Proposal to limit Catholic Church’s role in primary schools.

padd b1975

Ghost Buster wrote: »

So do you advocate the imprisonment of women who get pregnant outside of marriage, pregnant from rape, are a distraction to 'virtuous' men or ar just a burden on their families.?

Of course not.

padd b1975

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Well without the Church lead option coupled with its perverted teaching on sexuality many of these girls may well have still been accepted at home and not be stigmatised.

My question relates to orphans.

Ghost Buster

padd b1975 wrote: »

Of course not.

But when someone asked if you wanted a return of The Magdeline Laundries you said that we have a prison service now

Ghost Buster

padd b1975 wrote: »

My question relates to orphans.

'sigh' There would have been a good deal less orphans if not for church lead pressure for dirty girls to give up their children rather than turning to their families for help.

StudentDad

padd b1975 wrote: »

StudentDad wrote: »

The State gets to call the tune irrespective of whether or not all the bills are paid by the State. The church does not have this right.. There is one temporal power in Ireland and it isn't the rc church.

SD

So if thats the case, whats everyone getting all excited about??

Perhaps people are fed up with unaccountable religious organisations thinking they have the right to educate our children.

Ghost Buster

StudentDad wrote: »

Perhaps people are fed up with unaccountable religious organisations thinking they have the right to educate our children.

Especially with their internationally recognised dodgy track record when it comes to children. A little like fox lovers saying they have an interest in minding hens.

padd b1975

StudentDad wrote: »

Perhaps people are fed up with unaccountable religious organisations thinking they have the right to educate our children.

What was that you said about " one temporal power"?
Slight contradiction there.

Corkfeen

padd b1975 wrote: »

Who built the schools and staffed them for many years?

When is that bill going to be paid??

The compensation that is due is in the direction of 1 billion, I believe. That should cover all the expenses.... You are entirely deluded in your view that the organisation should still be revered by Irish people (defaulting the majority of Irish children to Catholic schools) and you never explained how the education system will collapse as a result of being separated from church domination.

padd b1975

Ghost Buster wrote: »

'sigh' There would have been a good deal less orphans if not for church lead pressure for dirty girls to give up their children rather than turning to their families for help.

Do you even know what an orphan is??

padd b1975

Corkfeen wrote: »

The compensation that is due is in the direction of 1 billion, I believe. That should cover all the expenses.... You are entirely deluded in your view that the organisation should still be revered by Irish people (defaulting the majority of Irish children to Catholic schools) and you never explained how the education system will collapse as a result of being separated from church domination.

Where exactly did I express the view that it should be revered??

Ghost Buster

padd b1975 wrote: »

Do you even know what an orphan is??

Yes
From wikipedia:
An orphan (from the Greek ὀρφανός[1]) is a child permanently bereaved of or abandoned by his or her parents
Why might a child be abandoned do you think.
Heres a clue- because the mother lives in Catholic Ireland of a certain era.

StudentDad

padd b1975 wrote: »

StudentDad wrote: »

Perhaps people are fed up with unaccountable religious organisations thinking they have the right to educate our children.

What was that you said about " one temporal power"?
Slight contradiction there.

No contradiction lol I might get it into my head that I like and want my neighbours car. I may take his keys and drive off in it. I may even think god thinks its a great idea. Doesn't make it true though =D

SD

Corkfeen

padd b1975 wrote: »

Where exactly did I express the view that it should be revered??

By allowing the church to retain schools on the basis that they set them up and people should get over it, is a sign of respect or reverence to the Catholic Church due to their past 'work'. However they are in massive debt to the people of this state and have inflicted awful wounds upon the people through the likes of the Magdalene Laundries (you seem to view the Magdalene Laundries as a necessity which they were not) and covered up sex abuse scandals. You haven't answered my question yet..

padd b1975

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Yes
From wikipedia:
An orphan (from the Greek ὀρφανός[1]) is a child permanently bereaved of or abandoned by his or her parents
Why might a child be abandoned do you think.
Heres a clue- because the mother lives in Catholic Ireland of a certain era.

Sadly children are abandoned for many reasons.
Not all of societies problems can be blamed on religion.

Knight who says Meh

Ghost Buster wrote: »

'sigh' There would have been a good deal less orphans if not for church lead pressure for dirty girls to give up their children rather than turning to their families for help.

padd b1975 wrote: »

Do you even know what an orphan is??

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Yes
From wikipedia:
An orphan (from the Greek ὀρφανός[1]) is a child permanently bereaved of or abandoned by his or her parents
Why might a child be abandoned do you think.
Heres a clue- because the mother lives in Catholic Ireland of a certain era.

Now thats gotta hurt!!!!!!!!

Corkfeen

padd b1975 wrote: »

Sadly children are abandoned for many reasons.
Not all of societies problems can be blamed on religion.

It was a time when the RCC pressured women into giving up their children because of that predominant Catholic viewpoint that the Irish were expected to adhere to. Where else would you say the idea came from? You are in complete and utter denial of the fact that the origins were entirely religious.

68Murph68

I'm baffled as to how anyone can think that the Catholic Church should having anything whatsoever to do with education and young people given the organisation's history in Ireland in terms of facilitating physical and sexual abuse and its cover-up.

Do people really think the number one organisation in Ireland which is infamous for allowing/supporting paedophilia and physical abuse should have a role relating to children?

Imagine that some other organisation that dealt with children had behaved as they had in the past. Say one of the sporting organisations such as the GAA/FAI/IRFU which are involved in coaching and promoting healthy lifestyles had behaved in the way that the Catholic Church in Ireland had done. Would their organisation get within a mile of any school in the land? Never mind actually being in charge of schools?

After reading the Ryan and Murphy reports the Catholic Church is lucky in my eyes that all the priests weren't rounded up and dumped out of the country entirely.

That's even before you get into the whole preaching made-up nonsense arena.

Ghost Buster

padd b1975 wrote: »

Sadly children are abandoned for many reasons.
Not all of societies problems can be blamed on religion.

You are fond of straw men arent you. At no point did i say 'all' or make any absolute statement. I simply said, as you well know, that there wouild be a good deal less orphans if not for the septic influence of the RCC on Irish society and its obsession with sex.

padd b1975

Corkfeen wrote: »

It was a time when the RCC pressured women into giving up their children because of that predominant Catholic viewpoint that the Irish were expected to adhere to. Where else would you say the idea came from? You are in complete and utter denial of the fact that the origins were entirely religious.

Note my use of the words "not all".

Ghost Buster

padd b1975 wrote: »

Note my use of the words "not all".

Your use of the words 'not all' were used with the implication that i was blaming all of societies ills on the church.
This is getting embarrassing. Trying to imply that I had the incorret meaning of 'Orphan' when it was actually you who did was bad enough. You should stop:(

padd b1975

Corkfeen wrote: »

By allowing the church to retain schools on the basis that they set them up and people should get over it, is a sign of respect or reverence to the Catholic Church due to their past 'work'. However they are in massive debt to the people of this state and have inflicted awful wounds upon the people through the likes of the Magdalene Laundries (you seem to view the Magdalene Laundries as a necessity which they were not) and covered up sex abuse scandals. You haven't answered my question yet..

Sorry getting bombarded here, not ignoring you.
I think you are using my viewpoint in the wrong context, I am well aware of the wrongdoing of the church.

As regards the unanswered question, I think you should study closely the actions of the current education minister into the future and form an opinion on whether our system has improved or gotten worse.

Jcarroll07

StudentDad wrote: »

Perhaps people are fed up with unaccountable religious organisations thinking they have the right to educate our children.

They don't have a right to religiously educate the children. But people do have a right to have their children religiously educated in school if they want as well.

Ghost Buster

Jcarroll07 wrote: »

They don't have a right to religiously educate the children. But people do have a right to have their children religiously educated in school if they want as well.

Absolutely. You couldnt expect the catholic parents to do it!!!!!

lividduck

Jcarroll07 wrote: »

They don't have a right to religiously educate the children. But people do have a right to have their children religiously educated in school if they want as well.

No,people should have the right to raise their children in the religion of their choosing, but the religious formation of children should take place outside of state funded schools.
I am not against religion, nor do I oppose the right of any person to follow their religion so long as it does not conflict with the laws of the state but religion belongs in places of worship not in state funded schools.

padd b1975

Ghost Buster wrote: »

Your use of the words 'not all' were used with the implication that i was blaming all of societies ills on the church.
This is getting embarrassing. Trying to imply that I had the incorret meaning of 'Orphan' when it was actually you who did was bad enough. You should stop:(

Your view is that abandoned children of a certain era were the fault of the catholic church, mine is that there were other factors.

Jcarroll07

68Murph68 wrote: »

I'm baffled as to how anyone can think that the Catholic Church should having anything whatsoever to do with education and young people given the organisation's history in Ireland in terms of facilitating physical and sexual abuse and its cover-up.

Do people really think the number one organisation in Ireland which is infamous for allowing/supporting paedophilia and physical abuse should have a role relating to children?

Imagine that some other organisation that dealt with children had behaved as they had in the past. Say one of the sporting organisations such as the GAA/FAI/IRFU which are involved in coaching and promoting healthy lifestyles had behaved in the way that the Catholic Church in Ireland had done. Would their organisation get within a mile of any school in the land? Never mind actually being in charge of schools?

After reading the Ryan and Murphy reports the Catholic Church is lucky in my eyes that all the priests weren't rounded up and dumped out of the country entirely.

That's even before you get into the whole preaching made-up nonsense arena.

That was only some of the organization that took part. Pules child safety and regulation have improved so much since then that anything like that happening again is highly unlikely. You can't dump the blame on the entire organization. There were and are the majority of priest that did absolutely nothing wrong why should they be punished. And what do you say to the people who do want their children to receive the religious education in school that they don't have the right to that but people who don't want it have the right to get ride of the religious education for all. That's just not right.
And that last bit is just your own opinion.

Ghost Buster

padd b1975 wrote: »

Your view is that abandoned children of a certain era were the fault of the catholic church, mine is that there were other factors.

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!! I said there would be 'a good deal less orphans'. But many many many of those who ended up in church run institutions came from catholic and thus catholic influenced families. Obviously outside of these cases there were other factors. Sheesh:rolleyes:

Jcarroll07

lividduck wrote: »

No,people should have the right to raise their children in the religion of their choosing, but the religious formation of children should take place outside of state funded schools.
I am not against religion, nor do I oppose the right of any person to follow their religion so long as it does not conflict with the laws of the state but religion belongs in places of worship not in state funded schools.

But why should it not happen in state funded schools that are designated catholic. People that don't want to send their children there don't have to. And it doesn't infringe in on any one.

Ghost Buster

Jcarroll07 wrote: »

That was only some of the organization that took part. Pules child safety and regulation have improved so much since then that anything like that happening again is highly unlikely. You can't dump the blame on the entire organization. There were and are the majority of priest that did absolutely nothing wrong why should they be punished. And what do you say to the people who do want their children to receive the religious education in school that they don't have the right to that but people who don't want it have the right to get ride of the religious education for all. That's just not right.
And that last bit is just your own opinion.

The funniest and most ironic typo ever?

lividduck

Jcarroll07 wrote: »

That was only some of the organization that took part. Pules child safety and regulation have improved so much since then that anything like that happening again is highly unlikely. You can't dump the blame on the entire organization. There were and are the majority of priest that did absolutely nothing wrong why should they be punished. And what do you say to the people who do want their children to receive the religious education in school that they don't have the right to that but people who don't want it have the right to get ride of the religious education for all. That's just not right.
And that last bit is just your own opinion.

Correct, people have no right to expect the state to fund their childrens religious indoctrination, that is the place of the parent and their church outside of school hours.

StudentDad

Jcarroll07 wrote: »

StudentDad wrote: »

Perhaps people are fed up with unaccountable religious organisations thinking they have the right to educate our children.

They don't have a right to religiously educate the children. But people do have a right to have their children religiously educated in school if they want as well.

Like I said in an earlier post, if a parent wants their children indoctrinated in school that's fine by me as long as the school is entirely financed by the church concerned and by the parents through fees.

Otherwise the indoctrination of children in religious dogma should occur outside of school hours.

It is not the business of the State to fund the indoctrination of children.

SD

Ghost Buster

Jcarroll07 wrote: »

But why should it not happen in state funded schools that are designated catholic. People that don't want to send their children there don't have to. And it doesn't infringe in on any one.

Google the percentage of Catholic schools
Google the availability of alternatives
Google the number of non catholics in the country
Google the number of catholics who think there should be secular schooling in the country
Then do the maths

lividduck

Jcarroll07 wrote: »

But why should it not happen in state funded schools that are designated catholic. People that don't want to send their children there don't have to. And it doesn't infringe in on any one.

Firstly there should be no such thing as a stste funded catholic school/protestant school or any other religious school. Secondly since the state has hiterto alloweddd the church to control education parents have had no choice but to send their children to schools adorned with religious icons and symbols where religion plays a central part in the days activities, that is wrong.

padd b1975

Ghost Buster wrote: »

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!! I said there would be 'a good deal less orphans'. But many many many of those who ended up in church run institutions came from catholic and thus catholic influenced families. Obviously outside of these cases there were other factors. Sheesh:rolleyes:

Again back to my question, what other options were available?

lividduck

padd b1975 wrote: »

Again back to my question, what other options were available?

Do you mean apart from raping,buggering, sodomising them and beating them with canes,hurleys, and leather straps?

Jcarroll07

lividduck wrote: »

Firstly there should be no such thing as a stste funded catholic school/protestant school or any other religious school. Secondly since the state has hiterto alloweddd the church to control education parents have had no choice but to send their children to schools adorned with religious icons and symbols where religion plays a central part in the days activities, that is wrong.

Ok for arguments sake. There are enough non catholic schools for people that want that. And there are enough catholic schools for people who want them. What's the problem. You have a choice and you can make it no problems for any one.

And just to say i don't mind the church handing over schools when the demand is their but if their is a demand for catholic schools then they should be considered as well. It can't be just about one group thats doesn't want it and then forget about the ones that do want it.

Jcarroll07

lividduck wrote: »

Correct, people have no right to expect the state to fund their childrens religious indoctrination, that is the place of the parent and their church outside of school hours.

It's just one group stamping on an other. It'll end up like france that you can even wear a cross in public because others don't want us doing that. Where does it end.

lividduck

Jcarroll07 wrote: »

Ok for arguments sake. There are enough non catholic schools for people that want that. And there are enough catholic schools for people who want them. What's the problem. You have a choice and you can make it no problems for any one.

And just to say i don't mind the church handing over schools when the demand is their but if their is a demand for catholic schools then they should be considered as well. It can't be just about one group thats doesn't want it and then forget about the ones that do want it.

NO. For arguements sake lets just say that schools are place s we send children to be educated not indoctrinated. The state should should own,staff, and control all state funded schools. If parents want their children indoctrinated it should happen outside school hours.
By the way all evidence is that demand for non religious education far outstrips supply!

St.Spodo

There's also another related argument about the morality of indoctrinating children into religious beliefs when they haven't got the capacity to fully understand them or challenge them. Essentially, kids are told something is absolutely true, when there is no basis for the beliefs in the first place. Schools should encourage critical thinking, not blind and unfounded superstition.

Jcarroll07

lividduck wrote: »

NO. For arguements sake lets just say that schools are place s we send children to be educated not indoctrinated. The state should should own,staff, and control all state funded schools. If parents want their children indoctrinated it should happen outside school hours.
By the way all evidence is that demand for non religious education far outstrips supply!

Why do you insist in calling it indoctrination. It not like they are separated from society and force feed these beliefs. They are then able as they get older to make their own decision on the matter having experienced the meaning of it all.
I think indoctrination of aggressive secularism should be out lawed and the right to choice of education for people preserved. And not have it decided for some people by others.
If there is more demand for non religious schools fine i don't mind handing over schools were the demand is. But people who want religious education also have that right to schools where demand is.

lividduck

Jcarroll07 wrote: »

Why do you insist in calling it indoctrination. It not like they are separated from society and force feed these beliefs. They are then able as they get older to make their own decision on the matter having experienced the meaning of it all.
I think indoctrination of aggressive secularism should be out lawed and the right to choice of education for people preserved. And not have it decided for some people by others.
If there is more demand for non religious schools fine i don't mind handing over schools were the demand is. But people who want religious education also have that right to schools where demand is.

I suggest you look up the word indocrinate, you will see that it is the currect term for religious based education.
Indoctrinate:
to instruct in a doctrine, principle, ideology, etc., especially to imbue with a specific partisan or biased belief or point of view.




















[URL="javascript:;"][/URL][URL="javascript:;"][/URL]

Jcarroll07

St.Spodo wrote: »

There's also another related argument about the morality of indoctrinating children into religious beliefs when they haven't got the capacity to fully understand them or challenge them. Essentially, kids are told something is absolutely true, when there is no basis for the beliefs in the first place. Schools should encourage critical thinking, not blind and unfounded superstition.

You don't believe every thing to the word that is in the bible. Most sane people know this. And i like many other i'm sure coped on to this at a pretty early age. The kids are not told that every thing is absolutely true you and i both know that.
You say there is no basis for the beliefs. But then there is no basis to show the beliefs not to be true. (in regard to the existence of god, jesus and an after life. Obviously not things like Adam and Eve and other things along those lines.)

lividduck

Jcarroll07 wrote: »

Why do you insist in calling it indoctrination. It not like they are separated from society and force feed these beliefs. They are then able as they get older to make their own decision on the matter having experienced the meaning of it all.
I think indoctrination of aggressive secularism should be out lawed and the right to choice of education for people preserved. And not have it decided for some people by others.
If there is more demand for non religious schools fine i don't mind handing over schools were the demand is. But people who want religious education also have that right to schools where demand is.

Of course they do, so long as they fund them without state aid and adhere to the curriculum laid down by the state.

lividduck

This is just going round in circles so I will bow having made my point as best I could.

Jcarroll07

lividduck wrote: »

I suggest you look up the word indocrinate, you will see that it is the currect term for religious based education.
Indoctrinate:
to instruct in a doctrine, principle, ideology, etc., especially to imbue with a specific partisan or biased belief or point of view.


















[URL="javascript:;"][/URL][URL="javascript:;"][/URL]

So it's ok to stop "indoctrination" of catholic and christian view. But not stop indoctrination of secularism in to society.

padd b1975

St.Spodo wrote: »

There's also another related argument about the morality of indoctrinating children into religious beliefs when they haven't got the capacity to fully understand them or challenge them. Essentially, kids are told something is absolutely true, when there is no basis for the beliefs in the first place. Schools should encourage critical thinking, not blind and unfounded superstition.

Have parents any role in your argument?

St.Spodo

Jcarroll07 wrote: »

You don't believe every thing to the word that is in the bible. Most sane people know this. And i like many other i'm sure coped on to this at a pretty early age. The kids are not told that every thing is absolutely true you and i both know that.
You say there is no basis for the beliefs. But then there is no basis to show the beliefs not to be true. (in regard to the existence of god, jesus and an after life. Obviously not things like Adam and Eve and other things along those lines.)

The fact that kids are instructed in belief in God in primary schools heavily implies that everything they are taught is true.

If your basis for religious instruction being taught in schools is ''there is no basis for the beliefs not to be true'' then it is ludicrous.

Jcarroll07

lividduck wrote: »

Of course they do, so long as they fund them without state aid and adhere to the curriculum laid down by the state.

secularism is a belief that there is no god ect. So there for it should get no funding from the state. If Christian who have a belief in god get no funds. So why should people of another belief (of no god) be allowed have funds.

But this is kind of going around in circles. People of all beliefs (christian or secularists) if they want have the right to the education including or excluding religious education with the help of state fund. To take that right away from any group is simply discrimination.

Nodin

Jcarroll07 wrote: »

secularism is a belief that there is no god ect. ............

Nope.

StudentDad

[L][/QUOTE]

So it's ok to stop "indoctrination" of catholic and christian view. But not stop indoctrination of secularism in to society.[/Quote]
Personally I think - that's the point isn't it? - I think! If the church gives up control of education maybe the next generation will be encouraged to think for themselves and come to a rational position on religion when they are older.

This herd mentality whereby children spend large chunks of their school time engaged in preparation for religious ceremonies is wrong and this preparation should occur off school premises outside of school hours.

SD