Proposal to limit Catholic Church’s role in primary schools.

Run_to_da_hills

Removing Communion and Confirmation preparation from the school day, and changes to laws that allow schools restrict places to children of their own faith, have been recommended in a blueprint for the primary education system.

No harm and about time.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/proposal-to-limit-churchs-role-in-schools-190009.html

Doc

I can’t see anything wrong with any of these reforms. It may be difficult to implement them though given the number of religious orders, priests, nuns and brothers involved in education. In my opinion there should be a separation between religion and sate and that should translate into education.

(I am agnostic but if asked what religion I am I would probably still answer Roman Catholic as it is how I was raised)

ToddyDoody

Its a wonder they never came up with a way to cock muzzle the paedo priests. The only thing is they'd need to sit down to go for a wee. Desperate solution to a desperate problem.

conorhal

No problem with these particular reforms as long as minister quinn is prepared to go into the Islamic school in Clonskeagh and inform them that this applies to them also (they are in a constant and flagrent breach of teaching standards and curriculum adherence as it stands).

lividduck

conorhal wrote: »

No problem with these particular reforms as long as minister quinn is prepared to go into the Islamic school in Clonskeagh and inform them that this applies to them also (they are in a constant and flagrent breach of teaching standards and curriculum adherence as it stands).

Can you post a link to your evidence please.

clappyhappy

It really is time to get the church out of primary schools, in my own personal opinion.

Unless its a specific school with a religious theme, ie Jewish,Muslim, and if they so choose catholic schools, but not to have the majority of primary schools with a religious focus. Parents/guardians should have the choice of where to send their kids, something that us in small rural areas don't have.

Ellis Dee

It's way past time to get the church out of education altogether, or at most restrict it to religious schools, which are run by religious bodies but have to comply with the curriculum standards that the secular education authorities set and oversee.:rolleyes: No parents who do not buy into the sky fairy story should be deprived of the opportunity to send their child to a completely secular school (where religion is touched on only in contexts like history lessons or as part of teaching about the world's various religious and ideological beliefs).:)

Schools are supposed to be places where children learn to think.:D

Religion is all about believing.:rolleyes:

marty1985

Before this turns into the usual atheist circle jerk, haven't the catholic church (without whom most of our ancestors would've gone uneducated, to be fair) already said that they want a reform like this?

conorhal

lividduck wrote: »

Can you post a link to your evidence please.

I had to dig around a bit, it seems that nobody really likes to report what goes on there, even I have to admit that what I've heard is second hand from a friend of a friend that's connected to the school, but what I've heard tends to gel exactly with the headlines (listed below) which is that they place is little more than Koran study group that pays scant attention to any part of the the curriculum that it deems 'un-Islamic' (which it turns out seems to be a lot of it), I've no idea of who's site this is however:

http://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2009/06/19/in-schools/

Muslim school to face State probe on misallocation of funs
Unqualified principal at Muslim school for four years
Too much time spent on Koran
Fears extremism could flourish
Department inspectors find inadequate pupil records kept

lividduck

marty1985 wrote: »

Before this turns into the usual atheist circle jerk, haven't the catholic church (without whom most of our ancestors would've gone uneducated, to be fair) already said that they want a reform like this?

No, they have not.

gbee

Generally a good thing.

Catholicism in Ireland has been simply lip service for a long time already, only the little children suffer for it though. Now we can blame the parents openly. As picket the Sunday schools and so on and so forth.

It'll also fill the Churches and give them a more defined role in those communities who want to follow and what remains of the religion will be stronger, happier and more supportive.

Win, win, win I think. Good News.

lividduck

conorhal wrote: »

I had to dig around a bit, it seems that nobody really likes to report what goes on there, even I have to admit that what I've heard is second hand from a friend of a friend that's connected to the school, but what I've heard tends to gel exactly with the headlines (listed below) here which is that they place is little more than Koran study grioup that pays scant attention to the curriculum, I've no idea of who's site this is however:

http://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2009/06/19/in-schools/

Muslim school to face State probe on misallocation of funs
Unqualified principal at Muslim school for four years
Too much time spent on Koran
Fears extremism could flourish
Department inspectors find inadequate pupil records kept

I asked for "evidence", not a diatribe from a website with a particular adgenda!
If (though I doubt it) what they claim is true , of course it should be investigated.

starbelgrade

marty1985 wrote: »

Before this turns into the usual atheist circle jerk, haven't the catholic church (without whom most of our ancestors would've gone uneducated, to be fair) already said that they want a reform like this?

How do you know that our ancestors would have gone uneducated without the Catholic Church?

That's like saying that Tuesday would have been called Wednesday if someone had not already named it Wednesday - ie., complete bollox.

conorhal

lividduck wrote: »

I asked for "evidence", not a diatribe from a website with a particular adgenda!
If (though I doubt it) what they claim is true , of course it should be investigated.

The 'diatribe' does cite several sources, mostly national newspapers. But as I said, any reporting that gels with what I've heard (second hand as it was) has been rather curiously burried, hence linking to a site who's veracity I can't confirm, but the refrences to Independent articles must be verifiable.

The below article is particularly worring as it tends to suggest at the end that school inspectors were well aware of the breaches in guidlines but chose for whatever reason not to report them or act on them untill the Taoiseach himself intervened, now you'd imagine that the Taoiseach intervening in the management of a school would be front page national headlines, but again, curiously, no:

SUNDAY INDEPENDENT OCTOBER 16, 2005
Taoiseach blew the whistle on Muslim school

THE Taoiseach, Bertie Ahern alerted his Minister for Education to concerns about a Muslim school in Dublin after he conducted his own investigation into a string of disturbing claims about the management of the school.
The Sunday Independent has learned that Mr Ahern’s attention was first brought to the manner in which the North Dublin Muslim National School Project was being run – including a claim that too much time was being devoted to teaching ofthe Koran.
The school, which is in Mr Ahern’s North Dublin constituency, yesterday issued a lengthy statement defending itself following the disclosure last week that it was being closely monitored by the Department of Education.
Government sources have confirmed that Mr Ahern was the first to be informed, last June, by “sources in his constituency” of issues of concern in relation to the school.
The Taoiseach then undertook his own investigation during the summer holiday period which, according to sources close to him, “confirmed his fears”.
The revelation that Mr Ahern undertook such an inquiry and that his fears were confirmed will come to a further blow to Shahzad Ahmed, the controversial chairman of
ANALYSIS
the Board of Management, who yesterday sought to downplay the furore surrounding the running of the school.
Yesterday, the Sunday Independent learned that just two weeks ago, his fears finally confirmed, Mr Ahern moved to act.
He approached the Minister for Education, Mary Hanafin, who at that stage was personally unaware that there were issues of concern relating to the school.
However, she soon established that the schools inspectorate division in her Department had knowledge of and was “aware of the concerns”. The school is now being closely monitored by the Department, which is reported to be “extremely concerned” at the management of the school in Cabra.

lividduck

conorhal wrote: »

The 'diatribe' does cite several sources, mostly national newspapers. But as I said, any reporting that gels with what I've heard (second hand as it was) has been rather curiously burried, hence linking to a site who's veracity I can't confirm, but the refrences to Independent articles must be verifiable.

The below article is particularly worring as it tends to suggest at the end that school inspectors were well aware of the breaches in guidlines but chose for whatever reason not to report them or act on them untill the Taoiseach himself intervened, now you'd imagine that the Taoiseach intervening in the management of a school would be front page national headlines, but again, curiously, no:

SUNDAY INDEPENDENT OCTOBER 16, 2005
Taoiseach blew the whistle on Muslim school

THE Taoiseach, Bertie Ahern alerted his Minister for Education to concerns about a Muslim school in Dublin after he conducted his own investigation into a string of disturbing claims about the management of the school.
The Sunday Independent has learned that Mr Ahern’s attention was first brought to the manner in which the North Dublin Muslim National School Project was being run – including a claim that too much time was being devoted to teaching ofthe Koran.
The school, which is in Mr Ahern’s North Dublin constituency, yesterday issued a lengthy statement defending itself following the disclosure last week that it was being closely monitored by the Department of Education.
Government sources have confirmed that Mr Ahern was the first to be informed, last June, by “sources in his constituency” of issues of concern in relation to the school.
The Taoiseach then undertook his own investigation during the summer holiday period which, according to sources close to him, “confirmed his fears”.
The revelation that Mr Ahern undertook such an inquiry and that his fears were confirmed will come to a further blow to Shahzad Ahmed, the controversial chairman of
ANALYSIS
the Board of Management, who yesterday sought to downplay the furore surrounding the running of the school.
Yesterday, the Sunday Independent learned that just two weeks ago, his fears finally confirmed, Mr Ahern moved to act.
He approached the Minister for Education, Mary Hanafin, who at that stage was personally unaware that there were issues of concern relating to the school.
However, she soon established that the schools inspectorate division in her Department had knowledge of and was “aware of the concerns”. The school is now being closely monitored by the Department, which is reported to be “extremely concerned” at the management of the school in Cabra.

Interesting piece but the original post was in relation to the Muslim Centre in Clonskeagh, not the school mentioned in this article.
Again, I reiterate however if there is evidence of wrongdoing or failure to meet the standards required at the school in Clonskeagh of course it should be investigated.

Biggins

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Removing Communion and Confirmation preparation from the school day, and changes to laws that allow schools restrict places to children of their own faith, have been recommended in a blueprint for the primary education system.

No harm and about time.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/proposal-to-limit-churchs-role-in-schools-190009.html

Just a damn shame that the process (Irish typical style!) is going to be dragged out over years.
How ruddy long does it take to walk into a class room and take down a single symbol and/or put up others in space equally shared?
How long does it take to alter a school day schedule and print off a new one?
Totally stupid this is going to be dragged out over years to do. A ruddy farce!

...the Department of Education hopes that the handover of the first Catholic schools to another patron could start happening in about a year.

http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/education/latest-news/church-preparing-historic-handover-of-primary-schools-3075089.html

START happening in a year?
Stupid!
They can be quick enough to bring things in if it was a money grabbing tax or law restricting internet rights!

Paparazzo

If communion and confirmation was removed completely, hopefully it returns to the proper religious ceremony it's supposed to be, instead of an excuse for the kid to collect money and wear a mini wedding dress and a day for the parents to get píssed up.

Biggins

Paparazzo wrote: »

If communion and confirmation was removed completely, hopefully it returns to the proper religious ceremony it's supposed to be, instead of an excuse for the kid to collect money and wear a mini wedding dress and a day for the parents to get píssed up.

Its a money making racket nowadays. Thats all.
Money for the kids who a lot will spend it (lets be honest) on games or consoles or whatever, it will end up up back in consumer cash flow (a good thing in itself) but detracts from what the occasion is supposed to be all about - and for shops charging in some cases stupid money for dresses and clothes that will be worn for one, maybe two days at most.
An excuse for a money grabbing exercise.

conorhal

lividduck wrote: »

Interesting piece but the original post was in relation to the Muslim Centre in Clonskeagh, not the school mentioned in this article.
Again, I reiterate however if there is evidence of wrongdoing or failure to meet the standards required at the school in Clonskeagh of course it should be investigated.

There are plenty of links in that article citing national news articles about Clonskeagh too.
The school received a lot of Saudi money for it's establishment and funding, and I have real concerns about the pernicious 'wahhabism' version of Islam that the Saudi’s promote with their oil money, it’s horribly regressive and allowing it to flourish in what is a state funded school after all should be stopped. Which is one reason that I support the current reforms, I don’t think that the Catholic ethos of our is particularly damaging or regressive, but it has no place in the curriculum and the special place of religion in the school system has permitted a back door justification for the kind of antics that the Muslim schools here are up to.
There are real concerns in the UK that some Muslim schools are little more than Pakistani style madras’s and that this fact is contributing to the low educational attainment, and subsequent high unemployment and lack of integration afflicting some Muslim communities, and thus the self perpetuating deprivation which this fuels Islamic extremism. We really don’t need that happening here.

While you say that any wrongdoing or failure to achieve standards should be investigated, do you have any faith that it will? We hardly do so in our state run schools after all.

token56

I think few people would quarrel with the proposals being made. But the process to get them implemented needs to be stream lined and cost effective, however this is highly unlikely unfortunately.

Run_to_da_hills

token56 wrote: »

I think few people would quarrel with the proposals being made. But the process to get them implemented needs to be stream lined and cost effective, however this is highly unlikely unfortunately.

To break the children of Ireland free from the bondage of this corrupt institutionalized religious slavery is worth any price.

token56

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

To break the children of Ireland free from the bondage of this corrupt institutionalized religious slavery is worth any price.

Oh I agree completely I just mean that being realistic about it the whole process is likely to be convoluted and cost more than would actually be required.

Mountainlad

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Removing Communion and Confirmation preparation from the school day, and changes to laws that allow schools restrict places to children of their own faith, have been recommended in a blueprint for the primary education system.

No harm and about time.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/proposal-to-limit-churchs-role-in-schools-190009.html

With the authority bestowed in me, I am happy to announce that I ACCEPT!

lividduck

conorhal wrote: »

There are plenty of links in that article citing national news articles about Clonskeagh too.
The school received a lot of Saudi money for it's establishment and funding, and I have real concerns about the pernicious 'wahhabism' version of Islam that the Saudi’s promote with their oil money, it’s horribly regressive and allowing it to flourish in what is a state funded school after all should be stopped. Which is one reason that I support the current reforms, I don’t think that the Catholic ethos of our is particularly damaging or regressive, but it has no place in the curriculum and the special place of religion in the school system has permitted a back door justification for the kind of antics that the Muslim schools here are up to.
There are real concerns in the UK that some Muslim schools are little more than Pakistani style madras’s and that this fact is contributing to the low educational attainment, and subsequent high unemployment and lack of integration afflicting some Muslim communities, and thus the self perpetuating deprivation which this fuels Islamic extremism. We really don’t need that happening here.

While you say that any wrongdoing or failure to achieve standards should be investigated, do you have any faith that it will? We hardly do so in our state run schools after all.

No I dont which is why I believe that religion should be removed from schools altogther. I disagree that Catholic teaching does little harm, it is a teaching of intolerance especially in regard to contraception, homosexuality, divorce, and abortion.
With regard to religious teaching, even if the schools do remove religion, parents will, quite rightly,retain the right to have their children educated in to their religion outside school hours.

marty1985

starbelgrade wrote: »

How do you know that our ancestors would have gone uneducated without the Catholic Church?

That's like saying that Tuesday would have been called Wednesday if someone had not already named it Wednesday - ie., complete bollox.

I'm not going to deny historical fact for the sake of aiming vitriol at the church. We weren't much more than a developing country for a long time with abject poverty and emigration on a mass scale, and to think that another institution would have stepped in to voluntarily run our education system is being very simplistic. Even in the new independent Ireland the country was strapped for a tax base and the priests and nuns and religious orders provided education voluntarily. The government didn't have the money or the infrastructure to take control, that would take time. The simple fact is that a lot of my ancestors were educated by religious men and women because they were the only ones who provided an education to poor people.

I don't think the church should have so much control over education, and Diarmuid Martin has said the church would welcome more diverse running of primary schools to reflect religious trends in society. They are the ones who can no longer afford it.

Dyr

I'm all for kicking the religious orders out of the education system on two conditions:

1) This state actually starts picking up the tab for educating its citizens

2) We don't go replacing religious indoctrination with social indoctrination, which is what Ruairí and the other social engineers are gunning for

Freddie59

Biggins wrote: »

Its a money making racket nowadays. Thats all.
Money for the kids who a lot will spend it (lets be honest) on games or consoles or whatever, it will end up up back in consumer cash flow (a good thing in itself) but detracts from what the occasion is supposed to be all about - and for shops charging in some cases stupid money for dresses and clothes that will be worn for one, maybe two days at most.
An excuse for a money grabbing exercise.

True in some cases unfortunately. But not all. There are some children who will see the inside of a Church for Baptism, Communion, and Confirmation. Then possibly a wedding.

Then there are those who embrace the Faith. As a parent of three adult children, having often spoken with them about it, it kinda breaks down like this:

Oldest one (son) mid-20s: doesn't attend the Sacraments, but has the faith.

Middle child (daughter/mid-20s): Mass goer with a deep Faith.

Youngest Child (daughter/early 20s) When she was growing up, was very rebellious, it was all a fairy tale, etc. Now that she's calming down, even she herself admits openly to her Faith, and that she prays regularly.

As parents, we felt it was our duty to bring them to Mass as they grew up. When they hit 14 and 15 we let them decide for themselves.

They're three fairly astute individuals, with extremely diverse personalities.

I think we've done alright by them.

It does sadden me, however, to see the vitriolic outpouring of hatred on these boards directed at both the Clergy and the flock alike. And this alongside a defence of Muslim school which seems to be at odds with the hatred directed towards the Catholic Church by some posters.

I, for one, am grateful to the Catholic Church for providing and education to people down through the years may not otherwise have received one.

Have they fcuked up? Yes, regularly. And still do. But I still think this country owes them an awful lot Despite the hateful rantings of some.

Ashbourne hoop

Its a good thing, and a well overdue move. Hopefully it will end the ridiculous practice of parents christening their child just so they can get a place in the local school.

Freddie59

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

To break the children of Ireland free from the bondage of this corrupt institutionalized religious slavery is worth any price.

:rolleyes:

Freddie59

conorhal wrote: »

There are plenty of links in that article citing national news articles about Clonskeagh too.
The school received a lot of Saudi money for it's establishment and funding, and I have real concerns about the pernicious 'wahhabism' version of Islam that the Saudi’s promote with their oil money, it’s horribly regressive and allowing it to flourish in what is a state funded school after all should be stopped. Which is one reason that I support the current reforms, I don’t think that the Catholic ethos of our is particularly damaging or regressive, but it has no place in the curriculum and the special place of religion in the school system has permitted a back door justification for the kind of antics that the Muslim schools here are up to.
There are real concerns in the UK that some Muslim schools are little more than Pakistani style madras’s and that this fact is contributing to the low educational attainment, and subsequent high unemployment and lack of integration afflicting some Muslim communities, and thus the self perpetuating deprivation which this fuels Islamic extremism. We really don’t need that happening here.

While you say that any wrongdoing or failure to achieve standards should be investigated, do you have any faith that it will? We hardly do so in our state run schools after all.

But people will bury their heads in the sand and ignore it Conor. As they always do. I wonder if the education system in Islamic countries is being adjusted to allow Christian teaching? I doubt it somehow.

Freddie59

marty1985 wrote: »

The government didn't have the money or the infrastructure to take control, that would take time. The simple fact is that a lot of my ancestors were educated by religious men and women because they were the only ones who provided an education to poor people.

I don't think the church should have so much control over education, and Diarmuid Martin has said the church would welcome more diverse running of primary schools to reflect religious trends in society. They are the ones who can no longer afford it.

A point forgotten by many Marty.

marty1985

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

To break the children of Ireland free from the bondage of this corrupt institutionalized religious slavery is worth any price.

In 2012, It's hard to know which side has the bigger persecution complex.

goose2005

marty1985 wrote: »

Before this turns into the usual atheist circle jerk, haven't the catholic church (without whom most of our ancestors would've gone uneducated, to be fair) already said that they want a reform like this?

No. Schools were funded by taking collections from locals; whether this was carried out by churches or by state taxation, the schools would have been built anyway. Teachers' salaries have always been paid by taxpayers. In 1830, when the national school system was set up, it was intended to be religiously mixed, but bishops of both stripes put a stop to that.

Bambi wrote: »

I'm all for kicking the religious orders out of the education system on two conditions:

1) This state actually starts picking up the tab for educating its citizens

It already does.

2) We don't go replacing religious indoctrination with social indoctrination, which is what Ruairí and the other social engineers are gunning for

Really?

Min

starbelgrade wrote: »

How do you know that our ancestors would have gone uneducated without the Catholic Church?

That's like saying that Tuesday would have been called Wednesday if someone had not already named it Wednesday - ie., complete bollox.

The penal laws banned education to Catholics, Catholics made sure they got the education they needed through hedge schools - exclusively Catholic schools.
This is the basis for so many Catholic schools in this country, the Catholic church is the biggest provider of education in the world outside of government provided education.

I Heart Internet

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

To break the children of Ireland free from the bondage of this corrupt institutionalized religious slavery is worth any price.

Sounds epic :rolleyes:

Run_to_da_hills

marty1985 wrote: »

In 2012, It's hard to know which side has the bigger persecution complex.

I would rather see no religion thought in schools than to have institutionalized religion.

If parents want their kids to have a religious education they should send them to private or Sunday schools .

partyatmygaff

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

To break the children of Ireland free from the bondage of this corrupt institutionalized religious slavery is worth any price.

Fight the power man.

Your post brought back all the memories of my primary school days where instead of actually learning we were beaten with a rusty mace and sent down the mines to mine for gold to make chalices for the pope.

Seachmall

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

If parents want their kids to have a religious education they should send them to private or Sunday schools .

It really boggles the mind as to why this idea is controversial for so many.

suicide_circus

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Fight the power man.

Your post brought back all the memories of my primary school days where instead of actually learning we were beaten with a rusty mace and sent down the mines to mine for gold to make chalices for the pope.

Ah yes, good times.

I Heart Internet

Heard John Coolihan this morning on the radio. He seems like a man threading a very thin line. In a sense, he's trying to give everyone what they want and that's going to be very difficult.

Only scanned the report but the areas (47 I think) that they propose to look at with an idea to transfer from the patronage of a church to A.N. Other seem sensible enough.

What, imho, I think an awful lot of people are underestimating is the degree of unwillingness you will find in most schools/communities to any change in patronage. On internet boards and barstools it's not difficult to find a consensus for "taking all the schools off the church" or "kicking religion out of schools". I suspect schools and their communities might be a different story. I know this is not a "real reason" but people don't like change, and won't want to see change that they suspect MIGHT change the quality of their children's education (however they imagine this might happen).

These are fairly reasonabe proposals although I think the wider recommendations of telling e.g. catholic schools that they can't prepare children for sacraments or a church of ireland school that it must also place statues of hundu gods in its classrooms are steps too far. Divestment of schools is one thing - dismantling of a schools ethos while allowing it to retain a nominal religious patronage is underhanded.

mikemac1

While transfers are under consideration by bishops, the group appointed last year by Education Minister Ruairi Quinn has gone furthest in its recommendations in relation to schools in areas where new patronage options are unlikely for families.

Such a top down approach

The minister, his group and the bishops deciding this between themselves

Do ordinary people get a say at all?
If there is a proposal for the school in your parish how about letting the people in the parish decide what to do.

It's their school too

Paparazzo

Seachmall wrote: »

It really boggles the mind as to why this idea is controversial for so many.

God forbid the parents have to put any effort in bringing up their kids as Catholic.

I Heart Internet

Seachmall wrote: »

It really boggles the mind as to why this idea is controversial for so many.

Its controversial because

a) That's not the way it is at the moment or within living memory. While this isn't a sound, logical reason for it, it is probably the most important. People are very wary of change.

b) While you may disagree, it makes logical sense for many that a primary school belonging to, under the patronage and management of a local church community (the parish) would provide religious education along the lines of that local parish along with the three Rs. Many would argue that if the local church doesn't pay the bills and the teachers wages that this is unreasonable. Others would say different.


So if your mind is boggled as to why its controversial for some, I suspect you are only looking at one side of the argument. This new report seems very good in that it seems to delve into both sides of the debate, historical stuff, etc.

I Heart Internet

mikemac1 wrote: »

Such a top down approach

The minister, his group and the bishops deciding this between themselves

Do ordinary people get a say at all?
If there is a proposal for the school in your parish how about letting the people in the parish decide what to do.

It's their school too

In fairness, they have to start somewhere pulling together a list of potential areas.

The report mentions questionnaires to current school parents and pre-school parents.

I think it's important to canvass a broad opinion in communities. The future of particular schools should NOT be in the gift of just CURRENT parents or teachers - or worse still, politicians or bishops.

KeithAFC

marty1985 wrote: »

I'm not going to deny historical fact for the sake of aiming vitriol at the church. We weren't much more than a developing country for a long time with abject poverty and emigration on a mass scale, and to think that another institution would have stepped in to voluntarily run our education system is being very simplistic. Even in the new independent Ireland the country was strapped for a tax base and the priests and nuns and religious orders provided education voluntarily. The government didn't have the money or the infrastructure to take control, that would take time. The simple fact is that a lot of my ancestors were educated by religious men and women because they were the only ones who provided an education to poor people.

I don't think the church should have so much control over education, and Diarmuid Martin has said the church would welcome more diverse running of primary schools to reflect religious trends in society. They are the ones who can no longer afford it.

Why does the school need to have a religious backbone to it though? Surely you can have proper schools up and running which are secular in nature. Leave the religion at the door so to speak.

The Catholic church still has a grip on the Irish Republic because it has a grip on the schools and the young people of the country. It is no wonder to me why the census results recently still had a high percentage saying yes to Catholicism because a lot of people are just brought up to think like the church.

I don't think religious studies should be banned or anything but it is pretty useless now when it comes to getting a job (Ironic, I know :pac:), so why not just focus more on subjects which will improve the country and job prospects for citizens?

eblistic

This report seems to strongly point out that the demand for alternatives to denominational catholic primary schools is out there and not being met. It's been there for a long time. These changes are long overdue. So what is the rationale given for the slow, softly-softly approach, as opposed to just getting on with it?

Winty

If a child is a student at a religious school they can study whatever fairy tail is in fashion but students at a Republic of Ireland state school should be taught skills for life not some make believe after life fantasy.

The Republic of Ireland should have nothing to do with any religion.

Knasher

conorhal wrote: »

No problem with these particular reforms as long as minister quinn is prepared to go into the Islamic school in Clonskeagh and inform them that this applies to them also (they are in a constant and flagrent breach of teaching standards and curriculum adherence as it stands).

conorhal wrote: »

I had to dig around a bit, it seems that nobody really likes to report what goes on there, even I have to admit that what I've heard is second hand from a friend of a friend that's connected to the school, but what I've heard tends to gel exactly with the headlines (listed below) which is that they place is little more than Koran study group that pays scant attention to any part of the the curriculum that it deems 'un-Islamic' (which it turns out seems to be a lot of it), I've no idea of who's site this is however:

http://dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2009/06/19/in-schools/

Muslim school to face State probe on misallocation of funs
Unqualified principal at Muslim school for four years
Too much time spent on Koran
Fears extremism could flourish
Department inspectors find inadequate pupil records kept

I haven't read the website you linked to, so perhaps the titles are a little misleading. But if islamic schools are facing state probes or inspectors are reporting inadequate records, it sounds a lot like Quinn is going into islamic schools and telling them the rules apply to them too.

Winty

Min wrote: »

The penal laws banned education to Catholics, Catholics made sure they got the education they needed through hedge schools - exclusively Catholic schools.

Incorrect

It was not only Catholics that suffered under penal Laws, Presbyterians also suffered.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_Laws_(Ireland)

The term Penal Laws in Ireland (Irish: Na Péindlíthe) were a series of laws imposed under English and later British rule that sought to discriminate against Roman Catholics and Protestant dissenters

I Heart Internet

Winty wrote: »

.... but students at a Republic of Ireland state school should be taught skills for life not some make believe after life fantasy.

There's no such thing as a "Republic of Ireland state school" but whatever.

the_syco

goose2005 wrote: »

No. Schools were funded by taking collections from locals; whether this was carried out by churches or by state taxation, the schools would have been built anyway. Teachers' salaries have always been paid by taxpayers.

I have to call bollox on this. The church had taught our ancestors in the past, but it's now time for the church to leave the schools as they not only unable to control their priests from kiddie fiddling, but they moved them around and didn't help the state police until they were backed into a corner.

KeithAFC wrote: »

Why does the school need to have a religious backbone to it though? Surely you can have proper schools up and running which are secular in nature. Leave the religion at the door so to speak.

Back in the day when the english were around, the Oranges got education, the Irish didn't, so the RC church popped in and educated the Irish, to prevent the Irish from becoming a "soup-taker".

I Heart Internet wrote: »

There's no such thing as a "Republic of Ireland state school" but whatever.

He may be getting mixed up with the RoI state sponsored school.