Why can't school holidays be shorter

ash23

mattjack wrote: »

Like I said I wasn't being smartarsed,

kids calling teachers names suggest lack of respect and you calling me names explains a lot.

Emmm, where did I call you a name?
I was actually genuinely wondering if by your reaction to what I said the kids had said, are you the teacher in question because I can't see why you're taking it so personally. And I wasn't going to use the teachers real name.

You weren't being smart arsed, fair enough. But I still don't see why you're getting so wound up about the opinions of a group of kids about a teacher they dislike.

stripysocks85 wrote: »

Calling teachers names/nicknames & agreeing with ash23? Disappointed. To be fair, I've encountered such parents.

There's nothing I detest more, than meeting with a parent and hearing 'Oh well I've had a chat with X mother and she says X Y or Z'. I think it's so disrespectful. And maybe not in your case, as it seems to be the older teacher you have quips with, but in my experience, parents seem to think just because I'm a younger teacher that I don't know how to teach properly and think they're within their right to dictate.

Stripysocks, I don't really understand your last post.
I agreed with my daughter that the teacher was very mean and very cross. Mainly because of a variety of instances where she pulls petty stunts on kids. Like putting up all the childrens pictures on the wall apart from one child. Game playing with a gang of 8 year olds.
Or when I advised her at the PT meeting that my daughter was no longer enjoying school and was told she was grand because she had friends and good grades and I was over reacting, no child likes school.
Or when she singled out a child for having shabby shoes and told her to get her parents to buy new ones.
There are countless instances of this kind of behaviour from the teacher. I don't claim to know how to teach. But I do know how to treat kids with respect.

But of course, you all assume the parent in this instance is the problem and not the teacher.

mattjack

stripysocks85 wrote: »

Calling teachers names/nicknames & agreeing with ash23? Disappointed. To be fair, I've encountered such parents.

There's nothing I detest more, than meeting with a parent and hearing 'Oh well I've had a chat with X mother and she says X Y or Z'. I think it's so disrespectful. And maybe not in your case, as it seems to be the older teacher you have quips with, but in my experience, parents seem to think just because I'm a younger teacher that I don't know how to teach properly and think they're within their right to dictate.

Anyway. Off point now really. Must remember the OP, being should school holidays be shorter. In my opinion, no. But then I would say that wouldn't I!

The holidays are one of the perks of the jobs, just like paid staff parties, company cars, the use of the internet/phone all day, lunches, bonuses etc are in other areas.

And free chalk ?

mattjack

ash23 wrote: »

Emmm, where did I call you a name?
I was actually genuinely wondering if by your reaction to what I said the kids had said, are you the teacher in question because I can't see why you're taking it so personally. And I wasn't going to use the teachers real name.

You weren't being smart arsed, fair enough. But I still don't see why you're getting so wound up about the opinions of a group of kids about a teacher they dislike.

OK

stripysocks85

mattjack wrote: »

And free chalk ?

And all the free photocopies off my backside that I can get!!! :P

Oh no wait, we've to pay for the paper

mattjack

stripysocks85 wrote: »

And all the free photocopies off my backside that I can get!!! :P

Oh no wait, we've to pay for the paper

And all those infamous staff parties , I remember one Christmas party I was when...........I better not say to much.

kraggy

OldNotWIse wrote: »

30+? Really? Where??

Plenty of primary schools in Dublin for starters. I know this for a fact as I've taught classes that were greater than 30+. The pupil-teacher ratios talked about in the press are averages.

In Deis schools they are much lower. But in mainstream areas, 30+ is not quite common, but does occur.

stripysocks85

kraggy wrote: »

Plenty of primary schools in Dublin for starters. I know this for a fact as I've taught classes that were greater than 30+. The pupil-teacher ratios talked about in the press are averages.

In Deis schools they are much lower. But in mainstream areas, 30+ is not quite common, but does occur.

34 boys in a 4th class near me

mattjack

ash23 wrote: »

Emmm, where did I call you a name?
I was actually genuinely wondering if by your reaction to what I said the kids had said, are you the teacher in question because I can't see why you're taking it so personally. And I wasn't going to use the teachers real name.

You weren't being smart arsed, fair enough. But I still don't see why you're getting so wound up about the opinions of a group of kids about a teacher they dislike.



Stripysocks, I don't really understand your last post.
I agreed with my daughter that the teacher was very mean and very cross. Mainly because of a variety of instances where she pulls petty stunts on kids. Like putting up all the childrens pictures on the wall apart from one child. Game playing with a gang of 8 year olds.
Or when I advised her at the PT meeting that my daughter was no longer enjoying school and was told she was grand because she had friends and good grades and I was over reacting, no child likes school.
Or when she singled out a child for having shabby shoes and told her to get her parents to buy new ones.
There are countless instances of this kind of behaviour from the teacher. I don't claim to know how to teach. But I do know how to treat kids with respect.

But of course, you all assume the parent in this instance is the problem and not the teacher.

Your posting is ridiculous now, you post first then think about it, edit it, post again and then edit some more.

Machine gun posting at it's finest.

ash23

mattjack wrote: »

Your posting is ridiculous now, you post first then think about it, edit it, post again and then edit some more.

Machine gun posting at it's finest.

Actually, what happens is I post. Then I see someone has posted abother question so I add a response to my last post rather than posting one post after another.

Seeing as the editing in my post doesn't alter the post other than to add to it, I don't see what your problem is to be honest. The addition to my post was completely aimed at another poster.

You're being a bit pedantic.

mattjack

ash23 wrote: »

Actually, what happens is I post. Then I see someone has posted abother question so I add a response to my last post rather than posting one post after another.

Seeing as the editing in my post doesn't alter the post other than to add to it, I don't see what your problem is to be honest. The addition to my post was completely aimed at another poster.

You're being a bit pedantic.

Stripysocks85 !!!!!!!!!!!

Wake up and pay attention !!!!!!!!!!!!!

gagiteebo

OldNotWIse wrote: »

30+? Really? Where??

I have 32 in a 5th year class and 30 in a first year class, it's not that uncommon and yes it is difficult or maybe because we have so many 'perks' we should just shut up and dream of the 3 months off doing nothing.

OldNotWIse

stripysocks85 wrote: »

34 boys in a 4th class near me

Gawd When I went to primary we had 32 in our class and this was one of the bigger ones. I thought class sizes were meant to be coming down. We had so many people in our school that we were not even allowed to run in the playground at lunchtime. Then again, I don't think it did us any harm

OldNotWIse

stripysocks85 wrote: »

Nepotism exists in EVERY profession.

It's USUALLY all about who you know, not what you know, and don't pretend to preach any differently.

I disagree, private companies are far less likely to get away with it.

Lord TSC

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I thought class sizes were meant to be coming down.

How could they be? Less teachers are being employed, while the number of students enrolling increases year on year. With no new teachers being brought in, of course class sizes are going to increase

OldNotWIse

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

How could they be? Less teachers are being employed, while the number of students enrolling increases year on year. With no new teachers being brought in, of course class sizes are going to increase

Sorry I meant as in, I thought they were trying to bring them down.

RuailleBuaille

Gee Bag wrote: »

Couldn't argue with that,

But I do have a serious problem with grossly overpaid teachers sitting on their holes for months of holidays while getting paid. Teachers whining about cuts in their pay because it is not fair on the children. Teachers not being sacked if they are utterly incompetent ( I heard one of their union monkeys the other day claiming there is no such thing as a bad teacher!) etc., etc.

A teacher's salary is spread out over the year, same as anyone else's. Teachers don't get paid for 'sitting on their holes', they get paid for the work they did over the year.

dillo2k10

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I dont think the OP was wrong to point out that most of us get 20/21 days per year while teachers get an awful lot more. That's just the simple, plain truth and whether we agree with it or not is one thing, but what amazes me is tha amount of posters here trying to blatantly deny it lol

Most people get 20/21 paid days off per year.

Teachers are not getting paid for their time off.

ash23 wrote: »

I never said it was the states responsibility. I actually don't think the kids need shorter holidays. I do think teachers should work more though as stated in my previous posts.

I was just pointing out that saying we shouldn't query longer working hours for teachers/kids because we should be all fluffiness and light about having them at home as much as possible isn't necessarily a valid argument.

Oh and me working full time is not to my or my daughters detriment.
The alternative is to live on welfare. Plus I like my job and don't want to be at home with her all the time.
Each to their own.

Do you think that teachers should be paid for this extra work?

ash23 wrote: »

Because a huge number of parents are trying to split 20-40 days holidays between them to cover 83 days that the kids aren't in school. A lot of kids, my own included, spend the majority of their time off school in childminders or creches. My daughter has been off for a week and a half for Easter and is dying to get back to school.
Yeah I'd love to be able to coo about the time I get to spend with her in the holidays but the statement you quoted doesn't ring true for everyone.

Parents knew when having children and choosing their profession that they would get a set time off and their children would get a lot more time off.

I can't find the post now, but I seen someone posting that planning time isn't.

kraggy wrote: »

Who supervises the children while the teacher plans? What do you mean it's factored into the timetable? It's not. We plan outside of normal school hours. We don't just leg it once the bell goes. But people like you think that because the kids leave at time x, that the teacher follows them out the door. They don't.

You appear to be a primary school teacher, and I don't think it is factored into the time table, but it is for secondary school teachers.

You may not just run once the bell rings but many teachers do unfortunately. In my little brothers school the teachers car park goes from full to about 15% within 15 minutes of the bell ringing.



I agree that salary should be based on quality but in reality thats just not possible. There are some teachers that should be on €7,000p/a and there are some that deserve €100,000p/a. I know that was true in my secondary school. There were teachers that would stay around for hours after school and there were those that gave up their breaks and holidays to do field trips and trips to europe (which they paid for themselves)

They should be much more accountable, there was a teacher in my younger brothers school who was a real nasty piece of sh*t. She would show up smelling like alcohol, sometimes drunk and with hangovers, she fell asleep a few times and spoke in a nasty way to the kids. There was nothing the school could do about it. But that is the exception to the rule.

Most teachers were great in my school, but there was one that should have just been shot and dumped in the Liffey, just read out of a book and couldn't care less. Then there were the ones who really cared and would do anything to help.

Lord TSC

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Sorry I meant as in, I thought they were trying to bring them down.

Yeah, I know. Sorry, didn't mean to be snarky. My point is they say they want to bring them down, but then they also cannot afford to bring in any more teachers. So how can they reduce class sizes if they aren't allowed bring in new teachers

ceegee

OldNotWIse wrote: »

stripysocks85 wrote: »

Nepotism exists in EVERY profession.

It's USUALLY all about who you know, not what you know, and don't pretend to preach any differently.

I disagree, private companies are far less likely to get away with it.

Nepotism is rife in private companies, take a look at the board of any big Irish company, do you think the Quinn group went looking for the best talent and they all happened to be Seans kids? How do you think the tendering process went when Bill Cullen needed lackies for his tv show?
Same story in USA and UK tv/movie/music industry.

Ive yet to work for a private company where nepotism didnt occur.

solerina

On class sizes, we have a 5th year maths class with 35 in it and a third year english class with 33 in it....most classes in our school are around the 30 mark. Pupil teacher ratio is going up so these classes will be small in years to come !!

vamos!

ash23 wrote: »

Fine I take your point about evenings. But there's no way you're preparing for classes throughout the mid terms, xmas and easter and summer breaks.



Not true. i work in financial sector and we have 15 min break in the morning and half an hour for lunch. I see the teachers from my daughters school in the cafe every lunchtime (obviously a few stay but they take it in turns) so obviously it varies from place to place.
I also know that in my daughters school, to go to the staff room during the lunch break (45 mins break) you better have a good excuse....like a missing limb.




hmmmm, for the last 5 years my daughters school have finished at 12pm for 2 days to facilitate PT meetings. Again, it differs in different schools obviously. Add to that the various training days and other days off/half days for miscellanous reasons.

Teaching hours are fantastic if you can secure a full-time job. Most teachers these days do much more than their timetabled hours. The flexibility of being allowed to do your prep when you want to is great. I have spent most of today grading work. I also have the next module for my TYs prepared (2 days last week) and printed out, so all I need to so is photocopy when I get back. I don't mind doing this work but do wonder where some posters think the revision notes, corrections, interactive whiteboard resources, songs, extra classes, games etc come from, if not from the teacher using their own time to do them? Surely some of the posters are parents and can see the obvious work that goes into revision notes, booklets, certificates, website, school show, open evening, sports day, teams, Church ceremonies, graduation, debate team, school tours that last until 8pm, lunchtime clubs, homework clubs, Young Scientists, Green Flags, cake sales and other fundraisers ertc etc etc?
If we were to remove the flexibility by making teachers stay in the building until 5 just so parents could see the cars and feel that the teachers are working, teachers would do the extra time (5hours a week or so). What most wouldn't do, however, is the 8 hour Saturday, the 2 days during the midterm and all of the extra hours most of us do know. Most of us actually do more work in our own time than non-teachers can imagine. Ditto for extra-curricular etc.


As for your point about teachers having the audacity to be in a coffee shop... surely you see how sad and petty it is when it comes up on your screen???

OldNotWIse

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Yeah, I know. Sorry, didn't mean to be snarky. My point is they say they want to bring them down, but then they also cannot afford to bring in any more teachers. So how can they reduce class sizes if they aren't allowed bring in new teachers

No worries, I agree!

Gin Fizz

I used to love school holidays as a kid. Even back then adults used to complain that we had too many. I think we probably did:D

OldNotWIse

dillo2k10 wrote: »

Most people get 20/21 paid days off per year.

Teachers are not getting paid for their time off.


.

Does this mean their wages stop during the summer holidays? Does that not just mean they get their annual pay spread over nine months? Also, if I wanted to take three months off (even at my own expense) I'd be told no problem...but dont come back.

stripysocks85

Teachers are paid a salary so the wages are spread over fortnightly payments. It just so happens, we are paid during holidays. We are not paid as such, for the time off.

Anyway /teacher bashing.

Bring me more beer!

Kaner2004

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

No, its all about fairness. If I only have 20 days holidays a year, why should a teacher, who enters on a good wage be entitled to over three times that. Whilst working a shorter day.

All workers should be entitled to the same basic holidays, particularly those in the public sector. After all we pay their wages.

Someone who only has 10 days a year holidays would think yours are excessive. Its all relative.

RuailleBuaille

ash23 wrote: »

No teachers actually mentioned the poor literacy levels and that is something they are responsible for.

Just want to say that yes, as a teacher, enabling children with their literacy and numeracy skills form the largest basis of my job. As a primary teacher, there are 12 subjects (not including religion) that are to be taught on the curriculum. At the very most, this means I have 45 minutes a day to have a discrete reading lesson. 40 minutes in a class of 20+ means I can't get to hear everyone reading in one lesson so I try and spread it out over the day and the week. If the only time a child is reading is when they are with me then how much progress do you think they will make? I can't begin to tell you the hassle trying to get some parents on board with this, that reading MUST be done at home and made enjoyable. A child's education is not confined to the hours they are in school. I take responsibility for my job, not all parents do the same. (Same for teachers also!)

To put it simply, if you were learning to drive and only spent 20 minutes practising with your teacher 5 days a week, how much progress would you expect to make? A teacher is responsible for enabling children to acquire the skills they need to read, write and compute, but not solely responsible.


Edit: Team Shadowclan beat me to it!

OldNotWIse

stripysocks85 wrote: »

Teachers are paid a salary so the wages are spread over fortnightly payments. It just so happens, we are paid during holidays. We are not paid as such, for the time off.

Anyway /teacher bashing.

Bring me more beer!

I get paid "during holidays" too, and to me (for my 20 days) I consider that I am being paid FOR my holidays. I dont tell other people that the pay is actually a late payment for work I did in the weeks/months before...

OldNotWIse

Kaner2004 wrote: »

Someone who only has 10 days a year holidays would think yours are excessive. Its all relative.

And of course those who have sixty days a year off would be considered to have excessive annual leave by teachers..oh wait, teachers cant consider anyone else's leave "excessive" because nobody gets more than them. Duh

stripysocks85

I give up.

I get paid for the holidays. Big deal. They're nearly at an end now, and then I've to work TEN WHOLE WEEKS until I get another 8 weeks off! How will I survive!

Can't justify my holidays to anyone, so I'll bloody well enjoy them

C'est la vie!

Feeona

stripysocks85 wrote: »

I give up.

I get paid for the holidays. Big deal. They're nearly at an end now, and then I've to work TEN WHOLE WEEKS until I get another 8 weeks off! How will I survive!

Can't justify my holidays to anyone, so I'll bloody well enjoy them

C'est la vie!

I don't get paid for my holidays

So I'm going to waste the rest of these Easter holidays begrudging you and your paid holidays :P. Then when I get a phone call at nine o'clock Monday morning to teach a class I've never met before, I'll be full of the joys :pac:

dillo2k10

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Does this mean their wages stop during the summer holidays? Does that not just mean they get their annual pay spread over nine months? Also, if I wanted to take three months off (even at my own expense) I'd be told no problem...but dont come back.

Teachers are paid for contact hours, I believe its 20 per week for secondary school teachers, some would have to do more than that.

They are not paid from 9am - 4pm. They do prep work in their own time (All the time outside class is their own time)

The government holds onto a certain amount of that pay and spreads it out evenly over the year, so as there are no cash flow problems.

Thats fine, but that's what YOU signed up for, but, if your company closed down for 3 months of the year and told you that it will be fine because you will get the rest of your salary spread out over the 12 months. Would you be happy about it? No. But would have of the country be on boards bitching because you get 3 months off no, they would be felling sorry for you because your loosing out on 3 months pay?

the purple tin

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Well God forbid parents would have to deal with their children. Better offload them back to the schools as quickly as possible so the teachers can be driven to the nut-house instead :rolleyes:

Long hols will put the parents in the nut-house, short hols and the teachers end up there.
Either way I hope there's plenty of spare beds in the nut-house

oppenheimer1

Kaner2004 wrote: »

Someone who only has 10 days a year holidays would think yours are excessive. Its all relative.

20 days holidays is the statutory minimum for employees. No one, bar the self employed (who make that choice themselves) gets less.

Kaner2004

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

20 days holidays is the statutory minimum for employees. No one, bar the self employed (who make that choice themselves) gets less.

I think you might find you are wrong there. Not up to me to educate you though. Im not a teacher, but maybe one of the kind souls here will help you.

Jogathon

"Marking a class worth of maths tests is a small amount of work, no more than half an hours work. They're not slaving into the night over a spreadsheet."

Not true! A class maths test can take 3-4 hours to correct. 33 children in one class- ten mins per copy.


"They could be doing more than classroom work, preparing lessons and extra one-on-one tuition for students that need it for example."

One on one outside of school hours? Impossible as every teacher would be afraid of being accused of something. I would NEVER put myself in that position. Sad, isn't it?

MaroonAndGreen

leave the kids alone

Jogathon

OldNotWIse wrote: »

kraggy wrote: »

You can kiss goodbye to any decent education system and any decent teachers if you have them working the same hours and having the same holidays as someone working in say an office.

You have no clue what's it's like to be responsible for the education, safety and general wellbeing of 30+ children. I've seen teachers bitten, spat at been sent over the edge because of particular students.

Do you know what it's like to deal with the unpredictability of a child with ADHD or pyschological or emotional problems suddenly go mental inside the enclosed space in which you work, and attempt to keep everyone on task and protected from injury?

It's not a 9-5 job because if it were, you'd have a spiked increase in mental illness amongst teachers. It's pysically and emotionally draining. A teacher can't even go to toilet when they want!

30+? Really? Where??

In many schools. The 28 pupil/teacher includes learning support and resource teachers in the school. So most classes in mainstream schools have 30 or upwards pupils.

oppenheimer1

Kaner2004 wrote: »

I think you might find you are wrong there. Not up to me to educate you though. Im not a teacher, but maybe one of the kind souls here will help you.

Its not really up to me to educate you either but here goes.

"The Organisation of Working Time Act 1997 provides for a basic annual paid leave entitlement of 4 weeks."

Thats from Citizens Information and is a basic entitlement of every full time employee.

byhookorbycrook

Bar our infant classes all our classes are 30+. The DES calculates the pupil teacher ratio by including all the admin principals and special ed. teachers,so it can say oooh, average is 28 pupils per teacher,even though it counts teachers that are not mainstream class teachers.

Ireland currently has the second-highest average class size in the EU.
Figures released by the government last year showed more than 106,000 pupils are taught in classes of more than 30.

Kaner2004

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Its not really up to me to educate you either but here goes.

"The Organisation of Working Time Act 1997 provides for a basic annual paid leave entitlement of 4 weeks."

Thats from Citizens Information and is a basic entitlement of every full time employee.

Not what you said.

You said "20 days holidays is the statutory minimum for employees. No one, bar the self employed (who make that choice themselves) gets less."

You should have specified you were only talking about full-time employees.

Would you be happy if teachers got no holidays, as long as the rest of us got no holidays either. Wouldnt that be fair? and the OP should be happy too, because it would save the country a fortune.

I get 25 days paid holidays. Would you like to take 5 of mine off me while you are at it. Im sure we could all afford to give up 5 days holidays to help the economy. But only if every single person in the country gave up 5 days hols. Oh, i forgot, we only should take holidays off of people who have more than ourselves.

But I know plenty of people who get far less than 20 days paid holidays. ANd plenty of people who have to work through their holidays because they want to impress their bosses.

oppenheimer1

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Bar our infant classes all our classes are 30+. The DES calculates the pupil teacher ratio by including all the admin principals and special ed. teachers,so it can say oooh, average is 28 pupils per teacher,even though it counts teachers that are not mainstream class teachers.

Ireland currently has the second-highest average class size in the EU.
Figures released by the government last year showed more than 106,000 pupils are taught in classes of more than 30.

And what do you think should be done about it bearing in mind increasing the cost of the overall education budget is not an option?

All I've heard on this forum from teachers is criticism of others ideas but not one creative solution from the teachers themselves. Do they not teach critical thinking and problem solving up in St Pats?

oppenheimer1

Kaner2004 wrote: »

Not what you said.

You said "20 days holidays is the statutory minimum for employees. No one, bar the self employed (who make that choice themselves) gets less."

You should have specified you were only talking about full-time employees.

Would you be happy if teachers got no holidays, as long as the rest of us got no holidays either. Wouldnt that be fair? and the OP should be happy too, because it would save the country a fortune.

I get 25 days paid holidays. Would you like to take 5 of mine off me while you are at it. Im sure we could all afford to give up 5 days holidays to help the economy. But only if every single person in the country gave up 5 days hols. Oh, i forgot, we only should take holidays off of people who have more than ourselves.

But I know plenty of people who get far less than 20 days paid holidays. ANd plenty of people who have to work through their holidays because they want to impress their bosses.

Its fairly obvious I was talking about full-time employees. Someone who works one day a year isn't entitled to a months paid holidays and I did think that would need to be explained to anyone - as it is obvious.

I would object to anyone getting paid from the public purse receiving excessive amounts of paid holidays. Teachers get three times as much holidays as the rest of the PS - it is obviously unfair, outdated and wasteful.

If I was getting the hourly rate of a new graduate teacher with zero experience in my job I would be starting on a salary of over €55k (and I only do a 35hr week). Its simply excessive for the amount of work they do. So they should do more hours to bring the hourly rate down (which I would prefer) or take a pay cut.

Robdude

I'm sure there are good historical reasons for the school calendar being the way it is. Probably to do with farmers and harvest time or something, if I had to guess.

The problem is, it's been 'that way' for too long for anyone to want to change it. Certainly not the working professionals who choose academia for their careers. I don't hold that against them, but if you want to work 40-50 hours per week 48-50 weeks per year; you don't become a teacher/professor.

The truth is (and I'm sure I've seen at least one study to support this) students would learn better/retain more knowledge without the large gaps. There is no practical reason for things being the way they are any more. But I don't expect it to change any time soon.

I'll even accept that some people feel 'kids need to be kids'; but I look at college students as adults (even if they don't act like it) and I see them 'working' 20-40 hours per week, 35 weeks out of the year and thinking they've accomplished something. It's always amazing to see a 30 or 40 something return to college after working full-time and see them kick ass in the classroom - because they had the mindset that school is a job and treat it as such.

Kaner2004

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Its fairly obvious I was talking about full-time employees. Someone who works one day a year isn't entitled to a months paid holidays and I did think that would need to be explained to anyone - as it is obvious.

I would object to anyone getting paid from the public purse receiving excessive amounts of paid holidays. Teachers get three times as much holidays as the rest of the PS - it is obviously unfair, outdated and wasteful.

If I was getting the hourly rate of a new graduate teacher with zero experience in my job I would be starting on a salary of over €55k (and I only do a 35hr week). Its simply excessive for the amount of work they do. So they should do more hours to bring the hourly rate down (which I would prefer) or take a pay cut.

No. Not obvious at all. You were implying that everybody except self-employed gets a minimum of 20 days holidays, which is clearly not true.

Im sure teachers would have no problem working more hours - but not for the same yearly pay.

If someone wanted to make me work more hours than i currently do for my yearly salary, personally I would insist that they adjust my salary UP to reflect the extra work I am doing. Divide my yearly pay by the amount of hours I currently work in a year for my hourly rate, then multiply the new number of hours by that hourly rate and we have my new salary. Only fair. I work more, they pay me more.

Robdude

Kaner2004 wrote: »

No. Not obvious at all. You were implying that everybody except self-employed gets a minimum of 20 days holidays, which is clearly not true.

Im sure teachers would have no problem working more hours - but not for the same yearly pay.

If someone wanted to make me work more hours than i currently do for my yearly salary, personally I would insist that they adjust my salary UP to reflect the extra work I am doing. Divide my yearly pay by the amount of hours I currently work in a year for my hourly rate, then multiply the new number of hours by that hourly rate and we have my new salary. Only fair. I work more, they pay me more.

While I can't disagree with your logic (I would certainly *want* to get paid more); in practice, at least in the private sector - you'd either continue working at a reduced rate or go find a job with better pay/less hours.

The argument people are making against teachers is that they are grossly overpaid because they've created an effective monopoly. There is no competition for teachers or of their wages. People who feel teachers are overpaid are convinced that if public schools slashed salaries the existing teachers *couldn't* find better paying jobs, because there is no demand for them.

I might be grossly overpaid right now. But if I'm in the private sector, I'm not impacting the tax payers in a negative way if I am overpaid and better workers and more efficient companies will either displace me or displace the company that employees me.

I'm not saying teachers are overpaid, I'm just saying people who feel teachers are overpaid for the work they do aren't going to see it that way.

chiloutus

Where is your source for this?
I know your wrong and I'll prove it with a source
http://www.tui.ie/pay-and-conditions/salary-scales-.1578.html
There it says that the starting salary for a teacher is just short of 31k and the finishing salary, after 30 years of work is just under 60k
Honestly, how can you spout things you have no idea about??

*snip*

If I was getting the hourly rate of a new graduate teacher with zero experience in my job I would be starting on a salary of over €55k (and I only do a 35hr week). Its simply excessive for the amount of work they do. So they should do more hours to bring the hourly rate down (which I would prefer) or take a pay cut.

oppenheimer1

chiloutus wrote: »

Where is your source for this?
I know your wrong and I'll prove it with a source
http://www.tui.ie/pay-and-conditions/salary-scales-.1578.html
There it says that the starting salary for a teacher is just short of 31k and the finishing salary, after 30 years of work is just under 60k
Honestly, how can you spout things you have no idea about??

Do you want me to do the maths for you? Per hour rate for a teacher is a little over €40 for a graduate. If you work a normal year (ie one that doesn't have massive holidays) that hourly rate would equate to over €55k per annum.

Again, I thought that was pretty clear from my post.

evolving_doors

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

And what do you think should be done about it bearing in mind increasing the cost of the overall education budget is not an option?

All I've heard on this forum from teachers is criticism of others ideas but not one creative solution from the teachers themselves. Do they not teach critical thinking and problem solving up in St Pats?

Ok so , I'm a teacher and I wouldn't actually mind if the year was a little longer, so there ya go...

Now, would you mind the fact that schools opening longer will cost more?
Transport, administration, light, heating, maintenance, curriculum reform.

Its obvious teaching bashing season is well and truly open.

Anyone want to give out about any other professions?

Dentists.... Boo... Make them pull harder to get our money's worth. What are they proposing to get us out of this mess they've caused.

oppenheimer1

Armelodie wrote: »

Ok so , I'm a teacher and I wouldn't actually mind if the year was a little longer, so there ya go...

Now, would you mind the fact that schools opening longer will cost more?
Transport, administration, light, heating, maintenance, curriculum reform.

Its obvious teaching bashing season is well and truly open.

Anyone want to give out about any other professions?

Dentists.... Boo... Make them pull harder to get our money's worth. What are they proposing to get us out of this mess they've caused.

The major cost in the education system is salary, Yes it would create a small increase in other ancillary costs, but these would be minor. These costs could be covered by firing poorly performing teachers.

Reforms would need to be a multi pronged approach.

Btw, healthcare is another protected system and is also in dire need of reform. Transparency and true competition is needed in fields like dentistry, pharmacy and consultant fees.