How to revive the Irish language.

MysticalRain · 16-08-2012 4:51pm

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Since were quite able to drag ourselves out of the 70's and 80's problems while still retaining the teaching of Irish in school, and indeed have* or at least had a well educated population, I can't see how its removal has any actual bearing on the general level of education in this country, or on economic growth.

I know there are issues surrounding compulsion, university etc but lets just stick to the actual primary and secondary school teaching and learning, and the supposed "waste of time" issue.

*Though I am too far removed from the education system to know too much about it today, I know the levels of education here were very high and something we were all quite proud of.

There lies the point. It isn't the 70's/80's anymore, and our general level of education has stagnated. We have slipped down the PISA rankings, 25% of the adult population is functionally illiterate, a similar number have problems with basic math, IT literacy among the school leavers is generally poor, and we still do not have computer science as a subject at 2nd level. The only way we can fix those problems is through major reform of the entire school curriculum.

Lord TSC · 16-08-2012 4:51pm

Cú Giobach wrote: »

So where is the problem then I'm genuinely intrigued by that. I really thought you did care, if you don't then all is grand surely?

I care that people are forced to partake in a subject they don't care about. I don't care about the language, and I care about the compulsion nature of it. Ultimatly though, I don't care enough to get out there and protest about it on the street. I'll argue and debate it though on a forum board since that doesn't take much effort :P But it's not a big part of my life in anyway; when I close the internet page, my non-Irish life goes on without a second thought to the matter.

And, again I say, it all comes back to a level of resentment. If you want to revive the language, you've got to realise alot of people resent having to "learn" the language. I've wasted enough time over the school years, and won't waste more now on it in terms of going out and doing something to change the system. But the compulsion, the forcing it upon people, only means that a lot of people, once done the courses, will be quite happy to drop it and never need it again. Agan I say, you need to develop a passion in people at large and yet ignore the biggest passion-killer out there.

But whats the point of starting a topic up asking how to revive the language, which is really aimed thusly at people with no interest and is asking them what would revive their interest in the language, and then argue against one of the biggest complaints to the death?

Weirdly, it's never the anti-compulsion side that start up these topics; they inevitably always seem to be started up by the Revivalists.

An Coilean · 16-08-2012 5:05pm

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

I care that people are forced to partake in a subject they don't care about. I don't care about the language, and I care about the compulsion nature of it. Ultimatly though, I don't care enough to get out there and protest about it on the street. I'll argue and debate it though on a forum board since that doesn't take much effort :P But it's not a big part of my life in anyway; when I close the internet page, my non-Irish life goes on without a second thought to the matter.

And, again I say, it all comes back to a level of resentment. If you want to revive the language, you've got to realise alot of people resent having to "learn" the language. I've wasted enough time over the school years, and won't waste more now on it in terms of going out and doing something to change the system. But the compulsion, the forcing it upon people, only means that a lot of people, once done the courses, will be quite happy to drop it and never need it again. Agan I say, you need to develop a passion in people at large and yet ignore the biggest passion-killer out there.

But whats the point of starting a topic up asking how to revive the language, which is really aimed thusly at people with no interest and is asking them what would revive their interest in the language, and then argue against one of the biggest complaints to the death?

Weirdly, it's never the anti-compulsion side that start up these topics; they inevitably always seem to be started up by the Revivalists.

I get the not bothering to go out on the street and protest, but there is plenty of stuff you could do that would not take up any more time than posting here.

E-mail your local TD, start a Facebook group or online petition.

As for who starts these threads, have a search, plenty of them started to have a moan about how much is wasted on Irish and how useless it is.

Cú Giobach · 16-08-2012 5:36pm

MysticalRain wrote: »

There lies the point. It isn't the 70's/80's anymore, and our general level of education has stagnated. We have slipped down the PISA rankings, 25% of the adult population is functionally illiterate, a similar number have problems with basic math, IT literacy among the school leavers is generally poor, and we still do not have computer science as a subject at 2nd level. The only way we can fix those problems is through major reform of the entire school curriculum.

Sure the curriculum needs reform, and one of the biggest issues I see above is literacy, I would certainly put that above maths or computer science and language teaching and literacy do go hand in hand.

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

I care that people are forced to partake in a subject they don't care about. I don't care about the language, and I care about the compulsion nature of it. Ultimatly though, I don't care enough to get out there and protest about it on the street. I'll argue and debate it though on a forum board since that doesn't take much effort :P But it's not a big part of my life in anyway; when I close the internet page, my non-Irish life goes on without a second thought to the matter.

Ok, it just seems odd that someone who has no interest in something sees it as a "problem" that a government yields to the wishes of those that do.
Primarily because you say it's not just a problem they yielded to people who do care, but to a majority who do care. They according to you made the "popular" decision.
Though I fully understand and do believe minorities needs should be catered for by governments.

Thanks anyway, I was just intrigued by all that.

Interest in History · 16-08-2012 5:37pm

Cú Giobach wrote: »

What I am interested in, is the learning of language in general and will discuss the pros and cons of that, obviously including Irish.
Points I raise here are not surrounding compulsion, only questioning whether actually learning Irish is a negative or positive thing for the people of this island.

Certainly a very broad formulation of the question, which presumably is calling forth a plethera of varying answers.

Cú Giobach · 16-08-2012 5:54pm

Interest in History wrote: »

Certainly a very broad formulation of the question, which presumably is calling forth a plethera of varying answers.

Indeed, been having some great chats about language and fortunately not getting bogged down in the usual old arguments that these threads can produce, been there too many times and couldn't be arsed going there again.
Thanks for your interest.

FionnK86 · 16-08-2012 5:57pm

The power of the irish educational system to revive our language is insignificant compared to the power of the force

Lord TSC · 16-08-2012 6:10pm

An Coilean wrote: »

I get the not bothering to go out on the street and protest, but there is plenty of stuff you could do that would not take up any more time than posting here.

E-mail your local TD, start a Facebook group or online petition.

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here, but come on. You cannot be naive enough to think an online petition or Facebook group is enough to tackle the power of the Revivalist lobby groups. Online petitions at the best of time are useless, but they'd be absolutly pointless going up against the passion of the pro-compulsion people who have and will go out and protest on the streets.

opti0nal · 16-08-2012 6:17pm

An Coilean wrote: »

There are any number of polls on peoples attitude to the future of the Irish language, time and again the result has been that people are in favour of preserving and promoting the language.

These polls were commissioned and designed by the Irish language lobby and interpreted by them.

The biggest, and most accurate poll of of them all is: what language do almost all Irish people choose to speak on a daily basis?

Dangerous Man · 16-08-2012 6:29pm

You could try shouting at it...

WAKE UP! WAKE UP IRISH LANGUAGE!!!

An Coilean · 16-08-2012 6:49pm

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here, but come on. You cannot be naive enough to think an online petition or Facebook group is enough to tackle the power of the Revivalist lobby groups. Online petitions at the best of time are useless, but they'd be absolutly pointless going up against the passion of the pro-compulsion people who have and will go out and protest on the streets.

Ya, but most of the time they are not out on the street, protests are actually fairly rare, theres only been two in recent years to my knolowedge, and one of them was not even about compulsion.
They are on facebook, creating petitions, sending in emails and talking to their TDs.
All stuff you can do, and can encourage others to do, and it would not be any more work than the effort you have put into posting on this thread..

Interest in History · 16-08-2012 7:00pm

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Indeed, been having some great chats about language and fortunately not getting bogged down in the usual old arguments that these threads can produce, been there too many times and couldn't be arsed going there again.
Thanks for your interest.

Yes - again.

Given my slant, my interest became an investigation of the Revival of Irish as a political ideology. And so, the basic questions - Cui bono and who-whom came to the fore. Who is benefitting from this, who is the driver, and who is the driven? And like all ideologies The Revival contains a quasi-religious element and this adds its own spicy ingredient to the mix.

I'm trying to note any changes just now in the political support-base for the ideology supportive or the opposite. The politicos usually take mask their position on this. No conclusion yet.

It's time for me to quit the debate for a while. I'll be travelling.

Lord TSC · 16-08-2012 7:03pm

An Coilean wrote: »

Ya, but most of the time they are not out on the street, protests are actually fairly rare, theres only been two in recent years to my knolowedge, and one of them was not even about compulsion.
They are on facebook, creating petitions, sending in emails and talking to their TDs.
All stuff you can do, and can encourage others to do, and it would not be any more work than the effort you have put into posting on this thread..

I know the last time there was a topic like this, it coincided with some protest in Dublin (over the moving of an Irish office iirc). That was a group with posters, banners and the likes; a proper protest movement. I say this as a compliment to your side of the debate; your passionate. It just means that even if an online petition worked (and I'm of the opinion they never work on any topic), your side of the debate would mobilize to defend their beliefs and march about it.

An Coilean · 16-08-2012 7:08pm

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

I know the last time there was a topic like this, it coincided with some protest in Dublin (over the moving of an Irish office iirc). That was a group with posters, banners and the likes; a proper protest movement. I say this as a compliment to your side of the debate; your passionate. It just means that even if an online petition worked (and I'm of the opinion they never work on any topic), your side of the debate would mobilize to defend their beliefs and march about it.

Ya, in fairness that was a few students with nothing better to do.

No doubt they would come out an protest, but surely getting to that stage, and raising awareness of the issue is success in its self?

podgeandrodge · 16-08-2012 8:38pm

If you want a laugh and want to see what our taxes are being spent on have a look at the investigations carried out by the Office of An Coimisinéir Teanga. Not blaming them personally as they have to carry out the function, blaming the Official Languages Act that has this farcical waste of public money being foisted on us in the current environment.

http://www.coimisineir.ie/index.php?page=imscrudaithe&tid=32&lang=english

Clareboy · 16-08-2012 8:51pm

In order to revive the Irish language, we need to forget about govermment bodies and schools and try and foster a love of the language among the ordinary Irish people. I would suggest that Irish language classes for adults, whose Irish is ' rusty ' be set in every parish hall in the country. The classes could be taught by teachers and others who love the language and want to help others to learn it. Our native Irish language is the most beautiful thing that we have as a nation. With a little effort and imagination, it could be easily revived.

Interest in History · 16-08-2012 9:31pm

Clareboy wrote: »

Our native Irish language is the most beautiful thing that we have as a nation.

Can you start the process of engagement right now by giving us some examples that illustrate this richness and that connect to people's feelings?

Just do it, man!

Interest in History · 16-08-2012 9:41pm

Clareboy wrote: »

In order to revive the Irish language, we need to forget about govermment bodies and schools and try and foster a love of the language among the ordinary Irish people. .

Please define "we" as used in your sentaence.

It must be some group, obviously distinct from the "ordinary Irish people" whom you specify as the target of your action. The "we" must be a missionery group of some sort, I guess?

Reg Huindley, in his book "The Death of the Irish Language" characterises the response of the general population of Ireland to the Revival efforts of the governments as "structured evasion". Meaning that the population can't stop government actions, and that ostensively they must go along with them, but that they indirectly make sure that it all comes to nothing.

Interest in History · 16-08-2012 9:48pm

podgeandrodge wrote: »

If you want a laugh and want to see what our taxes are being spent on have a look at the investigations carried out by the Office of An Coimisinéir Teanga. Not blaming them personally as they have to carry out the function, blaming the Official Languages Act that has this farcical waste of public money being foisted on us in the current environment.

http://www.coimisineir.ie/index.php?page=imscrudaithe&tid=32&lang=english[/QUOTE]

Yes: don't miss those reports. And remember: everybody involved in producing them is getting a state salary and will get a state pension.

But try to find time to look at the Dáil reports on late night television so that you can see in action the buffoons who are the source of all this "official-government" nonsense. The people who were "Reviving Irish" in their fantasies while at the same time they were ruining us in reality. They have faces and names, you know.

indioblack · 16-08-2012 10:17pm

Interest in History wrote: »

Please define "we" as used in your sentaence.

It must be some group, obviously distinct from the "ordinary Irish people" whom you specify as the target of your action. The "we" must be a missionery group of some sort, I guess?

Reg Huindley, in his book "The Death of the Irish Language" characterises the response of the general population of Ireland to the Revival efforts of the governments as "structured evasion". Meaning that the population can't stop government actions, and that ostensively they must go along with them, but that they indirectly make sure that it all comes to nothing.

"Structured evasion" That's good, you have to hand it to them.
Didn't Sir Humphrey have the phrase "masterly inactivity"?
With my dealings with my Irish relatives it was their way of telling you that they wouldn't be doing what you want - but ensuring that you weren't offended by the refusal - in fact you were never entirely sure that they had refused at all.

Cú Giobach · 17-08-2012 8:50am

Interest in History wrote: »

Yes - again.

Given my slant, my interest became an investigation of the Revival of Irish as a political ideology. And so, the basic questions - Cui bono and who-whom came to the fore. Who is benefitting from this, who is the driver, and who is the driven? And like all ideologies The Revival contains a quasi-religious element and this adds its own spicy ingredient to the mix.

I'm trying to note any changes just now in the political support-base for the ideology supportive or the opposite. The politicos usually take mask their position on this. No conclusion yet.

It's time for me to quit the debate for a while. I'll be travelling.

Politics is something I don't really have much of an interest in and am therefore not qualified to discuss in the depth you are, so I couldn't get into a discussion on the issues you raise from a political perspective no matter how much I might want to.
But I can in part comment on your issues.

All over the planet the speakers of endangered languages are trying to ensure their languages will not die out in the face of encroachment by the world's major languages, and in many there is a growing emphasis on actual revival coming from both native speakers and people who are culturally linked to them but for historical reasons mainly speak the encroaching language.
Now because this is a worldwide phenomenon looking at our little part in this from a purely Irish political (or indeed just Irish) perspective, though interesting and well worth looking into, does not and cannot give a proper and well rounded view of why such things happen.
If you read/listen to the people involved in such revival movements worldwide the reasons become much clearer.
A good place to start is here, National Geographic's Enduring Voices Project.
We are not unique in this and because today we are very much on the edge of loosing so much after the industrialisation of the last century and the mass media of the last half century, people who aren't even connected with these disappearing languages and cultures are actually getting involved due to an "awakening" and realisation of what is happening.

I feel it is something inside most of us, this desire to preserve the unique, special and irreplaceable that sadly, often only becomes apparent when we actually get to the very edge, which although results in the saving of much, means we also loose a lot, and our small part in all this just seem to be a natural human response, and not some "quasi-religious" movement unique to this island.

Wibbs · 17-08-2012 9:52am

Clareboy wrote: »

In order to revive the Irish language, we need to forget about govermment bodies and schools and try and foster a love of the language among the ordinary Irish people. I would suggest that Irish language classes for adults, whose Irish is ' rusty ' be set in every parish hall in the country. The classes could be taught by teachers and others who love the language and want to help others to learn it.

The best of luck with that. 1) you'll be hard pressed to find the teachers and 2) you'll likely be faced with tumbleweed rustling through the parish halls. Look at that recent attempt fronted by the boxing chap whose name I'm afraid escapes me. Looked for 100,000 signups and barely got a quarter of that. As a nation we're happy to pay lip service, but its seems only as Bearla.

Our native Irish language is the most beautiful thing that we have as a nation.

Given the long list of beautiful things we can lay claim to, that's a tad of a stretch. It's most certainly a valuable part of our heritage, but the question is will it remain an active part of our futures.

Interest in History wrote: »

Please define "we" as used in your sentaence.

I'd be interested in that myself.

Reg Huindley, in his book "The Death of the Irish Language" characterises the response of the general population of Ireland to the Revival efforts of the governments as "structured evasion". Meaning that the population can't stop government actions, and that ostensively they must go along with them, but that they indirectly make sure that it all comes to nothing.

That right there pretty much sums the nations attitude to the language alright. For a visual representation the recent Carlsberg ad hit a few nails on the head on this score.

mickydoomsux · 17-08-2012 10:15am

The thing with language and its usage in general is that it is constantly evolving which is a good thing. For this evolution to take place a form of "natural selection" must take place with minority/unpopular languages being phased out and replaced by more popular ones.

We as a nation are being foolish by trying to hold onto a functionally dead language. The day of the Irish language has passed. It has been replaced by the superior, more useful language of English. The fact that we insist on keeping Irish compulsory in schools is embarrassing, it is an utter waste of time and teaching resources that could be better spent studying a real subject. It's the equivalent of a computer programmer in a modern company refusing to program in anything but Cobol on his 386 from the 90's.

Let the Gaelegoirs have their "culture and heritage" circle jerk on their own time and their own dime.

An Coilean · 17-08-2012 10:30am

mickydoomsux wrote: »

The thing with language and its usage in general is that it is constantly evolving which is a good thing. For this evolution to take place a form of "natural selection" must take place with minority/unpopular languages being phased out and replaced by more popular ones.

We as a nation are being foolish by trying to hold onto a functionally dead language. The day of the Irish language has passed. It has been replaced by the superior, more useful language of English. The fact that we insist on keeping Irish compulsory in schools is embarrassing, it is an utter waste of time and teaching resources that could be better spent studying a real subject. It's the equivalent of a computer programmer in a modern company refusing to program in anything but Cobol on his 386 from the 90's.

Let the Gaelegoirs have their "culture and heritage" circle jerk on their own time and their own dime.

Its sad to see such opinions being so prevelant, what you are arguing for is akin to cultural eugenics.

mickydoomsux · 17-08-2012 10:48am

Nah, it's just reality. "Culture" is a makey-uppy thing that humans espouse to give the tiny span of our species existance some deeper meaning.

Particular languages don't have an inherent "worth" regardless of how popular they are or aren't. They are a tool that can be changed, discarded or adopted.

Enkidu · 17-08-2012 11:19am

mickydoomsux wrote: »

"Culture" is a makey-uppy thing that humans espouse to give the tiny span of our species existance some deeper meaning.

Are you a Star Trek villain?

CruelCoin · 17-08-2012 11:39am

An Coilean wrote: »

Its sad to see such opinions being so prevelant, what you are arguing for is akin to cultural eugenics.

He's arguing for progress.

And in the distant future it will happen that the inevitable Chinese/English hybrid will push English out of the nest.
It will do so as it will be more usefull, more universal, better structured with proper assimilation of new words.

Just look at Irishs' take on new words. All it does is bastardise english words and put an accent on them. 20 years from now, if it survives that long, Irish will be unrecognisable as the language it is today, bloated with poorly adopted words.

Imagine a roads with many, many, many patches. Eventually there is hardly any original road left, and it is just better to tear it all up and relay it from scratch.

There is nothing wrong with this.

An Coilean · 17-08-2012 11:46am

CruelCoin wrote: »

He's arguing for progress.

And in the distant future it will happen that the inevitable Chinese/English hybrid will push English out of the nest.

There is nothing wrong with this.

No he is not, the idea that there are superior cultures and inferior cultures is backwords beyond description.

In the distant future there won't even be English, there will be a family of distinct languages decended from English, this notion of a world language is nonsence, its not gona happen.

As for Chinese, or Mandarin, that is the worlds biggest Language because of the size of the Chinese populaion, its not expanding beyond China.

Dear lord, the language you are posting in has more loan words than any other language in the world, it is actually more loan words than words that came from Old English at this stage. Perhaps it should be torn down too?

Seriously what kind of nonsence are schools teaching?

Edit: From reading another thread, I see what kind of ideology I am dealing with, so I will bow out of this discussion.

Cathyht · 17-08-2012 12:02pm

Surely it isn't nonsence they teach, but nonsense? That's what I was taught.

An Coilean · 17-08-2012 12:06pm

Cathyht wrote: »

Surely it isn't nonsence they teach, but nonsense? That's what I was taught.

You pointed out a dyslexic making a spelling mistake, how big of you.:rolleyes:

Cathyht · 17-08-2012 12:15pm

It tickled my fancy. My 'sence' of humour. How come the spell check didn't bring it to your attention, it is there to serve all bad spellers, it doesn't make distinction.

Cú Giobach · 17-08-2012 12:23pm

CruelCoin wrote: »

He's arguing for progress.

And in the distant future it will happen that the inevitable Chinese/English hybrid will push English out of the nest.
It will do so as it will be more usefull, more universal, better structured with proper assimilation of new words.

Just look at Irishs' take on new words. All it does is bastardise english words and put an accent on them. 20 years from now, if it survives that long, Irish will be unrecognisable as the language it is today, bloated with poorly adopted words.

Imagine a roads with many, many, many patches. Eventually there is hardly any original road left, and it is just better to tear it all up and relay it from scratch.

There is nothing wrong with this.

He's ---- for

.

And in the ----

it will happen that the

/English

will ---- English out of the nest.
It will do so as it will be more ----, more

, better

with

of new words.

look at

take on new words. All it does is

english words and put an

on them. -- years from now, if it

that long, ---- will be

as the

it is today,

with

words.

a roads with many, many, many

.

there is hardly any

road ----, and it is

better to tear it all up and

it from

.

There is nothing

with this.

See what I did there??

LeeroyJ. · 17-08-2012 12:26pm

mickydoomsux wrote: »

The thing with language and its usage in general is that it is constantly evolving which is a good thing. For this evolution to take place a form of "natural selection" must take place with minority/unpopular languages being phased out and replaced by more popular ones.

We as a nation are being foolish by trying to hold onto a functionally dead language. The day of the Irish language has passed. It has been replaced by the superior, more useful language of English. The fact that we insist on keeping Irish compulsory in schools is embarrassing, it is an utter waste of time and teaching resources that could be better spent studying a real subject. It's the equivalent of a computer programmer in a modern company refusing to program in anything but Cobol on his 386 from the 90's.

Let the Gaelegoirs have their "culture and heritage" circle jerk on their own time and their own dime.

Nothing more to add.

Grayson · 17-08-2012 1:04pm

An Coilean wrote: »

Its sad to see such opinions being so prevelant, what you are arguing for is akin to cultural eugenics.

No it isn't. letting something die that has had it's time isn't eugenics. eugenics would be trying to manufacture it's demise.

We've had compulsary irish for decades. We've had millions, maybe hundreds of millions spent on trying to revive it. And it's as bad as it's ever been. We are flogging a dead horse. Why should we continue to pour money into a project that is an utter, utter failure?

Grayson · 17-08-2012 1:09pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Given the long list of beautiful things we can lay claim to, that's a tad of a stretch. It's most certainly a valuable part of our heritage, but the question is will it remain an active part of our futures.

I think the actual country is more beautiful than the language. We could invest the time and energy spent teaching a dead language into teaching about the natural enviroment.

Considering we're actually killing the planet and our enviroment, I think teaching kids a respect for our natural world would be more important.

indioblack · 17-08-2012 1:27pm

mickydoomsux wrote: »

The thing with language and its usage in general is that it is constantly evolving which is a good thing. For this evolution to take place a form of "natural selection" must take place with minority/unpopular languages being phased out and replaced by more popular ones.

We as a nation are being foolish by trying to hold onto a functionally dead language. The day of the Irish language has passed. It has been replaced by the superior, more useful language of English. The fact that we insist on keeping Irish compulsory in schools is embarrassing, it is an utter waste of time and teaching resources that could be better spent studying a real subject. It's the equivalent of a computer programmer in a modern company refusing to program in anything but Cobol on his 386 from the 90's.

Let the Gaelegoirs have their "culture and heritage" circle jerk on their own time and their own dime.

Agreed.

Cathyht · 17-08-2012 1:29pm

R u sure it isn't 'nonsence'

dr.bollocko · 17-08-2012 1:31pm

MOD:

Cathy banned for the grammar nazi crap.

CruelCoin · 17-08-2012 1:38pm

Cú Giobach wrote: »

He's ---- for
.

And in the ----
it will happen that the
/English
will ---- English out of the nest.
It will do so as it will be more ----, more
, better
with
of new words.
look at
take on new words. All it does is
english words and put an
on them. -- years from now, if it
that long, ---- will be
as the
it is today,
with
words.
a roads with many, many, many
.
there is hardly any
road ----, and it is
better to tear it all up and
it from
.

There is nothing
with this.

See what I did there??

Oh you!

CruelCoin · 17-08-2012 1:49pm

An Coilean wrote: »

No he is not, the idea that there are superior cultures and inferior cultures is backwords beyond description.

When did i equate language and culture being the same thing?

In the distant future there won't even be English, there will be a family of distinct languages decended from English, this notion of a world language is nonsence, its not gona happen.

There is no term for Old/New irish, as they're still trying to flog the same crap from century's ago. Meanwhile there is a reason why they call old english "old english". You have only to listen to the radio, and be shocked at the amount of english words they have to slip in in order to make it work.

As for Chinese, or Mandarin, that is the worlds biggest Language because of the size of the Chinese populaion, its not expanding beyond China.

English is spoken as the language of business and trade. This will change as the Chinese continue their economic growth and continue their expansion into foreign markets. Matter of time before the language of trade shifts.

Dear lord, the language you are posting in has more loan words than any other language in the world, it is actually more loan words than words that came from Old English at this stage. Perhaps it should be torn down too?

It will be, in its own time, hence why i mentioned the Upcoming Chinese/English hybrid in my last post.

Seriously what kind of nonsence are schools teaching?

ah yes, i dissagree with you, i must therefore be a child just out of school. Hmmm. Seems i forgot to put in a CAO application. how clumsy of me.

Edit: From reading another thread, I see what kind of ideology I am dealing with, so I will bow out of this discussion.

Ouch. no really, ouch!

In red above.

Wibbs · 17-08-2012 1:49pm

Grayson wrote: »

No it isn't. letting something die that has had it's time isn't eugenics. eugenics would be trying to manufacture it's demise.

Indeed, as you point out we've done the complete opposite in the case of the language. We've attempted "cultural eugenics" in it's favour. We did similar with the GAA and to a lesser extent Irish music and dance etc, but in those cases the people wanted it and supported it with their feet and are very popular today. The Irish language is quite simply not supported in practical terms by the people of our nation.

It's a minority pursuit, foisted on and paid for by a majority who abandon it the first chance they get*. Even among those that support it in no uncertain terms, you have farcically high number who have little actual fluency in the language, or who think they're representing our collective culture because they clumsily use a cupla focal as a way to talk among themselves on Spanish holidays.

No amount of legislation for street signs and housing estates as Gaelige will change this. It's nothing more than empty window dressing. And that's sad. Like a badly told Irish joke by some crosseyed gobshíte in a 1970's English working mans club.

*hence the pro side tend to become antsy at the notion of removing compulsion as it would show this large scale abandonment in a very stark light.

Wibbs · 17-08-2012 1:54pm

CruelCoin wrote: »

English is spoken as the language of business and trade. This will change as the Chinese continue their economic growth and continue their expansion into foreign markets. Matter of time before the language of trade shifts./It will be, in its own time, hence why i mentioned the Upcoming Chinese/English hybrid in my last post.

Nope. Highly unlikely to happen. China's future is anything but rosy. It'll be a long time before English is replaced as the lingua franca of commerce. Spanish has a bigger chance than Mandarin. I find when the culture seems to be in a blanket agreement about something such as "the Chinese will take over the world", it's best to see beyond the hype and look at the various underlying realities. Then you'll find the hype is just that.

dubhthach · 17-08-2012 2:35pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Nope. Highly unlikely to happen. China's future is anything but rosy. It'll be a long time before English is replaced as the lingua franca of commerce. Spanish has a bigger chance than Mandarin. I find when the culture seems to be in a blanket agreement about something such as "the Chinese will take over the world", it's best to see beyond the hype and look at the various underlying realities. Then you'll find the hype is just that.

Of course if the chinese continue with the one child policy they'll end up halving their population within the next 50 years or so.

CruelCoin · 17-08-2012 2:42pm

dubhthach wrote: »

Of course if the chinese continue with the one child policy they'll end up halving their population within the next 50 years or so.

Ok, the whole getting old before they get rich thing may be a bit of a setback, but that doesn't change the fact that there is over 1 billion of them, and they're starting to feed!

Wibbs · 17-08-2012 2:50pm

Already happening D. The amount of young and cheap workers which fueled their massive economic expansion now entering employment is dropping yearly and it's going to get worse. China had over 750,000 primary schools in the arly nineties. That figure had fallen to below 300,000 by the late noughties and continues to drop. In 2009 applications to third level were down by 300,000, a year later they were down by 700,000. These are huge figures, even for China. At the same time their longevity stats went up by a couple of decades. Their aging population (over 60) is set to double over the next five years while their 18-25 year olds will halve. They're going to get old before they get rich.

Their are also hundreds of thousands of appartments that stats show never use electricity or other utilities. They're empty. Homes for millions of people. Yet the Chinese are intent on building more cities in the next ten years. Imagine the Irish celtic tiger on steriods. They're in the middle of and creating the largest commodity boom in world history. This will not end well.

Irish_wolf · 17-08-2012 3:05pm

I like speaking irish with the lads down the pub. But that's about as far as it goes as a language. Languages are easy to learn when you need to learn them, the human mind is equipped to deal with new languages and absorb them naturally when you are completely immersed in it.

The problem is no one needs to learn irish, and probably never will unless you plan on teaching it in some fashion so the drive will never be there.

It would take a sizeable percentage of the whole country to start speaking only irish to each other in order for change to come about but that wont happen despite that fact that most people would like it.

Cú Giobach · 17-08-2012 3:28pm

CruelCoin wrote: »

There is no term for Old/New irish, as they're still trying to flog the same crap from century's ago. Meanwhile there is a reason why they call old english "old english". You have only to listen to the radio, and be shocked at the amount of english words they have to slip in in order to make it work.

Wiki links I know, but they are handy starting places for people who know nothing about a topic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_Irish
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Irish
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Irish

Which us lead to.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Gaelic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manx_language

By the way did you miss the point in my taking all the "foreign" words out of your earlier post.

Clareboy · 17-08-2012 10:33pm

Interest in History wrote: »

Can you start the process of engagement right now by giving us some examples that illustrate this richness and that connect to people's feelings?

Just do it, man!

First of all, our family names are for the most part derived from the Irish language as well as our place names. Our most basic sense of identity is firmly rooted in Irish. Even the way we think and use English has its origins in Irish. The Irish language represents the very soul of Ireland and essence of what it means to be Irish.

Clareboy · 17-08-2012 10:37pm

Interest in History wrote: »

Please define "we" as used in your sentaence.

It must be some group, obviously distinct from the "ordinary Irish people" whom you specify as the target of your action. The "we" must be a missionery group of some sort, I guess?

Reg Huindley, in his book "The Death of the Irish Language" characterises the response of the general population of Ireland to the Revival efforts of the governments as "structured evasion". Meaning that the population can't stop government actions, and that ostensively they must go along with them, but that they indirectly make sure that it all comes to nothing.

" we " as in the ordinary people of Ireland. I am not talking about any special group in society.

Pottler · 17-08-2012 10:42pm

How to revive the Irish language? How about a pillow over the airways?
Total, absolute, complete load of old bollix, which, in the fullness of time, will be consigned to the scrap bin, hopefully. A throw-back of the highest order, preserve of the perverse and the pedantic, a blight on our children and a hinderance to the teaching of things that matter, like how to do up a decent quote, compile an invoice and calculate a margin. Better off teaching Spanish, waste of time that that is. Let the bleedin Spaniards learn English, charge them for the priveledge and their accomodation, then blame the Brits for it's prevalance. Result.

How to revive the Irish language.

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