My brick wall

samina

Hi. I have spent years coming back to the same problem I wonder can anyone help me. I have a marriage in ss Michael & johns in 1889. The couple have very common names and I only have their fathers names. I contacted the church and they don't have them either. I've searched irishgenealogy for any hints that might arise from sponsors such as brothers or sisters whose marriages may give the mothers names but to no avail. Is there another way around this that I'm missing?

zagmund

Hi Samina,

It's not clear what you are missing or looking for. According to your post you have the record of the marriage in 1889, but you then move to saying the church "doesn't have them either"

Are you looking for details of the couple that got married, or their parents, or their family ?

z

samina

Apologies z sorry i wasnt clear this is driving me potty. it's the mothers names that I need I can't get any further without them as all the names are so common o neills and Reilly's.

Cedrus

I'm sure you've already thought of it but the only authoritative way is to find the parents marriage cert, if you know the age of the o neills and Reilly couple and with even more luck if they were first borns you could count back to get an approximate marriage date and search the surrounding churches. Unfortunately, without their ages and without the assumption that the first born children would follow a year after the marriage there's a huge window to search.

Another slim possibility is burial records, occasionally a child was buried with grandparents possibly giving the grandmothers name.

samina

Cedrus wrote: »

I'm sure you've already thought of it but the only authoritative way is to find the parents marriage cert, if you know the age of the o neills and Reilly couple and with even more luck if they were first borns you could count back to get an approximate marriage date and search the surrounding churches. Unfortunately, without their ages and without the assumption that the first born children would follow a year after the marriage there's a huge window to search.

Another slim possibility is burial records, occasionally a child was buried with grandparents possibly giving the grandmothers name.

Hi cedrus

Thanks for the reply. I have the marriage cert of the couple who married in Michael and johns. Which just gives the fathers name of Thomas o neill. That's all I have on the father so I needn't tell you how many marriages for Thomas O neills there are. So unless I find the mothers name somehow Im stuck.
As for the graves any I've found were poor graves do that may rule out being buried with family members?

I'm just taking a chance here that someone may see something in not. I've been looking at it for so long I can't see the wood from the trees.

shanew

Do you have the civil cert for the marriage ?
That should include a bit more than just names - there can be clues in the occupations of the fathers, current residences for the bride and groom etc


S.

samina

shanew wrote: »

Do you have the civil cert for the marriage ?
That should include a bit more than just names - there can be clues in the occupations of the fathers, current residences for the bride and groom etc


S.

Hi Shane

Yeah I have it. Occupations were labourer and dairyman. I chanced the addresses in the census which I know was a long shot. I searched Irish genealogy for records of these streets to see if there were any records of the same surnames and addresses but to no avail.

Cedrus

How about baptismal records?
If you've found them on the census are there any mother in laws, aunties, nieces etc living with them?

samina

Cedrus wrote: »

How about baptismal records?
If you've found them on the census are there any mother in laws, aunties, nieces etc living with them?

Hi Cedrus
Do you mean the couples baptism records? I can't find them without the mothers names either.

Unfortunately they didn't live with any family members during the times the census was taken

pinkypinky

Is SS Michael & John the church they married in? Have you tried other churches in the area for baptismal records?

Does their marriage cert give ages or just "full"? They probably have civil birth certs, so if you have the age, you can extrapolate back.

Also, what names did they give their daughters? Usually, will be grandmothers' names.

Apart from these, I think you may be going in circles - can't find the mothers' without the birth cert. Also, if you have nothing to go, how will you know if you do find the right record?

samina

pinkypinky wrote: »

Is SS Michael & John the church they married in? Have you tried other churches in the area for baptismal records?

Does their marriage cert give ages or just "full"? They probably have civil birth certs, so if you have the age, you can extrapolate back.

Also, what names did they give their daughters? Usually, will be grandmothers' names.

Apart from these, I think you may be going in circles - can't find the mothers' without the birth cert. Also, if you have nothing to go, how will you know if you do find the right record?

Oh I am soo going in circles. Yes that's the church they married in. The certs just says full.
As I have nothing to go on I won't be able to try baptisms either. I never thought of the children's names being grandparents. Thanks.

This is my last ditch attempt to find a way around it before I hang up my boots.

Thanks all for the help

shanew

can you post the addresses and the father's names ?

depending on the type of building etc, it might be possible to check the head of household for the locations going back a few years..

samina

shanew wrote: »

can you post the addresses and the father's names ?

depending on the type of building etc, it might be possible to check the head of household for the locations going back a few years..

Yeah shane. they are Patrick Reilly, 4 cramton quay and thomas O neill 7 Forbes lane.

CeannRua

you've probably seen this but just in case
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/9ae0350119719
The address on this record is 7 Forbes Lane and the sponsor is Mary Ann O'Neill.

samina

CeannRua wrote: »

you've probably seen this but just in case
http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/9ae0350119719
The address on this record is 7 Forbes Lane and the sponsor is Mary Ann O'Neill.

I hadnt seen this actually. Thank you

shanew

samina wrote: »

Yeah shane. they are Patrick Reilly, 4 cramton quay and thomas O neill 7 Forbes lane.

Unfortunately Forbes Lane is not listed in Thom's - based on the building returns on the census, it consisted of some small cottages -2 windows in front.

No sign of Reilly's at Crampton quay - maybe they lived in accommodation over, or behind, the business located there.

1894 : John Fagan, portmanteau & trunk manuf.

1884 : Owen Brothers, portmanteau warehouse

Crampton quay is close to SS. Michael & John so makes sense as the brides address, Forbes lane seems to have been further west adjacent to Grand Canal Harbour - close to the RC St. James.


S.

samina

shanew wrote: »

samina wrote: »

Yeah shane. they are Patrick Reilly, 4 cramton quay and thomas O neill 7 Forbes lane.

Unfortunately Forbes Lane is not listed in Thom's - based on the building returns on the census, it consisted of some small cottages -2 windows in front.

No sign of Reilly's at Crampton quay - maybe they lived in accommodation over, or behind, the business located there.

1894 : John Fagan, portmanteau & trunk manuf.

1884 : Owen Brothers, portmanteau warehouse

Crampton quay is close to SS. Michael & John so makes sense as the brides address, Forbes lane seems to have been further west adjacent to Grand Canal Harbour - close to the RC St. James.


S.

Thanks for checking Shane.
I do have Records of their son who was born at Forbes lane too. So I'm assuming that they lived with his family for a while perhaps. This child's baptism was at st Catherine's Meath street. Which I have checked but never thought to check st James. Thanks again

Mrs K

This might sound long winded.
Can you find the couple who were married in 1889 on the 1901 or 1911 census?
The census should give their ages. You could use this information to look for birth cert or baptism cert. Their birth Or baptism cert should give you mothers maiden name. If they were baptised in Dublin you might find their record in Irish genealogy.ie

What were the names of the couple who got married in 1889.

If they were 'full age' on their marriage cert you could hazard a guess they would be aged around 32 or older in 1901 census or 42 or older in 1911 census.
Census will allow you to enter an age and it will check for all records +:- 5 years of that age.
Also check for varations on spelling in many cases of 0' surnames the O' was dropped or added to a name so O'Neill could be just Neil and Reilly could become O'Reilly.
Or if you know when the 1889 couple died, their death certs would give their age at death again you could use this to find what year they were born to get birth or baptism records!

samina

Mrs K wrote: »

This might sound long winded.
Can you find the couple who were married in 1889 on the 1901 or 1911 census?
The census should give their ages. You could use this information to look for birth cert or baptism cert. Their birth Or baptism cert should give you mothers maiden name. If they were baptised in Dublin you might find their record in Irish genealogy.ie

What were the names of the couple who got married in 1889.

If they were 'full age' on their marriage cert you could hazard a guess they would be aged around 32 or older in 1901 census or 42 or older in 1911 census.
Census will allow you to enter an age and it will check for all records +:- 5 years of that age.
Also check for varations on spelling in many cases of 0' surnames the O' was dropped or added to a name so O'Neill could be just Neil and Reilly could become O'Reilly.
Or if you know when the 1889 couple died, their death certs would give their age at death again you could use this to find what year they were born to get birth or baptism records!

Hi mrs k

Just saw your post apologies. Yes I have them both on the census, there ages vary on both so I have 2 birth years for both. Unfortunately like I say the names are so common that it's hopeless, for example in 1862 there are 2 baptisms on irishgenealogy for one of the names. so even if I had an exact year I still cannot be sure it's the right person. Thank you for the help

dido2

Sometimes you can work forward too from potential records to see if there were anymore kids born to the same couple, costs a bit more but it can help...

I can't find my grandfathers birth cert but I did find his youngest siblings birth cert based on the name being a little bit different, and knowing my GF's address at time of marriage, are there any younger siblings that you may be able to find a birth cert for?