Why can't school holidays be shorter

NakedNNettles

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

There is absolutely no reason our schools couldn't be open during the summer months providing learning opportunities for those that want to avail of them. Except of course, teachers not wanting to do it.

We have yet to get one good reason why they aren't feasible.

I'll give you a reason why a school can't be open, its called MONEY! Cleaners, lighting, insurance and so on.......

There are Summer camps available for students should they want to attend otherwise any resourceful student will have some hobbies that they are interested in already.

Many teachers already work in summer camps and correcting state exams.

A student dosen't learn anything about life in a grey concrete building, its all academic. Time needs to be given to learning and creativity outside of schools too otherwise you end up with something like Asia...a bunch of human robots.

NakedNNettles

mishkalucy wrote: »

With all due respect to you as a teacher, not sure as to the ten hour thing. Surely though for the average school day as a teacher you would have the "wherewithall" to be able to interact with a child without the use of movies.

You ever spend 10 hours trying to keep a kid amused.

Try it sometime, see if you don't lose your sanity.

billybudd

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/education/adult_and_life_long_education/adult_literacy.html

A significant proportion of the Irish population has low levels of literacy

The part in bold is a qoute from that website and according to barnardos it has not improved since 1980, obviously there is something very broken in the education system here and something has to change, i personally do not care how much teachers get paid or how much time they get off and any other crap that takes us away from something so important that it has to be debated.

If a teacher on here can give me his/her reason why literacy rates are so poor here and what in his/her opinion is the solution that would be great instead of the defensive ramblings that have been posted to date.

I personally think a longer school year would be better with shortened days as i believe children learn and have more interest in the hours from 7am-12 midday, afternoon school was always very unproductive in my view as teachers as well as students became visably tired and unmotivated.

Lord TSC

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Its easy to spot the teachers posting here. They dismiss quite good creative and cheap ideas totally out of hand without reason.

Such statements can be made both ways; it strikes me there's some posters who are using anecdotal evidence and personal opinion to paint all teachers with one brush, and refuse to acknowledge the counter-points being offered by teachers. It's why these topics drive me nuts; it doesn't matter what some people say, a lot of people have their opinions of what way things should be and refuse, point blank, to bend their thinking...

EDIT:
This may already have been pointed out as well, but it's worth noting that according to recent figures, 27% of teachers are on part time or temporary work. If you want them to work an extra 1 or 2 months a year, you've got to find more money to pay them, since most of them (like myself) are not paid during the summer months. In a day and age where people are clamoring for paycuts and reduced costs on teachers wages, it's completely counter-productive to then be arguing that you want teachers to work extra months, since that would actually increase wage budgets...

OldNotWIse

Kaner2004 wrote: »

We should lengthen the working year for everyone. Private and public sectors.
Cancel all bank holidays. And give only 2 weeks hols to everyone instead of 4.

Now, even if we double those cuts for teachers, people still wouldnt be happy, because now they themselves would have to give up some of their own holidays, even though teachers are giving up twice as much as them.

Its all just another version of me fein.

OP why dont you just come out and say it. You want to save money by hurting someone else, but not take any pain yourself.

I dont think the OP was wrong to point out that most of us get 20/21 days per year while teachers get an awful lot more. That's just the simple, plain truth and whether we agree with it or not is one thing, but what amazes me is tha amount of posters here trying to blatantly deny it lol

LuckyLloyd

tempura wrote: »

I like seeing my kids.

I like that they get long holidays.

Have just spent the last two weeks enjoying their company, kids are great little people.

They deserve to be kids and enjoy their childhood, it really doesn't last that long.

There is so much more to life than money and maximising economic efficiency. Well said.

There are of course valid technical arguments against the suggestions made in this thread, but should anyone need to make them when the above rings so true?

OldNotWIse

Dudess wrote: »

But not all workers are educating children. The short classroom days and long holidays are for THEIR benefit which always gets forgotten in this debate. Teaching a child 9 to 5 all year round and with only a few weeks' holidays would be detrimental to them. And a teacher's working day is not finished in the classroom. Seems a tough job with a fairly mediocre salary - I wouldn't do it.

Saying that a profession is difficult is not necessarily justification for needing very long periods off work. I dont want to go down the road of pitting one profession against another as I think it's trite but take the example of a surgeon whose job it is to save lives. By the same logic, they too should be entitled to enormous holidays (and then some more) because of the stress of their job, but they dont have this luzury. Also saying, "I wouldn't do it" is neither here nor there. I wouldn't do it either but that doesn't mean those who do choose to do it are justified in bleating on about how difficult it is. The same way that when we say, "teaching is a cushy number" and everyone retorts, "well why didn't you do it?" we can also reply to the moans and gripes about how difficult it is with, "Well why did you do it?" - if it's that hard that three months leave are required to recover...maybe it's not the right choice? Just saying...

LuckyLloyd

micropig wrote: »

Your children are lucky. They have you to care about them, doing things with them and it sounds like they enjoy spending time at home.

Some children are not so lucky. They come from abusive homes, where their parents do not give a sh1t, are abusive etc.:(

No matter how strong an educational setup (or the teachers / support staff employed by same), the reality is that home conditions and parental guidance will make or break what the vast majority of kids achieve. Education should not be confused as surrogate parenthood, and it should not be the State's objective to create a system that minimises the impact on kids of the worst 10% of family situations.

The academic research you quote in this thread is undoubtedly valid and in an ideal world education would be tailored on a local level so that every school could focus on the specific contexts and needs of the community it serves.

That is not realistic on a public level though because of resourcing and the need for standardisation of teaching qualifications. The current system is a benefit for the majority of children (and teenagers), as the time spent outside school positively contributes to their social development and personal experience. It may impact a section more negatively than a longer school year would - but you are talking about a section that have disadvantages that dwarf such concerns.

ash23

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

There is so much more to life than money and maximising economic efficiency. Well said.

There are of course valid technical arguments against the suggestions made in this thread, but should anyone need to make them when the above rings so true?

Because a huge number of parents are trying to split 20-40 days holidays between them to cover 83 days that the kids aren't in school. A lot of kids, my own included, spend the majority of their time off school in childminders or creches. My daughter has been off for a week and a half for Easter and is dying to get back to school.
Yeah I'd love to be able to coo about the time I get to spend with her in the holidays but the statement you quoted doesn't ring true for everyone.

LuckyLloyd

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Its easy to spot the teachers posting here.

I find your posts in this thread to be quite irritating because you are working off the assumption that 1 hour of work involving contact time as a teacher = 1 hour of work doing anything. Unfortunately, nothing I could write could convince you of it - but there is definitely a number X of teaching contact hours that could be reasonably handled by teachers in any period before intolerable exposure to stress and strain. We obviously don't require teachers in the state system to hit X under the current setup, but we definitely aren't as far off from it as you are lazily assuming in this thread.

I'm not a teacher by the way.

LuckyLloyd

ash23 wrote: »

Because a huge number of parents are trying to split 20-40 days holidays between them to cover 83 days that the kids aren't in school. A lot of kids, my own included, spend the majority of their time off school in childminders or creches. My daughter has been off for a week and a half for Easter and is dying to get back to school.
Yeah I'd love to be able to coo about the time I get to spend with her in the holidays but the statement you quoted doesn't ring true for everyone.

That's a shame though isn't it? Ideally you would spend it with your kids. If you can't, then it is to their (and your) detriment. Economic reality may force you to move away from the ideal in the above example, but that isn't the State's fault or responsibility.

OldNotWIse

ash23 wrote: »

Because a huge number of parents are trying to split 20-40 days holidays between them to cover 83 days that the kids aren't in school. A lot of kids, my own included, spend the majority of their time off school in childminders or creches. My daughter has been off for a week and a half for Easter and is dying to get back to school.
Yeah I'd love to be able to coo about the time I get to spend with her in the holidays but the statement you quoted doesn't ring true for everyone.

Thats not a justification ... Teachers are there to educate our children, not babysit them.

ash23

I never said it was the states responsibility. I actually don't think the kids need shorter holidays. I do think teachers should work more though as stated in my previous posts.

I was just pointing out that saying we shouldn't query longer working hours for teachers/kids because we should be all fluffiness and light about having them at home as much as possible isn't necessarily a valid argument.

Oh and me working full time is not to my or my daughters detriment.
The alternative is to live on welfare. Plus I like my job and don't want to be at home with her all the time.
Each to their own.

LuckyLloyd

ash23 wrote: »

I never said it was the states responsibility. I actually don't think the kids need shorter holidays. I do think teachers should work more though as stated in my previous posts.

I was just pointing out that saying we shouldn't query longer working hours for teachers/kids because we should be all fluffiness and light about having them at home as much as possible isn't necessarily a valid argument.

Oh and me working full time is not to my or my daughters detriment.
The alternative is to live on welfare. Plus I like my job and don't want to be at home with her all the time.
Each to their own.

The core of it is a very important point though - children learn and develop from a multitude of sources. The time they spend in school is but one component of that development - time with their parents and friends is just as vital, and kids who spend quality time with their parents in their youth will benefit massively.

ash23

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The core of it is a very important point though - children learn and develop from a multitude of sources. The time they spend in school is but one component of that development - time with their parents and friends is just as vital, and kids who spend quality time with their parents in their youth will benefit massively.

Thats' what evenings and weekends are for.

However for the weeks and weeks they have off in term time and summer time, the kids don't always relish that time off. Boredom is rife in most houses and time in creche and babysitters is also a big part of it for loads of kids.
So it's not as simple as saying "kids need that time with their parents" or "parents should enjoy that time with their kids".

Not all kids are at home for those weeks so for many it's not really a valid argument towards the long holidays. I was just making that point.

(and as you said they key word is quality time, not necessarily just quantity)

kraggy

mishkalucy wrote: »

Keeping children as young as 4 engaged for 10 hours is not possible. Even if you showed them their favourite movies they wouldn't stay interested for 10 hours.

You still haven't answered what the kids will eat to sustain them for 10 hours. Packing a lunch that will give them adequate nutirition is very difficult. You can't just give them sandwiches.

Teachers are delusional? We're the ones who are in the classroom and know what kids can and can't do. We're the ones who know what works and doesn't work.

Some of us go straight from college to work. I didn't. I'd wager that I have ten times more life experience than you and have been through even more times crap in my life than you. But I said I'd wager, but unlike you I won't presume. Cause I don't know that for a fact.

Once you've stepped inside a classroom as a teacher and have gained some real insight into what the job involves and not just speaking from having past experience as a student, then get back to us with your ingenious analysis.

With all due respect to you as a teacher, not sure as to the ten hour thing. Surely though for the average school day as a teacher you would have the "wherewithall" to be able to interact with a child without the use of movies.

I wasn't suggesting that I would use movies. I was using it as an example. If the kids have already done a day at school, come 4pm, being 4 years old, they will be incredibly restless, tired and not interested in group activities. They'll want some quiet time to themselves which can't ordinarily be provided for in a classroom environment.

It's just not feasible having 4 year old kids in school for 10 hours.

Besides that, why should schools be treated as a baby-sitting service? Because that's what was implied in the OP. He said that school hours should fit around the hours that the parents work. Why the hell should they?

Would people expect nurses to babysit kids for a few hours after they've treated them in the outpatients' clinic?

I presume not.

ash23

kraggy wrote: »

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It's just not feasible having 4 year old kids in school for 10 hours.

Loads of kids are in creches for 8 to 10 hours a day though so it's not totally impossible. A variety of activities, meals provided, nap times and structure make it possible.

(I don't want kids in school for 10 hours a day, I'm just saying that it is do-able)

cowzerp

I'd be all for it only been 1 month summer holidays and stop giving the kids homework-That's when they should be able to chill out and have a life.

Would probably make kids hate school less and not just shut off during school, and a month is still a good long break anyway.

kraggy

ash23 wrote: »

Loads of kids are in creches for 8 to 10 hours a day though so it's not totally impossible. A variety of activities, meals provided, nap times and structure make it possible.

(I don't want kids in school for 10 hours a day, I'm just saying that it is do-able)

You see, do people want the kids in school for 10 hours for education, or for babysitting?

If it's the former, then my point still stands. You can't keep kids engaged as a class for 10 hours. It's a whole different ball game to basic crowd control that goes on in a creche.

If it's the latter, then why the hell do people expect teachers to babysit their children? We're not childminders. We're qualified professionals.

ash23

kraggy wrote: »

You see, do people want the kids in school for 10 hours for education, or for babysitting?

If it's the former, then my point still stands. You can't keep kids engaged as a class for 10 hours. It's a whole different ball game to basic crowd control that goes on in a creche.

Oh that's a bit naive! The adult:child ratio in creches is far smaller than in schools so I think schools are more "crowd control" than creches. Also my own child learned loads in both creche and school. She was a bit bored in JI because she knew most of the stuff already. Montessori is quite educational actually.

If it's the latter, then why the hell do people expect teachers to babysit their children? We're not childminders. We're qualified professionals.

I don't think it's that people want teachers to be childminders. More that they think that teachers should work an 8/9 hour day with 20 odd days holidays like most mere mortals.
It gets hard for a parent to stomach listening to teachers whinge about their lot when said parents are breaking their necks and breaking the bank trying to fill the gap between school days and their own working day.
I'd have more respect for teachers who acknowledge that they aren't badly paid, they have good holidays and just leave it at that. Acknowledge the perks. But quit bleating about how hard it all is.

I have good perks in my job which I am grateful for and I acknowledge I am lucky to get. End of. But I don't go on and on and on about how crap my job is and about how I am oh so deserving of it all. Some teachers need to get over themselves imo. Stop jumping on the defensive every time someone so much as dares question the occupation or the hours or the perks.
I honestly think it comes from spending all day with kids and expecting everyone to do as they are told.

Lord TSC

ash23 wrote: »

I have good perks in my job which I am grateful for and I acknowledge I am lucky to get. End of. But I don't go on and on and on about how crap my job is and about how I am oh so deserving of it all. Some teachers need to get over themselves imo. Stop jumping on the defensive every time someone so much as dares question the occupation or the hours or the perks.
I honestly think it comes from spending all day with kids and expecting everyone to do as they are told.

See, this freaks me as well.

Every second day, there's a topic on here attacking teachers. No other profession gets so much abuse from people. And yet, if teachers dare try and defend themselves, they are told to shut up and accept people's preconceptions of them, and accept the abuse. No other profession in the world gets the same level of abuse on here (bar, maybe, politicians), but for some reason, teachers aren't allowed to try and defend themselves.

The main reason teachers go on and on about things is because some people are obsessed with going on and on about launching attacks on them. I garruntee that if the level of topics attacking teachers dropped, so to would the level of teachers going on and on about how hard it is and trying to justify themselves....

gagiteebo

ash23 wrote: »

It gets hard for a parent to stomach listening to teachers whinge about their lot when said parents are breaking their necks and breaking the bank trying to fill the gap between school days and their own working day.

I'd have more respect for teachers who acknowledge that they aren't badly paid, they have good holidays and just leave it at that. Acknowledge the perks. But quit bleating about how hard it all is.

I have good perks in my job which I am grateful for and I acknowledge I am lucky to get. End of. But I don't go on and on and on about how crap my job is and about how I am oh so deserving of it all. Some teachers need to get over themselves imo. Stop jumping on the defensive every time someone so much as dares question the occupation or the hours or the perks.
I honestly think it comes from spending all day with kids and expecting everyone to do as they are told.

And some of us who are teachers and parents are equally breaking our necks and breaking the banks trying to survive as well, this doesn't just apply to parents outside the profession wondering what they'll do with their children during the holidays.

Teachers are constantly being attacked so of course we are going to defend ourselves as would any profession. I don't know any teacher who says or has said how crap their job is btw. The problem is teacher bashers only hear what they want to hear and run with that.

Yes there are terrible teachers, there are terrible workers in every profession. Yes there are perks, again every profession has its perks. In my view, yes, a lot of older teachers who are near retirement are on nice salaries. In my own experience I've been teaching for 6 years, I'm not on full hours, I'm not permanent, I might not have a job next year, I earn just over 300 euro a week and I've bills, mortgage, car, kids.... like many other people and I'm sick to the teeth of people thinking I'm on some fantastic wage and should shut up because I have 3 months summer holidays.

I'm not saying oh woe is me or looking for sympathy but I think people should not always listen to some of the crap that they are fed by the media and realise that if what is being said does apply, then it's to a very small number of teachers and stop tarring everyone with the same brush.

gagiteebo

ash23 wrote: »

I honestly think it comes from spending all day with kids and expecting everyone to do as they are told.

Very convenient. How would you justify other professions defending themselves.

kraggy

ash23 wrote: »

Oh that's a bit naive! The adult:child ratio in creches is far smaller than in schools so I think schools are more "crowd control" than creches. Also my own child learned loads in both creche and school. She was a bit bored in JI because she knew most of the stuff already. Montessori is quite educational actually.



I don't think it's that people want teachers to be childminders. More that they think that teachers should work an 8/9 hour day with 20 odd days holidays like most mere mortals.
It gets hard for a parent to stomach listening to teachers whinge about their lot when said parents are breaking their necks and breaking the bank trying to fill the gap between school days and their own working day.
I'd have more respect for teachers who acknowledge that they aren't badly paid, they have good holidays and just leave it at that. Acknowledge the perks. But quit bleating about how hard it all is.

I have good perks in my job which I am grateful for and I acknowledge I am lucky to get. End of. But I don't go on and on and on about how crap my job is and about how I am oh so deserving of it all. Some teachers need to get over themselves imo. Stop jumping on the defensive every time someone so much as dares question the occupation or the hours or the perks.
I honestly think it comes from spending all day with kids and expecting everyone to do as they are told.

You can kiss goodbye to any decent education system and any decent teachers if you have them working the same hours and having the same holidays as someone working in say an office.

You have no clue what's it's like to be responsible for the education, safety and general wellbeing of 30+ children. I've seen teachers bitten, spat at been sent over the edge because of particular students.

Do you know what it's like to deal with the unpredictability of a child with ADHD or pyschological or emotional problems suddenly go mental inside the enclosed space in which you work, and attempt to keep everyone on task and protected from injury?

It's not a 9-5 job because if it were, you'd have a spiked increase in mental illness amongst teachers. It's pysically and emotionally draining. A teacher can't even go to toilet when they want!

ash23

gagiteebo wrote: »

Very convenient. How would you justify other professions defending themselves.

It's not the defending. It's the absolute inability to take any form of criticism and to jump to the defensive.
There is something very very wrong in the education system.
Lack of career guidance. Lack of support from students who struggle.

And then parents and those who went through the school system themselves point out flaws and are told they're "bitter" and should have become teachers.
Where I work, when we get a complaint, we listen to the criticism and we try to fix the problem. In the education system it's a case of "shut up you don't know what you're talking about". Well, I think you'll find that those of us who were in school and whose kids are in school DO know what we're talking about. We might be seeing it from a different perspective but surely that should be listened to?

But teachers would rather dismiss us as "bashing" them yadda yadda.
Maybe if teachers tried to open their ears to what is being said rather than immediately going for the defensive, some resolve would be reached.
Perhaps education is a hot topic because nothing has changed in decades and the literacy rate is dismal and the people who are responsible don't seem to give a hoot.

Calling for better services shouldn't be seen as a bad thing. We want our children to be educated. And educated well. We pay well for it (and I'm not just talking about taxes but about books, uniforms, "voluntary(my arse)" contributions. We pay for fundraising for all these things in the school so that the kids can have the things the school wants them to have (interactive white boards being the latest). And yet, we have some kids being left behind in their education. It's not really acceptable.
But god forbid anyone would question it.

I wonder how my boss would take it if the next customer who complains is told by me "you haven't a clue what it's like to work here and listen to the likes of you talking all day. How dare you expect me to do my job when it's been so stressful this week".
P45 me thinks.

Formosa

I heard student teachers on newstalk this morning complaining about the low pay they will get compared to their older, more established colleagues.

Their command of the English language was abysmal. How many times can someone use the word "like" out of context?

Are standards really gone that low?

gagiteebo

ash23 wrote: »

It's not the defending. It's the absolute inability to take any form of criticism and to jump to the defensive.
There is something very very wrong in the education system.
Lack of career guidance. Lack of support from students who struggle.

And then parents and those who went through the school system themselves point out flaws and are told they're "bitter" and should have become teachers.
Where I work, when we get a complaint, we listen to the criticism and we try to fix the problem. In the education system it's a case of "shut up you don't know what you're talking about". Well, I think you'll find that those of us who were in school and whose kids are in school DO know what we're talking about. We might be seeing it from a different perspective but surely that should be listened to?

But teachers would rather dismiss us as "bashing" them yadda yadda.
Maybe if teachers tried to open their ears to what is being said rather than immediately going for the defensive, some resolve would be reached.
Perhaps education is a hot topic because nothing has changed in decades and the literacy rate is dismal and the people who are responsible don't seem to give a hoot.

Calling for better services shouldn't be seen as a bad thing. We want our children to be educated. And educated well. We pay well for it (and I'm not just talking about taxes but about books, uniforms, "voluntary(my arse)" contributions. We pay for fundraising for all these things in the school so that the kids can have the things the school wants them to have (interactive white boards being the latest). And yet, we have some kids being left behind in their education. It's not really acceptable.
But god forbid anyone would question it.

I wonder how my boss would take it if the next customer who complains is told by me "you haven't a clue what it's like to work here and listen to the likes of you talking all day. How dare you expect me to do my job when it's been so stressful this week".
P45 me thinks.

I really don't think you will listen to anything that is being said. Do you really think that teachers are that ignorant and self-absorbed that they don't care about the needs of children if the pay etc isn't 'just right'. What a joke, I don't know what expeiences you have had but any school I have been in if there is a complaint, the school has also always listened to the problem and tried to fix it for the good of everyone involved. Never have I come across the attitude of 'shut up you don't know what you are talking about' if a parent etc comes in with a problem.

We all want better services and better education noone is arguing on that front or saying it is a bad thing. I have children myself, I'm well aware of both sides, that of a parent and that of a teacher. So I know what I'm talking about also, don't be so condescending.

Again I have never come across any colleagues that have said along the lines of 'how dare you expect me to do my job when it has been so stressful....' Everyone vents about a hard day. What you are saying is a bit dramatic.

ash23

gagiteebo wrote: »

I really don't think you will listen to anything that is being said. Do you really think that teachers are that ignorant and self-absorbed that they don't care about the needs of children if the pay etc isn't 'just right'. What a joke, I don't know what expeiences you have had but any school I have been in if there is a complaint, the school has also always listened to the problem and tried to fix it for the good of everyone involved. Never have I come across the attitude of 'shut up you don't know what you are talking about' if a parent etc comes in with a problem.

We all want better services and better education noone is arguing on that front or saying it is a bad thing. I have children myself, I'm well aware of both sides, that of a parent and that of a teacher. So I know what I'm talking about also, don't be so condescending.

Again I have never come across any colleagues that have said along the lines of 'how dare you expect me to do my job when it has been so stressful....' Everyone vents about a hard day. What you are saying is a bit dramatic.

I'm just talking about threads like this.

There have been numerous posts along the lines of "you have no idea what it's like" and "if it's so great why don't you do it" etc etc.

No teachers actually mentioned the poor literacy levels and that is something they are responsible for.
I've also had similar discussions with teacher friends who basically have the same attitude. They think they should be untouchable and more or less unaccountable. It's a sad fact that there is more regulation and accountability in our banks than our schools.

Nothing happened to me in school. I was a good student and thankfully so is my child so personally, I have no axe to grind.
But I did see the poorer performing students ignored and nobody really cared if they did well or not. And I do hear things from my daughter about her teacher that make my toes curl. But it's not about my child so what am I meant to do.
My daughter will be fine because she is bright. But yes, it does make me annoyed that kids who aren't so lucky are being left behind.

I'm sure if I went in with a specific problem about a specific child I'd be heard but we're not talking specifics here. We're talking generally. And generally speaking our education standards are dropping.

gagiteebo

ash23 wrote: »

I'm just talking about threads like this.

There have been numerous posts along the lines of "you have no idea what it's like" and "if it's so great why don't you do it" etc etc.

No teachers actually mentioned the poor literacy levels and that is something they are responsible for.
I've also had similar discussions with teacher friends who basically have the same attitude. They think they should be untouchable and more or less unaccountable. It's a sad fact that there is more regulation and accountability in our banks than our schools.

Nothing happened to me in school. I was a good student and thankfully so is my child so personally, I have no axe to grind.
But I did see the poorer performing students ignored and nobody really cared if they did well or not. And I do hear things from my daughter about her teacher that make my toes curl. But it's not about my child so what am I meant to do.
My daughter will be fine because she is bright. But yes, it does make me annoyed that kids who aren't so lucky are being left behind.

I'm sure if I went in with a specific problem about a specific child I'd be heard but we're not talking specifics here. We're talking generally. And generally speaking our education standards are dropping.

Well as regards poor literacy, it is a problem, there is no doubt about that. We just sorted through the entrance exams for the incoming first years and it is shocking. I can't speak for all schools but we are definitely not ignoring it, we are working to solve this. But it is not as you say purely the fault of the teacher. The parents are responsible also, as are the department. Do you know that for English poor spelling etc is only docked by 10%, that's total, and they would have to spell every single word wrong to get 10% taken off. So we are fighting the fight, yet the powers that be won't change anything, despite protests, yet it's the fault of teachers.

More regulation and accountability in our banks? Are you living in the real world at all. The problems are trying to be solved by the dedicate 'lay teachers' such as myself but we hit road blocks every step of the way. We are an easy target of course, nothing new there.

If teacher friends of yours are really of the attitude that they are untouchable etc then I am not surprised you are of this opinion. That says more about them as professionals than the profession itself. If I ever get that attitude then I will be reconsidering if I should stay in this profession. I don't agree with that attitude at all, shame on them.

Lord TSC

ash23 wrote: »

No teachers actually mentioned the poor literacy levels and that is something they are responsible for.
I've also had similar discussions with teacher friends who basically have the same attitude. They think they should be untouchable and more or less unaccountable. It's a sad fact that there is more regulation and accountability in our banks than our schools.

It's no wonder they go ultra defensive if you place all the blame for poor literacy levels on teachers :P

the purple tin

I'm sure there's parents who would agree with shorter holidays. Some of them are ready for the nut-house by the end of the summer break.

ash23

gagiteebo wrote: »

Well as regards poor literacy, it is a problem, there is no doubt about that. We just sorted through the entrance exams for the incoming first years and it is shocking. I can't speak for all schools but we are definitely not ignoring it, we are working to solve this. But it is not as you say purely the fault of the teacher. The parents are responsible also, as are the department. Do you know that for English poor spelling etc is only docked by 10%, that's total, and they would have to spell every single word wrong to get 10% taken off. So we are fighting the fight, yet the powers that be won't change anything, despite protests, yet it's the fault of teachers.

In my own experience, my daughter does spelling tests every week but when doing written work her spellings are allowed to be incorrect. If I tell her something is spelled wrong she says "the teacher says it's ok". Same for grammar. So the teachers are also to blame on a ground level in some instances.

More regulation and accountability in our banks? Are you living in the real world at all. The problems are trying to be solved by the dedicate 'lay teachers' such as myself but we hit road blocks every step of the way. We are an easy target of course, nothing new there.

I work in the financial sector so yes, I'm living in the real world. I have to do CPD every year. In my own time and at my own expense. It's not mandatory for teachers which baffles me.

If teacher friends of yours are really of the attitude that they are untouchable etc then I am not surprised you are of this opinion. That says more about them as professionals than the profession itself. If I ever get that attitude then I will be reconsidering if I should stay in this profession. I don't agree with that attitude at all, shame on them.

Well yes, shame on them. But they are out there. Smugness is probably the best word to describe it.

Lord TSC

the purple tin wrote: »

I'm sure there's parents who would agree with shorter holidays. Some of them are ready for the nut-house by the end of the summer break.

Well God forbid parents would have to deal with their children. Better offload them back to the schools as quickly as possible so the teachers can be driven to the nut-house instead :rolleyes:

ash23

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

It's no wonder they go ultra defensive if you place all the blame for poor literacy levels on teachers :P

Did I place all the blame on them? No.

But expecting teachers to teach children how to read and write is too much to ask is it? :rolleyes:

Lord TSC

ash23 wrote: »

Did I place all the blame on them? No.

But expecting teachers to teach children how to read and write is too much to ask is it? :rolleyes:

Of course not. But the implication seemed to be that poor literacy is all down to teachers. Teachers need parents to back up the learning with teaching of their own as well.

I love writing, to the extent I'm shipping round a book to publishers at the moment. My literacy levels was down in part to teachers and in part to the fact I had parents who helped me read, who encouraged me to write, who sat down with me at a young age and got me to read newspapers, books and such things to them, and who helped me every step of the way.

Teachers can try as hard as they want, but if they don't have the backing of parents who are re-enforcing the work at home, then it's pointless. There's no point me spending 20 minutes trying to teach kids something in a class if they then go home and are met with an attitude at home of ignorance or nonchalance about learning. The way I see it is that learning is facilitated by three things; Teacher's teaching, parent's re-enforcing and motivating their kids and kids being willing to work. If one falls down, the level of education the kid gets drops. But to place all the blame on the teacher for every instance of educational failure is completely unfair.

In my own experience, my daughter does spelling tests every week but when doing written work her spellings are allowed to be incorrect. If I tell her something is spelled wrong she says "the teacher says it's ok". Same for grammar. So the teachers are also to blame on a ground level in some instances.

Highlighted the key phrases there for you; too many people take their own experiences in some instances and paint all teachers in every instance with the same brush. From that statement, it strikes me your daughter's teacher, singular, could be argued to be failing in her job to an extent. It doesn't mean all teachers are to blame for all failings.

ash23

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Of course not. But the implication seemed to be that poor literacy is all down to teachers. Teachers need parents to back up the learning with teaching of their own as well.

Yes but it can't be ignored that a fundamental part of education is teaching children to read and write! And as an educator a teacher plays a big part in that.

Highlighted the key phrases there for you; too many people take their own experiences in some instances and paint all teachers in every instance with the same brush. From that statement, it strikes me your daughter's teacher, singular, could be argued to be failing in her job to an extent. It doesn't mean all teachers are to blame for all failings.

I don't believe I said that all teachers are to blame for anything. I used various "in my opinion, in my experience" etc etc.
But if my daughters teacher is failing then so are other teachers no doubt.
Sad truth of it is, my daughters current teacher is paid far more than her teacher last year (based on length of being a teacher) but the teacher last year was 20 times the teacher than the one this year.

Which is why I said wages should be performance based and also that nepotism should be done away with.

Lord TSC

Not going to argue about nepotism. I could rant all day on how I've been having difficulty finding teaching jobs due to it. :P

Out of interest though, do you want to outline how you'd reward teachers based on preformance? Please, present a system which is fair and based on rewarding teachers on preformance

ash23

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Not going to argue about nepotism. I could rant all day on how I've been having difficulty finding teaching jobs due to it. :P

Out of interest though, do you want to outline how you'd reward teachers based on preformance? Please, present a system which is fair and based on rewarding teachers on preformance

Well much the same as in the private sector. A managerial role in the school for them to assess the teachers (basically a principal role). Assessment based on a combination of work ethic, dedication, attendance, grades in the class. But obviously said manager would know about the school, the area it was in and the challenges a class presented. Pretty much what happens in the private sector.

But of course, until the nepotism and back scratching stops, that wouldn't work because the person wouldn't be impartial.
Hence why the two are linked for me.

stripysocks85

Nepotism exists in EVERY profession.

It's USUALLY all about who you know, not what you know, and don't pretend to preach any differently.

stripysocks85

ash23 wrote: »

Yes but it can't be ignored that a fundamental part of education is teaching children to read and write! And as an educator a teacher plays a big part in that.





I don't believe I said that all teachers are to blame for anything. I used various "in my opinion, in my experience" etc etc.
But if my daughters teacher is failing then so are other teachers no doubt.
Sad truth of it is, my daughters current teacher is paid far more than her teacher last year (based on length of being a teacher) but the teacher last year was 20 times the teacher than the one this year.

Which is why I said wages should be performance based and also that nepotism should be done away with.

How do you know how much she is paid?
New/young teachers often have a different approach with things.
Of course there are good and bad teachers.

I don't know how a teacher's performance can be fairly judged though. Some classes post more difficulty than others, different needs, different requirements. How can these things be taken into account?

ash23

stripysocks85 wrote: »

How do you know how much she is paid?
New/young teachers often have a different approach with things.
Of course there are good and bad teachers.

Civil servant pay scales are in the public domain.
Her teacher last year is about 23 and has been teaching for 2 years. I don't even think she is permanant.
Her teacher this year is in her 50s, has been a teacher in the same school for the last 30 odd years.

I think it's safe to say the teacher this year is on a higher salary.

And no, nepotism isn't in every profession. Oh and I addressed the issue of how to assess teachers. Someone working in the same environment would be familiar with the different problems/disadvantages in their own schools. That's how private sector and other public sector workers are appraised, by the senior staff who work with them every day.

mattjack

ash23 wrote: »

Yes but it can't be ignored that a fundamental part of education is teaching children to read and write! And as an educator a teacher plays a big part in that.





I don't believe I said that all teachers are to blame for anything. I used various "in my opinion, in my experience" etc etc.
But if my daughters teacher is failing then so are other teachers no doubt.
Sad truth of it is, my daughters current teacher is paid far more than her teacher last year (based on length of being a teacher) but the teacher last year was 20 times the teacher than the one this year.

Which is why I said wages should be performance based and also that nepotism should be done away with.

That's an amazing discrepancy between the standards of two teachers, to say one teacher is twenty times worse than another would be worth presenting the issue to the board of management at the very least.

It would even suggest that some weaker kids gained absolutely nothing at all from the weaker teacher.

Was it a general perception from the parents of all the kids in the class ?

OldNotWIse

kraggy wrote: »

You can kiss goodbye to any decent education system and any decent teachers if you have them working the same hours and having the same holidays as someone working in say an office.

You have no clue what's it's like to be responsible for the education, safety and general wellbeing of 30+ children. I've seen teachers bitten, spat at been sent over the edge because of particular students.

Do you know what it's like to deal with the unpredictability of a child with ADHD or pyschological or emotional problems suddenly go mental inside the enclosed space in which you work, and attempt to keep everyone on task and protected from injury?

It's not a 9-5 job because if it were, you'd have a spiked increase in mental illness amongst teachers. It's pysically and emotionally draining. A teacher can't even go to toilet when they want!

30+? Really? Where??

ash23

mattjack wrote: »

That's an amazing discrepancy between the standards of two teachers, to say one teacher is twenty times worse than another would be worth presenting the issue to the board of management at the very least.

It would even suggest that some weaker kids gained absolutely nothing at all from the weaker teacher.

Was it a general perception from the parents of all the kids in the class ?

Oh for gods sake. It's an expression. Hyperbole etc. :rolleyes:
And I didn't say this years teacher was 20 times worse. I said the other teacher was 20 times better. I'm sure the standard of the teacher this year is perfectly adequate. However that still doesn't take away from the fact that the teacher last year was far better.

I haven't exact figures for you but last year my daughter loved school. Now she dislikes it. The kids all call the teacher this year Miss Cockroach and general consensus is that she is very cross and very mean.
Whereas they sang the praises of the last teacher.


Having met both I would agree with them.

OldNotWIse

Formosa wrote: »

I heard student teachers on newstalk this morning complaining about the low pay they will get compared to their older, more established colleagues.

Their command of the English language was abysmal. How many times can someone use the word "like" out of context?

Are standards really gone that low?

No offence but I find it ironic that in a post bemoaning bad grammar, you could say something like, "Are standards really gone that low?"

mattjack

ash23 wrote: »

Oh for gods sake. It's an expression. Hyperbole etc. :rolleyes:

I haven't exact figures for you but last year my daughter loved school. Now she dislikes it. The kids all call the teacher this year Miss Cockroach and general consensus is that she is very cross and very mean.
Whereas they sang the praises of the last teacher.


Having met both I would agree with them.

I wasn't being smartarsed.

You're showing your own arrogance now resorting to sarcasm and talking about name calling and a mean cross teacher.

ash23

mattjack wrote: »

I wasn't being smartarsed.

Your showing your own arrogance now resorting to sarcasm and talking about name calling and a mean cross teacher.

What?
You asked me a question as to why the teacher this year was worse. You asked me the general consensus about the teacher. I answered you. Unfortunately those doing the judging of said teacher are aged 8-9 and that's what I hear from them.

Miss Cockroach? Is that you?

Bopidyboo

Shorter holidays for teachers maybe but not students.

mattjack

ash23 wrote: »

What?
You asked me a question as to why the teacher this year was worse. You asked me the general consensus about the teacher. I answered you. Unfortunately those doing the judging of said teacher are aged 8-9 and that's what I hear from them.

Miss Cockroach? Is that you?

Like I said I wasn't being smartarsed,

kids calling teachers names suggest lack of respect and you calling me names explains a lot.

stripysocks85

Calling teachers names/nicknames & agreeing with ash23? Disappointed. To be fair, I've encountered such parents.

There's nothing I detest more, than meeting with a parent and hearing 'Oh well I've had a chat with X mother and she says X Y or Z'. I think it's so disrespectful. And maybe not in your case, as it seems to be the older teacher you have quips with, but in my experience, parents seem to think just because I'm a younger teacher that I don't know how to teach properly and think they're within their right to dictate.

Anyway. Off point now really. Must remember the OP, being should school holidays be shorter. In my opinion, no. But then I would say that wouldn't I!

The holidays are one of the perks of the jobs, just like paid staff parties, company cars, the use of the internet/phone all day, lunches, bonuses etc are in other areas.