What's the etiquette in Hospitals or nursing homes when...

Cicero

...7 patients die in care and all the fcuking HSE can say is ..as reported by RTE...." There are lessons to be learnt "
http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0408/seventh-nazareth-resident-dies-of-influenza.html

Surely when just one elderly patient contracts a potentially lethal virus, it should be action stations all round...

When six patients died, an investigation began...sorry that's too late...

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0403/1224314298223.html

...if you've ever been in hospital you will know how vulnerable a time that is...these days if you complain in hospitals they set a security guard on you....I don't give a feic about the excuse around funding....level of care has dropped to dangerous levels but there are basics that are not being adhered to ...so.....you're in hospital tomorrow morning ....nurse comes in.....doesn't wash his/her hands...and proceeds to attend to you....what do you say....I reckon you say nothing....coz ure sick ...and you trust they have your interests at heart....

...well fck that...that's what I did in the past...but....never again will I put up and shut up......

Being a patient in a hospital or place of care you expect people will look after your best interests...there is a lot of questions to be answered in this case....if they know how harmful these viruses are to the elderly, why wasn't there an emergency plan put into place straight away??...not after 5 people died.....

It's a disgrace....

TeddyTedson

I can never get over how bad our hospitals actually are.
They through money into them during the boom.
I doubt they'll ever be right actually.
The system has been too messed up at this stage.

I paid €150 to visit a consultant recently for 10mins
I've been going a few times over the last 2 years:eek:
The guy is on 250,000 - 300,000 a year from the state alone. Disgraceful really that **** like this can't and won't ever be rectified.

MagicMarker

It's a nursing home, not a hospital, so wtf are you talking about?

It's an outbreak of the flu, old people don't react well to the flu.

bbam

In fairness to the home in question.
Some of the residents who died were near 100. Old people die.
2 during a week isn't too unusual in a large home.
3rd one can happen. Then on the fourth it was reported.

Some had the flu vaccine but alas it isn't that good this year.


There is no excuse for poor hygiene in hospitals and indeed it should be called out.

Cicero

MagicMarker wrote: »

It's a nursing home, not a hospital, so wtf are you talking about?

It's an outbreak of the flu, old people don't react well to the flu.

So MagicMarker...tell all in after hours what your standards of medical care should be...in a nursing home......

..so MagicMarker thinks hospital care should have one standard and nursing homes should ignore the medical research and have lower standards....great...

Ghost Train

I'd imagine the etiquette is the usual when people die, flowers, funerals, bingo and bridge cancelled for a few days

Cicero

Ghost Train wrote: »

I'd imagine the etiquette is the usual when people die, flowers, funerals, bingo and bridge cancelled for a few days

Actually ...no..funnily enough....it's an internal investigation.....but youdo get points for trying.....*pats Ghost Train on the head*

drkpower

what do you suggest the response should be to old people dying of the flu?

eth0

Nursing homes are places you spend maybe a few weeks or months before you die. If you are unlucky you might spend years in one, but there is a very high turnover of 'guests' and its a last-stop-before-death saloon.

I can imagine they just said "ah **** the freezer is full and the funeral home won't take em anymore!"

hairyprincess

Ghost Train wrote: »

I'd imagine the etiquette is the usual when people die, flowers, funerals, bingo and bridge cancelled for a few days

WHAT?!?!?!?!?! :eek::eek::eek:

Not a hope of me winding up in one of those joints :mad:

MagicMarker

Cicero wrote: »

So MagicMarker...tell all in after hours what your standards of medical care should be...in a nursing home......

..so MagicMarker thinks hospital care should have one standard and nursing homes should ignore the medical research and have lower standards....great...

Well..... cicero....... I think....... opening posts...... should have something......... to do........... with the...... linked news article......... they're complaining about.

Cicero

drkpower wrote: »

what do you suggest the response should be to old people dying of the flu?

7... In one hospital/ care facility?...in the space of 2 weeks?...well, if you're putting the question back on me, you obviously don't have any experience of relatives in care ...if you did , you just wouldn't ask that question....

drkpower

Cicero wrote: »

drkpower wrote: »

what do you suggest the response should be to old people dying of the flu?

7... In one hospital/ care facility?...in the space of 2 weeks?...well, if you're putting the question back on me, you obviously don't have any experience of relatives in care ...if you did , you just wouldn't ask that question....

So you dont have any suggestions then? Anything at all? Or are you just venting?

Cicero

MagicMarker wrote: »

Well..... cicero....... I think....... opening posts...... should have something......... to do........... with the...... linked news article......... they're complaining about.

I don't....if you depend on my opening post to have a serious view about this topic that affects 100,000''s of people in Ireland this evening.....then either you don't give a fck or you're clueless on the topic ....


...

hondasam

Cicero wrote: »

It's a disgrace....

I don't know anything about the home or how well it is run or how well the patients are looked after but old people are vulnerable to this type of flu, I'm not sure it has anything to do with neglect.

0066ad

drkpower wrote: »

So you dont have any suggestions then? Anything at all? Or are you just venting?

I think the op, did have a suggestion. why wait till six patients die from the
same flu virus before starting an investigation.

hairyprincess

0066ad wrote: »

I think the op, did have a suggestion. why wait till six patients die from the
same flu virus before starting an investigation.

They were very old, it's a flu and highly contagious. No need for an investigation imo. Old people do not have good immune systems and no doubt at this time of year there weren't too many windows open letting in fresh air.

An investigation is only going to cause irreparable damage to the nursing home. And create suspicion

drkpower

0066ad wrote: »

drkpower wrote: »

So you dont have any suggestions then? Anything at all? Or are you just venting?

I think the op, did have a suggestion. why wait till six patients die from the
same flu virus before starting an investigation.

should the deaths of one, or two, or three, or four, or five elderly people from a respiratory illness prompt an investigation?

What is the appropriate number? And what is the rationale?

Cicero

hondasam wrote: »

I don't know anything about the home or how well it is run or how well the patients are looked after but old people are vulnerable to this type of flu,

So why were the HSE only called in after 5 people died if it's such a well known fact..Which it is..

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/hse-only-told-about-fatal-flu-outbreak-after-five-had-died-3070189.html


By Eilish O'Regan and Anita Guidera
Wednesday April 04 2012
HEALTH authorities were left in the dark about a spate of deaths at a nursing home until after five residents had passed away and illness had swept through the facility.

Influenza claimed the lives of six elderly people who died in a private nursing home, tests confirmed last night.

Eleven other residents at Nazareth House at Fahan, near Buncrana, Co Donegal, are also suffering with respiratory symptoms similar to the residents who died.

The Sisters of Nazareth, the order of nuns who run the private home, expressed their deepest condolences on the passing of six residents.

"This is an extremely upsetting time for the families of the deceased and we continue to provide the residents at Nazareth Nursing Home with the highest standard of care," said a spokesman.

The Health Service Executive (HSE) was not told of the flu deaths among residents until last Sunday night.

drkpower

Cicero wrote: »

So why were the HSE only called in after 5 people died if it's such a well known .

What would calling them in earlier have achieved precisely?

Mezcita

TeddyTedson wrote: »

I paid €150 to visit a consultant recently for 10mins
I've been going a few times over the last 2 years:eek:
The guy is on 250,000 - 300,000 a year from the state alone. Disgraceful really that **** like this can't and won't ever be rectified.

You paid €150 quid to a guy who has trained for at least 15 years to be an expert in his particular area. The very same guy who makes the call about how to treat your particular illness so that you may actually recover from it.

This idea that the wages of highly skilled people should be slashed is just ridiculous. If say, his salary was brought down to 50k per annum he would either:

a. Never train to be a Doctor in the first place.
b. Just become a Consultant in a different country.

If you are not happy with your Consultant go to a different one. If €150 quid is too much to pay for your health go see some quack who never passed an exam.

hondasam

Cicero wrote: »

So why were the HSE only called in after 5 people died if it's such a well known fact..Which it is..

I'm not sure what calling the HSE would have achieved, it might be best practise to inform them. Are you saying there is something suspicious about the deaths?
Older people are more vulnerable to infection. This link is from last week.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0403/donegal-nursing-home-patients-died-from-influenza.html

annascott

I drove past Nazareth House last week and was overcome with a feeling of sadness. It felt a little creepy. At work, we were discussing the deaths and could not understand why it was all being kept so low-key. Imagine how anxious you would feel if you had a parent in there. We were wondering if the virus theory was covering for a Shipman style killer...

Where To

Some of the media reporting was incredibly harsh and unjustified on the home in question.

Old people die.
There's not a lot can be done about that.

Cicero

hondasam wrote: »

I'm not sure what calling the HSE would have achieved, it might be best practise to inform them. Are you saying there is something suspicious about the deaths?
Older people are more vulnerable to infection. This link is from last week.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0403/donegal-nursing-home-patients-died-from-influenza.html

I am not saying anything is suspicious about the deaths....I am simply asking why 7 people died in the same nursing home over the period of 2 weeks...and all that AH can come up with is..."..they were old..."

0066ad

drkpower wrote: »

should the deaths of one, or two, or three, or four, or five elderly people from a respiratory illness prompt an investigation?

What is the appropriate number? And what is the rationale?

In my job, i visit 3 to 4 four nursing homes in the week, you would not believe
how dirty some of these places are, it's all clean looking on the service but
under neat it's a totally different scene.

I have seen coal bags used as anti wet sheets, people left in their own body fluids, people tied to their chair. I had to take furniture out of one room, only to be told after wards that the women still in the room had mrsa

Grayson

TeddyTedson wrote: »

I paid €150 to visit a consultant recently for 10mins
I've been going a few times over the last 2 years:eek:
The guy is on 250,000 - 300,000 a year from the state alone. Disgraceful really that **** like this can't and won't ever be rectified.

I live with a guy who's going to do his consultancy exams in a few months. He's been studying since he was 16. He's in his mid thirties now. And he does study, every single day for an hour or two. The guy's put more work in than 99% of the people out there who earn a couple of hundred grand.

But to agree with your other point. The health service is a mess. And my housemate would agree.

drkpower

Cicero wrote: »

hondasam wrote: »

I'm not sure what calling the HSE would have achieved, it might be best practise to inform them. Are you saying there is something suspicious about the deaths?
Older people are more vulnerable to infection. This link is from last week.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0403/donegal-nursing-home-patients-died-from-influenza.html

I am not saying anything is suspicious about the deaths....I am simply asking why 7 people died in the same nursing home over the period of 2 weeks...and all that AH can come up with is..."..they were old..."

old people die of flu, thousands and thousands of them.being a contagious disease, it often happens in clusters.

Do you have any alternative suggestions as to how they died? or are you just pointlessly moaning?

Cicero

Doubt has been created in the media about this case which should be enough impetous to obtain answers quickly and to reassure all...

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/hse-only-told-about-fatal-flu-outbreak-after-five-had-died-3070189.html


Dr Wright was speaking after laboratory tests confirmed the AH3 strain of flu, which can be particularly dangerous for elderly people, was responsible for the deaths of all the residents.

He said he could not comment on whether lives would have been saved if authorities were alerted earlier but it was good practice to inform the public health unit as soon as possible.

drkpower

0066ad wrote: »

In my job, i visit 3 to 4 four nursing homes in the week, you would not believe
how dirty some of these places are, it's all clean looking on the service but
under neat it's a totally different scene.

I have seen coal bags used as anti wet sheets, people left in their own body fluids, people tied to their chair. I had to take furniture out of one room, only to be told after wards that the women still in the room had mrsa

What does that have to do with anything I posted?

annascott

In fairness, [up until now] the place had a really good reputation...

0066ad

drkpower wrote: »

What does that have to do with anything I posted?

Hygiene

drkpower

0066ad wrote: »

drkpower wrote: »

What does that have to do with anything I posted?

Hygiene

how does that answer the questions I posed?

Cicero

annascott wrote: »

In fareness, [up until now] the place had a really good reputation...

I'm not disputing the reputation of the home...my question stems from the fact that 5 people died before the specialist medical unit was notified as reported by the Irish Independent and as I listened to live on RTE 1 drive time last week..

hondasam

Cicero wrote: »

I am not saying anything is suspicious about the deaths....I am simply asking why 7 people died in the same nursing home over the period of 2 weeks...and all that AH can come up with is..."..they were old..."

I don't know what to say tbh, it's sad they died but an investigation is not required unless there is some suspicion of neglect.

Cicero

hondasam wrote: »

I don't know what to say tbh, it's sad they died but an investigation is not required unless there is some suspicion of neglect.

You obviously have read none of my posts...there really is no talking to you...AH is obviously deaf on the issue of elderly deaths....so be it....

fedor.2.

hondasam wrote: »

I don't know what to say tbh, it's sad they died but an investigation is not required unless there is some suspicion of neglect.

Thanks detective

hondasam

Cicero wrote: »

You obviously have read none of my posts...there really is no talking to you...AH is obviously deaf on the issue of elderly deaths....so be it....

I have read your posts, what more can I say, I cannot talk for all of AH's but I'm sure no one wants to see anyone dying old or young.

gordon_gekko

Cicero wrote: »

You obviously have read none of my posts...there really is no talking to you...AH is obviously deaf on the issue of elderly deaths....so be it....

the most trivial of percieved neglect against the elderly in this country ( letters from revenue , miniscule cuts in fuel allowance ) inspires howls of outrage and hyperbole from various ( well paid ) spokespeople employed by the state , if thier was even the slightest suspicion of wrongdoing surrounding the death of theese people in thier eighties and nineties , it would be a national scandal and give joe duffy enough material alone for the next two years

they were very old , the only thing that brings this story out of the ordinary is that a sizeable number died in the same place within a short space of time

MagicMarker

OP, do you have any evidence at all that the nursing home is responsible for these deaths? Do you have any evidence at all that these deaths were a result of neglect?

Dudess

Wonder why they weren't vaccinated.

hondasam

According to what I read four of the patients who died were vaccinated. I don't know about the others, you would think all patients in nursing homes would be vaccinated unless there was some medical reason they could not receive the flu injection.

daenerysstormborn3

Mezcita wrote: »

You paid €150 quid to a guy who has trained for at least 15 years to be an expert in his particular area. The very same guy who makes the call about how to treat your particular illness so that you may actually recover from it.

This idea that the wages of highly skilled people should be slashed is just ridiculous. If say, his salary was brought down to 50k per annum he would either:

a. Never train to be a Doctor in the first place.
b. Just become a Consultant in a different country.

If you are not happy with your Consultant go to a different one. If €150 quid is too much to pay for your health go see some quack who never passed an exam.

Grayson wrote: »

I live with a guy who's going to do his consultancy exams in a few months. He's been studying since he was 16. He's in his mid thirties now. And he does study, every single day for an hour or two. The guy's put more work in than 99% of the people out there who earn a couple of hundred grand.

But to agree with your other point. The health service is a mess. And my housemate would agree.

I think the point the poster was making about the experience with paying the Consultant €150 for a 10 minute consultation was the fact that this Consultant also gets paid a quarter of a million by the State, not to mention the money these guys command for short consultations to create medical reports for legal cases.

starbelgrade

"OLD PEOPLE DIE IN NURSING HOME SHOCKER"

hooradiation

MagicMarker wrote: »

OP, do you have any evidence at all that the nursing home is responsible for these deaths? Do you have any evidence at all that these deaths were a result of neglect?

pfff, who needs any of that when you're OUTRAGED!

Dudess

I've no knowledge of vaccinating but if they were given the flu jab yet still succumbed to the virus, I'm not sure this could have been avoided.

bob50

i really do feel if old people have have the flu vaccine in the autumn it should help them if they do in fact die from the "Flu" as reported by rte otherwise its worthless in having old people vaccinated apparantley it dosent offer any protection

Something stinks here

starbelgrade

Dudess wrote: »

I've no knowledge of vaccinating but if they were given the flu jab yet still succumbed to the virus, I'm not sure this could have been avoided.

I don't know if they were vaccinated or not but a flu jab to an old age pensioner doesn't mean that the flu won't still kill them.

gordon_gekko

starbelgrade wrote: »

I don't know if they were vaccinated or not but a flu jab to an old age pensioner doesn't mean that the flu won't still kill them.

it doesnt even mean a twenty year old wont contact the flu let alone prevent an eighty year old from dieing of influenza

drkpower

bob50 wrote: »

Something stinks here

Your understanding of how the flu vaccine works?

Clue: it is not effective against all flu strains

teddy b123

TeddyTedson wrote: »

.....

I paid €150 to visit a consultant recently for 10mins
I've been going a few times over the last 2 years:eek:
The guy is on 250,000 - 300,000 a year from the state alone. Disgraceful really that **** like this can't and won't ever be rectified.

Disgraceful is being told you have to wait several months to see them for those ten minutes!