray.
Cheers

PM sent........

johnny_doyle

in the Secret Court Martial Records of the Easter Rising by Brian Barton, there is a reference to the armoured lorries in the chapter re Thomas MacDonagh.

Major James Armstrong (Inniskilling Fusiliers and Provost Marshal 76th Brigade) spoke to Lt W E Wylie (Trinity College OTC defender and prosecutor at the trials) about a scheme to use one of the vehicles to assault the Jacob's factory. Armstrong wasn't very happy about the scheme.

I think that this entry from the Imperial War Museum is his

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1030010612

johnny_doyle

should have posted this before but just prompted by a discussion elsewhere. There are a number of free resources online re the Easter Rising

http://www.digitalbookindex.com/_search/search010hstirelandrebellion1916a.asp

Worth skimming the book by Mrs Norway (Wife of Arthur Hamilton Norway and mother of the author Nevill Shute who did good work with the St John Ambulance during the Rising). She describes 22 soldiers being squeezed into the armoured car plus use for transporting Post Office funds.

vintary

Thank you Johnny Doyle for the information.
I am amazed at the amount of literature that is now available on, not just the 1916 rising but also on the Irish civil war and Anglo Irish war. In respect of Irish history covering the 1916-1924 period it looks like about two books a month on the subject.
As I posted earlier there is still information and even the odd unseen image of the Guinness armoured lorry’s turning up from time to time. The attached image was posted on Facebook last Sunday and it is one I have not seen before which gives an excellent frontal view of the armour on the lorry.

johnny_doyle

another view of a Guinness lorry. This is from a 1970(?) article by Constantine Fitzgibbon with the photo attributed to Dublin photographer Joseph Cashman (worked out of office in Capel St).

A larger view appears in the RTE stills archive.

johnny_doyle

I now have a memo from the Guinness Archives re a request by the British Army for permission to convert vehicles from Guinness to armoured cars.
The memo is from B Dobbs to the Board explaining that Major Deasy had been in touch by telephone on the morning of the 26th April and was seeking an answer by early in the afternoon.

Permission was granted and signed by A E Guinness 26th April 1916.


A note dated 16th May, indicates that 12 petrol motor lorries and 3 Foden steam cars out since Easter Monday were returned leaving 2 motor cars and 2 men out on service.

33 drivers volunteered to assist the military, 20 drivers did not volunteer.

The army had been in touch with Guinness (and presumably other employers with motor vehicles) re possible requisition of vehicles for war work as early as January 1915. In a list dated 2/3/1915, Guinness had, amongst other makes,

4 Milnes Daimler 4 ton lorries
3 Milnes Daimler 5 ton lorries
2 Milnes Daimler 6 ton lorries

3 vehicles were taken by Capt Beattie, ASC, on the 6th March 1916 for war services (2 x Leyland 5 ton lorries and 1 x Commer 4 ton lorry)

johnny_doyle

not conclusive, but the only Major Deasy I've found so far who might have been the officer who contacted Guinness was a Dublin born Henry Hugh Peter Deasy.

http://johnny-doyle.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/henry-hugh-peter-deasy.html

johnny_doyle

armadillo1916 wrote: »

In his book, Inglorious Soldier (Hutchinson, London, 1968), Monk Gibbon gives a great account of the use of these armoured lorries - how loud it was inside when soldiers were firing out the slits, how they used them to pick up rebels and suspects, etc.
He was also famously a witness to Bowen-Colthurst's actions and gives a very good account of the events and aftermath.

Finally managed to get a copy of this book (from ebay for £6.90 inc p&p). As you say, a great account of the use of the armoured cars. Subscribes to Allatt having a heart attack.

armadillo1916

johnny_doyle wrote: »

Finally managed to get a copy of this book (from ebay for £6.90 inc p&p). As you say, a great account of the use of the armoured cars. Subscribes to Allatt having a heart attack.

Hello again!
Well done - that's a good price. I said way back that if a buyer wasn't in a hurry , they'd get a good deal in a while, but I didn't think it'd take that long!

There are still some previously unpublished accounts of these lorries coming out, and no doubt more as The Centenary approaches.

Not long now...

vintary

Courtesy of facebook

johnny_doyle

the following has an image of one of the Rolls Royce armoured cars used after the Rising as well as one of the improvised Guinness vehicles

http://digital.ucd.ie/get/ivrla:30653/pdf

Barton and Foy's book on the Easter Rising has the same picture of the Rolls Royce armoured car and writes that the Rolls Royce cars became familiar to the population during the Rising.

Charles Townshend (Easter 1916 The Irish Rebellion) writes that the request for the Rolls Royces was only sent on the 30th April; David Fletcher in one of his books (The Rolls Royce Armoured Car) suggests that 7 Rolls Royce armoured were sent to Ireland in May 1916.

Any info out there about the Rolls Royces and their use in May 1916 onwards?

vintary

That Rolls Royce armoured car image has been around for a while, as I'm sure you have notice the image was taking in the Royale barracks.


One of the Leprechaun sellers on Ebay has a poor copy of it for sale for years, the same seller that has the 1916 Easter rising armoured car image for sale-?, which happens to be a 1920 model Peerless.