Miss Universe has a little secret...

wonderfulname

tripe man wrote: »

A man being allowed into the Miss Universe competition is insanity, nothing less.

That would be fair insane all right, good thing they haven't done that so...

batistuta9 wrote: »

clarify the point, it couldn't have been any clearer

I asked you to clarify the necessity of the point, why you were making it, what you sought to achieve, given the leaning of the conversation at the time, not the point itself, I replied to that.

batistuta9

wonderfulname wrote: »

I asked you to clarify the necessity of the point, why you were making it, what you sought to achieve, given the leaning of the conversation at the time, not the point itself, I replied to that.

below is the post i quoted & replied to

Links234 wrote: »

*sigh*

are you seriously entertaining the idea that she somehow masterminded a situation where she knew she was going to get disqualified, just so she could cause a media stir? or as you put it earlier, just to troll? I don't even know how to respond to that on a serious level...

batistuta9 wrote: »

you cannot seriously think that she went and entered the competition with the thought that no one would bat an eyelid

she knew rightly what was going to happen & that it would cause a stir

i replied to this post as links234 seemed to think that there was absolutely no way that her & this situation could lead to a media stir, as they put it.

I find it incredibly difficult to understand how this person or anyone for that matter would not realise that there was a possibility of media attention and later give the two most plausible reasons why she would want the media's attention 1. to become famous or 2. raise awareness of TG people & everything that goes with it

this is a reason i made the point, this is not a typical black and white situation, there were obviously going to be ramifications to her entering the contest whatever the outcome of the initial application for the competition. people have to understand this

xsiborg

wonderfulname i really am trying to be as unbiased as i can, which is why i was trying to get across the point that just because she is transgendered does not mean she is incapable of manipulating her situation to gain notoriety and fame for herself, as opposed to the idea that she should be a role model for transgendered people.

i tried to say look at people like chastitiy bono, who actually DID grow up in the spotlight and how it took her enormous courage to transform from female to male, and what an inspiration and role model he is now for not just trans people but to all people.

i dont have all the answers either, but just for me i am intrinsically cynical anyway of the media as 99% of the time, it's just to get their name in the media, and the media dont care about their cause, the same with hiring a celebrity lawyer who only wants to get HER name in the media, when there are hundreds if not thousands more capable lawyers in the states that wouldnt have sought to try the case had there been one, in the court of public opinion.

i didnt mean either that she meant to take on donald trump as such, i just meant that he is the owner of the pageant and he with advice no doubt from his media team, invited her to rejoin the contest, effectively taking the wind out of her sails so to speak, while also avoiding any more negative publicity and a costly legal battle.

its true, i dont think the question of "born naturally female" would have come up before, and honestly i do think there was a bit of árse covering and spin going on there too, but now you do mention it, i am surprised they didnt discover it sooner as im now thinking in the background check they do on these women, would the lack of pre-op photos not surely have given them some indication that something was amiss or raised a few eyebrows! i dont think it's an eventuality they'd adequately prepared for tbh, as i dont think they ever thought it'd happen!

i get where you're coming from wonderfulname with the idea that she may have wanted to show that trans women could be just as beautiful as, well, the other contestants i suppose who were not transgender. but then it begs the question of encouraging dangerous medical procedures in the pursuit of the ultimate beauty, if you get me? as opposed to by all accounts what any transgendered person i've met has said is an incredibly painful and frightening experience to have to go through and they wouldnt wish it on anyone.

my point was also that these beauty pageants do nothing for women in general, whether they be transgender or not, and in my opinion it certainly isnt the right platform if you want to raise awareness of what it is to be transgendered as you are only focussing people's attention on the purely physical aspect of what it is to be transgender and not the person as a whole, effectively disregarding everything else but the superficial aspect of what it is to be transgendered.

i dont know what the future holds for this girl, and suffice to say that the media circus has moved on, it isnt entirely unlikely to assume though that she will fade into the ether, or maybe pop up on one of those godawful "theres something about miriam" tv shows that was on sky a while back, where contestants vie for her "love".

when i say her attitude, i just mean the whole way she went about it and the way it has now blown up into a media circus a la "look at the miss universe contestant who was really a man and how she fooled everybody" and we all have a giggle at the expense of transgendered people. that's the way it has unfortunately played out in my eyes anyway, whereas if she had actually gone about it the right way and campaigned for the rules to be changed so she COULD enter, she would have far more earned my respect and admiration. she may not have courted as much media attention though, nor had a celebrity lawyer so quick to want to defend her position, and who knows if any of the organisations that are backing her now, would have paid her any attention either.

in short i think she has set the cause of transgendered people back about twenty years as while she has garnered support and had the media's attention for a short while, she has also set herself up as a spectacle for the masses to riducule and point and laugh at, which for me is the most upsetting thing i guess really, as closer to home and away from the media spotlight, there are transgendered people who deal with this on a daily basis who will now be subjected to even further ridicule and derision.

The King of Moo

tripe man wrote: »

1. A man being allowed into the Miss Universe competition is insanity, nothing less. This just goes to show how malleable people's minds really are. 2. Could you imagine someone purposed this even 20 years ago? they'd be put in a mental home. But now, everything has to be politically correct towards anyone that could possibly be perceived as a minority, in order to push the 3. liberal fascist agenda in the Western world and do away with any traditional values people have left in them.

I wonder what kind of sick and twisted **** will be pushed into the mainstream 20 years from now? 4. Pedophilia? Zoophilia? It wouldn't surprise me..

1. She's a woman.

2. No, I can't, we've progressed since then thankfully.

3. There's no such thing.

4. Lol!!

krudler

tripe man wrote: »

A man being allowed into the Miss Universe competition is insanity, nothing less. This just goes to show how malleable people's minds really are. Could you imagine someone purposed this even 20 years ago? they'd be put in a mental home. But now, everything has to be politically correct towards anyone that could possibly be perceived as a minority, in order to push the liberal fascist agenda in the Western world and do away with any traditional values people have left in them.

I wonder what kind of sick and twisted **** will be pushed into the mainstream 20 years from now? Pedophilia? Zoophilia? It wouldn't surprise me..

so would people with all sorts of treatable conditions, thankfully we've moved along, its the 21st century, do try keep up. I hear they even allow women to vote and drive cars now, madness.

AngryBollix

Surely if its a good tranny you wont know the difference

davet82

krudler wrote: »

I hear they even allow women to vote and drive cars now, madness.

Don't even get me started on how wrong that is!

tripe man

The issue is the principle of it. If a man wants to dress up in women's clothing or mutilate his body so he can pretend in his mind he's a woman, then so be it as that's his choice to do so. But, he will never be a woman. The principle that whatever appears to be true is true as long as it appears to be so is a complete fallacy that carries with it potentially dire consequences. Humans need to uphold strong basic principles because without them there can't be any unchangeable rules and without rules there is chaos.

hooradiation

tripe man wrote: »

The issue is the principle of it. If a man wants to dress up in women's clothing or mutilate his body so he can pretend in his mind he's a woman, then so be it as that's his choice to do so. But, he will never be a woman. The principle that whatever appears to be true is true as long as it appears to be so is a complete fallacy that carries with it potentially dire consequences. Humans need to uphold strong basic principles because without them there can't be any unchangeable rules and without rules there is chaos.

You heard it here first!
Transgender Miss universe contestants will bring about the collapse of civilisation.
Thank god we were warned in time.

jive

I'm all for equality but you have to draw the line somewhere. This is basically a competition in which someone who has transitioned can now enter under their 'new' gender. If this were to happen for sporting events it would be a complete shambles. I don't think plastic surgery should be allowed in beauty contests but then again I don't really care. I suppose if they allow plastic surgery and therefore inanimate objects to enter then they may as well include transgenders and anything else that wants to enter.

I'm curious as to what transgenders (or those involved with transgenders) think about allowing them to enter sporting events? Personally I don't think it is fair and it shouldn't be allowed.

Pherekydes

jive wrote: »

I'm all for equality...

No, you're not.

This is basically a competition in which someone who has transitioned can now enter under their 'new' gender.

Yes, they're the [new] rules. If you bothered with the previous 461 posts you'd see a goodly portion of them address these facts.

If this were to happen for sporting events it would be a complete shambles.

If you bothered to read some links that were posted in the previous 461 posts you'd see that this is already covered by many sports bodies.

I suppose if they allow plastic surgery and therefore inanimate objects to enter then they may as well include transgenders and anything else that wants to enter.

A person who has plastic surgery is still a person.

I'm curious as to what transgenders (or those involved with transgenders) think about allowing them to enter sporting events? Personally I don't think it is fair and it shouldn't be allowed.

It is, though.

Like your sidekick above, much of what you write is tripe, man. You, and others like you, are not just uneducated, but uneducable.

krudler

tripe man wrote: »

The issue is the principle of it. If a man wants to dress up in women's clothing or mutilate his body so he can pretend in his mind he's a woman, then so be it as that's his choice to do so. But, he will never be a woman. The principle that whatever appears to be true is true as long as it appears to be so is a complete fallacy that carries with it potentially dire consequences. Humans need to uphold strong basic principles because without them there can't be any unchangeable rules and without rules there is chaos.

it was a basic principal since biblical times that slaves were ok, women were inferior and the earth was flat, but we copped on.

you're talking like if this is allowed there'll be an outbreak of transsexuals or something, people will still be born with gender issues, it'll just be easier for them to be accepted. your life will affected in NO way whatsoever.

davet82

Is TG a fully recognised condition in medicine not just legally? Anyone clear that one up for me?

Just out of a matter of interest would anybody have a problem sharing a locker/shower rooms in a gym with a TG? (I’m just wondering if the issue applies outside contests/sporting events)

prinz

I'll leave it up to the relevant parties in charge of the Miss Universe brand to allow whoever the hell they want into that load of tripe.

G.K.

jive wrote: »

I'm all for equality but you have to draw the line somewhere. This is basically a competition in which someone who has transitioned can now enter under their 'new' gender. If this were to happen for sporting events it would be a complete shambles. I don't think plastic surgery should be allowed in beauty contests but then again I don't really care. I suppose if they allow plastic surgery and therefore inanimate objects to enter then they may as well include transgenders and anything else that wants to enter.

I'm curious as to what transgenders (or those involved with transgenders) think about allowing them to enter sporting events? Personally I don't think it is fair and it shouldn't be allowed.

We can enter sporting events...

davet82

prinz wrote: »

I'll leave it up to the relevant parties in charge of the Miss Universe brand to allow whoever the hell they want into that load of tripe.

:mad: Blasphemy!! :mad:

jive

Pherekydes wrote: »

No, you're not.

Yes, they're the [new] rules. If you bothered with the previous 461 posts you'd see a goodly portion of them address these facts.

If you bothered to read some links that were posted in the previous 461 posts you'd see that this is already covered by many sports bodies.

A person who has plastic surgery is still a person.

It is, though.

Like your sidekick above, much of what you write is tripe, man. You, and others like you, are not just uneducated, but uneducable.

I am for equality. Explain to me how I'm not? Because I'm against having people in a competition who have a hugely influential genetic advantage due to their gender?

I'm not reading 31 pages of 'witty' after hours responses lmao. Provide the links if you want, if not, i'm not bothered.

A person who has plastic surgery is still a person, yes. A person who has plastic surgery to improve themselves aesthetically and then enters a beauty pageant based primarily on aesthetics should not be allowed, understand? Like PEDs aren't allowed in sports, plastic surgery shouldn't be allowed in competitions based primarily on aesthetics.

What do you mean it is? Care to elaborate? It's not fair for reasons I've described above.

Despite your condescending tone I think you will find that I am very well educated. Congrats on your use of the word uneducable, it really topped off what was on the whole a pretentious post. Well done to you.

G.K. wrote: »

We can enter sporting events...

I'm curious as to which? There are surely rigid rules governing this? Say if I was to go from male --> female but still attained most of my muscle mass (let's say I didn't use spirolactone) would I be allowed to compete with women at the olympics for example? (in b4 Pherekydes calls me ignorant for being inquisitive)

edit; i found the policy

three main requirements for both MTF and FTM trans athletes:

They must have had gender reassignment surgery
They must have legal recognition of their assigned gender
They must have at least two years of hormone therapy

Now excuse me for being insensitive (obviously having an opinion which in anyway impedes on transgenders makes me against equality) but it's retarded. It's totally unfair on female competitors and maybe even male competitors (I don't know what dosages FTM take).

BlueSmoker

davet82 wrote: »

Is TG a fully recognised condition in medicine not just legally? Anyone clear that one up for me?

Just out of a matter of interest would anybody have a problem sharing a locker/shower rooms in a gym with a TG? (I’m just wondering if the issue applies outside contests/sporting events)

Yes it is, it used to be considered a mental illness, but I think some posted here that medically it isn't considered that, it is known medically as Gender Identity Disorder, or Gender Dysphoria, as far as I know.

conorhal

Pffft* Who cares, men have long since ceased watching Miss World and Miss universe (we've shifted our viewership over to the Lingerie Bowl)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6e5TWUHEW2I&feature=related

Those two 'competitions' only really have an audience that consists of shrieking queens and frumpy middle aged women dreaming of their days as the homecoming queen.

BlueSmoker

jive wrote: »

I am for equality. Explain to me how I'm not? Because I'm against having people in a competition who have a hugely influential genetic advantage due to their gender?

I'm not reading 31 pages of 'witty' after hours responses lmao. Provide the links if you want, if not, i'm not bothered.

A person who has plastic surgery is still a person, yes. A person who has plastic surgery to improve themselves aesthetically and then enters a beauty pageant based primarily on aesthetics should not be allowed, understand? Like PEDs aren't allowed in sports, plastic surgery shouldn't be allowed in competitions based primarily on aesthetics.

What do you mean it is? Care to elaborate? It's not fair for reasons I've described above.

Despite your condescending tone I think you will find that I am very well educated. Congrats on your use of the word uneducable, it really topped off what was on the whole a pretentious post. Well done to you.




I'm curious as to which? There are surely rigid rules governing this? Say if I was to go from male --> female but still attained most of my muscle mass (let's say I didn't use spirolactone) would I be allowed to compete with women at the olympics for example? (in b4 Pherekydes calls me ignorant for being inquisitive)

You really haven't read this thread have you? Because if you had you would have found the answer to most if not all your questions.

jive

BlueSmoker wrote: »

You really haven't read this thread have you? Because if you had you would have found the answer to most if not all your questions.

No, I already said I didn't. I only had one question

G.K.

jive wrote: »

I'm curious as to which? There are surely rigid rules governing this? Say if I was to go from male --> female but still attained most of my muscle mass (let's say I didn't use spirolactone) would I be allowed to compete with women at the olympics for example? (in b4 Pherekydes calls me ignorant for being inquisitive)

I'm not as sure of the details as say Links is, but the olympics requires 2 years of hormonal treatment, and I assume that an androgen blocker would fall under this. Most trans women would use a blocker such as Spiro anyway, to ensure Estrogen isn't negated by Testosterone, so in most cases you will have the reduction of muscle mass to female levels anyway.