Why can't school holidays be shorter

Coriolanus

No. I like the traffic better when the kids are off. Long summer holidays have probably prevented road rage related homicide over the years.

micropig

Nevore wrote: »

No. I like the traffic better when the kids are off. Long summer holidays have probably prevented road rage related homicide over the years.

The traffic might be...but I'd rather that than gangs of kids hanging around unsupervised, up to mischief and getting themselves in to trouble

ash23

Fear_an_tarbh wrote: »

Of course not, we don't view any students as being in school to 'perform'. I don't even know what that means, I presume the poster who originally used that term meant achieve high grades in state-run assessments.

They are not there to 'perform', they are there to have their learning needs met, if the special educational need is mild, then academic achievement might be the learning need, if the SEN is severe, then the learning need might be located within civic and social development, or perhaps personal and practical skills.

We need to move away from viewing our students as pawns who will 'perform' for us.

Um, I wasn't talking about the students performance. I was talking about the teachers performance.
In my workplace my performance is measured by the work I do, my attendance, my productivity, my accuracy, my demeanour and my attitude etc. Same should apply to teachers.
Assuming that can only be measured by how children perform in standardised testing was your assumption but totally not where I was going with it.

Coriolanus

micropig wrote: »

Nevore wrote: »

No. I like the traffic better when the kids are off. Long summer holidays have probably prevented road rage related homicide over the years.

The traffic might be...but I'd rather that than gangs of kids hanging around unsupervised, up to mischief and getting themselves in to trouble

I don't see that. Because I work. Thus my comments on the traffic.

micropig

Nevore wrote: »

I don't see that. Because I work. Thus my comments on the traffic.

You work 24/7?

omg a kitty

I Heart Internet wrote: »

Without having a dig at teachers or anyone else in the public sector, I'd like to suggest that we shorten the school holidays.

Everyone - primary and secondary get the full month of August off (perhaps 3rd level degrees could also be condensed?).

This would:

- Increase teaching time for students
- Increase the productivity of school buildings and other assets
- Increase the productivity of teachers themselves
- Increase productivity of a section of parents during the summer months (childcare, etc)

What are the downsides to this idea??

- More expensive holidays during the month of August?
- any more??

OP, do you work??

I'd like to suggest that we shorten your hours off.
You work from 8am to 11pm every day

This would:

- Increase productivity of your workplace
- Increase the productivity of you
- You won't be crowding up our streets at rush hour
- We get less of you

I'm open for people to suggest downsides

No? Why not? :rolleyes:

P.S. I don't really mindif I get an infraction for this.. I had to say it, it was worth it

Feeona

Despite stating at the start that this thread wasn't a dig at teachers, it's unsurprisingly turned out that way.

Jaysus lads would you quit your moaning and complaining about teachers? Go for a run or something to release all that pent up energy. Won't do you any harm. Off out to play a game of tennis myself

ash23

Feeona wrote: »

Despite stating at the start that this thread wasn't a dig at teachers, it's unsurprisingly turned out that way.

Jaysus lads would you quit your moaning and complaining about teachers? Go for a run or something to release all that pent up rage. Won't do you any harm. Off out to play a game of tennis myself

Questioning the governement, the public service, the banks etc isn't "moaning and complaining". We are entitled to discuss how the country is run, how money is spent, ways the system could be more efficient etc.
I didn't see much "rage" on here. :rolleyes:

partyatmygaff

omg a kitty wrote: »

OP, do you work??

I'd like to suggest that we shorten your hours off.
You work from 8am to 11pm every day

This would:

- Increase productivity of your workplace
- Increase the productivity of you
- You won't be crowding up our streets at rush hour
- We get less of you

I'm open for people to suggest downsides

No? Why not? :rolleyes:

P.S. I don't really mindif I get an infraction for this.. I had to say it, it was worth it

Why not go the whole hog and make it 20 hours a day for maximum productivity? Now that's what I call value for money.

Feeona

ash23 wrote: »

I didn't see much "rage" on here. :rolleyes:

Your 'roll-eyes' belie your apparent calmness :pac:

Wetai

I'm sure you loved 1-month holidays when you were young.
Might as well bring in Summer School, so..

Naomi00

This thread is such bull****..

Just when you think AH is finally getting a bit less serious someone brings up something they don't know anything about, and all the sudden 'experts' have to give their 2 cents. :rolleyes:

oppenheimer1

partyatmygaff wrote: »

School =/= Creche

A school is a place of learning.

All you care about is increasing working hours for teachers regardless of how much actual benefit that would give in terms of quality of education. Your motive is quite plain, you don't care about education. All you want is for teachers to work longer hours.

If we increased school hours, we could lengthen the curriculum. Children would have time to learn new subjects like a foreign language or computer programming. Summer school could be used to develop social skills, interest in nature and inter school sports during the school day. Summer school wouldn't and shouldn't be all about the blackboard but allowing children to be children with other children.

The real reason we won't see any reform in this area is solely down to the teachers. Teaching has never been about the children. Any arguments here by teachers are insincere and are solely to protect their vested interest.

Funny they always seem to happen to take maternity leave in September too.

Coriolanus

Naomi00 wrote: »

This thread is such bull****..

Just when you think AH is finally getting a bit less serious someone brings up something they don't know anything about, and all the sudden 'experts' have to give their 2 cents. :rolleyes:

It might be a bit of a leap, but I'm assuming that the 00 in your nick refers to your dob.
So, get the fsck to bed child. Way too late for a twelve year old to be up.

Naomi00

Nevore wrote: »

It might be a bit of a leap, but I'm assuming that the 00 in your nick refers to your dob.
So, get the fsck to bed child. Way too late for a twelve year old to be up.

It doesn't stand for anything actually so no, I'm obviously not 12.

Some of the stupid things people have written on this would make you laugh.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Naomi00 wrote: »

This thread is such bull****..

Just when you think AH is finally getting a bit less serious someone brings up something they don't know anything about, and all the sudden 'experts' have to give their 2 cents. :rolleyes:

Why is it Bull? People are just discussing the pros and cons of lengthening the school year.

Dudess

SunnyDub1 wrote: »

Totally agree
Children/students are spending more time out of school then they are in school :rolleyes:

No they're not - very basic maths says so.

That said, before I was 16 and working I used to get bored in the last few weeks of the summer holidays.

E.T.

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

If we increased school hours, we could lengthen the curriculum. Children would have time to learn new subjects like a foreign language or computer programming. Summer school could be used to develop social skills, interest in nature and inter school sports during the school day. Summer school wouldn't and shouldn't be all about the blackboard but allowing children to be children with other children.

The real reason we won't see any reform in this area is solely down to the teachers. Teaching has never been about the children. Any arguments here by teachers are insincere and are solely to protect their vested interest.

Funny they always seem to happen to take maternity leave in September too.

That last sentence really strengthens your argument:rolleyes: Damn those teachers (male and female!) and their amazing ability to get pregnant on demand! Must be a module in college.

oppenheimer1

E.T. wrote: »

That last sentence really strengthens your argument:rolleyes: Damn those teachers (male and female!) and their amazing ability to get pregnant on demand! Must be a module in college.

Well it would seem so. I thought it illustrates pretty well the care teachers have for education. It seems a lot of them would rather be milking the system thats there to protect mothers-to-be than educating.

Dudess

Naomi00 wrote: »

Nevore wrote: »

It might be a bit of a leap, but I'm assuming that the 00 in your nick refers to your dob.
So, get the fsck to bed child. Way too late for a twelve year old to be up.

It doesn't stand for anything actually so no, I'm obviously not 12.

Some of the stupid things people have written on this would make you laugh.

It's customary to give your point of view rather than just posting twice about how crap others' are - without even specifying which ones.

Kaner2004

We should lengthen the working year for everyone. Private and public sectors.
Cancel all bank holidays. And give only 2 weeks hols to everyone instead of 4.

Now, even if we double those cuts for teachers, people still wouldnt be happy, because now they themselves would have to give up some of their own holidays, even though teachers are giving up twice as much as them.

Its all just another version of me fein.

OP why dont you just come out and say it. You want to save money by hurting someone else, but not take any pain yourself.

oppenheimer1

Kaner2004 wrote: »

We should lengthen the working year for everyone. Private and public sectors.
Cancel all bank holidays. And give only 2 weeks hols to everyone instead of 4.

Now, even if we double those cuts for teachers, people still wouldnt be happy, because now they themselves would have to give up some of their own holidays, even though teachers are giving up twice as much as them.

Its all just another version of me fein.

OP why dont you just come out and say it. You want to save money by hurting someone else, but not take any pain yourself.

No, its all about fairness. If I only have 20 days holidays a year, why should a teacher, who enters on a good wage be entitled to over three times that. Whilst working a shorter day.

All workers should be entitled to the same basic holidays, particularly those in the public sector. After all we pay their wages.

micropig

Feeona wrote: »

Jaysus lads would you quit your moaning and complaining about teachers? Go for a run or something to release all that pent up energy. Won't do you any harm. Off out to play a game of tennis myself

I'm listening to teachers moan and complain all day about their wages and conditions on the news,
"Schools in Ireland are obliged to open for 183 days per year at primary level and 167 days per year at post-primary level

Discretionary days
Every school must be open for tuition for a minimum of 183 days at primary level and 167 days at post-primary level. Schools can use any remaining days at their discretion to extend the summer holiday period or to close on religious or other holidays.

However, schools cannot use these days to extend the Christmas, Easter or mid-term breaks (unless a religious observance day(s) falls at that time for schools of a particular denomination or faith). If a school does not have enough discretionary days left for a religious holiday, it can denote that day a non-tuition day."-Citzens information



We have trained teachers being paid to do nothing and empty buildings for a portion of the year. We are under utilising resources, that are being paid for by the exchequer.

lily09

According to the OECD the average primary teacher works for 186 days a year. In Ireland the average teacher works 183 so just slightly under the average.However our teaching hours are nearly 200 over the OECD average so it's not a case that teachers in Ireland are working vast amounts less than the rest of the OECD. I understand that people may see increased contact hours leading to increased productivity but in my opinion there are far bigger problems in the education system at the moment. There is no impetus in the department to sort out underperforming teachers or snas. Principals hands are tied and other teaches in the school have no power.

stripysocks85

micropig wrote: »

I'm listening to teachers moan and complain all day about their wages and conditions on the news, ironically in the T&L forum it's been suggested to be put in to the charter that other people shouldn't be allowed comment on teachers wages:rolleyes:


"Schools in Ireland are obliged to open for 183 days per year at primary level and 167 days per year at post-primary level

Discretionary days
Every school must be open for tuition for a minimum of 183 days at primary level and 167 days at post-primary level. Schools can use any remaining days at their discretion to extend the summer holiday period or to close on religious or other holidays.

However, schools cannot use these days to extend the Christmas, Easter or mid-term breaks (unless a religious observance day(s) falls at that time for schools of a particular denomination or faith). If a school does not have enough discretionary days left for a religious holiday, it can denote that day a non-tuition day."-Citzens information



We have trained teachers being paid to do nothing and empty buildings for a portion of the year. We are under utilising resources, that are being paid for by the exchequer.

Teachers and other members of the PS pay taxes too.

micropig

stripysocks85 wrote: »

Teachers and other members of the PS pay taxes too.

I never said they didn't I said

We are under utilising resources, that are being paid for by the exchequer.

From all the points I've made, that is the only thing you pick up on..wrongly?:D:D

Dudess

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Kaner2004 wrote: »

We should lengthen the working year for everyone. Private and public sectors.
Cancel all bank holidays. And give only 2 weeks hols to everyone instead of 4.

Now, even if we double those cuts for teachers, people still wouldnt be happy, because now they themselves would have to give up some of their own holidays, even though teachers are giving up twice as much as them.

Its all just another version of me fein.

OP why dont you just come out and say it. You want to save money by hurting someone else, but not take any pain yourself.

No, its all about fairness. If I only have 20 days holidays a year, why should a teacher, who enters on a good wage be entitled to over three times that. Whilst working a shorter day.

All workers should be entitled to the same basic holidays, particularly those in the public sector. After all we pay their wages.

But not all workers are educating children. The short classroom days and long holidays are for THEIR benefit which always gets forgotten in this debate. Teaching a child 9 to 5 all year round and with only a few weeks' holidays would be detrimental to them. And a teacher's working day is not finished in the classroom. Seems a tough job with a fairly mediocre salary - I wouldn't do it.

Irish Guitarist

I live near a school and have to listen to teenagers screaming at the top of their voices every morning. On a few occasions I've been woken up at 8 AM and have honestly thought that someone was being murdered or raped outside my front door.

It's nice and peaceful here when they have their holidays.

stripysocks85

micropig wrote: »

I never said they didn't I said


From all the points I've made, that is the only thing you pick up on..wrongly?:D:D

I wouldn't know where to start!!!!!!!

ash23

Dudess wrote: »

But not all workers are educating children. The short classroom days and long holidays are for THEIR benefit which always gets forgotten in this debate. Teaching a child 9 to 5 all year round and with only a few weeks' holidays would be detrimental to them.

Just do what the banks do and be open certain hours while the staff work full time. So have the kids in 9 to 3 and the teachers in 9 to 5.
Let the "teacher training days", parent teacher meetings and all the other excuses for school closures take place during mid term. Let the teachers supervise and mark the exam papers in the summer.
They'd still have more time off than your average worker and the kids would still have a short enough day and a long summer.
Win win. Except for the teachers of course, they wouldn't like it one bit.

Dudess

You can be sure they continue working well after the bell rings - and bring their work home with them.

stripysocks85

ash23 wrote: »

Just do what the banks do and be open certain hours while the staff work full time. So have the kids in 9 to 3 and the teachers in 9 to 5.

I work until 5 most days anyway. It's just flexible because I can choose to take my work home where it's not freezing fcuking cold. Or have you a problem with flexitime type situations also?

Also, bank staff get an hour/1hr 30 for lunch. I get 30 minutes, and I'm still not off duty - not entitled to leave the school premises as I have to be answerable at all times to the children in my duty of care. I'm not complaining about this, but no point giving a suggestion such as that when teachers simply can't have 1 hour to 'switch' off during the day.

ash23 wrote: »

Let the "teacher training days", parent teacher meetings and all the other excuses for school closures take place during mid term.

Em, they do? Any staff meetings we have are done from 3-5pm? I did parent teacher meetings in November and was in on the Wednesday and Thursday until 5.50pm??

ash23

stripysocks85 wrote: »

I work until 5 most days anyway. It's just flexible because I can choose to take my work home where it's not freezing fcuking cold. Or have you a problem with flexitime type situations also?

Fine I take your point about evenings. But there's no way you're preparing for classes throughout the mid terms, xmas and easter and summer breaks.

Also, bank staff get an hour/1hr 30 for lunch. I get 30 minutes, and I'm still not off duty - not entitled to leave the school premises as I have to be answerable at all times to the children in my duty of care. I'm not complaining about this, but no point giving a suggestion such as that when teachers simply can't have 1 hour to 'switch' off during the day.

Not true. i work in financial sector and we have 15 min break in the morning and half an hour for lunch. I see the teachers from my daughters school in the cafe every lunchtime (obviously a few stay but they take it in turns) so obviously it varies from place to place.
I also know that in my daughters school, to go to the staff room during the lunch break (45 mins break) you better have a good excuse....like a missing limb.

Em, they do? Any staff meetings we have are done from 3-5pm? I did parent teacher meetings in November and was in on the Wednesday and Thursday until 5.50pm??

hmmmm, for the last 5 years my daughters school have finished at 12pm for 2 days to facilitate PT meetings. Again, it differs in different schools obviously. Add to that the various training days and other days off/half days for miscellanous reasons.

Miss Lockhart

micropig wrote: »

Iironically in the T&L forum it's been suggested to be put in to the charter that other people shouldn't be allowed comment on teachers wages:rolleyes:

Where was this suggested micropig - any links or even any references to the exact post?

micropig

Dudess wrote: »

But not all workers are educating children. The short classroom days and long holidays are for THEIR benefit which always gets forgotten in this debate.Teaching a child 9 to 5 all year round and with only a few weeks' holidays would be detrimental to them. And a teacher's working day is not finished in the classroom. Seems a tough job with a fairly mediocre salary - I wouldn't do it.

Any links to that claim?

Here's a link to that says it's not good, it is infact bad for the poorer & the weaker & the younger students

England had this same debate last year. Some schools opted to shorten the 6 week holiday as it was too long and lengthen the school day

stripysocks85

ash23 wrote: »

Fine I take your point about evenings. But there's no way you're preparing for classes throughout the mid terms, xmas and easter and summer breaks.

And you know this how? Granted I don't spend ALL my free time during that time preparing/planning lessons, but I do spend time doing it. And during the summer holidays, to an extent. I can only speak personally for myself though, I don't do what anyone else does.

ash23 wrote: »

Not true. i work in financial sector and we have 15 min break in the morning and half an hour for lunch. I see the teachers from my daughters school in the cafe every lunchtime (obviously a few stay but they take it in turns) so obviously it varies from place to place.
I also know that in my daughters school, to go to the staff room during the lunch break (45 mins break) you better have a good excuse....like a missing limb.

We don't get 45 minutes break for lunch, so perhaps in your daughter's school, they're taking the biscuit a bit. I know for a FACT legally you're not allowed to leave the school premises. If anything happens to a child in your class during that time, you are personally held responsible.

ash23 wrote: »

hmmmm, for the last 5 years my daughters school have finished at 12pm for 2 days to facilitate PT meetings. Again, it differs in different schools obviously. Add to that the various training days and other days off/half days for miscellanous reasons.

That USED to be the case, but not since the Croke Park hours were introduced and the 'teacher/pupil contact time' elongated 'for the good of the children'.

There hasn't been an Inservice/training day in my school this year, or last year that I recall. As for half days for 'miscellaneous reasons' I would really question YOUR daughter's school as this is certainly not common practice in the other schools across the country.

stripysocks85

micropig wrote: »

Any links to that claim?

Here's a link to that says it's not good, it is infact bad for the poorer & the weaker & the younger students

England had this same debate last year. Some schools opted to shorten the 6 week holiday as it was too long and lengthen the school day

Trust me, following the foosteps of the UK Education System is NOT where we want to be headed.

micropig

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

Where was this suggested micropig - any links or even any references to the exact post?

.

oppenheimer1

Dudess wrote: »

But not all workers are educating children. The short classroom days and long holidays are for THEIR benefit which always gets forgotten in this debate. Teaching a child 9 to 5 all year round and with only a few weeks' holidays would be detrimental to them. And a teacher's working day is not finished in the classroom. Seems a tough job with a fairly mediocre salary - I wouldn't do it.

Detrimental, for their benefit... both utter nonsense. Most other countries have a longer school year and it isn't detrimental to their children. Many of these have children who exceed ours in numeracy and literacy.

The long school holidays were never for the benefit of the children, and to say so is to perpetuate a myth. The long holidays and short days were so children could help out on the farm. This was in place because if it wasn't parents wouldn't send their children. Back then there was little cultural importance placed on education, so this was a compromise.

These days it is hardly in the childrens benefit, where we have a curriculum crammed into a short year, with many children failing at literacy and numeracy. It would be beneficial for them to spend longer with the teacher. The only group the long holidays serve is the teachers, not the parents or the children. Funny that is a constant theme in Irish education - a system to serve the vested interests, never education or children.

I'm not advocating the abolition of holidays for school children, they do need time off, and need more time off than adults. They do need however to spend some more time in school, I would suggest an extra 6 weeks. Teachers do not however need the same amount of time off as their students. Teachers could use the rest of the additional time off to prepare lessons, write books (which would abolish the need for expensive textbooks) or run extra tuition for children who need extra help.

Dudess wrote: »

You can be sure they continue working well after the bell rings - and bring their work home with them.

A small amount of unpaid/unofficial overtime... its not as if no one else has to do that too.In fact most workers do. My heart bleeds.

ash23

The kids aren't in class during breaks. They get 10 mins to eat their lunch (usually starting 10 mins before lunch time) and then they are made leave the class room and go outside.

Maybe they are "taking the biscuit" but I'm sure they aren't the only school doing so. The other national school in the area does the same.

Is anyone enforcing/spot checking schools to see that these agreements are being adhered to?

As for how I know that you're not spending all your time off preparing for classes? lets be grownups here. 163 working days out of 365? 110 for weekends, 9 public holidays and the average 20 days holidays. Leaving a teacher with about 63 days more holidays than another worker.

63 days to prepare for 163 days of classes? I don't think so.

I know many teachers who also say they work later and during holidays. however they are mainly talking about paper marking, exam supervision and grinds for which they are paid for and it's not part of their "main" teaching job.

Miss Lockhart

I don't see anything in that post about "other people not being allowed comment on teacher's pay"?

I see a poster asking that other people not be allowed demand that teachers divulge their personal paypacket - to add a rule that "personal questions about individual pay are not allowed".

Not quite the same thing is it? But then the plain truth wouldn't quite suit your agenda micropig - or your snide and confrontational posting style. Much better to put your own misinterpretation and negative spin on everything instead.

micropig

stripysocks85 wrote: »

Trust me, following the foosteps of the UK Education System is NOT where we want to be headed.

I was disputing the following claim

Teaching a child 9 to 5 all year round and with only a few weeks' holidays would be detrimental to them.

The link disputes that claim, I was not suggesting we follow the UK model, they also debated on this topic. Some research shows shortening the school holidays has benefits. Some of the research mentioned is from the US. Any links to show otherwise?

"Work by Beckett Broh finds that some ethnic minorities are more adversely affected by longer school holidays than others.

Malcolm Gladwell's book Outliers has helped to popularise a whole body of academic research showing how poorer kids fall behind their better off peers during the long summer holidays.

A US study by Barbara Heynes’ in 1978 found that while poor children and black children came close to keeping up with middle-class children in cognitive growth when school was in session, they lagged far behind during the summer.

Work by Karl Alexander, Doris Entwisle and Linda Olson, built on this. They produce fascinating statistics showing that while reading scores improve fairly evenly for rich and poor kids during the school months, richer kids pull ahead during the summer holidays.

These academics also find that this problem is particularly acute in the earlier years of schooling."

E.T.

Were any of those books or studies based in Ireland?

oppenheimer1

E.T. wrote: »

Were any of those books or studies based in Ireland?

Do you think Irish teachers would be stupid enough to conduct research like that?!

sock puppet

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Do you think Irish teachers would be stupid enough to conduct research like that?!

Why do you say that? It's common knowledge that Irish teachers spend more time teaching than the OECD average.

oppenheimer1

sock puppet wrote: »

Why do you say that? It's common knowledge that Irish teachers spend more time teaching than the OECD average.

But fewer number of days.

Craebear

I would like shorter holidays and shorter school hours with less homework. Oh and a system for getting rid of the bad teachers would be nice too!

micropig

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

I don't see anything in that post about "other people not being allowed comment on teacher's pay"?

I see a poster asking that other people not be allowed demand that teachers divulge their personal paypacket - to add a rule that "personal questions about individual pay are not allowed".

Not quite the same thing is it? But then the plain truth wouldn't quite suit your agenda micropig - or your snide and confrontational posting style. Much better to put your own misinterpretation and negative spin on everything instead.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: Yes I'm bitter I know already, your reply does not really answer the question of "why can't school holidays be shorter?"

Your answer was well worded and your grammar is excellent, but next time, take the time to read the question in the OP thoroughly before writing your answer. Jot down notes on a rough sheet of paper if this helps.:p

E.T. wrote: »

Were any of those books or studies based in Ireland?

No because the teachers had no time to participate in them

sock puppet

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

But fewer number of days.

Yep. Which is why I'm not sure if teachers would be that opposed to shortering their work day and increasing the number of days worked.

lily09

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

But fewer number of days.

7 days more alright but Irish primary teachers work 3oo hours more.