Why can't school holidays be shorter

I Heart Internet

Without having a dig at teachers or anyone else in the public sector, I'd like to suggest that we shorten the school holidays.

Everyone - primary and secondary get the full month of August off (perhaps 3rd level degrees could also be condensed?).

This would:

- Increase teaching time for students
- Increase the productivity of school buildings and other assets
- Increase the productivity of teachers themselves
- Increase productivity of a section of parents during the summer months (childcare, etc)

What are the downsides to this idea??

- More expensive holidays during the month of August?
- any more??

SunnyDub1

Totally agree
Children/students are spending more time out of school then they are in school :rolleyes:

who the fug

Better still get them kids working, cheap child labour is what we need to compete with China.

The average child will have 12 years of long holidays before entering the workforce and scrimping and saving for their two weeks in the summer.

Let them have their holdiays and childhood, which is more important than pounds shillings and pence

seamus

I Heart Internet wrote: »

- Increase teaching time for students

Is this necessarily a good thing?

- Increase the productivity of school buildings and other assets

As well as increase the overall cost of running the school buildings. There are ways of making the buildings more productive without necessarily keeping the kids in longer - renting it out to local businesses, classes, etc.

- Increase the productivity of teachers themselves

Really? Unless you extend the curriculum, then all you're really doing is giving teachers more time in which to cover the material. Which would seem to me would make them less productive overall

- Increase productivity of a section of parents during the summer months (childcare, etc)

To a certain extent the economy relies on having a subset of adults taken up minding their children during the summer. If you keep the kids in for an extra month (for example), then you basically have to find another months' work for a few hundred thousand parents who might otherwise be off work minding the children.

What are the downsides to this idea??
- More expensive holidays during the month of August?
- any more??

I place limited importance on keeping children in school doing typical learning for as long as possible. I feel that for children, time off playing games and having fun with their friends is as important, if not more important, than time spent reading books and learning in school. There has to be a balance.

There is no doubt a tipping point where the number of hours spent in a school environment becomes less productive, then focussing the time better and giving the children more time off to enjoy themselves.

Certainly my experience of school is that the exact same material could easily have been covered in 50-75% of the time. And if they scrapped time-wasting exercises like religion and such, you could hand over that time to more productive things like P.E. and practical art and science.

mikemac1

Back in my day I spent my summers helping the men for silage season and then doing it all again for hay

Stacking the square bales in the fields and there was a special way to do it, you had to have the knots facing down and on the outside though I never actually learned why.
Anyone know?

I suppose a while back the children was realy needed for farm work.
A bad summer means a bad year, a lot of pressure and stress involved.
God knows it's liable to start raining any minute :rolleyes:

Doesn't matter anymore but OP asked for reasons and that's mine

Logical Fallacy

I don't have a huge issue with kids having some time to be kids I have to say.

_LilyRose_

*snort*

Good luck proposing that to teachers.

yeppydeppy

Extend all their holidays - it makes the commute to work far easier.

Gee Bag

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

I don't have a huge issue with kids having some time to be kids I have to say.

Couldn't argue with that,

But I do have a serious problem with grossly overpaid teachers sitting on their holes for months of holidays while getting paid. Teachers whining about cuts in their pay because it is not fair on the children. Teachers not being sacked if they are utterly incompetent ( I heard one of their union monkeys the other day claiming there is no such thing as a bad teacher!) etc., etc.

Haelium

Many Asian countries(Especially Japan) have immature kids because they don't have time to be kids.

Unfortunately, we're not robots yet, our children can't just be packed into a place to learn all day every day, they need a chance to go out into the world and learn **** for themselves before they're adults.

gustavo

SunnyDub1 wrote: »

Totally agree
Children/students are spending more time out of school then they are in school :rolleyes:

If only they'd spent as much time in school as you

GetWithIt

The spuds need picking, the turf needs cutting and hay needs to be brought in.

I believe those are the actual reasons.

Oh, and dances at the crossroads.

ejmaztec

At the moment we pay to have kids taught in Ireland so that they can emigrate and get jobs overseas, so all kids should be sent abroad for their education in the first place.

The government might as well do a proper job of de-population instead of pissing about with half-hearted attempts.

I Heart Internet

Haelium wrote: »

Many Asian countries(Especially Japan) have immature kids because they don't have time to be kids.

Unfortunately, we're not robots yet, our children can't just be packed into a place to learn all day every day, they need a chance to go out into the world and learn **** for themselves before they're adults.

Are schools not part of the world?

I did say they could have all of August off. And Christmas and Easter holidays. And (at least) 2 in every 7 days off in the rest of the year. And they can finish as 3/4 pm in the afternoon. They can play and be kids then can't they?

Owen_S

OP you should write to the Daily Mail to discuss these views.

I Heart Internet

Owen_S wrote: »

OP you should write to the Daily Mail to discuss these views.

I did. They published it under the headline:

"Now teachers claim they need lengthy summer holidays for "essential relaxation""

When it comes to teacher's unions, the headlines write themselves.

blackwhite

mikemac1 wrote: »

Stacking the square bales in the fields and there was a special way to do it, you had to have the knots facing down and on the outside though I never actually learned why.
Anyone know?

Knots facing in can get caught up in the rope/twine on the bales next to it. Knots facing out means less tangles, and less chance of twine getting ripped when you move the bale beside it

touts

GetWithIt wrote: »

The spuds need picking, the turf needs cutting and hay needs to be brought in.

I believe those are the actual reasons.

Oh, and dances at the crossroads.

You are correct. The summer holidays are so long because that was the time kids were needed to help out on family farms. Similar with the early finish to the school day. Kids needed to be home in time for chores (milking the cows etc). If they were not allowed off their parents wouldn't send them to learn that new fangled readin & writin stuff.

It was an economic necessity back then and economic necessities change but the teachers have realised they are onto a good thing so they claim stress and all sorts of stuff as a justification for why they need to work so little.

I believe the best thing for the economy would be for schools to be open from 8:00am to 6:00pm. That way parents could drop their kids off before and after work. Summer holidays should be shortened to 4 weeks (you kind of need that time for any painting and other jobs around what are quite large buildings). Christmas holidays should be a week with only bank holidays on top of that. Basically that brings them in line with the work pattern of the private sector parents other than the Four weeks in the summer but you need that (plus 1wk at Christmas) to allow Teachers have the standard 21-25 days holidays a year most other sectors have. No doubt some parents will protest even about the 4 weeks and having to find baby sitters for that period but it will be a small minority who won't have a grandparent/aunt/uncle/relative/friend/neighbour willing to help out.

Lord Ned Stark

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Are schools not part of the world?

I did say they could have all of August off. And Christmas and Easter holidays. And (at least) 2 in every 7 days off in the rest of the year. And they can finish as 3/4 pm in the afternoon. They can play and be kids then can't they?

I'm really not sure if your serious tbh you know they give homework and then there is the leaving cert and junior cert to study for ? I'm on Easter *holidays* and have about 6 hours of homework and study to do everyday . Iv worked solid for basically 2 years now for the Leaving Cert and all *holidays* have been used for study and homework except summer last year where I needed to rest and not stress about school

seamus

touts wrote: »

I believe the best thing for the economy would be for schools to be open from 8:00am to 6:00pm.

Do you have any studies or figures to back up this belief that putting kids in school for 10 hours a day for most of the year would be beneficial to the economy?

If that was the case, surely we'd be better off just putting kids into boarding schools until they're 18 and be done with it?

kraggy

touts wrote: »

GetWithIt wrote: »

The spuds need picking, the turf needs cutting and hay needs to be brought in.

I believe those are the actual reasons.

Oh, and dances at the crossroads.

You are correct. The summer holidays are so long because that was the time kids were needed to help out on family farms. Similar with the early finish to the school day. Kids needed to be home in time for chores (milking the cows etc). If they were not allowed off their parents wouldn't send them to learn that new fangled readin & writin stuff.

It was an economic necessity back then and economic necessities change but the teachers have realised they are onto a good thing so they claim stress and all sorts of stuff as a justification for why they need to work so little.

I believe the best thing for the economy would be for schools to be open from 8:00am to 6:00pm. That way parents could drop their kids off before and after work. Summer holidays should be shortened to 4 weeks (you kind of need that time for any painting and other jobs around what are quite large buildings). Christmas holidays should be a week with only bank holidays on top of that. Basically that brings them in line with the work pattern of the private sector parents other than the Four weeks in the summer but you need that (plus 1wk at Christmas) to allow Teachers have the standard 21-25 days holidays a year most other sectors have. No doubt some parents will protest even about the 4 weeks and having to find baby sitters for that period but it will be a small minority who won't have a grandparent/aunt/uncle/relative/friend/neighbour willing to help out.

When do teachers plan?
Are teachers just glorified baby-sitters to you?
How do you suggest teachers keep students occupied for 10 hours?
What do you suggest the children eat to sustain them for 10 hours. 16 sandwiches and 12 bananas?

Why should children be cared for by people other than their families?

I'd like to see you attempt to keep a class full of 6 years engaged and then educate them for 5 minutes never mind 10 hours.

I wonder how people as ignorant and presumptuous as you get on in this world.

I Heart Internet

Lord Ned Stark wrote: »

I'm really not sure if your serious tbh you know they give homework and then there is the leaving cert and junior cert to study for ? I'm on Easter *holidays* and have about 6 hours of homework and study to do everyday . Iv worked solid for basically 2 years now for the Leaving Cert and all *holidays* have been used for study and homework except summer last year where I needed to rest and not stress about school

Fair play. Welcome to the adult world. From the sounds of it you'll do great in the leaving.

My original point still reamins - Why can't summer holidays be shorter?

woodchuck

Whatever about primary and secondary schools, I don’t think the summer holidays should be shortened for third levels. I always needed the summer to work and build up a bit of money to help me through the academic year. I also did a placement to help with my career.

And yes I know there are less jobs around these days, but a lot of students still go on J1s too which is a great experience that they shouldn’t be denied if they can afford it.

You really don't have time to do anything productive with only one month off.
One month = end up sitting on your h*le
~3 months = get a summer job or live and work abroad

I Heart Internet

kraggy wrote: »

I wonder how people as ignorant and presumptuous as you get on in this world.

Teachers must have failed to teach it out of him!

4zn76tysfajdxp

Lord Ned Stark wrote: »

I'm really not sure if your serious tbh you know they give homework and then there is the leaving cert and junior cert to study for ? I'm on Easter *holidays* and have about 6 hours of homework and study to do everyday . Iv worked solid for basically 2 years now for the Leaving Cert and all *holidays* have been used for study and homework except summer last year where I needed to rest and not stress about school

Man, once you enter the workforce you have to work eight hours a day, easter holidays and lengthy summer holidays become a distant memory and sometimes you have to bring work home with you or work weekends. Instead of stressing about school, you worry about money. Constantly. There'll be days when you have to choose between paying the rent or eating or having to get a household appliance repaired. Not whether or not you'll get into the "right course after school omg"

blackwhite

blackwhite wrote: »

Knots facing in can get caught up in the rope/twine on the bales next to it. Knots facing out means less tangles, and less chance of twine getting ripped when you move the bale beside it

I was told it was because of the way the baler packed the hay.

Knots down and out meant that any rain or moisture would run off the bale like a thatch.

Putting it upside down would cause the rain to run into the bale.

shopaholic01

Why doesn't everyone just stop having children???

Problem solved

stripysocks85

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

I don't have a huge issue with kids having some time to be kids I have to say.

Finally, a bit of sense in this thread.

Sometimes I really despise AH. It seems to be a freeway to set up threads constantly about the same thing - Public Sector bashing [mostly teacher bashing] & anti - fat threads!

Yawn.

phasers

God how old are you? Let children have their Summer holidays ffs! Did you not enjoy having the Summer off when you were young?

Although to be honest I think you're a troll.

stripysocks85

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Teachers must have failed to teach it out of him!

Well they certainly failed at something!!!!!!!!!

Freddie59

Gee Bag wrote: »

Couldn't argue with that,

But I do have a serious problem with grossly overpaid teachers sitting on their holes for months of holidays while getting paid. Teachers whining about cuts in their pay because it is not fair on the children. Teachers not being sacked if they are utterly incompetent ( I heard one of their union monkeys the other day claiming there is no such thing as a bad teacher!) etc., etc.

Annnnnnnnnd: teachers allowing (recently) retired teachers to prevent newly-qualified teachers from accessing employment by returning to work after retirement. Only in Ireland.:rolleyes:

Caliden

England seem to do alright and their summer holidays are only for 6-7 weeks

ScumLord

I don't see any point in more school, the schooling system is a failure in my opinion so more failure isn't going to help anyone. It will cost the state more keeping these places open and kids could learn much more valuable lessons outside of the school system during the summer.

stripysocks85

Gee Bag wrote: »

Couldn't argue with that,

But I do have a serious problem with grossly overpaid teachers sitting on their holes for months of holidays while getting paid. Teachers whining about cuts in their pay because it is not fair on the children. Teachers not being sacked if they are utterly incompetent ( I heard one of their union monkeys the other day claiming there is no such thing as a bad teacher!) etc., etc.

Your username is quite fitting.

seamus

I Heart Internet wrote: »

My original point still reamins - Why can't summer holidays be shorter?

That's not a point, it's a question.

And you've not really demonstrated properly why they should be shorter, except for some misplaced idea that it's better to have teachers doing pointless busy work than taking holidays.

Here's a better question - why do we pay teachers for a full year's work? Surely it would be better to pro-rate them on the basis of a 9-month work year (paid over 12 months) and allow them the opportunity to earn more during their holiday time? We could do things like insist that referendums and local elections are only held in the summer, and teachers can do that work. And extra curricular activities, lots of them.

SEPT 23 1989

Ailani Plump Gambler wrote: »

Man, once you enter the workforce you have to work eight hours a day, easter holidays and lengthy summer holidays become a distant memory and sometimes you have to bring work home with you or work weekends. Instead of stressing about school, you worry about money. Constantly. There'll be days when you have to choose between paying the rent or eating or having to get a household appliance repaired. Not whether or not you'll get into the "right course after school omg"

Don't scare the lad:D

partyatmygaff

touts wrote: »

I believe the best thing for the economy would be for schools to be open from 8:00am to 6:00pm. That way parents could drop their kids off before and after work.

School =/= Creche

A school is a place of learning.

Summer holidays should be shortened to 4 weeks (you kind of need that time for any painting and other jobs around what are quite large buildings). Christmas holidays should be a week with only bank holidays on top of that. Basically that brings them in line with the work pattern of the private sector parents other than the Four weeks in the summer but you need that (plus 1wk at Christmas) to allow Teachers have the standard 21-25 days holidays a year most other sectors have. No doubt some parents will protest even about the 4 weeks and having to find baby sitters for that period but it will be a small minority who won't have a grandparent/aunt/uncle/relative/friend/neighbour willing to help out.

All you care about is increasing working hours for teachers regardless of how much actual benefit that would give in terms of quality of education. Your motive is quite plain, you don't care about education. All you want is for teachers to work longer hours.

Atomicjuicer

We waste our lives in institutions.

Copy France in this regard I reckon - lets limit the working hours so people can live!

I've spent the vast majority of my waking life in crèche/primary school/secondary school/third level and have been working 9-5 for years.

What's the point???

When do we get to just relax a bit?

stripysocks85

I'm a teacher, so I obviously DETEST anti teacher threads, but I will make this point -

EVERYONE had the opportunity to be a teacher. So, why didn't you? If it's so damn easy, YOU DO IT!

shopaholic01

seamus wrote: »

That's not a point, it's a question.

And you've not really demonstrated properly why they should be shorter, except for some misplaced idea that it's better to have teachers doing pointless busy work than taking holidays.

Here's a better question - why do we pay teachers for a full year's work? Surely it would be better to pro-rate them on the basis of a 9-month work year (paid over 12 months) and allow them the opportunity to earn more during their holiday time? We could do things like insist that referendums and local elections are only held in the summer, and teachers can do that work. And extra curricular activities, lots of them.

Eh, that's the case already;)

alexsmith

school is a place where your thought that getting a successful grade is better than learning.

the things you learn in school are how to get a good grade,and skip the learning process.

Jess16

I'd love to know what college all the self-appointed education experts here graduated from

SEPT 23 1989

stripysocks85 wrote: »

I'm a teacher, so I obviously DETEST anti teacher threads, but I will make this point -

EVERYONE had the opportunity to be a teacher. So, why didn't you? If we have it so easy, and get paid to sit on our lardy arses with loads of money, come join us. No really. If it's so damn easy, YOU DO IT!

Those who can, do; those who can't, teach

seamus

shopaholic01 wrote: »

Eh, that's the case already;)

When I say "pro-rate" I mean, "Compared to averages", I'm aware that the justification at the moment is that "we only get paid for our nine months"
Simple things such as benchmarking a teacher's salary against the national average - let's say a starting teacher get's pro-rated against the national average wage.

So if the national average is €30k, a starting teacher gets paid 75% of that (€22.5k) over 12 months. He then has the option of working his downtime to earn more.

Pay increases are then awarded on the basis of performance, but still benchmarked against the average, so the next year he gets a raise to 1.1 "averages" which will give him take-home of 24,750. If the national average wage drops, every teacher's salary drops in response.

In reality, all public sector/civil service/politician salaries should be linked to the national average so there's no faffing over whinging unions and greedy increments. If economic output drops, the entire public service wage bill drops automatically without strikes or arguments and other bull****. If it improves, the wage bill does too. It's just common bloody sense.

saa

GetWithIt wrote: »

The spuds need picking, the turf needs cutting and hay needs to be brought in.

Yep we'll put all the kids and staff on internships doing that,
we're all in this together.

-R. Bruton.
xoxox

stripysocks85

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Those who can, do; those who can't, teach

The teacher creates all other professions.

Lawrence1895

Compared with Germany, kids have it relatively easy in Ireland:
10.5 weeks holidays in total (1.5 over Easter, 6 during the summer, 1 in autumn, 2 over Christmas/New Year).
And schools start at 8, instead of 9 in the morning.

Parents/teacher meetings are usually done after school, I guess, teachers are working a bit longer in Germany, too.

Logical Fallacy

Lars1916 wrote: »

Compared with Germany, kids have it relatively easy in Ireland:
10.5 weeks holidays in total (1.5 over Easter, 6 during the summer, 1 in autumn, 2 over Christmas/New Year).
And schools start at 8, instead of 9 in the morning.

Parents/teacher meetings are usually done after school, I guess, teachers are working a bit longer in Germany, too.

I thought the school day finished earlier in Germany as well?

stripysocks85

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

I thought the school day finished earlier in Germany as well?

[From Wikipedia]

School usually starts between 7.30 a.m. and 8:15 a.m. and can finish as early as 12; instruction in lower classes almost always ends before lunch. In higher grades, however, afternoon lessons are very common and periods may have longer gaps without teacher supervision between them. Ordinarily, afternoon classes are not offered every day and/or continuously until early evening, leaving pupils with large parts of their afternoons free of school; some schools (Ganztagsschulen), however, offer classes or mainly supervised activities throughout the afternoons in order to offer supervision of the pupils rather than an increase in teaching. Afternoon lessons can continue until 6 o'clock.

Depending on school, there are breaks of 5 to 10 minutes after each period. There is no lunch break as school usually finishes before 1:30 for junior school. However, at schools that have "Nachmittagsunterricht" (= afternoon classes) ending after 1:30 there's sometimes a lunch break of 45 to 90 minutes, though many schools lack any special break in general. Some schools that have regular breaks of 5 minutes between periods have additional 15 or 20 minute breaks after the second and fourth period.

Gee Bag

stripysocks85 wrote: »

Your username is quite fitting.

Wow, never heard that one before. Hope your not teaching creative writing.

token101

I agree with the OP. I remember being on holidays and hating playing football and crab fishing and just wishing I could be at school learning long division and reading about Pól Péist's latest pointless adventure.

And we already have child labour in the country, it's called potato/daffodil picking. And it's the best f***ing craic ever The Pakistani and Chinese kids could take a leaf from our books and learn to stitch my runners with dedication