Pay cuts threat to profession

yosser hughes

Powerhouse wrote: »

Nonsense. The thread is, or at least was, about pay and paycuts. The day a teacher can walk into a petrol station or a bank manager and do business with them on the basis of the length of their holidays then it'll be relevant to a discussion on pay. But not until then. In the meantime citing the length of holidays will comes across as nothing more 'economic' than begrudgery.

Yeah that's it alright!:rolleyes: That term gets trotted out so often it's beyond a joke.
The topic is about the devaluation of the "profession" not just pay.

Powerhouse

yosser hughes wrote: »

1) We are talking about pay cuts right?

2) Do teachers think they should be immune from pay cuts?

3) Immune from job losses?

4) Most people I know that went for a career in teaching or the guards for that matter did so because it was seen as a safe pensionable job with lots of time off.

1) Supposedly, though some people insist on sidetracking about holidays.

2) No and yes. 'No', on the basis that pay has been cut by near enough to 20 per cent in recent years so it's clearly a runner - teachers are aware of that. But 'yes', on the basis of the Croke Park agreement. That you don't like it is irrelevant. Some teachers actually expect the government to honour its agreement or else do the decent thing and declare it null and void and see where the chips fall.

3) This is an utterly baffling question. Are you not aware of the job losses in teaching in recent years? Where do you get words like 'immune' in that context?

4) This is irrelevant hearsay. Obviously you would say that given the argument you are trying to make. I could tell you that everyone I know is utterly driven and motivated, and none of it would get us much further along.

dambarude

yosser hughes wrote: »

Just getting back to the topic in hand. We are talking about pay cuts right? Do teachers think they should be immune from pay cuts? Immune from job losses? The fact is, the CPA is an exercise in the older members pulling the ladder up after them and to hell with those coming after. Most people I know that went for a career in teaching or the guards for that matter did so because it was seen as a safe pensionable job with lots of time off.
I'm not saying it's easy but the time off is a major compensation.
I really do think teachers are completely out of touch. I'm sure some teachers are very passionate about what they do but you know as well as I do that there are a lot of time servers as well.

The article was referring specifically to additional paycuts which have been made in the last two months. New teachers will enter on a salary which has been cut by the general public sector pension levy, pay cut, the 10% general pay cut for new entrants, and a removal of all allowances (supervision, degree etc.). This amounts to close to a 30% cut in pay compared to equivalent new entrants in 2008.

Powerhouse

yosser hughes wrote: »

Yeah that's it alright!:rolleyes: That term gets trotted out so often it's beyond a joke.
The topic is about the devaluation of the "profession" not just pay.

So when you wrote "Just getting back to the topic in hand. We are talking about pay cuts right?" in your last post, you didn't really mean that it we are talking about paycuts?

It's handy to be able to make it up as you go along isn't it?

People whinging about teachers' holidays is begrudgery. And the term is trotted out often because it is often appropriate.

solerina

ntlbell wrote: »

So a private school in estonia is threatening the education of our future children even tho it's paying aprox 50% less than the average teachers salary here?

Check your facts because you obviously havnt a clue, I wish 2,400 was 50% (or even 70% or 80%)of my salary....not that its any of your business but a teacher here would snap your hand off to start on 2,400 a month !!!

Powerhouse

ntlbell wrote: »

No problem.

So can you show us a link showing german teachers average salary compared to irish for the years you refer to?

No, I wouldn't dream of it. If you're going to imply that I'm a liar then at least you can source the information yourself. It took me less than three minutes using google.

byhookorbycrook

If we are to compare Irish teacher pay to other countries, then,in the interest of fairness, we need to compare other professions to their European counterparts too.
As you see here the average wage in Ireland is well ahead of most other countries:
http://www.averagesalarysurvey.com/article/average-salary-in-eu/26025059.aspx

number10a

dambarude wrote: »

The article was referring specifically to additional paycuts which have been made in the last two months. New teachers will enter on a salary which has been cut by the general public sector pension levy, pay cut, the 10% general pay cut for new entrants, and a removal of all allowances (supervision, degree etc.). This amounts to close to a 30% cut in pay compared to equivalent new entrants in 2008.

The paycuts for new entrants was bad enough. I got over that. But, it was the removal of allowances that did it for me. This was announced one morning in February with no warning whatsoever. And all at the stroke of Ruairí Quinn's biro, the starting salary I calculated for myself at the start of teacher training in 2010 was cut by 30%, or €13,000 per annum gone from my salary overnight! Even if it was never going to be increased over the span of my 40 year teaching career, that's half a million euro gone out of my pocket. It was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. Wages were the only advantage of teaching in Ireland. Not anymore.

dambarude

number10a wrote: »

The paycuts for new entrants was bad enough. I got over that. But, it was the removal of allowances that did it for me. This was announced one morning in February with no warning whatsoever. And all at the stroke of Ruairí Quinn's biro, the starting salary I calculated for myself at the start of teacher training in 2010 was cut by 30%, or €13,000 per annum gone from my salary overnight! Even if it was never going to be increased over the span of my 40 year teaching career, that's half a million euro gone out of my pocket. It was the straw that broke the camel's back for me. Wages were the only advantage of teaching in Ireland. Not anymore.

I know the feeling.

Juniorhurler

Amirah Crooked Paperweight wrote: »

It obviously has challenges but someone who is a top student will probably be more attracted to something that challenge/stimulate them more intellectually than teaching will.

You talk about how hard the course is, some people need to be challenged in this way throughout their whole career for their personal fulfillment, not for 4 years.

I would imagine, engineering, law, accounting, actuary, medicine, finance etc would be a far higher draw than teaching would be for someone who is a "top student" and if they are drawn to teach it would be more likely to be at 3rd level.

I'm just out of college, I don't know any secondary school teachers as friends but I know a few primary school ones and while they are intelligent and got decent marks it is quite clear from talking to them the allure of a public sector job with decent pay was their main reason for choosing their career path rather than it being a vocation.

The two that I have highlighted are not necessarily challenging. Repeatedly conveyencing properties and repeatedly doing books for similar clients as an accountant. Not saying this is the case for all solicitors or accountants but it is for a lot of them.

ntlbell

solerina wrote: »

Check your facts because you obviously havnt a clue, I wish 2,400 was 50% (or even 70% or 80%)of my salary....not that its any of your business but a teacher here would snap your hand off to start on 2,400 a month !!!

Since when does starting salary = average salary?

number10a

ntlbell wrote: »

Since when does starting salary = average salary?

But the €2,400 that I quoted to you was the starting salary at that school in Estonia. So like is being compared with like in this case.

ntlbell

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

If we are to compare Irish teacher pay to other countries, then,in the interest of fairness, we need to compare other professions to their European counterparts too.
As you see here the average wage in Ireland is well ahead of most other countries:
http://www.averagesalarysurvey.com/article/average-salary-in-eu/26025059.aspx

Why when the article is about teachers, why are other profesions relevant?

surley if the actuall amount of teaching hours is not relvant to this discussion then the wages of other profesionans is as equally as irrelvant?

Lets try and keep some consitency in the debate

gaeilgebeo

I read the said article today and wanted to make a contribution to the so called "discussion".
Yet again, it is the same old driveling drum beating out the same old drivel about teachers pay and holidays. :rolleyes:
I would really hate to go round in life with such a huge chip on my shoulder! Hope you are all enjoying the Easter break.

ntlbell

number10a wrote: »

But the €2,400 that I quoted to you was the starting salary at that school in Estonia. So like is being compared with like in this case.

Again, why would someone go to estonia, learn a new language and blah blah for money, if there love was for teaching? leaving familiy friends etc.

On one hand we're saying teachers love the job and don't do it for moneya nd on the other we're saying they would uproot from the country they were born in leave familiy and friends behind for money??

again no consitency in the story here.

and if you want to cimpare like with like

estonia public school starting salary

and ireland?

ntlbell

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

I read the said article today and wanted to make an contribution to the so called "discussion".
Yet again it is the same old driveling drum beating out the same old drivel about teachers pay and holidays. :rolleyes:
I would really hate to go round in life with such a huge chip on my shoulder! Hope you are all enjoying the Easter break.

so you complain about the discussion and deicde to add nothing but try and berate the posters in said discussion?

Juniorhurler

Look, the attention being given to spurious posters on this forum has stopped me getting involved up until now. I can look on no more.

I honestly believe that a lot of people who rock up here to ridicule the teaching profession are projecting their grievances with certain teachers from their own schooldays onto the profession as a whole. Its a pity that they wouldn't think of all the really good teachers they encountered in their teens.

Now, I am off again.

ntlbell

Juniorhurler wrote: »

Look, the attention being given to spurious posters on this forum has stopped me getting involved up until now. I can look on no more.

I honestly believe that a lot of people who rock up here to ridicule the teaching profession are projecting their grievances with certain teachers from their own schooldays onto the profession as a whole. Its a pity that they wouldn't think of all the really good teachers they encountered in their teens.

Now, I am off again.

Surley if teachers pay was set accordingly bad expiriences with childhood teachers or not. people would have no reason to "rock up here" ?

I'm sure people have plenty of bad expiriences as a child with dentists but there's not many people complaining about there pay packets.

Juniorhurler

ntlbell wrote: »

Surley if teachers pay was set accordingly bad expiriences with childhood teachers or not. people would have no reason to "rock up here" ?

I'm sure people have plenty of bad expiriences as a child with dentists but there's not many people complaining about there pay packets.

I'm sure they are when they're shelling out for them me auld flower. Look at the dental tourism that is going on to eastern europe at the moment and across the border to the north. People aren't complaining they are voting with their feet.

ntlbell

Juniorhurler wrote: »

I'm sure they are when they're shelling out for them me auld flower. Look at the dental tourism that is going on to eastern europe at the moment and across the border to the north. People aren't complaining they are voting with their feet.

#compition it's a wonderful thing.

with teachers tho we have to pay for them good or bad out of the public purse. Thankfully we can shop around for a good dentist at the right price.

number10a

ntlbell wrote: »

Again, why would someone go to estonia, learn a new language and blah blah for money, if there love was for teaching? leaving familiy friends etc.

On one hand we're saying teachers love the job and don't do it for moneya nd on the other we're saying they would uproot from the country they were born in leave familiy and friends behind for money??

again no consitency in the story here.

and if you want to cimpare like with like

estonia public school starting salary

and ireland?

I would go to Estonia because it's an amazing country that I could see myself being quite happy in. I happen to love learning languages so I would enjoy that experience. I already speak four and am on number five. I also love travel. Put travel, languages and teaching together and I'd be like a pig in shìte, so moving to Estonia, or anywhere else in Europe, would be right up my street. I was looking for a job there before I found out the salary, so the money was not the incentive for me to move there. The great salary would have been a bonus had I gotten the job there.

Uproot from the country I was born in? That's just it. I was only born here. Nothing else. That's no reason to spend my life here. At this stage I feel very little attachment to Ireland. At the moment, it's just a bastion of negativity everywhere you look. Many before me have left, and many after me will leave. I'm leaving to get a better quality of life for myself, not for better wages. I'm looking at moving to Poland too (where average teacher wages are €800 to €1,000) simply because the quality of life is better there than it is here. Some people follow good wages, some follow quality of life. I go with the latter, but certainly would not shun the wages if the two came hand in hand.

I told you before, I am not comparing public school wages in Ireland with public school wages in Estonia because to do so makes no sense. No Irish teacher can up sticks and leave to teach in a public school in Estonia without the Estonian language. They can up sticks and leave to teach in an English language school like the one I mentioned. That's what this thread is about, the lowering of wages here may well result in young teachers leaving to teach elsewhere. Private school or public school, it doesn't matter, they all are possiblities for any teacher who wants to leave.

mathepac

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

...
Demand for teaching courses in the CAO is down 11pc since 2008, sparking concern that it will translate into lower calibre students entering the profession. ...

Did nobody explain to the Indo and teachers that teaching is not a profession, or is that teachers are relying on mis-information from the Indo to convince readers (mainly teachers?) that teaching is a profession?

Juniorhurler

ntlbell wrote: »

#compition it's a wonderful thing.

with teachers tho we have to pay for them good or bad out of the public purse. Thankfully we can shop around for a good dentist at the right price.

You can go to another country to utilise their lower paid teachers if you feel so strongly about it. Don't let me stop you.

ntlbell

number10a wrote: »

I would go to Estonia because it's an amazing country that I could see myself being quite happy in. I happen to love learning languages so I would enjoy that experience. I already speak four and am on number five. I also love travel. Put travel, languages and teaching together and I'd be like a pig in shìte, so moving to Estonia, or anywhere else in Europe, would be right up my street. I was looking for a job there before I found out the salary, so the money was not the incentive for me to move there. The great salary would have been a bonus had I gotten the job there.

I'm sure you will be an amazing teacher, but and I mean no offence. You going there is hardly proof of a brain drain now is it?

number10a wrote: »

Uproot from the country I was born in? That's just it. I was only born here. Nothing else. That's no reason to spend my life here. At this stage I feel very little attachment to Ireland. At the moment, it's just a bastion of negativity everywhere you look. Many before me have left, and many after me will leave. I'm leaving to get a better quality of life for myself, not for better wages. I'm looking at moving to Poland too (where average teacher wages are €800 to €1,000) simply because the quality of life is better there than it is here. Some people follow good wages, some follow quality of life. I go with the latter, but certainly would not shun the wages if the two came hand in hand.

I'm not sure what all this has to do with anything? surley all these factors are at play regardless of the profesion?

number10a wrote: »

I told you before, I am not comparing public school wages in Ireland with public school wages in Estonia because to do so makes no sense. No Irish teacher can up sticks and leave to teach in a public school in Estonia without the Estonian language. They can up sticks and leave to teach in an English language school like the one I mentioned. That's what this thread is about, the lowering of wages here may well result in young teachers leaving to teach elsewhere. Private school or public school, it doesn't matter, they all are possiblities for any teacher who wants to leave.

But we have no evidence that this is happening? There are possibilities in all profesions all over the world I could go to dubai tomorrow and get paid 3/4 times what I do here have a much higher standard of living and I'm a highly paid profesional. This has always been the case.

Teachers like everyone else are human beings a lot of them like any other profesian get into it for the money and the "benifits" there'll always be an element who do it for "love"

We don't need top talent going into teaching we need them in much more challening jobs. Currently irish teachers are the most overpaid teachers on average in the OECD. Their employers are currently bankrupt and can no longer pay them these vastly inflated wages anymore. things have to change. that will send some of the people who go into it for the money to go elsewhere. this is the times we live in. it's not a problem.

ntlbell

Juniorhurler wrote: »

You can go to another country to utilise their lower paid teachers if you feel so strongly about it. Don't let me stop you.

this is exactly the point. not everyone can just up sticks leave jobs and start dragging their familiy around the world or their lives around.

hence why this magical brain drain with everyone going to estonia is not going to be an issue.

Powerhouse

mathepac wrote: »

Did nobody explain to the Indo and teachers that teaching is not a profession, or is that teachers are relying on mis-information from the Indo to convince readers (mainly teachers?) that teaching is a profession?

This is another irrelevant interjection in pursuance, presumably, of some kind of semantic grievance. Profession, trade, job...who cares?

You really should take the issue up with the journalist in question.

Interesting claim that the Independent readers are mainly teachers. Why do you people get these bonkers ideas from? :rolleyes:

Jogathon

Limericks wrote: »

Powerhouse wrote: »

You wrote earlier (unless of course you were actually quoting Oscar Wilde or something and neglected to source it) "I have nothing but respect for those that teach our young as without them we would be nowhere".

If this were true, it is hard to see how you could not have even one opinion that would not be blasted here. Your opinions are as muddled as your apostrophes.

Apologies about my apostrophes. Written English is not my strong suit.

If you want my opinion you can have it. I believe that teachers play a very important point to a child's development. Without them we would be nowhere. This is not a quote it is what I believe.

But I also believe that top students should be doing other things like working on theoretical sides of life such as physics and also doing practical work such as engineering.

It's hard to explain but what I in my opinion think is that if you have more promise then just learning a curriculum and then teaching that to a student you should be doing something else unless you of course have a real passion for it which I assume most teachers would.

I mean no insult when I say just learning a curriculum and I know it is more than that but not much more in the knowledge side.

I disagree. I trained as a teacher in England and I found that my knowledge was far superior to most(not all!!) of the teachers inthe schools there. Basically, average intelligent people, unable to do 5th/6th class standard maths, teaching the future. So wrong. We need the top ten% teaching and we need the wages to be good enough to get them.

Dave0301

ntlbell wrote: »

We don't need top talent going into teaching we need them in much more challening jobs. Currently irish teachers are the most overpaid teachers on average in the OECD. Their employers are currently bankrupt and can no longer pay them these vastly inflated wages anymore. things have to change. that will send some of the people who go into it for the money to go elsewhere. this is the times we live in. it's not a problem.

You have made reference to the fact Irish teachers are the highest paid in Europe quite a bit now, would it not also be a good thing to give that some perspective?

The cost of Living in Ireland is also one of the highest in Europe, also Ireland has one of the highest minimum wages in Europe (See Here) So would it not be fair to say that in relation to most European countries Irish workers are overpaid and not just teachers?

byhookorbycrook

ntlbell wrote: »

Why when the article is about teachers, why are other profesions relevant?

surley if the actual amount of teaching hours is not relvant to this discussion then the wages of other profesionans is as equally as irrelvant?

Lets try and keep some consitency in the debate

Because you are telling us that Irish teachers are amongst the best paid in Europe, yet seem to wish to ignore the higher wages across the boards for other jobs. I have said twice now that you cannot make this claim in isolation from the higher wages in Ireland in general,but this message does not seem to be to your taste or perhaps you blame some teacher for your lack of skill in interpreting informational text?

As an aside, I got points sufficient to see me into some of apparently more challenging jobs, but chose teaching.

Oh-and it's only debate if both parties can make meaningful points.

lestat21

ntlbell wrote: »

Again, why would someone go to estonia, learn a new language and blah blah for money, if there love was for teaching? leaving familiy friends etc.

On one hand we're saying teachers love the job and don't do it for moneya nd on the other we're saying they would uproot from the country they were born in leave familiy and friends behind for money??

I have been reading this thread but unwilling to post because its the same old argument that I'm actually getting tired of.... BUT ntbell I am actually disgusted by your comments. I love my friends and family but I was unemployed for 10 months until I got work last month. I had no subbing work and I was overqualified for bar and waitressing jobs.

I was planning to leave this country and I would have been happy to leave it behind because I am someone who loves to work. Sure I'm a teacher but that doesnt mean I have loads of money in the bank and time off is a ****ing holiday!! In case you haven't noticed were in the middle of a recession there are very few jobs anywhere and people are leaving the country as a result. I dont care what profession youre in, you cant live off the dole for the rest of your life and immigration is a very tempting option.

Are you a teacher yourself ntbell? I only ask because you seem very opinionated on this issue but you dont seem to realise the realities of teaching. The colleges are popping out a few thousand graduates each year but there is already a huge shortage of work for teachers in the professions. When you do find work its short term temporary and there is no job security. This is why even people who would love to teach are turning away from the profession or leaving the country!

mathepac

Powerhouse wrote: »

This is another irrelevant interjection in pursuance, presumably, of some kind of semantic grievance. Profession, trade, job...who cares? ...

It is fairly evident that the OP cares as s/he repeated the error in the Indo by posting the non-existant "profession" thing in the thread title and thanked you for raising the point. Maybe you do too as pointing out the repeated error in the paper and the thread title seems to have you rather irate.

Powerhouse wrote: »

... You really should take the issue up with the journalist in question. ...

I did but I suspect they can't read at the Indo as not one of the last few emails I sent them pointing out matters of fact they had got wrong in their publication has been responded to. It seems they'll print any old crap, apart from which the same error was made in the thread title as I said already.

Powerhouse wrote: »

... Interesting claim that the Independent readers are mainly teachers. Why do you people get these bonkers ideas from? :rolleyes:

From teachers who tell me that The Indo is delivered free to the staff-room at their schools, as well as to places like Mother Hubbards, etc. Should I walk in after the Easter break and demand an apology for mis-informing me?

ntlbell

Dave0301 wrote: »

You have made reference to the fact Irish teachers are the highest paid in Europe quite a bit now, would it not also be a good thing to give that some perspective?

The cost of Living in Ireland is also one of the highest in Europe, also Ireland has one of the highest minimum wages in Europe (See Here) So would it not be fair to say that in relation to most European countries Irish workers are overpaid and not just teachers?

If in other profesionas if they worked similar hours it might be yes

Also, there's a difference in working for a private company were pay is generally based on profit and working for a bankrupt country on the public dime. no?

ntlbell

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Because you are telling us that Irish teachers are amongst the best paid in Europe, yet seem to wish to ignore the higher wages across the boards for other jobs. I have said twice now that you cannot make this claim in isolation from the higher wages in Ireland in general

As I'm discussing teachers in ireland and their eu counterparts as per the OP you know. staying on topic as was requested.

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

,but this message does not seem to be to your taste or perhaps you blame some teacher for your lack of skill in interpreting informational text?

it might be an idea to keep your personal opinions about my education or lack of it to yourself to avoid any personal insults. just saying.

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

As an aside, I got points sufficient to see me into some of apparently more challenging jobs, but chose teaching.

Oh-and it's only debate if both parties can make meaningful points.

There's a party making a point and what would seem like wounded animals letting their emotions get in the way of rational thoought.

But we'll continue.

ntlbell

lestat21 wrote: »

I have been reading this thread but unwilling to post because its the same old argument that I'm actually getting tired of.... BUT ntbell I am actually disgusted by your comments. I love my friends and family but I was unemployed for 10 months until I got work last month. I had no subbing work and I was overqualified for bar and waitressing jobs.

I'm not sure what you're disgusted about? maybe if you approach specfic points?

lestat21 wrote: »

I was planning to leave this country and I would have been happy to leave it behind because I am someone who loves to work. Sure I'm a teacher but that doesnt mean I have loads of money in the bank and time off is a ****ing holiday!! In case you haven't noticed were in the middle of a recession there are very few jobs anywhere and people are leaving the country as a result. I dont care what profession youre in, you cant live off the dole for the rest of your life and immigration is a very tempting option.

So your point is. in a recession work is hard to find? no one would argue with you, but it's not specific to teaching. It's also natural in these harder times that wages will fall no suprises right?

lestat21 wrote: »

Are you a teacher yourself ntbell? I only ask because you seem very opinionated on this issue but you dont seem to realise the realities of teaching. The colleges are popping out a few thousand graduates each year but there is already a huge shortage of work for teachers in the professions. When you do find work its short term temporary and there is no job security. This is why even people who would love to teach are turning away from the profession or leaving the country!

I'm not a teacher I didn't realise I had to be one to have an opinion on the subject? Again your above post goes for most profesions at the moment that's the reality of the situation. I don't see how not cutting teachers wages will affect the above tho?

Powerhouse

mathepac wrote: »

1) It is fairly evident that the OP cares as s/he repeated the error in the Indo by posting the non-existant "profession" thing in the thread title and thanked you for raising the point. Maybe you do too as pointing out the repeated error in the paper and the thread title seems to have you rather irate.

2) I did but I suspect they can't read at the Indo as not one of the last few emails I sent them pointing out matters of fact they had got wrong in their publication has been responded to. It seems they'll print any old crap, apart from which the same error was made in the thread title as I said already.

3) From teachers who tell me that The Indo is delivered free to the staff-room at their schools, as well as to places like Mother Hubbards, etc. Should I walk in after the Easter break and demand an apology for mis-informing me?

1) The "profession thing" is not "non-existent" - the journalist used the term. That it - for some undeclared reason - grates with you does not mean it was inappropriately used in the title of the thread as it was used by in the report to which the thread referred. My issue, as you'd have seen had you more carefully read my post, is with cowardly begrudging little whingers taking an opportunity to gratituously have a go on a completely tangential issue.

2) Yes, they can read perfectly well in there. Chances are they are doing what journalists routinely do with correspondance and having a laugh with colleagues at - as they would see it - the pedantic nut-job that worries about such irrelevant minutia. Don't expect a reply. A journalist will enter into individual correspondance only when there's an angle in it for them rather than to satisfy the fetish of some individual with too much time on their hands.

3) Why would you want to walk into staff-rooms and demand an apology for misinformation? Your extrapolation of a very small sample to talk for all teachers is the problem here. But if you want to believe that all Independent readers are teachers having their breakfast in Mother Hubbard's on the way to work then work away. Just don't expect to be taken seriously.

Powerhouse

ntlbell wrote: »

I'm not a teacher I didn't realise I had to be one to have an opinion on the subject?

It doesn't preclude you from having an opinion, only an informed one.

ntlbell

Powerhouse wrote: »

It doesn't preclude you from having an opinion, only an informed one.

So the only people who can discuss the issue are teachers?

Does spending over 18 years in education entitle me to one?

Having a child in secondary school?

Having good personal friends as teachers?

Maybe you can let me know what the criteria is.

number10a

Powerhouse wrote: »

It doesn't preclude you from having an opinion, only an informed one.

While I disagree with a lot of what ntlbell has said, I find this very exclusionary. Are we not capable of informed opinions on politics, for example, by virtue of the fact that we are not elected representives?

yosser hughes

Powerhouse wrote: »

1) Supposedly, though some people insist on sidetracking about holidays.

2) No and yes. 'No', on the basis that pay has been cut by near enough to 20 per cent in recent years so it's clearly a runner - teachers are aware of that. But 'yes', on the basis of the Croke Park agreement. That you don't like it is irrelevant. Some teachers actually expect the government to honour its agreement or else do the decent thing and declare it null and void and see where the chips fall.

3) This is an utterly baffling question. Are you not aware of the job losses in teaching in recent years? Where do you get words like 'immune' in that context?

4) This is irrelevant hearsay. Obviously you would say that given the argument you are trying to make. I could tell you that everyone I know is utterly driven and motivated, and none of it would get us much further along.

dambarude wrote: »

The article was referring specifically to additional paycuts which have been made in the last two months. New teachers will enter on a salary which has been cut by the general public sector pension levy, pay cut, the 10% general pay cut for new entrants, and a removal of all allowances (supervision, degree etc.). This amounts to close to a 30% cut in pay compared to equivalent new entrants in 2008.

How many permanent teachers have faced redundancy? When you say job losses, do you actually mean temporary contracts not being renewed?

Excluding new entrants, what are the salary cuts that teachers have taken? If you are going to mention the pension levy then tell me what that pension would cost a person in the private sector?

The CPA was agreed by teachers and govt,however there were caveats.
Economic growth and of course concessions by the teachers.
It seems a lot of those concessions were to the detriment of those entering teaching while those more senior members are less affected.

As I said before, I'm not doubting teaching is a tough job but so are lots of jobs. Lots of people have lost their permanent jobs, have no pension, have taken huge pay cuts.
With regard to holidays,I actually don't begrudge a teacher their holidays but it's hardly stretching things to believe that holidays is a factor when choosing teaching as a career choice? Holidays are part of the package of benefits in any job along with salary and pension, healthcare etc.
I get the impression that teachers genuinely believe they have been among the hardest hit in this recession.:eek:

Brussels Sprout

I've got a degree and a masters in a mathematical area and I've definitely thought about becoming a maths teacher but I wouldn't for 2 reasons:

1. The embargo
2. The stunt that the unions have pulled in sacrificing the new teachers at the expense of their own. The fact that new teachers will not get the same allowances, pension benefits or starting salary whilst the existing members are locked in seems grossly unfair. The country is broke. There is no more money. Surely the fairest thing would be for a small cut across the board rather than a huge cut to the newbies (if they're lucky enough to find a job in the first place). This was the situation that the footballers at Rangers found themselves in recently. There the most senior players ended up taking the largest cuts whilst the younger players took smaller cuts.

For all those people saying that "top students" should be pursuing other fields, I'm just wondering have they really thought about this? For example in any sort of finance job that pays super money people will need to work 50+ hour weeks. If I had the choice between 100k a year with 50 hour weeks and 4 weeks holidays a year or 50k a year with 30 hour weeks and 4 and a half months holidays a year (secondary school) then I think that's a no-brainer.

And if you want to talk about more noble pursuits than benefits, well getting the opportunity to inspire hundreds of young minds over the course of your career is probably going to be more rewarding than most other jobs.

doc_17

Limericks wrote: »

It's hard to explain but what I in my opinion think is that if you have more promise then just learning a curriculum and then teaching that to a student you should be doing something else unless you of course have a real passion for it which I assume most teachers would.

I mean no insult when I say just learning a curriculum and I know it is more than that but not much more in the knowledge side.

Good God. That is one of the worst statements I have read on boards. You think learning how to teach children packed into classes (some of the largest in the EU) with all manner of learning disabilities is easy?

ntlbell wrote: »

No problem.

So can you show us a link showing german teachers average salary compared to irish for the years you refer to?

Nobody should be showing that to you...you obviously know? You are claiming that teachers are overpaid in relation to their european counterparts? Well then show us where you found this out then. Should be easy for you as seem to believe this is a stonewall fact. Reveal your sources.

doc_17

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

I've got a degree and a masters in a mathematical area and I've definitely thought about becoming a maths teacher but I wouldn't for 2 reasons:

1. The embargo
2. The stunt that the unions have pulled in sacrificing the new teachers at the expense of their own. The fact that new teachers will not get the same allowances, pension benefits or starting salary whilst the existing members are locked in seems grossly unfair. The country is broke. There is no more money. Surely the fairest thing would be for a small cut across the board rather than a huge cut to the newbies (if they're lucky enough to find a job in the first place). This was the situation that the footballers at Rangers found themselves in recently. There the most senior players ended up taking the largest cuts whilst the younger players took smaller cuts.

For all those people saying that "top students" should be pursuing other fields, I'm just wondering have they really thought about this? For example in any sort of finance job that pays super money people will need to work 50+ hour weeks. If I had the choice between 100k a year with 50 hour weeks and 4 weeks holidays a year or 50k a year with 30 hour weeks and 4 and a half months holidays a year (secondary school) then I think that's a no-brainer.

And if you want to talk about more noble pursuits than benefits, well getting the opportunity to inspire hundreds of young minds over the course of your career is probably going to be more rewarding than most other jobs.

30 hour weeks? What Job is this you speak of? I would love to only work 30 hour weeks!

As for the younger teachers getting screwed? Well, I was at a union meeting a month ago and there wasn't one member there under 30. And it wasn't the unions who cut their pay. It was the government.

doc_17

yosser hughes wrote: »

How many permanent teachers have faced redundancy? When you say job losses, do you actually mean temporary contracts not being renewed?

Excluding new entrants, what are the salary cuts that teachers have taken? If you are going to mention the pension levy then tell me what that pension would cost a person in the private sector?

The CPA was agreed by teachers and govt,however there were caveats.
Economic growth and of course concessions by the teachers.
It seems a lot of those concessions were to the detriment of those entering teaching while those more senior members are less affected.

As I said before, I'm not doubting teaching is a tough job but so are lots of jobs. Lots of people have lost their permanent jobs, have no pension, have taken huge pay cuts.
With regard to holidays,I actually don't begrudge a teacher their holidays but it's hardly stretching things to believe that holidays is a factor when choosing teaching as a career choice? Holidays are part of the package of benefits in any job along with salary and pension, healthcare etc.
I get the impression that teachers genuinely believe they have been among the hardest hit in this recession.:eek:

Do you know that it is not possible to opt out of this pension?

Powerhouse

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

I've got a degree and a masters in a mathematical area and I've definitely thought about becoming a maths teacher but I wouldn't for 2 reasons:

1. The embargo
2. The stunt that the unions have pulled in sacrificing the new teachers at the expense of their own. The fact that new teachers will not get the same allowances, pension benefits or starting salary whilst the existing members are locked in seems grossly unfair.

Surely the fairest thing would be for a small cut across the board rather than a huge cut to the newbies (if they're lucky enough to find a job in the first place).

First of all, it was the government and not the unions that decided to cut new entrants' salaries. The unions don't pay teachers.

As for a general pay cut across the board...do you not realise that this has already happened? The cut to "newbies" came after that. If existing teachers taking paycuts represents some kind of weird solidarity to people who might enter the job down the road then it's already there in buckets if people care to acknowledge it.

Citing the salary of someone in the job for 10/15/20 years with maybe a large mortgage and significant expenses as a reason to not enter teaching defies logic. In most other jobs you will not even know what the person beside you is earning never mind feeling an entitlement to earn the same.

Powerhouse

number10a wrote: »

While I disagree with a lot of what ntlbell has said, I find this very exclusionary. Are we not capable of informed opinions on politics, for example, by virtue of the fact that we are not elected representives?

I can't comment on the wisdom of your political opinions - just that I am reading a remarkable amount of scutter about teaching which clearly show a lack of knowledge about the job.

We can't stop people offering opinions, but we can challenge them and suggest that they are ill-informed nonsense. To give just one example; we have people coming on here telling us that Irish teachers are the best paid in Europe and then when challenged they look for others to find the sources of the informaton for them!

This is the weakness of the great confluence of opinion that in the interent - you have to put up with that sort of inane verbal incontinence provided by people who read bits and piece of newspaper reports without discernment and spout it out here as gospel.

And are my views exclusionary? Not at all. I'm not preventing anyone becoming a teacher and being able to provide informed opinions. But the idea that all opinions are of equal merit is delusional.

ntlbell

doc_17 wrote: »

Do you know that it is not possible to opt out of this pension?

I'm in a private sector job and can't opt out either.

I'm not sure I would want to avoid a company trying to give me money and a benefit.

So can you answer his question how much it would cost for an equivalent pension in the private sector?

Brussels Sprout

Powerhouse wrote: »

First of all, it was the government and not the unions that decided to cut new entrants' salaries. The unions don't pay teachers.

Of course they don't pay teachers, but they do exert enormous powers when it comes to influencing the government on budgetary issues (i.e. what's off the table when it comes to cuts).

Powerhouse wrote: »

Citing the salary of someone in the job for 10/15/20 years with maybe a large mortgage and significant expenses as a reason to not enter teaching defies logic. In most other jobs you will not even know what the person beside you is earning never mind feeling an entitlement to earn the same.

I'm not referring to people who've been in the job for 10/15 years. I'm referring to people who got their teaching numbers as little as 2 years ago who started on 6k higher salaries, got 10% more pension entitlements and get their various allowances all in comparison to today's starters.

The 50k/100k comparison was for two senior people.

ntlbell

Powerhouse wrote: »

First of all, it was the government and not the unions that decided to cut new entrants' salaries. The unions don't pay teachers.

So their bankrupt employers reduced salaries for new entrants. sounds like a sound decision no?

Powerhouse wrote: »

As for a general pay cut across the board...do you not realise that this has already happened? The cut to "newbies" came after that. If existing teachers taking paycuts represents some kind of weird solidarity to people who might enter the job down the road then it's already there in buckets if people care to acknowledge it.

The cuts should and will continue to happen as long as the employer can't afford those wages. It's simple economics.

doc_17

ntlbell wrote: »

I'm in a private sector job and can't opt out either.

I'm not sure I would want to avoid a company trying to give me money and a benefit.

So can you answer his question how much it would cost for an equivalent pension in the private sector?

I couldn't care less what it costs. I was forced into this pension, have no choice in it and yet get attacked for having it. If you want to find out what it costs go and look into it yourself as you do seem to have plenty of time on your hands.......

ntlbell

doc_17 wrote: »

I couldn't care less what it costs. I was forced into this pension, have no choice in it and yet get attacked for having it. If you want to find out what it costs go and look into it yourself as you do seem to have plenty of time on your hands.......

Generally teachers are not attacked for having a pension.

They're attacked when they state they "have to pay for it" now. Well join the club. so does everyone else and it generally costs a hell of a lot more in the private sector.

no one forced you into the public sector, no one forces you to stay there and no one forces you to continue to pay into the pension.

You're free at anytime to walk away. It's a great country we live in that gives us this right.