Directors Of Services Costing €1m annually in Local Authorities

Chuck Stone

Toby Take a Bow wrote: »

How are the taxes referred to just in relation to the private sector? If you tax a private sector worker and a public sector worker the same rate, do they not pay the same tax?

The private sector generates revenue for the exchequer - the PS/CS is a cost to the tax payer.

So essentially taxes collected from private sector workers pays for the public sector/workers; I understand this is horribly reductive but on the whole it is more true than false.

sock puppet

micropig wrote: »

Any links?

I don't know of any reports into it however I do know that the civil service hire externally for senior positions such as PO, and anecdotally they aren't exactly getting the very best of what the private sector has to offer.

Dudess

Isn't there a freeze on recruitment for permanent positions? And isn't natural wastage in operation (i.e. non replacement of those who retire)?

sock puppet

Dudess wrote: »

Isn't there a freeze on recruitment for permanent positions? And isn't natural wastage in operation (i.e. non replacement of those who retire)?

Not entirely. Exceptions can be made if there's a need. This answer to a PQ in 2010 is pretty informative.


http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2010-05-25.889.0

Morlar

Dudess wrote: »

...I'm sparing with this word as I generally hate it, but... begrudgery definitely seems to be at the root of the public sector hate.

I think 'paying for it' is at the root of dissatisfaction with public sector expenditure.

If some Saudi trillionaire decided to fund our public sector for a laugh then you'd probably find criticism by the general public of Public sector expenditure would fall right off the radar. Begrudgery doesn't enter into it.

Milk & Honey

Freddie59 wrote: »

Seriously. Librarians? €106k a year? FFS.:mad:

You are talking about the top librarian in a county. Such a person must be qualified with degrees and have a considerable knowledge of the local history of the area they are working in. All county libraries have valuable heritage material which needs to be sourced and maintained. Many librarians are very pro active in the community. The Clare county library has made a massive amount of material available online for researchers. Librarians as a whole are underpaid. Someone who works their way up through the system will often be on a par with a university professor in terms of knowledge. In addition the Chief librarian will have to manage a large number of staff and a large budget. €106k is a pathetically small salary for this work.

Freddie59

AskMyChocolate wrote: »

Heh Freddie. Just a couple of points that I feel are worth making. Any independent study that has ever been done has concluded that senior staff in the public service are poorly paid when compared with their private sector counterparts. In the same way as they have always concluded that junior staff are better remunerated than their counterparts in the private sector.

Now,personally, I have no problem with this, as I think it's deplorable the way the disparity between senior staff and junior staff in the private sector has been allowed to balloon over the last forty years, but that's just a matter of personal ideology.

Simply put Freddie; you can't have it both ways. You have asked in several threads before for PS wages to be pegged to those in the private sector, and while this would certainly reduce pay at lower levels it would increase pay for senior PS workers, which this thread is about.

On the subject of senior librarians, do you imagine that the senior executives in BoI, AIB, VHI, ESB, O2 etc. in charge of account archival and records are on less than 80k a year. They aren't.

Choco.

Hello Choco.

Regardless of D's inference that you won't get a reply, here it is (even though I've made a detailed reply to her earlier comments which she herself has chosen to ignore).:rolleyes::)

The point that I am making -- consistently -- is that we cannot afford to continue to fund PS wages/"entitlements" at their current level. The Minister For Education had to spell this out to teachers (of all people) yesterday. The same teachers that complain about young teacers not getting work, while doing nothing about retired teachers (on a full pension) preventing this from happening by being allowed return to work. It is a complete farce.

I am also on record as being very vocal in my criticisms of the pay in the Baking Sector, 90% of which should not be trading today.

The two groups that you mention are the ones costing the State horrific amounts of money (€400m being borrowed WEEKLY to fund PS/CS/SW alone).

People in the Private Sector (myself included) are truly aghast at the deplorable positive discrimination being practiced with the aforementioned groups.

And as for Librarians being paid €106k per year? A Hospital Consultant in Germany is allowed earn a maximum of €96k per year. This person has people's lives in his/her hand. And we pay a LIBRARIAN €106k per year?:eek:

All that people are looking for is a fair crack of the whip. And that Government - and their employees - wake up to the financial Armageddon that is taking place around them - and us.

TwoShedsJackson

Freddie59 wrote: »

I am also on record as being very vocal in my criticisms of the pay in the Baking Sector, 90% of which should not be trading today.

Now it's not just the Public Sector getting it in the neck from Freddie, but the confectioners too!! :eek:

billybudd

Id hate be a ordinary decent and hardworking cc these days.

2ndcoming

Morlar wrote: »

I think 'paying for it' is at the root of dissatisfaction with public sector expenditure.

If some Saudi trillionaire decided to fund our public sector for a laugh then you'd probably find criticism by the general public of Public sector expenditure would fall right off the radar. Begrudgery doesn't enter into it.

I think you'll find that if the construction/banking sectors hadn't been allowed to bring the country to the brink of ruin nobody would be bothered recycling Sindo/Daily Mail articles with the same anti public service guff on a weekly basis around here anyway.

Gumbo

Heres the pay scale for a Senior Librarian with Dublin city council

1. 44849
2. 45954
3. 47289
4. 49797
5. 51294
1st LSI. 53157
2nd LSI. 55031 (After 11 years service)

Morlar

2ndcoming wrote: »

I think you'll find that if the construction/banking sectors hadn't been allowed to bring the country to the brink of ruin nobody would be bothered recycling Sindo/Daily Mail articles with the same anti public service guff on a weekly basis around here anyway.

If there is one single good thing to come out of our current economic situation it will be taxpayers taking notice of how their money is spent.

2ndcoming

So then you'll be deducting from the cost of that Senior Librarian that earns €106K per year the €29,732 tax they pay (based on them being the only working spouse in a marriage, excluding PRSI and USC) or €33,272 (based on them being single/ married with both spouses working, excluding PRSI and USC) seeing as that's just a contribution they make to their own wage.

You are deducting that right?

Morlar

2ndcoming wrote: »

So then you'll be deducting from the cost of that Senior Librarian that earns €106K per year the €29,732 tax they pay (based on them being the only working spouse in a marriage, excluding PRSI and USC) or €33,272 (based on them being single/ married with both spouses working, excluding PRSI and USC) seeing as that's just a contribution they make to their own wage.

You are deducting that right?

Why on earth would anyone do that ?

2ndcoming

Well if you pay their wages you can't count the portion they pay themselves as well, surely??

Morlar

2ndcoming wrote: »

Well if you pay their wages you can't count the portion they pay themselves as well, surely??

People who reside in this state, are in employment and avail of public services pay tax (actually whether or not they avail of public services). Public sector workers are not exempt from that. The issue here is how exactly that money is spent.

2ndcoming

Well for anyone, yourself included, who ever heard the words 'I pay their wages' uttered from their own lips and were not in fact talking about their personal employees but were in fact talking about the nurses, doctors, guards, firemen, welfare officers, teachers, etc who you need a hell of a lot more than they need you, just remember they also pay their own wages.

Freddie59

2ndcoming wrote: »

I think you'll find that if the construction/banking sectors hadn't been allowed to bring the country to the brink of ruin nobody would be bothered recycling Sindo/Daily Mail articles with the same anti public service guff on a weekly basis around here anyway.

Hmmm. Guff = pointing out the glaringly obvious. Which some don't want to hear.

Freddie59

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

Now it's not just the Public Sector getting it in the neck from Freddie, but the confectioners too!! :eek:

Freddie59

Morlar wrote: »

I think 'paying for it' is at the root of dissatisfaction with public sector expenditure.

In a nutshell.

AskMyChocolate

micropig wrote: »

Any links?



Private sector can do what they like, within the law. If people don't like it they leave. Taxpayers are not paying their wages.

If you meant


Yes it is



Senior level salaries should be capped at a reasonable level. You get job security instead. Taxpayers are paying your salaries




All are being paid too much, one does not justify the other. If we had to have capped the whole lot of them years ago and not let it get out of hand as we did, the country would be in a better position now. The celtic tiger has shown us that paying extremely high salaries does not attract the best people for the position, in fact we have a history of putting morons in extremely well paid and responsible positions.

And you don't think therein may lay the problem? Enjoy financing Mrs.Drumm's houses and her lifestyle, while you pay for her husband's sins and blame it on the public sector.

That forelock must be worn off you by now.

Choco

Freddie59

AskMyChocolate wrote: »

And you don't think therein may lay the problem? Enjoy financing Mrs.Drumm's houses and her lifestyle, while you pay for her husband's sins and blame it on the public sector.

That forelock must be worn off you by now.

Choco

The banking sector debt pales in comparison with the €20Bn being borrowed every year to finance PS pay and "entitlements".

hmmm

AskMyChocolate wrote: »

Heh Freddie. Just a couple of points that I feel are worth making. Any independent study that has ever been done has concluded that senior staff in the public service are poorly paid when compared with their private sector counterparts. In the same way as they have always concluded that junior staff are better remunerated than their counterparts in the private sector.

You've put your finger on the biggest problem in the PS wage structure. It isn't the small number of highly paid people where the problem lies, many of whom could get more in the private sector - it's the tens of thousands of administrators and bureaucrats who are being paid 40/50% more than they would ever get in the private sector.

Unfortunately it's easy for populist politicians to rail against the "overpaid fat cats", while ignoring the so-called lower paid who are costing us a fortune.

Freddie59

hmmm wrote: »

You've put your finger on the biggest problem in the PS wage structure. It isn't the small number of highly paid people where the problem lies, many of whom could get more in the private sector - it's the tens of thousands of administrators and bureaucrats who are being paid 40/50% more than they would ever get in the private sector.

And their European counterparts.

Freddie59

2ndcoming wrote: »

Well for anyone, yourself included, who ever heard the words 'I pay their wages' uttered from their own lips and were not in fact talking about their personal employees but were in fact talking about the nurses, doctors, guards, firemen, welfare officers, teachers, etc who you need a hell of a lot more than they need you, just remember they also pay their own wages.

i've highlighted the funny ones.:D And even the rest are tenuous at best.;)

And they pay a very tiny fraction of their own wages.........