Can gardai act on reports of unrestrained infants in cars?

KazDub

A few weeks ago I phoned the garda station in Blanchardstown to report a man and wife with two unrestained children in their car in the shopping centre car park. The smallest child was only a few months old, being held by the mother on the back seat. The older child was about seven or eight, sitting on the front passenger seat with no seat belt. They were preparing to leave their parking spot when I asked the father why he was driving around without having his children securely belted into the car.
Needless to say he didn't take to kindly to my question, accused me of being racist (he was a white East European), threatened to report me for racism and eventually drove off in a hurry when I told him that I was taking a note of his registration and reporting him to the Gardai. Now, in all honesty I didn't approach the man in any kind of a belligerent way. I tried speaking to him on a parent-to-parent way, 'Wouldn't you feel terrible if someone crashed in to you and your children were badly hurt as a result of not having child seats in the car?'. He told me that his wife was breastfeeding so couldn't put the child in a car seat. Completely and utter rubbish, obviously. Anyway, they didn't even have car seats in their car.
So, I phoned the Garda station, gave them the details, explained the conversation and asked if there was anything that they could do. The Garda told me that as the car was registered in Ashbourne there was nothing he could do except to leave a note on their system mentioning my report of the unsecured children in a car. That way, if the parents were ever stopped for not having their children securely fastened in the car there would be a record of it being previously reported.
All this talk lately of enforcing a no smoking rule in cars carrying children got me thinking. For all the laws that the goverment pass and all the requests to report incidents such as the one I observed, can the gardai actually do anything about reported incidents, rather than ones they observe directly themselves? It still bothers me, some weeks later, to think that these parents are driving their lovely daughters around without any attempt to secure them in the car.
Since then I've noticed so many other parents driving around without a hint of a car seat or seatbelt over their children.
What can we, as ordinary citizens do to help and what responsibility do the gardai have (if any) when these incidents are reported to them?

ResearchWill

Simple answer is yes you as a citizen may bring a case as a common informer in the District court. It would be difficut but if you want to do your research there is nothing in law that can stop you.

KazDub

Sorry I may have worded it badly, I don't actually want to bring the family to court. I was hoping for a more productive response from the Garda to be honest. I was reporting someone for breaking the law by not having their children restrained in the car. As a parent I can't understand how any mother or father could do this and as a citizen I was surprised that there seems to be no way of the Gardai following this up. Even something as simple as a call to the house, request proof by the parents that they have suitable restraints for their children, let them know they've been reported and it's a serious offense rather than them thinking that some racist busybody has nothing better to do with her time. If they can get away with it then they'll continue to endanger their children.

ResearchWill

But a complaint to AGS other than a warning would lead to court. The fact that the matter is now or so you have been told recorded in Pulse, if that person is stopped by AGS it will more than likely lead to a prosecution. Other than a prosecution what can anyone do, the father told you off, I can more than likely see him doing the same to any well meaning Garda. So the only thing that should be done is a trip to the DC. IF you dont want that to happen then dont make a complaint because that is where a complaint can end up.

But in relation to your OP the ordinary person can tell AGS and AGS can decide if the matter is worth following up. The fact is that the parent is in breach of (Road Traffic regulations, not sure off hand which ones but a quick google search would state which ones.) would mean a conviction in the DC and possible fine etc. in my opinion the only way to get people to sit up and take notice is a trip to the Courts, and a fine.

coylemj

You made a face to face complaint to the guy, he basically told you to p1ss off, what good would a doorstep visit from the Gardai do? A trip to court is the only option, anything else will just repeat the obvious futility you encountered when you spoke to the guy in person.

KazDub

ResearchWill wrote: »

IF you dont want that to happen then dont make a complaint because that is where a complaint can end up. But in relation to your OP the ordinary person can tell AGS and AGS can decide if the matter is worth following up. The fact is that the parent is in breach of (Road Traffic regulations, not sure off hand which ones but a quick google search would state which ones.) would mean a conviction in the DC and possible fine etc. in my opinion the only way to get people to sit up and take notice is a trip to the Courts, and a fine.

So it basically boils down to the fact that unless I make this my personal mission to get this guy to court or insist that the gardai make it their business to chase it up, there are few factors to deter parents from breaking the law in relation to securing children in cars.
Well, I'll continue to report parents to the gardai as and when I see them driving around with kids unsecured in cars. I can only hope that it doesn't boil down to me having to chase it up each time for something to be done. I guess this answers my question in relation to smoking in cars with children. Any amount of laws can be passed but nothing shall actually change or be enforced.
That's kind of depressing actually.

drunkmonkey

OP your going the right way about getting a clatter off someone. You approached a. complete stranger in a car park and told him how he should look after his children. It may of worried you but at the same time it was none of your business.
We have one of the highest murder rates in Europe, you'll end up telling the wrong person off someday and it could go very wrong very quick.
The Gardaí need to take reports seriously but also a pinch of salt as you could merely be getting revenge for some related encounter with our foreign friend, who's to say the kids weren't strapped in. Its your word against a man and his wife.
Leave the Garda work to the Gardaì.

Zambia

I would concur with drunkmonkey

If you get involved chances are it really will not go anywhere.

Is this a ticket or a court visit in Ireland?

source

Op can I ask did the Garda ask of you were willing to make a statement and go to court as a witness, and what was your response?

The reason I ask is, if you told the member that you wouldn't do this, then they have no proof that the incident ever took place, and may go a long way to explaining why nothing was done. As if there is no witness/proof there will never be a prosecution. And prosecuting people for breach of the law is AGSs bread and butter, so to speak.

Also drunk monkey is spot on, be careful who you're approaching in the street. You never know who you're talking to, or how they'll take your well meaning approach.

page1

I would be interested too in hearing did AGS ask would you make a statement/appear in court.

The OP said that the couple had no car seats in the car. Surely given the potential seriousness of carrying around children in the car unrestrained on top of the fact it is illegal would warrant some further action by the Gardai.
A doorstep visit from a Garda might just scare him enough into buying/using them in the future.
Would it really be that inconvenient for him to make a quick call to the local Garda station and ask someone to call to the house. A look inside the car would reveal that there are no car seats and he could then query the man saying he had a report that he was carying them around unrestrained.
Just because it could be a spurious report made for revenge doesnt mean the Gardai should use that as an excuse not to investigate.

The chances of the man actually being stopped randomly by that Gardai are slim, so that means he is free to put his children in danger and break the law all because a Garda didnt actually see him do it.

Marquis de carabas

Ok just to put a stop to everyone who thinks the Guards should call around based on a phone call such actions are no longer allowed unless in exceptional circumstances.

The Garda Siochana Act 2005 curtails a Guards ability to act independently where no direct evidence exists. What this means is your Guard in this scenario is leaving himself open to a serious complaint should he call to the house to have a word.

While must people might think this is mad the purpose of such a restriction is to prevent spurious accusations or harassment by the Gardai.

If people see someone breaking the law then a statement is the only way to go.

theAwakening

what section of the 2005 Act governs this, is this section 8 you're referring to?

Marquis de carabas

theAwakening wrote: »

what section of the 2005 Act governs this, is this section 8 you're referring to?

No sorry to be more precise taking action when no direct evidence was available was always contrary to proper procedure but over the years was allowed more or less as a way of dealing with matters especially in rural areas.

I think its Section 48 of the act as I understand throws back personal responsibility to the Guard. While not letting the state off the hook it basically takes away any protection a Guard might have had of being taken to court himself should he do something which wasn't justified.

Five or six years ago a Guard could call to your door and accuse you of something without proof. You of course could take offence and complain but by and large nothing would be done and you'd have little or no recourse.

Now days that same Guard could be done for defamation of character, harrasment etc. I'll be the first to admit Im not a legal expert but from a practical footing it has put a stop to such informal cautions.

theAwakening

so AGS, after receiving a 'tip off' essentialy, cannot now question the person concerned in accorandce with the judges rules, unless some form of admissible evidence already exists against them? or are you referring to AGS administering their own informal cautions on the basis of such a tip-off?

KazDub

To answer the question, no, I was not asked if I would make a formal statement. I would have no problem doing this as this is something I feel so strongly about. I would have no hesitation assisting the gardai enforce the law by standing up in court and repeating what I had seen. I wasn't given the choice though.
If you're a grown adult I don't care if you don't want to wear a seatbelt. It's your own informed decision, no matter how stupid. For an adult to put a child in such a potentially lethal position though is negligent and deserving of some sort of punishment.

Kosseegan

Marquis de carabas wrote: »

No sorry to be more precise taking action when no direct evidence was available was always contrary to proper procedure but over the years was allowed more or less as a way of dealing with matters especially in rural areas.

I think its Section 48 of the act as I understand throws back personal responsibility to the Guard. While not letting the state off the hook it basically takes away any protection a Guard might have had of being taken to court himself should he do something which wasn't justified.

Five or six years ago a Guard could call to your door and accuse you of something without proof. You of course could take offence and complain but by and large nothing would be done and you'd have little or no recourse.

Now days that same Guard could be done for defamation of character, harrasment etc. I'll be the first to admit Im not a legal expert but from a practical footing it has put a stop to such informal cautions.

Section 48 of the Act does no such thing. It simply deals with a situation where a guard commits an actionable wrong. The state assumes vicarious liability. It is not an actionable wrong to call to somebodys door. If the person tell the guard to leave there is a trespass, but not otherwise. Where a guard is not a witness to an incident himself he has to be careful but he should certainly investigate. It would be very rare for a guard to witness a murder. He would certainly call to the home of someone who may have information in order to investigate a murder.

Marquis de carabas

Kosseegan wrote: »

Marquis de carabas wrote: »

No sorry to be more precise taking action when no direct evidence was available was always contrary to proper procedure but over the years was allowed more or le6ss as a way of dealing with matters especially in rural areas.

I think its Section 48 of the act as I understand throws back personal responsibility to the Guard. While not letting the state off the hook it basically takes away any protection a Guard might have had of being taken to court himself should he do something which wasn't justified.

Five or six years ago a Guard could call to your door and accuse you of something without proof. You of course could take offence and complain but by and large nothing would be done and you'd have little or no recourse.

Now days that same Guard could be done for defamation of character, harrasment etc. I'll be the first to admit Im not a legal expert but from a practical footing it has put a stop to such informal cautions.

Section 48 of the Act does no such thing. It simply deals with a situation where a guard commits an actionable wrong. The state assumes vicarious liability. It is not an actionable wrong to call to somebodys door. If the person tell the guard to leave there is a trespass, but not otherwise. Where a guard is not a witness to an incident himself he has to be careful but he should certainly investigate. It would be very rare for a guard to witness a murder. He would certainly call to the home of someone who may have information in order to investigate a murder.

Well a guard wouldn't receive a complaint of a murder would he? He'd have a body. Nor would he just pop around to your house and accuse you of murdering someone just because he got a phone call that you did.

Your trying to compare two types of incidents whose circumstances in no way match.

If an individual or a guard didn't like you what would stop them from accusing you of something all the time? It might never go to court but what would people think if a patrol car was pulling up outside your door all the time.

I normally try and see where someone is coming from but if you honestly think a guard accusing someone without proof (in other words just a phone call) and investigating a known crime (i.e murder, arson etc where there is physical evidence) are the same thing then what's the point in discussing this.

Marquis de carabas

theAwakening wrote: »

so AGS, after receiving a 'tip off' essentialy, cannot now question the person concerned in accorandce with the judges rules, unless some form of admissible evidence already exists against them? or are you referring to AGS administering their own informal cautions on the basis of such a tip-off?

There is no problem with applying the judges rules based on information received even if its not admissible.

But that's for the investigation of a know crime. So if you have a crime be it assault, criminal damage etc then yes a guard may in fact ask anyone if they have information about it and often do.

But the scenario here is an alleged offence. The guard isn't calling to enquire but to accuse an individual of something.

I see the op has stated he will make a statement and that's how it should be pursued. Once a statement has been made it can be put to the alleged offender. After caution he can deny or accept it.

page1

So we have to wonder then why the Garda didnt inform the OP of this and ask was he willing to make a statement so it could be pursued further. Merely putting the info on Pulse seems a cop out, no?
I would consider not restraining 2 children, one an infant, a very serious matter and one the Garda should have been eager to pursue. But he obviously couldnt have been bothered and this is evident by him not even asking the op was he willing to make a statement.

OP did he take your details?

KazDub

My name and mobile number were taken but the Garda told me there wasn't much he could do as it wasn't a Garda issue. I just remembered that now, as a few weeks have passed.

coylemj

KazDub wrote: »

My name and mobile number were taken but the Garda told me there wasn't much he could do as it wasn't a Garda issue. I just remembered that now, as a few weeks have passed.

Clearly the enforcement of traffic regulations is a Garda issue. The mistake you made was phoning a Garda station, the person you spoke to probably spends all of his/her shifts in the station so isn't in a position to investigate a relatively minor traffic offence.

You may have had a better chance of success if you stopped a Garda traffic patrol car and asked them to follow it up. Investigating the offence you observed involves the Gardai taking a witness statement from you and issuing summonses against the defendant and a witness summons to you.

All things considered, most Gardai are only inclined to investigate minor traffic offences when they themselves are the only witnessess because prosecuting such offences is far easier and involves less paperwork. Phoning a Garda station to say that you just saw a guy on a pedal cycle crashing a red light will get you nowhere, you encountered the same response.

purehoor

ccant say anything about the laws or garda but i can say good on ya for sayin it. too many tits driving around in their cars like this. its a disgrace. hopefully itll sink into his head and maybe play it a bit safer. at least you had the spine to say something.

TylerIE

drunkmonkey wrote: »

OP your going the right way about getting a clatter off someone. You approached a. complete stranger in a car park and told him how he should look after his children. It may of worried you but at the same time it was none of your business.
We have one of the highest murder rates in Europe, you'll end up telling the wrong person off someday and it could go very wrong very quick.
The Gardaí need to take reports seriously but also a pinch of salt as you could merely be getting revenge for some related encounter with our foreign friend, who's to say the kids weren't strapped in. Its your word against a man and his wife.

While the OP risked some injury by confronting the driver, the OPs actions may cause the parent to reconsider the importance of having a child seat. Ensuring the safety of Children should be everybodys business.

The Irish mentality to many road offences is "none of my business", then after an injury/death its "the poor fella", "shur theres never any guards", "he was in an awful state staggering to the car" and "he was always flyin'" - etc, yet few people do anything about it.

I have and colleagues have seen the first hand effects of unrestrained children, and the guilt and panic experienced by those that are involved with collisions where others are injured/killed. Even if an innocent third party were to collide with that car the younger child could end up anywhere and the innocent third party would face many many sleepless nights - owing to the parents laziness.

Leave the Garda work to the Gardaì.

The OP hasnt crossed boundaries. He merely spoke to the driver re the safety aspects and contacted the Gardai (as is appropriate to do). While the first action may not have been too safe, the second is perfectly reasonable.

Marcusm

ResearchWill wrote: »

Simple answer is yes you as a citizen may bring a case as a common informer in the District court. It would be difficut but if you want to do your research there is nothing in law that can stop you.

Would he have a cause of action? For RTA offences, the prosecutorial authority is specified which I thought ruled out private/common informer prosecutions.

ResearchWill

Marcusm wrote: »

Would he have a cause of action? For RTA offences, the prosecutorial authority is specified which I thought ruled out private/common informer prosecutions.

Can you provide link to legislation where DPP or other body is the only body to prosecute road traffic offences. I am sure I once saw a private prosecution for dangerous driving but I may be incorrect in my recollection.

A good link on common informer http://www.euro-justice.com/member_states/ireland/country_report/444/