Luxobarge suggestions?

Sobanek

I'm actually starting this topic for a friend of mine.

He's looking to buy a nice luxobarge car.

What does he want?

First of all - the engine - he wants it to be over 2.5L, petrol or diesel - it doesn't matter.
He wants the car to present itself nicely in black colour. He also told me, his maximum budget is €5k. He's looking for cars from 1999 onwards.

No manual, he wants his car automatic.

Any suggestions?

If you need any other info, I'm happy to ask him.

What's been suggested so far:
- 2003 VW Phaeton : http://www.carzone.ie/search/Volkswagen/Phaeton/PHAETON-/201209207153454/advert?channel=CARS
- 2002 Lexus LS430 : http://www.carzone.ie/search/Lexus/LS430/stunning/2813287831680620/advert?channel=CARS
- 1998 BMW 750iL : http://www.driving.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=201211207364173
- 2002 BMW 735i : http://www.carzone.ie/search/BMW/7-Series/735I/201210207255997/advert?channel=CARS

MugMugs

Sobanek wrote: »

I'm actually starting this topic for a friend of mine.

He's looking to buy a nice luxobarge car.

What does he want?

First of all - the engine - he wants it to be over 2.5L, petrol or diesel - it doesn't matter.
He wants the car to present itself nicely in black colour. He also told me, his maximum budget is €5k. He's looking for cars from 1999 onwards.

No manual, he wants his car automatic.

Any suggestions?

If you need any other info, I'm happy to ask him.

Phaeton

Sobanek

MugMugs wrote: »

Phaeton

http://www.carzone.ie/search/Volkswagen/Phaeton/PHAETON-/201209207153454/advert?channel=CARS

It's nice, but a bit over his budget, I'm afraid.

I'll put this on the list anyway.

http://www.carzone.ie/search/Lexus/LS430/stunning/2813287831680620/advert?channel=CARS

Fizman

http://www.driving.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=201211207364173

BMW 750 IL.

5.4 V12

......and bulletproof too!

Granted it is a '98, but yes please!

Voodoomelon

Double glazed more like, doesn't know what he has. That's been for sale for ages, chance of a bargain maybe.

GavMan

735i 2002 - might fit the bill subject to the usual checks...

Anan1

Fizman wrote: »

BMW 750 IL.

5.4 V12

......and bulletproof too!

Granted it is a '98, but yes please!

I'd be pretty confident that the owner has mistaken double glazing for armoured glass.;)

maceocc2

The 750IL would be my choice but I think 4500 for it is a bit steep, they go a bit cheaper than that. A 96 reg. on donedeal recently sold for around 1750.

http://cars.donedeal.ie/for-sale/cars/3071748

bodun

Anan1 wrote: »

I'd be pretty confident that the owner has mistaken double glazing for armoured glass.;)

Well, it is in Limerick, so you never know!!!

langdang

Anan1 wrote: »

I'd be pretty confident that the owner has mistaken double glazing for armoured glass.;)

Well, it is Limerick citaay..

edit- an obvious cheap laugh, diminished further by being beaten to it... oh well

unkel

Jaguar XJ8

Matt Simis

MugMugs wrote: »

Phaeton

A 3.2litre V6 from a Golf isnt much of a Luxobarge engine. Afaik the first 2003 models were FWD too (hmm "like a Golf"), so they drive and turn woeful as well.

If you want a Phaeton, its V10TDI or W12 or go home. You can get a much better Audi A8/S8 quattro for the same money (older of course) as that 3.2 Phaeton.

Anan1

langdang wrote: »

Well, it is Limerick citaay..

edit- an obvious cheap laugh, diminished further by being beaten to it... oh well

As was I, by Voodoomelon!

ShaneMc2012

I'd get the 2002 BMW 7 Series, even if it does have a lot of mileage... But it only has a little more mileage than the other 7 Series, but 4 years newer!

-Edit-
That Lexus is hideous aswell..

langdang

Anan1 wrote: »

As was I, by Voodoomelon!

Naw, bodun beat me to a cheap laugh off Rimlick city.

I'm not really a BMW fan, but the E38 is just class. That would be my choice for a luxobarge.

shankespony

Lexus gs300 lovely looking car with reliability and a little different from your merc or BMW

ShadowHearth

A long shot - jaguar Xk or xkr?


+1 on e38 740i or 750il

Max Power1

ShadowHearth wrote: »

A long shot - jaguar Xk or xkr?

Lovely machines, even the 96-00 ones with the Nikasil issues (once fixed :P ) are a great GT cruiser.

Timeless looking, the older model look new even today

tossy

Matt Simis wrote: »

A 3.2litre V6 from a Golf isnt much of a Luxobarge engine. Afaik the first 2003 models were FWD too (hmm "like a Golf"), so they drive and turn woeful as well.
.

I agree 100% , although a 3.2 in that engine bay....there would be loads of room for a TT upgrade - 750bhp ? now thats a luxo-bullet!

-Corkie-

Get the Lexus and you will have a fantastic build quality and a great car to work on. I will be able to afford one soon enough..

conzy

An early E60 540i would be in budget. But is it luxurious or bargey enough?

anthony4335

What about an Audi A8

http://cars.donedeal.ie/for-sale/cars/2776949 or an S class

166man

I'd look for a minty 7-Series maybe 740i or the likes? Not a fan of those big Lexus LS430 yokes, not when a nice 7-series is an option.

Alfa 166 V6 maybe?

Big Nasty

Late E38 or D2 S8

Matt Simis

conzymaher wrote: »

An early E60 540i would be in budget. But is it luxurious or bargey enough?

IMO its a mid-size Saloon with a sporty overture, so its neither bargey or comfortable enough. Not to say its bad, just not the preferred BMW. I have a hovercraft lowered, rock hard suspension 540i 6sp manual e34 with M5 LSD, strut brace, purple paint job etc. Very much almost a track car (getting there!).. the thought of its successor being a luxobarge does not compute.

-Corkie-

anthony4335 wrote: »

What about an Audi A8

http://cars.donedeal.ie/for-sale/cars/2776949 or an S class

Early model A8's were not very reliable up until 05. The S class of that era is a pile of trouble.

dahamsta

Yerman had that 750il at €3750 (here's me asking about it on BMW-Driver in December) until someone pointed out to him that he was asking too little for it, and he got greedy and put it up to €6k. €5k would have been about right at the time. It sat at that for months, he's only just brought it back down to a more reasonable price. I disagree with previous posts about that though, I think it's pegged about right.

Dark colours over black leather are rare and sought after, and it's a late '98 so it was one of the first mid-model facelift cars. It's also a "Sport", which adds more desirable bits (sport steering wheel, alcantara headlining, shadowline trim). And the V12 is a much smoother car if you can afford the fuel -- power is essentially the same as the V8, but it has more torque which likely makes for more fun sleeper-style overtaking.

I'd take it in a heartbeat if yerman would take my 740 as a trade-in, but he doesn't seem to be in a mad rush with it, and he's probably right. Conversely though, I wouldn't touch the 735i or any early e65 with a barge pole. They're dirt cheap for a reason. They had lots of niggly problems, particularly with early iterations of iDrive; and although, like Nikasil on 90s cars, most of the problems are worked out by now, I don't think they're worth the hassle. Better to wait for the much more attractive facelift models imho.

I'd second the comments about the Phaeton and A8/S8 (although good S8s are like hen's teeth). I wouldn't bother with a GS, like the IS they always come across as an upmarket Corolla or Carina; they're a poor man's LS, and that's the Lexus to buy. Take heed of warning about the S class, the ones of that era rust like bejasus. And don't forget the venerable X308 Jaguar XJ, terrible rear legroom, but sure if you're driving it who cares? If he wants oomph for his money, a XJR'll put hairs on his chest.

adam

Matt Simis

dahamsta wrote: »

I'd second the comments about the Phaeton and A8/S8 (although good S8s are like hen's teeth). I wouldn't bother with a GS, like the IS they always come across as an upmarket Corolla or Carina; they're a poor man's LS, and that's the Lexus to buy. Take heed of warning about the S class, the ones of that era rust like bejasus.

Reminds me, its rarely mentioned but the Audi A8/S8 are all Aluminum bodies (ASF platform).. rust is not a problem and never will be!

Marcusm

Matt Simis wrote: »

A 3.2litre V6 from a Golf isnt much of a Luxobarge engine. Afaik the first 2003 models were FWD too (hmm "like a Golf"), so they drive and turn woeful as well.

If you want a Phaeton, its V10TDI or W12 or go home. You can get a much better Audi A8/S8 quattro for the same money (older of course) as that 3.2 Phaeton.

Does it not take 2 of those engines stitched together to get a 6L W12?

Matt Simis

Marcusm wrote: »

Does it not take 2 of those engines stitched together to get a 6L W12?

It sure does... ?

Sobanek

He's making up his mind: It's down to either a clean, nice E38 or an Audi A8.

He likes the V12 on the 7er, but says it's not really worth paying 6k for a car, just to pay another 6k in spendings every year, so he's probably gonna go for either a 740i or a D2 3.3 TDI.

Matt Simis

Sobanek wrote: »

He's making up his mind: It's down to either a clean, nice E38 or an Audi A8.

He likes the V12 on the 7er, but says it's not really worth paying 6k for a car, just to pay another 6k in spendings every year, so he's probably gonna go for either a 740i or a D2 3.3 TDI.

He not in Ireland then? The A8 D2 TDI was never sold in RHD.

How good or bad a yoke are these....

http://cars.donedeal.ie/for-sale/cars/3226057




04 audi a8 3.0diesel quattro

Sobanek

Matt Simis wrote: »

He not in Ireland then? The A8 D2 TDI was never sold in RHD.

He is in Ireland. Was it never sold in the RHD form? :pac:
Sorry, we're both from Poland :pac:.

Well, then the A8 is out of the picture (I guess)

Voodoomelon

Sobanek wrote: »

He's making up his mind: It's down to either a clean, nice E38 or an Audi A8.

He likes the V12 on the 7er, but says it's not really worth paying 6k for a car, just to pay another 6k in spendings every year, so he's probably gonna go for either a 740i or a D2 3.3 TDI.

If he thinks a 750 is less reliable than the 740 he's wrong. If anything, the V8s give more trouble than the V12s. And, its a 12+ year old gadget laden vehicle, both are going to be expensive to run regardless of engine size.

There's also not a whole lot in it in regards fuel consumption between the two.

Big Nasty

If going for a D2 A8 as opposed to S8 please tell him to at least make sure to get a quattro.

Voodoomelon

I'd love a Quattro A8, know squat about Audis though maintenance-wise. They scare me.

Big Nasty

Voodoomelon wrote: »

I'd love a Quattro A8, know squat about Audis though maintenance-wise. They scare me.

I'ld love a D2 S8 but my mechanic told me if I ever got one to find a new friend! :eek:

Matt Simis

MCMLXXV wrote: »

I'ld love a D2 S8 but my mechanic told me if I ever got one to find a new friend! :eek:

Your mechanic is a little girl then! Less complicated by a long shot than a 2004+ TDI A4. I dunno what to compare it to, but I dont see much if any difference between a V12 850CSi, I6 525i or the D2 S8. The Alfa I found harder and more irritating to work on that any of the German stuff. Ironically it proved to be a bit more reliable too.

Audis and BMW's share the same ZF gearboxes, Bosch ignition, fuel and Air Flow systems (I have an Audi Allroad fuel pump in my 540i), spark plugs etc. The general layout is very similar in the engine bar (bar the engine orientation of course). The biggest difference is the nose heavy Audi layout and the AWD drivetrain.

Big Nasty

Matt Simis wrote: »

Your mechanic is a little girl then! Less complicated by a long shot than a 2004+ TDI A4. I dunno what to compare it to, but I dont see much if any difference between a V12 850CSi, I6 525i or the D2 S8. The Alfa I found harder and more irritating to work on that any of the German stuff. Ironically it proved to be a bit more reliable too.

Audis and BMW's share the same ZF gearboxes, Bosch ignition, fuel and Air Flow systems (I have an Audi Allroad fuel pump in my 540i), spark plugs etc. The general layout is very similar in the engine bar (bar the engine orientation of course). The biggest difference is the nose heavy Audi layout and the AWD drivetrain.

I think it was more a case of him not wanting me on his doorstep every second month. To be fair high mileage Audis can get very expensive to maintain, much more so than any BMW I had.

Matt Simis

MCMLXXV wrote: »

I think it was more a case of him not wanting me on his doorstep every second month. To be fair high mileage Audis can get very expensive to maintain, much more so than any BMW I had.

My Audi S8 has near 190k miles and is on its 3rd gearbox, definite weak point but not really too hard to get swapped out (bought a used one for £480). Other than that, its the exact same as a BMW (or similar large powerful car); suspension bushings, diff mounts etc. Unlike a BMW however, it wont rust, making working on it much easier.

I just dont agree on all Audi's, there is a big difference between this NA V8 and the Turbo'd, steel chassis A4/S4/A6/S6, the A8/S8 is much better.

Sobanek

"How much more would a service be for the V12 than a V8?"

"What's the mpg difference between 750 and S8 in the real world? - Town, motorway mixed driving".

"Maintenance costs S8 vs 750"

"Reliability - S8 vs 750"

Voodoomelon

Matt can best answer your question, owning essentially both engines/cars.

To be honest if €5000 is his max budget and he isn't prepared to turn a spanner himself, i'd set aside a good €3000 a year to run either, with tax, insurance, tyres, servicing etc. Thats ex fuel.

E38 parts aren't cheaper either, as examples the discs and pads alone for a 750 will run you over €600. Tie rods are €100 a piece, centre link is €250, ABS sensors are €110, PDC sensors are €90, fuel filter is €50, transmission fluid is €25 a litre, two cabin filters €95, thermostat €90, window regulator €350+ etc

Go for it though.

Matt Simis

Sobanek wrote: »

1"How much more would a service be for the V12 than a V8?"

2"What's the mpg difference between 750 and S8 in the real world? - Town, motorway mixed driving".

3"Maintenance costs S8 vs 750"

4"Reliability - S8 vs 750"

Per point, IMO, based on concurrent ownership of 2x V8s (BMW 540i and Audi S8) and 1x 850CSi (which itself is like comparing an M5 to a 540i, but thats another topic):

1"How much more would a service be for the V12 than a V8?"
I wouldnt be paying BMW or Audi to service either car. That said:
The BMW M70 V12 is effectively 2x old M20 engines paired, it has 2 ECUs, 2 MAFs, 2 Air Filters, 2x Fuel Pumps and Filters etc. So in theory if you had to replace everything on both cars, these support parts would cost twice as much to do on this V12 vs a V8. In practice a standard maintenance is a bit more oil, one extra air filter and 4 more spark plugs, servicing is around EUR200 for all these things and EUR130 on the V8, at a very rough estimate.

Another quaint oddity is the V12 M70 (and S70, the M Version in the CSi) are both ancient engine designs, ie distributor ignition systems and OBD1 vs the modern COP system in both Audi and BMW V8s. This is a technical drawback, but makes them fairly dumbass easy to work on.


2"What's the mpg difference between 750 and S8 in the real world?
750i vs S8 is a hard and awkward comparison. The V12 750i has slightly more torque but the S8 is an S-tuned engine, it actually produces more BHP and revs much faster than the larger V12. Audi's big S cars are not cruisers, the 750i and to a lesser extent the 850i (non CSi) are. The S8 is quattro while the BMWs are of course RWD. In terms of throwing it about RWD is always more interesting and lively than AWD and in terms of MPG, the S8 (and A8) is utterly pants. 20mpg vs 25mpg on the 750i. A 740i (V8) makes this difference even larger.
Im sure both are very easy to drive in all situations, IMO the S8 feels like a smaller, tighter car due to its sports suspension and lightweight and basically fantastic Aluminium chassis. In snow and bad weather you can hurl the S8 (and A8 Quattro) around no problem, you simply will not be doing that in a BMW.

3"Maintenance costs S8 vs 750"
Comparing the S8 (and largely A8 quattro is the same) to the 750i is a bit of a wash. Maybe the S8 is more expensive having limited edition S-only brakes, suspension, gearbox, exhaust and diff (all different to the more common A8). Virtually everything in 750i is shared with the 740i baring the engine parts. A standard A8 would be comparable to a 740i, but I find getting BMW parts easier and cheaper than Audi. Also Ebay.co.uk, Ebay.de and Seekpart24.com (and tbh Micksgarage.ie and BMW-Driver.net) all become frequent sources of cheap parts. I kinda scavenge everything from anywhere at all.

4"Reliability - S8 vs 750"
Reliability, gearboxes on big Audi's are a bit of a sorepoint. Otherwise similar failing parts such as suspension, Oxygen Sensors, Vacuum lines, fuel lines, MAFs are IMO pretty much the same on both cars, unsurprising given we are talking about same era German cars using nearly the same parts.
The boon of the V12 design is that if any one of those doubled up components (in point 1 above) fails, you are left in limp mode which means it runs as an I6 engine, you wont be left stranded and it will still drive about rather well. 

I think owning any performance, decade+ old car will get expensive if you cannot do any maintenance yourself, but its hard for me to appreciate as I would rather try anything at all and see how I get on. Personally when I was looking for the S8 my preference and searching was: S8, 750i, 740i, A8 4.2 and thats it.
If I didnt have an 850CSi I might have bumped the 750i higher, but the utility of AWD is nice to have always available in the household.

The S8 is the combination of sporty and powerful character with big chassis I wanted.. though I would love to try the (LHD only) W12 A8 D2 to compare. My 850CSi is a cooler and more fun car to drive however.. obviously!

Francie Barrett

VW Phaeton for me.

Sobanek

He's gonna go for the BMW. Not the one in the carzone ad. He's gonna look for one in the UK. I'll keep you posted though if he gets it.

Atlantic Dawn

Sobanek wrote: »

He's gonna go for the BMW. Not the one in the carzone ad. He's gonna look for one in the UK. I'll keep you posted though if he gets it.

The VRT will be insane due to emissions, much better value here. Perhaps better spec options in UK but will be far more costly.

Voodoomelon

Max VRT i've seen on an E38 now is about €2300. But buying prices are higher in UK than here, plus that VRT, transportation, NCT etc. He'd want to be buying it for no more than £2000-£2500 to stay under €5000, which won't get you much.

That 750 here is fantastic value.

-Corkie-

Apologies for the hijack but I have been offered a supposedly mint 07 Ls 460. What would be a fair price to offer for it???

Big Nasty

-Corkie- wrote: »

Apologies for the hijack but I have been offered a supposedly mint 07 Ls 460. What would be a fair price to offer for it???

Cheapest on CZ / DD is asking €19,950.