Proposal to limit Catholic Church’s role in primary schools.

DEFTLEFTHAND

gurramok wrote: »

Not when I was in a Catholic school in the 80's. The Hail Mary was drummed into us literally every day and there was no study of other religions or no religions.

Yes I imagine so, 80s Ireland was still very subordinate to the Catholic Church, it did evolve over time though and Religious education became a subject of substance and worth.

Run_to_da_hills

gurramok wrote: »

Not when I was in a Catholic school in the 80's. The Hail Mary was drummed into us literally every day and there was no study of other religions or no religions.

When you pray the Hail Mary you are praying to a dead body in a grave awaiting the resurrection. Praying to Dead bodies is forbidden in Deuteronomy. 18:11

omega666

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

the problem is that Catholics have over 90% of the schools in the country.

There are some towns in Ireland where if you wanted to send your child to a Christian or Secular school you would have no choice in the matter because the only school in the area would be a Catholic run school.

`

But sure 84% of the population are quite happy to regard themselves as catholic so the schools meets what the vast majority of what the population want.

If the tiny minority of atheists or whoever feel so strongly that they don't want to send their children to a catholic school why don't they set up their own schools or move somewhere that better suit their needs.

Run_to_da_hills

omega666 wrote: »

`

But sure 84% of the population are quite happy to regard themselves as catholic so the schools meets what the vast majority of what the population want.

If the tiny minority of atheists or whoever feel so strongly that they don't want to send their children to a catholic school why don't they set up their own schools or move somewhere that better suit their needs.

This is what I find so hypocritical about Irish people, They curse the Catholic Church for what it is, they call it a corrupt pedophile organisation and at the same time they would tick the box on the census form, get their child christened, partake in their wedding and funeral ceremonies. I have plenty of friends at this this. You can't knock a system and take part in it at the same time. The Catholic Church is built on numbers and they feed on that.

I admire my brother when I asked him recently was he going to get his child Christened he said NO, he is not Christian and he is was correct not Christening his child. The Child must become to the age of reason to decide himself whether she wants to become Christian. It is not biblical and when a priest spills a spoon of water over a babies head it only gets its head wet.

Jcarroll07

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

This is what I find so hypocritical about Irish people, They curse the Catholic Church for what it is, they call it a corrupt pedophile organisation and at the same time they would tick the box on the census form, get their child christened, partake in their wedding and funeral ceremonies. I have plenty of friends at this this. You can't knock a system and take part in it at the same time. The Catholic Church is built on numbers and they feed on that.

I admire my brother when I asked him recently was he going to get his child Christened he said NO, he is not Christian and he is was correct not Christening his child. The Child must become to the age of reason to decide himself whether she wants to become Christian. It is not biblical and when a priest spills a spoon of water over a babies head it only gets its head wet.

Yes there are problems in the church no one not even the most devout can deny that. But there are problems in a lot of this yet people still take part. You have to learn from your mistakes, improve and move on that's life.
BOI and other banks made afoul mistakes yet people still have bank accounts with them.
Lastly on your last line i presume your just taking the piss.

lividduck

Jcarroll07 wrote: »

Yes there are problems in the church no one not even the most devout can deny that. But there are problems in a lot of this yet people still take part. You have to learn from your mistakes, improve and move on that's life.
BOI and other banks made afoul mistakes yet people still have bank accounts with them.
Lastly on your last line i presume your just taking the piss.

Can you provide a link to the evidence that BOI or any other financial institution was involved in the mass rape,sexualabuse and physical abuse and that they at the highest levels in those institutions sought to cover up that abuse and to obstruct state investigations into that abuse.

Jcarroll07

lividduck wrote: »

Can you provide a link to the evidence that BOI or any other financial institution was involved in the mass rape,sexualabuse and physical abuse and that they at the highest levels in those institutions sought to cover up that abuse and to obstruct state investigations into that abuse.

The banks have caused great hardship in this country and i would presume your to smart to try and defend the banking institutions of this country. You and i both know the banks lied to the government of this country and as a result many thousands have to endure a life of hardship weather that be unemployment to eviction the sign of the banking misconduct are clear for all to see. It may not be the same type of abuse but it is just as hard on the people that are affected by it. Both the church and the banks lied and covered up. But we now have to move on you can't look back for your whole life and complain get you no where.
The church are not the first and as we all know not the last to lie to us. So stop trying to make it out as if they are the only one to ever have done some thing like this. I am not defending the action of those involved but we all know it wasn't the whole church.

Run_to_da_hills

lividduck wrote: »

Can you provide a link to the evidence that BOI or any other financial institution was involved in the mass rape,sexualabuse and physical abuse and that they at the highest levels in those institutions sought to cover up that abuse and to obstruct state investigations into that abuse.

No I am serious. I don't accept the Roman Catholic Church to be a Christian church. It is a an evil pagan cradle to the casket cult based on hypocrisy, lies, deceit, superstition, corruption, materialism all this dressed up with words and names that are found in the Bible.


There is no such thing as a Roman Catholic Christian because it is a contradiction in terminology. No professed Christian in their right mind should put a penny on the plate to feed the largest untouchable pedophile ring in the world.

If you want to hide a lie you hide it between two truths and this has been the name of the game of the Catholic church right down to the time of Emperor Constantine. It is written: "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light". 2 Corinthians 11:14

kylith

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

When you pray the Hail Mary you are praying to a dead body in a grave awaiting the resurrection. Praying to Dead bodies is forbidden in Deuteronomy. 18:11

Not according to Catholic Dogma: Assumption of Mary

Does it annoy catholics when an atheist knows more about their religion than they do?

lividduck

Jcarroll07 wrote: »

The banks have caused great hardship in this country and i would presume your to smart to try and defend the banking institutions of this country. You and i both know the banks lied to the government of this country and as a result many thousands have to endure a life of hardship weather that be unemployment to eviction the sign of the banking misconduct are clear for all to see. It may not be the same type of abuse but it is just as hard on the people that are affected by it. Both the church and the banks lied and covered up. But we now have to move on you can't look back for your whole life and complain get you no where.
The church are not the first and as we all know not the last to lie to us. So stop trying to make it out as if they are the only one to ever have done some thing like this. I am not defending the action of those involved but we all know it wasn't the whole church.

The arrogance of you to claim that being a ten year old victim of sodomy and rape and being forced to swear an oath to secrecy in order to protect your abuser is is just as hard as losing your Job!
Were I post what I really think of you I would be banned for life from boards!

Run_to_da_hills

kylith wrote: »

Not according to Catholic Dogma: Assumption of Mary

Does it annoy catholics when an atheist knows more about their religion than they do?

I don't accept Catholic Church Dogma.

Christ is the only person ever to exist on this planet that rose from the dead and ascend into heaven..

mloc

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Christ is the only person ever to exist on this planet that rose from the dead and ascend into heaven..

http://i.imgur.com/MOdbG.gif

StudentDad

This country needs a total separation of church and state. We are supposed to be a Republic ffs!

Where the state is paying for the upkeep of schools, the employment of teachers etc etc., the roman catholic church or any church for that matter has no business dictating policy or methods etc in regard to education.

The sooner religious interference in the education of our children is stopped the better.

SD

omega666

StudentDad wrote: »

This country needs a total separation of church and state. We are supposed to be a Republic ffs!

Where the state is paying for the upkeep of schools, the employment of teachers etc etc., the roman catholic church or any church for that matter has no business dictating policy or methods etc in regard to education.

The sooner religious interference in the education of our children is stopped the better.

SD

no problem, buy all the land, schools and deeds from the catholic church and away you go. Just dont come complaining when there is a huge increase in you tax to pay for it for the next 50 years.

lividduck

omega666 wrote: »

no problem, buy all the land, schools and deeds from the catholic church and away you go. Just dont come complaining when there is a huge increase in you tax to pay for it for the next 50 years.

Better still just nationalize them!
Actually don't the Catholic orders still owe us taxpayers €750 million from the abuse redress compensation.

Run_to_da_hills

omega666 wrote: »

no problem, buy all the land, schools and deeds from the catholic church and away you go. Just dont come complaining when there is a huge increase in you tax to pay for it for the next 50 years.

The Church owe it to the country on repatriation grounds for all the sex abuse atrocities, cover ups and legal expenses that it has cost the tax payer down through the years.

omega666

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

The Church owe it to the country on repatriation grounds for all the sex abuse atrocities, cover ups and legal expenses that it has cost the tax payer down through the years.

Already ruled out by our minister for education.

Ruairi Quinn has sought the transfer many schools from Catholic trustees to the State. He also threw out an idea that schools could be used as capital by religious orders with outstanding or insufficient redress contributions.


http://www.irishexaminer.com/features/church-and-state-finances-are-dependent-on-assets-true-value-172142.html

StudentDad

omega666 wrote: »

no problem, buy all the land, schools and deeds from the catholic church and away you go. Just dont come complaining when there is a huge increase in you tax to pay for it for the next 50 years.

Thankyou for illustrating quite nicely just how un-christian the rc church is. If it was truly a christian organisation it would happily give over school buildings etc to the state without question. It won't do that though will it? No it wants it's 40 pieces of silver.

SD

kylith

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

I don't accept Catholic Church Dogma.

Christ is the only person ever to exist on this planet that rose from the dead and ascend into heaven..

It's unclear, in doctrine, if she was dead or not. She's not the only person to have been 'taken up' while still alive, Enoch was too, apparently.

If you don't follow Catholic doctrine, what chuch do you belong to?

Run_to_da_hills

kylith wrote: »

It's unclear, in doctrine, if she was dead or not. She's not the only person to have been 'taken up' while still alive, Enoch was too, apparently.

If you don't follow Catholic doctrine, what chuch do you belong to?

I would attend an independent church such as ST Marks on Pearse St.

Bubblefett

I come from a very religious background but I was sent to a school which didn't do the communions/confirmations as part of class time. If we wanted to do that we did it through our own churches. Great idea IMO.
Also our RE classes were spent learning about other religions and their differences- very respectful and well done
It was great and I would be happy if my kids go through school the same way. I do want them to have religion in their lives but I also want them to understand why, what other people believe, how to be respectful of others beliefs etc etc...

St.Spodo

It's insane that people still think that the Roman Catholic Church should still be in control of 90% of our schools after decades of facilitating the most horrendous crimes against the children of the nation. Throughout our history, they have done nothing more than impede intellectual progress and stifle our ancestors in an enforced culture of guilt and perpetual misery.

On top of that and as I've said here before, the idea of children being good Catholics is silly. A child cannot be a Catholic in the same way a child can't be a fascist. It's the most objectionable reality that children a force-fed groundless, faith-based, stone-age myths. It won't happen to my children, that's for sure.

omega666

StudentDad wrote: »

Thankyou for illustrating quite nicely just how un-christian the rc church is. If it was truly a christian organisation it would happily give over school buildings etc to the state without question. It won't do that though will it? No it wants it's 40 pieces of silver.

SD

Yes because the church has survived for thousands of years by handing over everything it owns free of charge to encourage the promotion of other religion's and non believers. They are christian, not stupid.

StudentDad

omega666 wrote: »

StudentDad wrote: »

Thankyou for illustrating quite nicely just how un-christian the rc church is. If it was truly a christian organisation it would happily give over school buildings etc to the state without question. It won't do that though will it? No it wants it's 40 pieces of silver.

SD

Yes because the church has survived for thousands of years by handing over everything it owns free of charge to encourage the promotion of other religion's and non believers. They are christian, not stupid.

-Translation- The church should not give up its hold on education because to so so would be to relinquish its hold on a very large chunk of its power -

Not very christian that.

SD

padd b1975

StudentDad wrote: »

-Translation- The church should not give up its hold on education because to so so would be to relinquish its hold on a very large chunk of its power -

Not very christian that.

SD

Translation: The church should continue to be involved in education, to withdraw their support and expertise would result in the collapse of the education system.

lividduck

padd b1975 wrote: »

Translation: The church should continue to be involved in education, to withdraw their support and expertise would result in the collapse of the education system.

Bull****! If the church wants to be involved in education let them build, staff, and run their schools at their own expense. No school run at the taxpayers expense should be the domain or in the control of any one particular religious grouping.

padd b1975

lividduck wrote: »

Bull****! If the church wants to be involved in education let them build, staff, and run their schools at their own expense. No school run at the taxpayers expense should be the domain or in the control of any one particular religious grouping.

They have built, staffed and run their own schools, back when Ireland really did not have a pot to pee in.

Corkfeen

padd b1975 wrote: »

Translation: The church should continue to be involved in education, to withdraw their support and expertise would result in the collapse of the education system.

Explain to me how the education system would collapse? The church's current involvement is essentially to indoctrinate children. By removing the influence, you will make the education system more inclusive so that's hardly gonna result in the downfall of Irish people's education. It would actually free up alot of time to actually educate children instead of spending months preparing for communions and confirmations.

Craebear

bubblefett wrote: »

I come from a very religious background but I was sent to a school which didn't do the communions/confirmations as part of class time. If we wanted to do that we did it through our own churches. Great idea IMO.
Also our RE classes were spent learning about other religions and their differences- very respectful and well done
It was great and I would be happy if my kids go through school the same way. I do want them to have religion in their lives but I also want them to understand why, what other people believe, how to be respectful of others beliefs etc etc...

Good for you. My religion classes in 5th and 6th year consisted of the schools chaplain yammering on about the evils of abortion and stem cell research.

lividduck

padd b1975 wrote: »

They have built, staffed and run their own schools, back when Ireland really did not have a pot to pee in.

Yea, they also built, staffed, and ran Magdelene laundries, Letterfrack, Artane, and numerous other torture camps, are you suggesting they be brought back too?

StudentDad

padd b1975 wrote: »

lividduck wrote: »

Bull****! If the church wants to be involved in education let them build, staff, and run their schools at their own expense. No school run at the taxpayers expense should be the domain or in the control of any one particular religious grouping.

They have built, staffed and run their own schools, back when Ireland really did not have a pot to pee in.

If the church wants to build and run private schools, pay their own teachers and get parents of children to pay fees to attend these schools. That is their choice. So long as they adhere to the curriculum laid down by the State and abide by State guidelines.

However, where the State pays the bill, the State calls the tune.

SD

padd b1975

lividduck wrote: »

Yea, they also built, staffed, and ran Magdelene laundries, Letterfrack, Artane, and numerous other torture camps, are you suggesting they be brought back too?

No, we have an adequate prison system now.

padd b1975

StudentDad wrote: »

If the church wants to build and run private schools, pay their own teachers and get parents of children to pay fees to attend these schools. That is their choice. So long as they adhere to the curriculum laid down by the State and abide by State guidelines.

However, where the State pays the bill, the State calls the tune.

SD

Where the state pays all of the bills, the state can then call the tune.

lividduck

padd b1975 wrote: »

No, we have an adequate prison system now.

The women in Magdelene laundries had committed no crimes , nor indeed had the orphans placed in many of the other Concentration Camps ran by those scummy bastards that you so glibly defend

Jcarroll07

StudentDad wrote: »

-Translation- The church should not give up its hold on education because to so so would be to relinquish its hold on a very large chunk of its power -

Not very christian that.

SD

But why should they give it over to organizations and people who want to get rid of Catholicism. I have no problem with people not wanting to go to catholic schools thats fine. But to say that they have to hand over all/most catholic schools and stop religious teachings in class is just not right. People should have the right to choses weather they want religion in school or not. And aggressive atheists should not be allowed to determine what is and is not thought in catholic schools. They can have their own schools fine but they can butt out of the decision of catholic ones.

Corkfeen

padd b1975 wrote: »

Where the state pays all of the bills, the state can then call the tune.

The state essentially does pay all of the education system's bills....... The Catholic Church on the other hand have not paid the compensation which they owe....

padd b1975

lividduck wrote: »

The women in Magdelene laundries had committed no crimes , nor indeed had the orphans placed in many of the other Concentration Camps ran by those scummy bastards that you so glibly defend

Some of the women had committed crimes but I understand where you are coming from.

What other options were available for the care of orphans back then?

padd b1975

Corkfeen wrote: »

The state essentially does pay all of the education system's bills....... The Catholic Church on the other hand have not paid the compensation which they owe....

Who built the schools and staffed them for many years?

When is that bill going to be paid??

StudentDad

padd b1975 wrote: »

StudentDad wrote: »

If the church wants to build and run private schools, pay their own teachers and get parents of children to pay fees to attend these schools. That is their choice. So long as they adhere to the curriculum laid down by the State and abide by State guidelines.

However, where the State pays the bill, the State calls the tune.

SD

Where the state pays all of the bills, the state can then call the tune.

The State gets to call the tune irrespective of whether or not all the bills are paid by the State. The church does not have this right.. There is one temporal power in Ireland and it isn't the rc church.

SD

Ghost Buster

padd b1975 wrote: »

No, we have an adequate prison system now.

So do you advocate the imprisonment of women who get pregnant outside of marriage, pregnant from rape, are a distraction to 'virtuous' men or ar just a burden on their families.?

lividduck

padd b1975 wrote: »

Some of the women had committed crimes but I understand where you are coming from.

What other options were available for the care of orphans back then?

Do you mean apart from being raped buggered beaten sodomised and emotionally tortured? I would suggest that any option would probably be better.
However , to stick to the point in hand, everybody should have the freedom to practise their religion, but that should be a matter for the churches , the states obligation to educate should not include indoctrination in any religion, not just Catholic, but any religion.
Religion belongs in the church, education free from religious influence belongs in school.

StudentDad

Jcarroll07 wrote: »

StudentDad wrote: »

-Translation- The church should not give up its hold on education because to so so would be to relinquish its hold on a very large chunk of its power -

Not very christian that.

SD

But why should they give it over to organizations and people who want to get rid of Catholicism. I have no problem with people not wanting to go to catholic schools thats fine. But to say that they have to hand over all/most catholic schools and stop religious teachings in class is just not right. People should have the right to choses weather they want religion in school or not. And aggressive atheists should not be allowed to determine what is and is not thought in catholic schools. They can have their own schools fine but they can butt out of the decision of catholic ones.

Religion is an entirely private matter and as such State funded institutions should as a matter of course be neutral in terms of religion.

If a parent feels that religion is important they are free to indoctrinate their children outside of school time.

SD

DublinWriter

padd b1975 wrote: »

What other options were available for the care of orphans back then?

You're using the word 'care' in it's loosest possible sense there.

padd b1975

StudentDad wrote: »

The State gets to call the tune irrespective of whether or not all the bills are paid by the State. The church does not have this right.. There is one temporal power in Ireland and it isn't the rc church.

SD

So if thats the case, whats everyone getting all excited about??

Jcarroll07

lividduck wrote: »

Yea, they also built, staffed, and ran Magdelene laundries, Letterfrack, Artane, and numerous other torture camps, are you suggesting they be brought back too?

Yes theses terrible events did happen. But it was not the entire organization. Does there need to be reform in the church yes. But we don't need to wipe it out because of the actions of some.

Ghost Buster

Jcarroll07 wrote: »

But why should they give it over to organizations and people who want to get rid of Catholicism. I have no problem with people not wanting to go to catholic schools thats fine. But to say that they have to hand over all/most catholic schools and stop religious teachings in class is just not right. People should have the right to choses weather they want religion in school or not. And aggressive atheists should not be allowed to determine what is and is not thought in catholic schools. They can have their own schools fine but they can butt out of the decision of catholic ones.

Why do you equate having secular schools with 'getting rid of catholicism?
Is it because the Church knows that if it looses its access to children it will
(A) Lead to wishy washy a la carte parents not bothering their holes teaching their religion to their kids.
(B) In most cases be very very difficult to get adults to believe in talking snakes, angels, walking dead and other supernatural stories.

Ghost Buster

Jcarroll07 wrote: »

Yes theses terrible events did happen. But it was not the entire organization. Does there need to be reform in the church yes. But we don't need to wipe it out because of the actions of some.

Who is talking about wiping it out. Removing it from schools is not 'wiping it out'...
then again.....

padd b1975

DublinWriter wrote: »

You're using the word 'care' in it's loosest possible sense there.

Point taken, but the question still remains.

padd b1975

StudentDad wrote: »

Religion is an entirely private matter and as such State funded institutions should as a matter of course be neutral in terms of religion.

If a parent feels that religion is important they are free to indoctrinate their children outside of school time.

SD

And if parents feel religion is a load of nonsense, they are free to get their children educated somewhere else.

Ghost Buster

padd b1975 wrote: »

Point taken, but the question still remains.

Well without the Church lead option coupled with its perverted teaching on sexuality many of these girls may well have still been accepted at home and not be stigmatised.