any idea what metal is it ?

scamalert

so today was by wicklow mountains and by one of the mountain rivers found this interesting looking metal,though it might be aluminum but magnets doesn't stick to it,also tried burning it with lighter , but it only get black tan on it that cleans off,its about 100-200grams,so no idea is this some sort of burnt rubbish that got washed out or some type of metal.all ideas welcome.
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slowburner

scamalert wrote: »

so today was by wicklow mountains and by one of the mountain rivers found this interesting looking metal,though it might be aluminum but magnets doesn't stick to it,also tried burning it with lighter , but it only get black tan on it that cleans off,its about 100-200grams,so no idea is this some sort of burnt rubbish that got washed out or some type of metal.all ideas welcome.
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Aluminium is not ferrous, so the magnet test doesn't rule out Aluminium. All the magnet will tell you, is whether or not the metal contains iron.
It's unlikely that a lighter could generate enough heat to change the structure of the more common metals, apart from blackening, so that doesn't tell us very much either.
Both Lead and Zinc could have this appearance, but only if they had recently been smelted.

It appears that the 'ingot' is on a road, not by a river.
It's obviously been taken out of the original context you described.
It would be helpful if you could give more details about the circumstances.
Were there signs of burning or litter nearby, for example?
It's a bit shiny for something of archaeological interest.
My guess is Aluminium or Zinc from backyard burning, but I'd like some more info.

Riamfada

I'd say something left over from the burning of a car?

scamalert

Sorry forgot to mention all the details,picture taken in my garage,as i brought it back,it was found down at the waterfall area,altough there where signs of rubbish around the area,but my guess it was washed out from other area to end up there.Also the other side is almost flat and have signs of yellowish like burn.Sorry if this is a wrong forum as i didnt know where else to post

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Riamfada

Not the wrong forum at all. If its been placed in the landscape anytime before the present it's archaeology of some sort, no rules saying it has o be old. Then again we are not sure what it's.

scamalert

slowburner wrote: »

My guess is Aluminium or Zinc from backyard burning, but I'd like some more info.

tried sratching it with the knife and it has that shiny color like aluminum,also there are few smallish stones stuck in it,the area didnt have any camp site anywhere close to it just couple washed out papers,if it was melted then in someones back yard as stated and thrown away for couple years to swim around.

olly_mac

How heavy is it? It could be some sort of lead oxide. There was a lot of lead mining in Wicklow in the 19th century. Possible it may be part of this process?

I also think I read somewhere that tin was mined in the area, but am not sure of this.

Just re-read your original post... seems too light to be lead.

slowburner

olly_mac wrote: »

How heavy is it? It could be some sort of lead oxide. There was a lot of lead mining in Wicklow in the 19th century. Possible it may be part of this process?

I also think I read somewhere that tin was mined in the area, but am not sure of this.

Just re-read your original post... seems too light to be lead.

Tin was never found in Ireland - Cornwall is the nearest source.

scamalert

made few better pics,it seems large enough but weights between 100-150g not more,just hope its nothing toxic

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Riamfada

It looks to me like some form of slag. It seems to have the reddish brown Iron colour about it. COuld be wrong though.

Jakub25

I think it is natural aluminium nugget, you can find theme as well on the beaches.
It' look like a Melted aluminium alloy, not human work.

olly_mac

slowburner wrote: »

Tin was never found in Ireland - Cornwall is the nearest source.

I have to admit it is a while since I read this article, but J.S. Jackson ('The geology and raw materials of the Bronze Age' in M.Ryan (ed), 'The Origins of Metallurgy in Atlantic Europe'. Dublin, 1991.) put forward a theory, based on trace analysis of ores in the Avoca river, that there was/is just as much tin as gold, and that it was a possible source for some of the tin used in bronze production in Ireland.

I cannot put my hand on the article right now, so all above with a grain of salt for the moment ... my memory may be playing tricks....

slowburner

Now you've got me started on my favourite subject :pac::pac:
There are traces of all sorts of minerals in the Avoca river.
G.A.Kinahan mentioned tin being in association with the black sand of Croghan Kinsella. I think someone might even have made a trial there in the 19th C, but no lode was ever found.

Tin.
This important mineral is recorded by Griffith as
occurring with lead and zinc in a lode in Dalkey, County
Dublin. It also occurs in the "black sand" with the
gold in the diluvial workings or " placer mines," County
Wicklow, but no lode of it has been discovered in that
county.

(G.Henry Kinahan. 1878. Manual of the Geology of Ireland.)

I've a soft spot for Jackson - he was a great mentor to Billy O'Brien and without Jackson, the Mount Gabriel mines would not have been as significant.
There was certainly ancient mining for copper around Avoca, so it's not beyond reason to suspect that there may have been a certain amount of mining (probably placer) for tin.
I tend to think that trading with Cornwall was more likely. The links between Avoca and Cornwall have always been very strong.

The biggest problem with researching ancient mining in Avoca is the extent of recent mining. Many Victorian writers remarked on 'Old Men's Workings' or 'Dane's Works' - these were noted mines of antiquity which frequently gave later prospectors an idea of where to make trials, often with black powder and you can guess what happened to the old mines.
There are still a few probable early mine sites, but it is impossible to date them without excavation. Dating these early workings is a challenge - the extent of mining in the area is historically documented back to the 2nd C and there are hints of even earlier workings. 18th and 19th c mine workings are easily identified but there are some which don't fit the modern picture at all.
Like this one.


If the dark staining visible on the left face of the bedrock is from smoke, then this adit could predate the 16th C and could be even earlier. The difficulty with identifying smoke damage is that some of the minerals oxidise and leave a stain which could easily be misinterpreted.

This picture shows how manganese staining could be misinterpreted as smoke staining. I was certain that I had found an adit portal with evidence of fire setting (note the fire reddened spoil which drew me to the spot).

olly_mac

I will grant you a much broader knowledge of the subject than i have ! The only reason I actually read the Jackson piece was in relation to some research on sword production through the ages. The bit about the tin just stuck in my mind.

I am becoming very interested in industrial archaeology, but I am limited by my historians love of the written source ... I should get out and walk the landscape more often...

slowburner

olly_mac wrote: »

I will grant you a much broader knowledge of the subject than i have ! The only reason I actually read the Jackson piece was in relation to some research on sword production through the ages. The bit about the tin just stuck in my mind.

I am becoming very interested in industrial archaeology, but I am limited by my historians love of the written source ... I should get out and walk the landscape more often...

Just as I need to study the written word much more.
It's hard though, I live right in the thick of it, and when I get a whiff of something, my legs get restless.

When you say 'industrial archaeology' - I presume you mean post 18th C ?
There are a wealth of sources on mining and metallurgy from the late 18th up to the late 19th - enough to quench any historian's thirst for the written word.
The latter half of the 19th C especially, saw a frenzy of activity.
George Henry Kinahan (short biog attached) was especially prolific on geological matters but was a keen observer of antiquities too.
It's very difficult to find reliable sources prior to the 17th C.
I have my doubts that many primary sources survive.
Any secondary source references behave like ghosts - you thought you saw them and then you are convinced you imagined it.
I am nearly sure that I saw mention somewhere, that two of Strongbow's comrades were involved in iron mining/working around here - but I might have imagined it.
There are isolated references in the Annals too, which hint at ancient mining.

Riamfada

I have asked a geologenius that I know, will report back.

slowburner

Riamfada wrote: »

I have asked a geologenius that I know, will report back.

Looking forward to the geologenius's verdict

scamalert

Also show him my aluminium scrap,maybe he will identify it

slowburner

Riamfada wrote: »

I'd say something left over from the burning of a car?

I came across this very similar lump while walking along the banks of a remote Wicklow stream today. It was amongst some other burned crap - almost certainly from a car?
The metal looked very similar to the OP. It was very like lead in appearance but light in weight.
What metal or alloy would be in a car to melt like this?
I'd guess the quantities in both instances are about the same?

scamalert

looks a lot like mine,just mine is shiny but shape suggests that yeah it must came from some burnt out wehicle.

slowburner

scamalert wrote: »

looks a lot like mine,just mine is shiny but shape suggests that yeah it must came from some burnt out wehicle.

Any idea what metals are in wehicles, which might melt like this?

scamalert

since its pretty clean has to be something from under the engine or exhaust.

slowburner

I'm wondering if it could be an accumulation of solder from all the circuitry behind the dashboard, or wherever the circuit boards are in a car. It's about the right weight and hardness for solder.