Pay cuts threat to profession

byhookorbycrook

http://www.independent.ie/national-news … 74611.html
"A dramatic fall in interest in teaching as a career has raised fears that education cuts are turning top students away from the job.
Demand for teaching courses in the CAO is down 11pc since 2008, sparking concern that it will translate into lower calibre students entering the profession.
New teachers have suffered even bigger pay cuts than other public servants in recent years, while job opportunities are shrinking.
Growing worries about the quality of entrants to teaching has prompted Education Minister Ruairi Quinn into action to minimise the latest threat to their pay."

drunkmonkey

You could look at it in a positive light and say the people wanting to be teachers now are doing it because they want to be teachers. If the 11% that didn't apply were really only motivated by money you don't really want them in the profession.

imitation

I think the biggest problem is the moratorium on jobs, anybody trying to get into teaching at the minute either has to be strung along on short term contracts or emigrate. The public sector is such a closed shop these days and I think its the thing that hurts it the most.

byhookorbycrook

drunkmonkey wrote: »

You could look at it in a positive light and say the people wanting to be teachers now are doing it because they want to be teachers. If the 11% that didn't apply were really only motivated by money you don't really want them in the profession.

You could, but if a person is going to do a 4 yr degree,be temporary(if lucky) for years, the brightest and best may well consider doing something else. Love of the job won't put food on the table, sadly.

Powerhouse

drunkmonkey wrote: »

You could look at it in a positive light and say the people wanting to be teachers now are doing it because they want to be teachers. If the 11% that didn't apply were really only motivated by money you don't really want them in the profession.

Very true. In fact why not follow this to its unavoidable corollary and make all jobs entirely voluntary so we can be sure that only those who really want to be there are doing them? Presumably that would achieve something.

dambarude

There are plenty of students in college with me at the moment who openly wonder if they made the right choice of career.

I'm not equating Leaving Cert points with good teaching, but if anything, the LC measures how willing you are to put in quite a bit of hard work. No matter what resources a person has, very few would get over 500 points without a lot of study. The same level of dedication is needed to get through a B.Ed degree in any of the colleges, as is the case when somebody actually gets into the classroom.

I've said it here before; people choosing to do teaching aren't answering a calling like a nun or a priest. Why is it such a taboo for a teacher to actually want a good salary? Many people choosing to do teaching have enough points to do much higher paid jobs, and if I'm honest I think they'd be crazy not to choose those over teaching at the moment.

ntlbell

surley if you're a "top student" you're not choosing teaching as an occupation?

dambarude

ntlbell wrote: »

surley if you're a "top student" you're not choosing teaching as an occupation?

And therein lies the problem. Why shouldn't you?

ntlbell

dambarude wrote: »

And therein lies the problem. Why shouldn't you?

because you should be going on to do more a more challenging course/job.

dambarude

ntlbell wrote: »

because you should be going on to do more a more challenging course/job.

Pardon me, I had forgotten that teachers have it very easy. No challenge there at all. Do you honestly think that the job isn't challenging?

I can only speak for primary teaching courses, but anybody who has come out the other side of a B.Ed or PGDEPT will tell you that they are one some of the most stressful and time consuming courses you could do.

aN.Droid

dambarude wrote: »

And therein lies the problem. Why shouldn't you?

He who can, does. He who cannot, teaches. Not my words but those of George Bernard Shaws.

ntlbell

dambarude wrote: »

Pardon me, I had forgotten that teachers have it very easy. No challenge there at all. Do you honestly think that the job isn't challenging?

I'm sure it has it's challenge's so does laying bricks, But I don't really want to have my brain tumor removed by a brick layer do you?

dambarude wrote: »

I can only speak for primary teaching courses, but anybody who has come out the other side of a B.Ed or PGDEPT will tell you that they are one some of the most stressful and time consuming courses you could do.

Irrelvant. We need our "top talent" doing top jobs. Not tanning themselves on the public purse 4/5 months of the year

dambarude

ntlbell wrote: »

I'm sure it has it's challenge's so does laying bricks, But I don't really want to have my brain tumor removed by a brick layer do you?

You wouldn't mind your children being taught by a brick layer though? (Absolutely no offence meant to brick layers).

ntlbell wrote: »

Irrelvant. We need our "top talent" doing top jobs. Not tanning themselves on the public purse 4/5 months of the year

Since when do teachers have 5 months holidays? That's just ridiculous. It's because of this attitude that I'm most concerned for the profession. It's obviously no longer held in any esteem by the public.

ntlbell

dambarude wrote: »

You wouldn't mind your children been taught by a brick layer though? (Absolutely no offence meant to brick layers).

In a lot of cases they might be better off. Judging teachers who thought me, who have thought my child and who i know personally.

dambarude wrote: »

Since when do teachers have 5 months holidays? That's just ridiculous. It's because of this attitude that I'm most concerned for the profession. It's obviously no longer held in any esteem by the public.

well taking a secondary school teacher.

3 months for the summer. two weeks at xmas? two weeks at easter? there's 4 i'm sure there's more.

aN.Droid

dambarude wrote: »

Since when do teachers have 5 months holidays? That's just ridiculous. It's because of this attitude that I'm most concerned for the profession. It's obviously no longer held in any esteem by the public.

I believe it all adds up, summer for 3 months (if you are a secondary school teacher) 2 weeks at xmas, 2 mid term breaks, and all the weekends. Ofcourse I am sure teachers don't lounge around tanning themselfs for all that time as they will probably be marking tests and other such stuff or learning the latest curriculum.

dambarude

Limericks wrote: »

I believe it all adds up, summer for 3 months (if you are a secondary school teacher) 2 weeks at xmas, 2 mid term breaks, and all the weekends.

Sure if you're going to include all the weekends, everybody is on too many holidays! This it the type of hyperbole that is flung at teachers left, right and centre, which no other profession has to deal with.

ntlbell

dambarude wrote: »

Sure if you're going to include all the weekends, everybody is on too many holidays! This it the type of hyperbole that is flung at teachers left, right and centre, which no other profession has to deal with.

can you debunk the hyperbole and explain exactly how many days a secondary school teacher gets? so we can stop talking rubbish?

dambarude

ntlbell wrote: »

can you debunk the hyperbole and explain exactly how many days a secondary school teacher gets? so we can stop talking rubbish?

I don't know how many a secondary teacher gets, I'm not a secondary teacher. Neither am I a primary teacher (yet, give it a few weeks).

aN.Droid

dambarude wrote: »

Sure if you're going to include all the weekends, everybody is on too many holidays! This it the type of hyperbole that is flung at teachers left, right and centre, which no other profession has to deal with.

Sorry but I was not exaggerating at all I was just chiming in with my thoughts on where the 5 month's would add up from. I even went as far as to back up your point that teachers do not lounge around on there down time but mark tests and learn the latest curriculum's and teaching strategies.

I have nothing but respect for those that teach our young as without them we would be nowhere.

I think this thread is hitting home a little too much with you.

Powerhouse

Limericks wrote: »

He who can, does. He who cannot, teaches. Not my words but those of George Bernard Shaws.

So you don't have an opinion of your own then?

number10a

ntlbell wrote: »

surley if you're a "top student" you're not choosing teaching as an occupation?

Combined with attitudes like this where teaching is looked down on as a profession, and the severe cuts in wages, I am on the first plane out of here in August once I secure a job for myself. Due to qualify in May and I should hear back about one interview this week.

I was one of the top students in my LC year. I have a BA and an MA, and I nearly have my H. Dip in Primary Ed. That may make it look like I got into the H. Dip. by the back door because I didn't have enough points (makes no difference to me how someone got in, but it may to the high horse types). I had plenty points actually. I just didn't know I wanted primary teaching when I was in LC.

I'm not choosing teaching as a scraping of the barrel option, or for the holidays. I want to be a teacher. I love being a teacher. I have an unbelievable passion for the job. I have never disliked a minute I spent working in any school. Not wanting to blow my own trumpet, but I reckon with my passion/enthusiasm combined with my knowledge I will make a good teacher as will *many* others like me. But, I'm not sticking around here to get irregular subbing hours/a temporary contract and constant wage cuts combined with new taxes. My classmates are of the same persuasion too.

Teachers who love their job and want to enjoy it and the financial benefits they get from it are leaving and will continue to leave and many will probably never come back. A huge amount of the good ones will undoubtedly stay because they want to, but a huge amount of the ones we are left with will be those who are here not because they want to be but because cannot get a job anywhere else. Until conditions for teachers here begin to improve, rather than maintain a permanent downward spiral, the brain drain will continue.

ntlbell

dambarude wrote: »

I don't know how many a secondary teacher gets, I'm not a secondary teacher. Neither am I a primary teacher (yet, give it a few weeks).

So you have no frame of reference here.

Can we agree they have at least 4 months?

Powerhouse

ntlbell wrote: »

I'm sure it has it's challenge's so does laying bricks, But I don't really want to have my brain tumor removed by a brick layer do you?

Nor a wall built by a brain surgeon presumably?

Toto Wolfcastle

ntlbell infracted for trolling. Please do not respond to this thread again unless you can debate constructively.

Everyone else, back on topic please. The topic of this thread is not the length of holidays that teachers get.

ntlbell

number10a wrote: »

Combined with attitudes like this where teaching is looked down on as a profession, and the severe cuts in wages, I am on the first plane out of here in August once I secure a job for myself. Due to qualify in May and I should hear back about one interview this week.

severe?

Do you know an EU country that pays their teachers more? no? thought so.

number10a wrote: »

I'm not choosing teaching as a scraping of the barrel option, or for the holidays. I want to be a teacher. I love being a teacher. I have an unbelievable passion for the job. I have never disliked a minute I spent working in any school. Not wanting to blow my own trumpet, but I reckon with my passion/enthusiasm combined with my knowledge I will make a good teacher as will *many* others like me. But, I'm not sticking around here to get irregular subbing hours/a temporary contract and constant wage cuts combined with new taxes. My classmates are of the same persuasion too.

As soon as you find a country that pays their teachers more than we do.
I'll sign up for H.dip myself.

number10a wrote: »

Teachers who love their job and want to enjoy it and the financial benefits they get from it are leaving and will continue to leave and many will probably never come back. A huge amount of the good ones will undoubtedly stay because they want to, but a huge amount of the ones we are left with will be those who are here not because they want to be but because cannot get a job anywhere else. Until conditions for teachers here begin to improve, rather than maintain a permanent downward spiral, the brain drain will continue.

I don't think I've ever met a teacher that loved their job in my whole life.
and if been in a country with the most highly paid teachers in the EU i'm not sure where they're going to go or do?

aN.Droid

Powerhouse wrote: »

So you don't have an opinion of your own then?

I have an opinion, but do I have one that would not be blasted on this forum? No, I do not. I simply entered in a quote from one of Ireland's most famous playwrights of the last century instead as I felt it had a place and it plays into my own opinion aswell.

number10a

ntlbell wrote: »

severe?

Do you know an EU country that pays their teachers more? no? thought so.

There are plenty of English language private schools all over Europe that will pay a newly qualified teacher like me the same or more than the Irish wage. And before you go spouting that they're private schools, you can hardly expect me to go teach in a public school without the language. Regardless of public/private, that shouldn't matter. The thing that I'm talking about is that the prospect of better positions abroad is resulting in a brain drain of the teaching profession here.

ntlbell wrote: »

As soon as you find a country that pays their teachers more than we do.
I'll sign up for H.dip myself.

Like I said, there are plenty of places you can go. There's a private school in Estonia that I applied to that pays €2,400 a month to start with in a country where the average wage is €400 a month. There are many more opportunities like this right across the continent.

ntlbell wrote: »

I don't think I've ever met a teacher that loved their job in my whole life.
and if been in a country with the most highly paid teachers in the EU i'm not sure where they're going to go or do?

Well then, they shouldn't be teaching.

Powerhouse

Limericks wrote: »

I have an opinion, but do I have one that would not be blasted on this forum? No, I do not.

You wrote earlier (unless of course you were actually quoting Oscar Wilde or something and neglected to source it) "I have nothing but respect for those that teach our young as without them we would be nowhere".

If this were true, it is hard to see how you could not have even one opinion that would not be blasted here. Your opinions are as muddled as your apostrophes.

ntlbell

number10a wrote: »

There are plenty of English language private schools all over Europe that will pay a newly qualified teacher like me the same or more than the Irish wage. And before you go spouting that they're private schools, you can hardly expect me to go teach in a public school without the language. Regardless of public/private, that shouldn't matter. The thing that I'm talking about is that the prospect of better positions abroad is resulting in a brain drain of the teaching profession here.

Is there evidence to suggest private schools in the eu our draining the resources of our future teachers here?

do you have numbers for the amount of grads that have left and gone to work in these private schools? what's the average salary in these schools and what has it got to do with ireland where the majority of our schools are public?

number10a wrote: »

Like I said, there are plenty of places you can go. There's a private school in Estonia that I applied to that pays €2,400 a month to start with in a country where the average wage is €400 a month. There are many more opportunities like this right across the continent.

So a private school in estonia is threatening the education of our future children even tho it's paying aprox 50% less than the average teachers salary here?

number10a wrote: »

Well then, they shouldn't be teaching.

You're right, but how do we filter out the people who are just teaching because of the wages and other "benifits" ?

Powerhouse

ntlbell wrote: »

As soon as you find a country that pays their teachers more than we do.
I'll sign up for H.dip myself.

Germany was higher a few years ago and given the reduction in pay in Ireland is probably significantly higher now.

Enjoy the "H Dip" - I'm sure they'll love your positivity is the staff-room!

ntlbell

Powerhouse wrote: »

Germany was higher a few years ago and given the reduction in pay in Ireland is probably significantly higher now.

Enjoy the "H Dip" - I'm sure they'll love your positivity is the staff-room!

You don't know much about the tax system in Germany then.

Do you have a link to the salary and the difference between take home in germany and ireland of the same years you refer to?

number10a

There's no point in arguing with you. Your reply has either nothing to do with what I've written (I never mentioned the UK ) or is taking things out of context (that one school in Estonia was an example of many schools across Europe, not the sole threat to the Irish education system). Nothing I, or anyone here, can say will change your opinion of the teaching profession as a cushy number.

Powerhouse

ntlbell wrote: »

So a private school in estonia is threatening the education of our future children even tho it's paying aprox 50% less than the average teachers salary here?

This is a phenonenally obtuse reply in all fairness. The other poster wrote "there's a private school in Estonia that I applied to that pays €2,400 a month to start with in a country where the average wage is €400 a month".

This skirts around the issue that dare not speak its name - the question of comparatives. You'll ask us to name a country that pays teachers more but you'll not name a country in the EU where teachers are paying higher mortgages, or more for petrol etc.

ntlbell

number10a wrote: »

There's no point in arguing with you. Your reply has either nothing to do with what I've written (I never mentioned the UK ) or is taking things out of context (that one school in Estonia was an example of many schools across Europe, not the sole threat to the Irish education system). Nothing I, or anyone here, can say will change your opinion of the teaching profession as a cushy number.

sorry the uk was a typo which i fixed.

It been a cushy number or not is irrevant here, i'm just asking for something more concrete than a school in estonia is paying good wages to prove the drain on resources here?

Powerhouse

ntlbell wrote: »

You don't know much about the tax system in Germany then.

Do you have a link to the salary and the difference between take home in germany and ireland of the same years you refer to?

Who mentioned the tax system? You asked a simple question and I answered it - end of. Sorry if the reply wasn't to your satisfaction.

aN.Droid

Powerhouse wrote: »

You wrote earlier (unless of course you were actually quoting Oscar Wilde or something and neglected to source it) "I have nothing but respect for those that teach our young as without them we would be nowhere".

If this were true, it is hard to see how you could not have even one opinion that would not be blasted here. Your opinions are as muddled as your apostrophes.

Apologies about my apostrophes. Written English is not my strong suit.

If you want my opinion you can have it. I believe that teachers play a very important point to a child's development. Without them we would be nowhere. This is not a quote it is what I believe.

But I also believe that top students should be doing other things like working on theoretical sides of life such as physics and also doing practical work such as engineering.

It's hard to explain but what I in my opinion think is that if you have more promise then just learning a curriculum and then teaching that to a student you should be doing something else unless you of course have a real passion for it which I assume most teachers would.

I mean no insult when I say just learning a curriculum and I know it is more than that but not much more in the knowledge side.

number10a

ntlbell wrote: »

sorry the uk was a typo which i fixed.

It been a cushy number or not is irrevant here, i'm just asking for something more concrete than a school in estonia is paying good wages to prove the drain on resources here?

I don't have a link to statistics. This is not North Korea. We don't have border guards in our airports asking everyone for their reason for leaving. I am going by what I know from personal experience. Being a trainee teacher, I know a lot of people within the teaching profession. A huge amount of them are abroad.

It's not the wages that are drawing people abroad, it's the security. It's the smaller classes and the well resourced schools. You can go abroad and get a permanent job fairly easily. Here, you'd have to sacrifice your first born to get within a mile of one. At the moment, with the moratorium, it's all subbing/ maternity leave/ temporary contracts. We may have high wages for teachers in this country (and an equally high cost of living), but that's about the only advantage compared to working in another country.

Bullseye1

Teachers and health care professionals by their very nature are guided towards the public sector. Maybe if there were more privately run schools and hospitals available to provide employment. They are also not the only graduates who will not have work to come out to. Architects and Engineers only choice is the emigrate.

Powerhouse

Limericks wrote: »

Apologies about my apostrophes. Written English is not my strong suite.

If you want my opinion you can have it. I believe that teachers play a very important point to a child's development. Without them we would be nowhere. This is not a quote it is what I believe.

But I also believe that top students should be doing other things like working on theoretical sides of life such as physics and also doing practical work such as engineering.

It's hard to explain but what I in my opinion think is that if you have more promise then just learning a curriculum and then teaching that to a student you should be doing something else unless you of course have a real passion for it which I assume most teachers would.

I mean no insult when I say just learning a curriculum and I know it is more than that but not much more in the knowledge side.

Reading through this I can understand the attraction to you of a few bons mots from Shaw et al.

Suffice to say that is much more to teaching that you appear to imagine. Being a page ahead of the class will not take you far as a strategy. That's why teachers do all that studying.

byhookorbycrook

The "teachers here are better paid here than anywhere else in the EU" line is trotted out regularly. EVERYONE in Ireland is paid more than most of their European counterparts, why do you think so many flocked to work here when things were good?

mikemac1

Getting back to the OP, it's not the pay, it's the uncertainty and lack of opportunities

Who wants to spend years in temporary employment scrapping for hours?
Anyway if we're training teachers with no jobs it's no bad thing if applicants are down 11pc.
Some will always apply and it's what they want to do but for others they'll go look at something else

This happened lots of degree courses before, IT applicants constantly go up and down and the ministers and talking heads are in the media about the need for applicants and four years later there are no jobs, boom and bust.
Nobody knows where we'll be in four years, prediction is a difficult business

I'm sure you'd see the same for construction studies and architecture right now

Anyway, the title shows pay, I don't think it's pay that is the main factor

How did most of page two get sidetracked into holidays

aN.Droid

Powerhouse wrote: »

Reading through this I can understand the attraction to you of a few bons mots from Shaw et al.

Suffice to say that is much more to teaching that you appear to imagine. Being a page ahead of the class will not take you far as a strategy. That's why teachers do all that studying.

Ok then. I have given my opinion and that's that from my end. Enjoy the thread.

ntlbell

number10a wrote: »

This is a phenonenally obtuse reply in all fairness. The other poster wrote "there's a private school in Estonia that I applied to that pays €2,400 a month to start with in a country where the average wage is €400 a month".m s

I still not convinced.

So you're saying someone who is teaching for the love of teaching, will move to a country where they probably wont know anyone, won't have the language etc etc for money? this is not making much sense.

number10a wrote: »

This skirts around the issue that dare not speak its name - the question of comparatives. You'll ask us to name a country that pays teachers more but you'll not name a country in the EU where teachers are paying higher mortgages, or more for petrol etc.

Well maybe teachers in Italy, France, Spain etc rent? I wasn't aware of any regulation to purchase a home? Petrol is pretty expsensive everywhere atm

ntlbell

number10a wrote: »

I don't have a link to statistics. This is not North Korea. We don't have border guards in our airports asking everyone for their reason for leaving. I am going by what I know from personal experience. Being a trainee teacher, I know a lot of people within the teaching profession. A huge amount of them are abroad.

Right so state your argument is based on hear say and your personal expirience. so we have no idea of any brain drain on the countries resources by these countries offering all this money we have no proof of. right?

number10a wrote: »

It's not the wages that are drawing people abroad, it's the security. It's the smaller classes and the well resourced schools. You can go abroad and get a permanent job fairly easily. Here, you'd have to sacrifice your first born to get within a mile of one. At the moment, with the moratorium, it's all subbing/ maternity leave/ temporary contracts. We may have high wages for teachers in this country (and an equally high cost of living), but that's about the only advantage compared to working in another country.

Surley at any time in a countries history were recession hits it draws people from all walks of life to other countries? teaching isn't unique in this i'm sure. But it seems there's always someone queueing up behind to take their place, I dont think we've ever ran out of them

ntlbell

Powerhouse wrote: »

Who mentioned the tax system? You asked a simple question and I answered it - end of. Sorry if the reply wasn't to your satisfaction.

No problem.

So can you show us a link showing german teachers average salary compared to irish for the years you refer to?

dambarude

dambarude wrote: »

Pardon me, I had forgotten that teachers have it very easy. No challenge there at all. Do you honestly think that the job isn't challenging?

I can only speak for primary teaching courses, but anybody who has come out the other side of a B.Ed or PGDEPT will tell you that they are one some of the most stressful and time consuming courses you could do.

It obviously has challenges but someone who is a top student will probably be more attracted to something that challenge/stimulate them more intellectually than teaching will.

You talk about how hard the course is, some people need to be challenged in this way throughout their whole career for their personal fulfillment, not for 4 years.

I would imagine, engineering, law, accounting, actuary, medicine, finance etc would be a far higher draw than teaching would be for someone who is a "top student" and if they are drawn to teach it would be more likely to be at 3rd level.

I'm just out of college, I don't know any secondary school teachers as friends but I know a few primary school ones and while they are intelligent and got decent marks it is quite clear from talking to them the allure of a public sector job with decent pay was their main reason for choosing their career path rather than it being a vocation.

Xenophile

This article in the Irish Independent is not credible, as it does not comparisons with other professions. The journalist has swallowed the propaganda hook line and sinker. This is typical of lazy journalism on public holiday weekends.

yosser hughes

Just getting back to the topic in hand. We are talking about pay cuts right? Do teachers think they should be immune from pay cuts? Immune from job losses? The fact is, the CPA is an exercise in the older members pulling the ladder up after them and to hell with those coming after. Most people I know that went for a career in teaching or the guards for that matter did so because it was seen as a safe pensionable job with lots of time off.
I'm not saying it's easy but the time off is a major compensation.
I really do think teachers are completely out of touch. I'm sure some teachers are very passionate about what they do but you know as well as I do that there are a lot of time servers as well.

listermint

yosser hughes wrote: »

Just getting back to the topic in hand. We are talking about pay cuts right? Do teachers think they should be immune from pay cuts? Immune from job losses? The fact is, the CPA is an exercise in the older members pulling the ladder up after them and to hell with those coming after. Most people I know that went for a career in teaching or the guards for that matter did so because it was seen as a safe pensionable job with lots of time off.
I'm not saying it's easy but the time off is a major compensation.
I really do think teachers are completely out of touch. I'm sure some teachers are very passionate about what they do but you know as well as I do that there are a lot of time servers as well.

My thoughts exactly. which is why im confused that the topic of holidays was not retained in this discussion. Afterall when you take a job its entitlements etc are part of the entire package. Ridiculing a poster for bringing up the topic of holidays in conjunction with teachers pay and entitlements smacks of blackening out a major part of the discussion. Its an obvious benefit which draws people to the profession.

Powerhouse

listermint wrote: »

Ridiculing a poster for bringing up the topic of holidays in conjunction with teachers pay and entitlements smacks of blackening out a major part of the discussion.

Nonsense. The thread is, or at least was, about pay and paycuts. The day a teacher can walk into a petrol station or a bank manager and do business with them on the basis of the length of their holidays then it'll be relevant to a discussion on pay. But not until then. In the meantime citing the length of holidays will comes across as nothing more 'economic' than begrudgery.

byhookorbycrook

Teachers have already taken pay cuts, so no, we are not immune.