Honing Wedge Style Straight Razors

Dramatik

Does anyone have any experience with honing these? I've been restoring a John Creswick (Sheffield) Notched Blade and I just can't seem to get the thing shaving sharp As far as I can see I've an even bevel on both sides but when I touch the edge of the blade it doesn't feel sticky at all and won't shave arm hair, usually by this stage my razors will do this easily. Also when I'm honing it, it does seem to be undercutting the water on the hone which confuses me as usually the blade won't undercut it if the bevel's not set properly
The blade itself is over 6/8 I think and the other wedges I've honed sucessfully have been smaller than this, I don't know if this is a factor or not. By the looks of it, it could possibly be a true wedge as well. I'm running out of options and I can't think of what I could possibly be doing wrong. Does anyone have any idea's? I can post pics if needed. I really want to get this one sharp as I can feel by the weight of the blade that it will be a nice shaver once sharp.
Maybe I need to use more layers of tape, maybe 2 then 4 after the bevels been set??? how much would one usually use of one of these old razors?

MadsL

No experience on wedges, but honing a razor recently I experienced the same frustration. Turned out I have over honed, a few strop type strokes fixed it and I was able to move up.

Could you have a wire edge?

Dramatik

Yeah I've tried that already but with no luck, don't think it had/has a wire edge because before I hone a razor I always draw the edge across a glass lightly, I think that would knock off a wire edge if there was one, correct me if I'm wrong though. I think I'm going to have to send it off to be honed, usually this is a last resort for me as I hate spending money on something if I have the tools to do it myself, I've another warranted stubtail as well that I've the same problem with but to a lesser extent as I can get it sharp but I can't get it to pass the hangin hair test, though I know it can as I had it passing it before. There's obviously some small detail I'm missing out, but what it is, I do not know.

MadsL

A wire edge happens during honing, not before. Try some strop strokes on your 8k or so and refinish.

Whats your honing progression?

Dramatik

I set the bevel on 1k naniwa chosera with one layer of tape then onto coticule with milky slurry (around 40+ laps), by this stage the razor would usually be popping arm hair. Once I get there I add a extra layer of tape and a couple of drops of water to dilute the slurry to about half the consistency it was before (around 40 laps), then finally I do around 50 laps on plain water. Then finally strop it, 40x canvas, 80x leather. Where would the 8k mark be in my progression?

MadsL

Where would the 8k mark be in my progression?

Sorry to be slow responding, just back from Coachella.

Coticules are roughly 6k - 8k according to some, then again others think grit ratings are meaningless when it comes to naturals. So to answer the question... 8k is probably the end of your progression.

What I really meant was try a couple of back (stropping style) strokes at the end of your sharpening phase (probably a milky slurry stage with you) and before the polishing phase starts (probably your watery slurry) that should take care of any wire edge.

SRP wiki recommends;

Overhoned edges can usually be easily cured with several backhoning (spine leading) laps, preferably on the next coarser grit stone (ie: overhoning occurs on the 8k then drop to the 4k to correct it). Once the burr is removed from a deteriorated edge, proceed with normal honing. Always make sure that the bevel is well set before going to finer grits. As you can see from the last statement this is exactly what the pyramid method was designed for, to avoid an overhoned edge...

http://straightrazorplace.com/srpwiki/index.php/Overhoning#Test_of_overhoned_edges

For me I'd probably want a Thuringian or a Slate at the end of the Coticule as a finisher just to really get the HHT right. That said I have always been able to shave from a Coticule.

MadsL

Just spotted this...

"Coticules and BBWs are known to never overhone."

Bang goes that theory...:(

Dramatik

MadsL wrote: »

For me I'd probably want a Thuringian or a Slate at the end of the Coticule as a finisher just to really get the HHT right. That said I have always been able to shave from a Coticule.

Yeah I know, eventually I'll get around to getting one, just haven't seen one for the right price yet. That said the Coticule I have is quite hard, it would probably take half a day to set a bevel with, so I get a nice edge anyways. Any suggestions on finishing hones? Vintage or New? What have you got?

MadsL

I have a Celebrated Water Hone. A tiny handheld finisher in a wooden box. Bought from ebay for about €30 I think - prices have gone up recently (last one sold for $87) as people are more convinced that there were made by Escher. Certainly they are a similar Thuringian stone and quite soft. That's my main finisher - although I recently scored a fibre optics kit at a garage sale for $5 - it has films in there up to 0.3 microns (equivalent to diamond paste) I've only tried it once so far but it gave me my smoothest ever edge.

I also have what i think is a Llyn Idwal slate hone, very hard and fine finisher. I usually include a few laps on that after the Coti and before the Celebrated.

This guy is selling a Welsh set of finishers that are getting good reviews if you want to stay natural.

And don't forget the famous Chinese 12K - cheap as chips. Last time I checked they were less than €12.

Dramatik

Sorry for the late reply, I was looking at some of those Celebrated Water Hone's for the last while, as I prefer honeing on the skinny shaped hones but I found them to be too expensive for what they are. Those Welsh ones seem to be good value for money, I think I'm gonna go for them instead, thanks for the info

hitemfrank

There is another way to hone - cheap too.

It's called lapping film. Have a read through some of this thread and make a decision about it.

Here is a link to some lapping film (note the microns and approx grit ratings). You can also get some here and here.

I haven't tried it out but I did get some 3 micron in the post today and am waiting on some 1 and 5 micron.

I can probably give you some feedback next week (if I get enough time to rehone a razor in the coming days).

Drakus

Would be very interested in your results. Having read that thread on BB a while ago I also have some lapping film on the way from CousinsUK and Workshopheaven buit being new to honeing I am not 100% sure about the progression. Would you use this film in conjunction with a finishing stone like a coticule or leave out the stone altogether.

I did get a small coticule but am having a hell of a time getting my blade shave ready.

hitemfrank

I'll let you know how I get on when the ones I'm waiting on arrive from Workshopheaven.

I plan to use my 1k Chosera stone to set the bevel then I'll use 5 micron film (2.5k grit), 3 micron film (8k) and finish on 1 micron film (12k)

It's hard to get a grit rating on natural stones but I think the coticule I have is around the 8k mark so I'll be skipping it.

If you know where your coticule would fall in the grit progression you could use it along with the film. You would only get the feel for the grit of your coticule by using it really.

The only thing I would say is to make sure you use the same lubricant on the stone as on the film if you do use them together.

MadsL

Hitemfrank, are you using a lapping plate with the films? I got a glass plate in the fibre-optic kit but it does feel a bit like the edge of the plate is a little high (designed for centre not edge use) that said 0.3 micron film gives me an amazing edge. Up around a 30k Shapton at a fraction of the cost.

What is your plan for keeping the films flat?

The only thing I would say is to make sure you use the same lubricant on the stone as on the film if you do use them together.

I would not allow anything other than water on my coticule.

hitemfrank

I've heard of mineral oil (baby oil effectively) being used on a coticule as well as on other whetstones.

I'm with you on this - I wont be putting oil on my coticule.

I'll either try pick up a small section of float glass or go to a DIY store and have a look and see if I can find a flat tile.

If that doesn't work I'll relap my 1k Chosera and use that as a smooth surface.

I may actually get one of these as the flat surface. *edit* I wont be getting one of those. Just went through the checkout process to see how much the shipping would be - €40 - and there's €5 of VAT to pay too.

If I could fine a granite surface plate for a decent price I'd pick that up. Would this be worth you getting?

Drakus

Hi guys, have you had a look at this lapping plate (http://www.workshopheaven.com/tools/Float_Glass_Lapping_Plate_360mm_x_220mm_x_10mm.html ) from workshopheaven for €17.50 plus del. I was thinking of using a glass tile myself but may consider the above.

hitemfrank

Works out as about €47 delivered - again shipping is more expensive than the plate but I guess that's to be expected on a 2kg piece of glass.


I think I'll get an estimate on delivery for this one.

Drakus

Thanks for the heads up. That plate on ebay looks pretty good depending on the shipping costs. I remember many years ago getting a piece of class cut locally to replace a broken wing mirror on my car. I don't know if the shop is still there but I may check it out, it was just a shop that sold mirrors and glass and they would cut you a piece of glass of your choosing. I suspect any piece of cut glass is going to be flat enough, do you think?

Another idea that occurred to me, I bought a Salter scales that has a flat plat of glass about 7" x 8" and 5mm thick on top. I think it's just stuck on there. I think the scales cost about €20 in Debenhams, again would the likes of that glass be flat enough for purpose.

hitemfrank

I would imagine they should be. Most glass these days is probably float glass (that's a guess on my part I could be completely wrong) so as long as the edges of the glass on the scales aren't slightly raised you should be able to use them.

I also remembered that I have a flat piece of glass as the lid on the tank I keep my gecko in so I'll probably try that out.

hitemfrank

Finished honing up a 5/8 full hollow using lapping film about 20 minutes ago.

I'll try it out in the morning to make sure I've got the hang of the film before I move onto the wedge that needs a bit work doing to it.

Drakus

hitemfrank can you say what progression you used, did you just use the film or did you need to finish on your coticule. My razor is fairly new but has lost it's shave ready edge and my coticule skills are just not up to speed or my coticule is just a tad small or difficult for a beginner(24mm tapering to 19mm wide x 160mm long). I have some 0.3, 1 and 3 micron film on the way and I hopeing this will do the trick.

hitemfrank

My progression was this;

1k Chosera -> 5 micron film -> 3 micron film -> 1 micron film -> 1 micron film with damp paper under it.

Think I did about 90 laps on the 1k then 60 or 70 on each progression of film. I did about 40 laps on the film with paper under it.

As you can see by my guessing on how many laps I did, I'm not exactly methodical. 60 laps per film should see you on your way to a sharp edge though.

I do more laps on the 1k to make sure the bevel is set. After that it's just polishing really.

MadsL

What type of HHT did that progression give you? (If you use HHT test at all)

http://www.coticule.be/hanging-hair-test.html for those who are not sure what I'm talking about.

I usually find HHT2 or 3 off the coti but HHT 4 after stropping. I got HHT 4 on the 0.3 micron film after a very light touch up on the coti from a razor that was dragging horribly.

I like these films.

hitemfrank

I'm not one for using the HHT. I just try shave some hair on my arm while the edge is off the skin (maybe 5mm). My arm hair is really fine so if it gets cut I'm happy to go on to trying to shave with it.

After shaving with the razor this morning I can say I'm a fan of the films too. It was a really nice smooth and sharp edge on the razor.

What I will say though is that honing on a natural stone, such as a coticule, feels nicer than using the film. To be honest had I known about the films when I was starting out honing I probably wouldn't have gotten a coticule

hitemfrank

I shaved with my near wedge this morning, after going back to the 5 micron film and onwards last night. It was definitely better than it was but I'll probably need to go back to the Chosera 1k to get it spot on.


The amount of hone wear in a couple of spots shows just how warped this thing actually is. Kudos to whoever owned this originally and managed to hone it and shave with it.


But all in all, lapping film is pretty damn good.

MadsL

One of these days I'll hone that Barnescone wedge - I was holding it as a present for my brother but he never took to straight razor shaving.

The one on the right here...

hitemfrank

I remember seeing a picture of that razor before. Shoulderless, a bit of a French point (or Irish point if you want), a slight smile and a thumb notch. I approve of the design of that razor

Hone it up and get shaving with it man.

On a slightly related note, have you managed to get a workspace yet for razor restoration?

Smokeyskelton

MadsL wrote: »

One of these days I'll hone that Barnescone wedge - I was holding it as a present for my brother but he never took to straight razor shaving. [/IMG]

Hi MadsL,

I hope you are enjoying your new life, how are things over there?

The Taylor's Eye Witness on the left looks good, (familiar too )

Smokey

Dramatik

MadsL wrote: »

This guy is selling a Welsh set of finishers that are getting good reviews if you want to stay natural.

Well after much deliberation I ended up going for the Welsh finishers. There was a lot of mixed feelings posted on the net about them so I decided the only way to really see what they were like was to buy them and try them for myself.

They arived on Friday so I've only honed one razor so far with them, which was a Boker King Cutter. I drew the razor across a glass and proceded to set the bevel on the chosera 1k (somewhere around 40-60 laps) I then moved onto the Coticule with some slurrey (40 laps or so) Next I added another layer of tape and a couple of drops of water (40 laps or so) and repeated the process till I was honing on plain water on which I did (60 laps).

Next I moved onto the dark welsh stone with slurrey and did the dilucot method (40 laps) for each dilution until I was down to plain water on which I did (60 laps) I repeated the process for the other two hones, the purple one and last of all the green one.

Finally I stropped the razor, I think I did 60 laps on canvas then 120 or so on leather. By this point the razor seemed nice and sharp and was passing the HHT easily up and down the razor.

So on Sunday I got to shave with it. The shave was quite good I'd probably give it about an 8/10. While the shave was clean, I did find the edge a tiny bit harsh although I did not experience any irritation of any kind. I usually base my opinion of the sharpness of a razor on how well it performs against the grain on the neck underneath the chin area as this seems to be the toughest area for a razor to shave on my face, even a professionally honed razor will need a slight bit of momentum to get through this area.

All in all it was a good shave but not 100 times better then what I would get off the Coticule. I thought that since there was three extra hones added to my progression that I would experience a greater difference. Now this's only the first razor I've honed with them so I'm gonna try a couple more razors when I've time, to rule out any problems with the razor itself. As we all know there's a lot of varibles which can effect a razor so it's hard to give a definate review of these hones without trying multiple razors.

One thing I feel is the hone's could be lapped better, would there be anyone on here that would have the time and tools to lap them for me? I would also like for someone else to try the hones for themselves and hear their opinions on them as it's always good to have someone else's opinion to rule out any technical aspects. If there was someone in Dublin it would probably be better as I could meet you with the hones, as they are quite heavy and might cost a lot to post especially since there's three of them plus the slurry stones as well. If anyone's interested, let me know, thanks.

Dramatik

I thought I needed a corse hone to lap the hones but through a little bit of research I found you can lap them with sandpaper on a flat surface. As with most aspects of straight razor use it's really up to the user to learn/practice the required knowlege for themselves so I decieded I'd do it myself.

I started lapping them last night and I soon saw that they definatly needed to be lapped, I thought when I got the hone's that the small scratches on the face's of the stone's were just the texture of the hone itself but they were not. I only managed to get two of them done last night as each hone took approx half an hour to get one face of the hone flat using 240 grit, is it normal to take this long to flatten them? I suppose so since they're finishing stones and probably quite hard. I've never had to lap a hone before so I'm not really sure how long it generally takes. Also the ebay seller said not to go higher than 380 grit but I read elsewhere of people finishing them with 600 grit and then 1000 grit. I was wondering if anyone knows if there's a particular reason for not going higher than 380 grit?

Now the one's I have lapped do feel/look a hell of a lot smoother so I'm going to dull the razor again once I've finished lapping the final hone (hopefully tonight) and re-evaluate my opinions on the hones. Hopefully with a bit of luck I'll get better results this time.

Dramatik

I haven't forgot about this, I'm still testing these hone's. I've been getting very nice results lately with these hone's. Originaly I was using these hone's with slurry but I found this to have a negative effect on the edge compaired to using them with only water. However I plan on experimenting with a lighter slurry as I feel the heavier slurrey dulls the blade somewhat and maybe something can be gained by using a light slurrey before moving to water.

I'm really liking the feel of the edges I'm getting off them so far as they seem to keep the natural feel of the coticule whilst making the edge just that little bit keener which really helps during the against the grain pass. There's still many diferent methods I still have to try with these so it could be a while before I've explored all these different avenues. If anyone's thinking about these hone's I would recommend them but I would say to try them with just water first. Also if you already have a coticule you'd probably only really need the dark-greenish one so you could save yourself a bit of money there by just getting one instead of three. Just thought I'd post up incase anyone else was thinking about giving them a try.