How to revive the Irish language.

The King of Moo

wilkie2006 wrote: »

I don't think that there's anything wrong with teaching a language through focusing on its grammar - I learned French this way and found it very effective. The problem with how Irish is taught is the teachers. Perhaps the curriculum is structured awkwardly but none of them have ever been able to impose any structure on the Irish syllabus. It seemed like I learned the same thing every single year in school - no matter how old I was there was never any progression.

You really need a little bit of everything when learning a language: grammar, reading, writing and speaking. Kids are well able to handle it.
I'd probably prioritise speaking over reading and writing in the early stages, but it has to be complemented by teaching grammar too.

Just learning to speak it would mean you'd only learn off phrases by heart but you wouldn't be able to put your own sentences together, which is critical.

One of the reasons we found it harder to learn languages in my day was because we'd never been taught basic English grammar like the different tenses (most adults couldn't name them). That made it very difficult because we'd be told about Irish or French tenses, but have little idea of what their English equivalents were.

The European countries with the higher levels of English also tend to be the ones where students are provided with a good grounding in their native tongue's grammar too.

saa

Gentle nagging UNTIL YOU LOVE IRISH, YOU LOVE IT YOU DIRTY SLAG AND I BET YOU LOVE GOING TO MASS AS WELL DON'T YOU.

lecker Hendl

Most people haven't mastered the English language yet (LOL wut omg!!!), so asking them to become fluent in Irish in 5 years is nonsense.

44leto

saa wrote: »

Gentle nagging UNTIL YOU LOVE IRISH, YOU LOVE IT YOU DIRTY SLAG AND I BET YOU LOVE GOING TO MASS AS WELL DON'T YOU.

WILL YAH SUDDUP JUST SHUDDUP Ta me ag speaketh sa gailge.

wilkie2006

44leto wrote: »

What if people did not want to, what if I as an Irish citizen, born here, insisted that I would be dealt with in English.

bb1234567 wrote: »

Thats exactly what we should do, every sign, poster,book,letter should be only in irish and this will force people to become fluent in the language .:)

Come on, there's no point in making people learn Irish through such extreme methods. The only way to do it is through clever marketing. Adults' perceptions of the language need to be challenged. The government needs to change people's minds through a clever advertising strategy and then have an accessible and enjoyable Irish language programme waiting for people to enroll in.

wilkie2006

The King of Moo wrote: »

One of the reasons we found it harder to learn languages in my day was because we'd never been taught basic English grammar like the different tenses (most adults couldn't name them). That made it very difficult because we'd be told about Irish or French tenses, but have little idea of what their English equivalents were.

Really good point. +100, really.

I think the reason I found French so easy (well, relatively easy) was because on day one the teacher started off with, "This is a noun, this in an adjective, this is an adverb..."

wilkie2006

wilkie2006 wrote: »

Come on, there's no point in making people learn Irish through such extreme methods. The only way to do it is through clever marketing. Adults' perceptions of the language need to be challenged. The government needs to change people's minds through a clever advertising strategy and then have an accessible and enjoyable Irish language programme waiting for people to enroll in.

A few Guinness adverts as Gaeilge would be a good example, it needs businesses to support the language and for people to accept it.

Remember the Carsberg advert, took the piss out of Irish but was probably the most helpful advert ever to raise the profile of Irish.

The King of Moo

wilkie2006 wrote: »

Really good point. +100, really.

I think the reason I found French so easy (well, relatively easy) was because on day one the teacher started off with, "This is a noun, this in an adjective, this is an adverb..."

The frustrating thing is that it would take very little time and effort to teach English grammar to young kids, and it would stick with them as it would really just be giving labels to things they already knew.

We did some very basic grammar in sixth class, just what a noun, verb and adjective were.

Then the next year we had to learn "le present parfait" in French, when we had no idea what the present perfect was in English, and our teacher never told us about it.

LordSutch

paullyons00 wrote: »

How to revive the Irish language.

Make Irish a non compulsory leaving Cert subject, take the mandatory nature out of it (even as an experiment), give the language back to those families who want their children to learn it, therefore giving the langaage a much more positive image at home. Currently there is far too much negativity associated with the language due to the way its been forcefully 'mistaught' for decades. There is also a negative generational issue wherby parents who had a bad experience of Irish in school (me included) don't want their children to experience the same grief that we did.

I am not anti the Irish language, but I do think that it should be a non mandatory subject, certainly for LC students, therefore giving the language room the breath in a positive 'non forced' environment. This new environment would in my opinion help Irish to revive in a slow but "positive" and progressive manner.

GaryIrv93

bb1234567 wrote: »

Thats exactly what we should do, every sign, poster,book,letter should be only in irish and this will force people to become fluent in the language .:)

That wouldn't work either as very few people can speak proper Irish apart from a few basic cupla focail. People would demand to have everything put back into English,

partyatmygaff

There's actually a thread about this very issue on the Leaving Cert forum...

wilkie2006

If a presidential candidate's manifesto* acknowledged that the Irish curriculum needed to be overhauled and included a promise to revise it radically, would you vote for them? **



* Along with other more conventional commitments

** I'm not thinking of running, I'm just interested in getting an idea of whether adults value Irish as a national language.

saa

wilkie2006 wrote: »

If a presidential candidate's manifesto* acknowledged that the Irish curriculum needed to be overhauled and included a promise to radically revise it, would you vote for them? **



* Along with other more conventional commitments

** I'm not thinking of running, I'm just interested in getting an idea of whether adults value Irish as a national language.

Maybe the education minister, but then I wouldn't believe they would follow through sure theres a new Art course ready to go for years but it would be too expensive to bring in.

Yeah I would of valued Irish a bit more but it wasn't until the end of Leaving Cert when we had a passionate sub teacher that took half a class to tell us about how people fought for us to speak Irish, and cultural identity and the beauty of it and after that I was engaged and it lifted some of the anxieties about even opening an Irish book,

because until then as far as I could remember Irish was this.. thing that meant we had to go home and write out these strange sentences and learn poems without really knowing what they meant as the authors didn't like putting English translations in and every teacher always seemed angry when teaching it and oh yeah that thing that just seemed like a problem, a puzzle I couldn't figure out and this resulted in me getting given out to week after week by teachers, I look back now and I think how could I hate something so important and interesting, I didn't "get it" and I was cut out of it so that was that if you're not going to learn all these words then that's it, that's all Irish was made for and is used for - filling out comprehensions and tape tests.

Now when it came to French I understood first that French was a language used in this exoitic place that I associated with all these interesting things learnt basic things at 13 and was basically speaking it by 17, with Irish I looked at the pictures early on in school moved out of Dublin at 10 they were at a higher level in 3rd class, got made a show of taken out of class and told to start memorizing more for the tests barely got through that by guessing, junior cert got eyes rolled at me for not knowing the basics so scrapped by further if it was any other subject I would of been told to drop it..

Seannew1

There would need to be a total restructure in the educational system,kids in primary schools aren't been taught the language properly,a lot of teachers don't have a high enough standard and passion for the language and this in turn is having a negative impact on the children.Also in terms of the JC/LC exams,the course is completely outdated and needs to be become more relevant,so that people become interested in the language again.Also,I think the Gaeltacht areas in the country aren't been promoted enough.

Tonyandthewhale

wilkie2006 wrote: »

If a presidential candidate's manifesto* acknowledged that the Irish curriculum needed to be overhauled and included a promise to revise it radically, would you vote for them? **



* Along with other more conventional commitments

** I'm not thinking of running, I'm just interested in getting an idea of whether adults value Irish as a national language.

Yes, I'd vote for them provided that part of the radical revision was to stop making Irish compulsory in schools.

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

Israel introduced Hebrew very successfully just after WWII by making all internal government services available in only Hebrew.

Ehhhh. Read more history and consider context. With all the Jewish folks coming from all over the world they needed a common language. We don't. We already have one. Sadly it's biggest "crime" is to be called English.

Deleted User wrote: »

Remember the Carsberg advert, took the piss out of Irish but was probably the most helpful advert ever to raise the profile of Irish.

Maybe you missed the irony inherent in said ad?

harney

Pfffff, enough of your limp wristed ideas OP, this is the reason the language is where it is. Chemical castration for any males that fail a second time. We don't need the genes of anybody that fails two Irish exams spreading through the populous.

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

Ehhhh. Read more history and consider context. With all the Jewish folks coming from all over the world they needed a common language. We don't. We already have one. Sadly it's biggest "crime" is to be called English.

I am fully aware of that aspect of history, they could have just as easily chosen English!

Maybe you missed the irony inherent in said ad?

Not at all, but It highlighted the language to the general population in a way that all the "official" methods failed to do due to people "tuning it out".

kowloon

harney wrote: »

Pfffff, enough of your limp wristed ideas OP, this is the reason the language is where it is. Chemical castration for any males that fail a second time. We don't need the genes of anybody that fails two Irish exams spreading through the populous.

Just the males? This has to be all out or it's not worth doing.

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

I am fully aware of that aspect of history, they could have just as easily chosen English!

They nearly did.

Not at all, but It highlighted the language to the general population in a way that all the "official" methods failed to do due to people "tuning it out".

By making it an in joke we all buy into.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-17892521
Learning a second language can boost brain power, scientists believe.
The US researchers from Northwestern University say bilingualism is a form of brain training - a mental "work out" that fine-tunes the mind.
Speaking two languages profoundly affects the brain and changes how the nervous system responds to sound, lab tests revealed.
Experts say the work in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences provides "biological" evidence of this.

Just something for the monoglots to think about! (the second language doesn’t need to be Irish of course)

Sleepy

I'm not in favour of the goal but I can certainly tell you how to revive the Irish language to a point where the majority of the population would learn to speak it and use it daily.

It's very, very simple: remove Irish from the education system and ban it's use.

As a people we can't resist rebelling against "the man" and, as such, a large majority of Irish people would respond by "reclaiming" the Irish language.

Those of us with no time for the language would also be happier as we (our our children) would no longer be forced to study it in school or to base our college matriculation on it. And for added bonus points we wouldn't have to listen to the O'Carroll - Kelly's of this world telling us how Fiachra is in the local Gaelscoil whilst Chastity is starting in the Naonra next month and how it's the language that benefits the children's education so greatly rather than their socio-economic background...

Nothingbetter2d

is é sin ach smaoineamh amaideach

golden lane

paullyons00 wrote: »

In my opinion, the only way we can possibly revive the Irish language to make it the first language of the people, business and pleasure, is as follows:

All citizens below the age of 30 and above the age of 17 have 5 years to reach an agreed level of fluency.

Each will be assessed through an oral and written exam at the end of those 5 years.

If the candidate does not pass on his/her first exam, they will be given a second chance to pass but at a higher pass mark.

Any candidate who fails the second exam should be stripped of their rights and citizenship and should face a hefty prison sentence.


This may seem autocratic or communist, but in my view its the only way we can revive the language or else it will die out in years to come.

I'd love to hear your opinions on my way of thinking and alternative views on how we should go about reviving the language.

why not just stay part of the great english speaking world.....it is a great advantage in the business world of today.....

and we aleady speak it fluently..............

and when you are cured of your insanity.....you will realise that...

JohnMarston

I'll make my post as simple as possible: What's my incentive for learning Irish?
Its treated as no consequence if i learn it or not, bar a few points in an exam.

paddyandy

It's not onomatopoeic for the age we live in .The Guitar kills it and goes off laughing .
It's Vocabulary is very limited and other reasons including apathy dictates that it goes to the museum with other languages that are casualties of slick media speak .An eastern gent told me once "We can't do rocknroll songs in my language". Take your favourite tv character and put irish into his gob and every thing gets sick ....Thats all Folks !

Sleepy

Nothingbetter2d wrote: »

is é sin ach smaoineamh amaideach

You know that saying an idea is silly (even in a different language) does nothing to challenge the idea. Right?

Or were you just thanks whoring hoping that others that share your fondness for the language would give you a thumbs up for posting in it?

deise go deo

Sleepy wrote: »

I'm not in favour of the goal but I can certainly tell you how to revive the Irish language to a point where the majority of the population would learn to speak it and use it daily.

It's very, very simple: remove Irish from the education system and ban it's use.

As a people we can't resist rebelling against "the man" and, as such, a large majority of Irish people would respond by "reclaiming" the Irish language.

Those of us with no time for the language would also be happier as we (our our children) would no longer be forced to study it in school or to base our college matriculation on it. And for added bonus points we wouldn't have to listen to the O'Carroll - Kelly's of this world telling us how Fiachra is in the local Gaelscoil whilst Chastity is starting in the Naonra next month and how it's the language that benefits the children's education so greatly rather than their socio-economic background...

A few striking misconceptions here, banning a language has never and will never be a step in reviving it, not in Ireland and not anywhere else.

Gaelscoils are not the sole domain of the O'Carroll-Kelly's of this world, and second language immersion education has been shown to be beneficial and yes its because of the language.

paddyandy

That's it Ban it .Tell us not to do something and we'll do it .

deise go deo

paddyandy wrote: »

That's it Ban it .Tell us not to do something and we'll do it .

OK, Lets do a small scale test, Don't speak Irish Paddyandy.

Iwasfrozen

Deleted User wrote: »

Just something for the monoglots to think about! (the second language doesn’t need to be Irish of course)

Grand so we all learn Polish then?

Iwasfrozen

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Grand so we all learn Polish then?

No point, the Poles are only a transient population, they'll either assimilate or return to Poland.

Iwasfrozen

Deleted User wrote: »

No point, the Poles are only a transient population, they'll either assimilate or return to Poland.

Tell it to the Ulster Scots.

But no seriously these percieved benefits have little to do with the revival of the irish language and are really only a straw man arguement. People have been pushing for Ireland to become bilingual long before these studies came out so I doubt they've influenced the number of gaeilgeoir about. Bottom line is this isn't Oceania, the state can't force people to take up a new language. If Ireland is to be revived it will take a grass roots movement with possibly assistance to speed the movement up but it cannot be spearheaded by the government and nor can we rely totally on children to pick up the slack either. Know what I mean?

Though I should add here the recent ginormous failure that was Bernard Dunne's bród club where the poor guy only got 22% of his target is proof if ever it was needed that no such grass roots aptitude exists.

deise go deo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

If Ireland is to be revived it will take a grass roots movement with possibly assistance to speed the movement up but it cannot be spearheaded by the government and nor can we rely totally on children to pick up the slack either. Know what I mean?

Though I should add here the recent ginormous failure that was Bernard Dunne's bród club where the poor guy only got 22% of his target is proof if ever it was needed that no such grass roots aptitude exists.

So what is needed is a grassroots movement? Something that is pushed by people on the ground, a movement that turns out thousands of young confident Irish speakers every year? A movement that has grown and will continue to grow into the future.
Yeah, it would be great if something like that existed.

Iwasfrozen

deise go deo wrote: »

So what is needed is a grassroots movement? Something that is pushed by people on the ground, a movement that turns out thousands of young confident Irish speakers every year? A movement that has grown and will continue to grow into the future.
Yeah, it would be great if something like that existed.

That's the thing. It doesn't. At least not in the numbers needed, either to revive the language or justify it's special position.

Gordon Gecko

Only way to revive it is to raise kids out in the sticks (in total isolation) speaking purely Irish, then when they're adolescents to murder everyone in Ireland who doesn't speak Irish fluently and have the teens start the population anew.

deise go deo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That's the thing. It doesn't. At least not in the numbers needed, either to revive the language or justify it's special position.

It dose'nt? Have a look around UCD during SnaG and tell me that, Have a look at Oireachtas na Gaeilge every year, or Comortas Peil na Gaeltachta, just because you don't see it every day does not mean it's not there.
And special Position? What special position, left in portacabins year after year decade after decade in far higher proportion than the rest of the education system?

Iwasfrozen

deise go deo wrote: »

It dose'nt? Have a look around UCD during SnaG and tell me that, Have a look at Oireachtas na Gaeilge every year, or Comortas Peil na Gaeltachta, just because you don't see it every day does not mean it's not there.

I live in UCD and I'm telling you it. Yes SnaG happens but it's always the people who would have an interest in it anyway who get involved. It has no mass appeal. During SnaG the vast vast vast majority of students still speak english. Same with these other festivals they have no mass broad appeal and they are failing in their endeavours to attract new speakers.

You know a while back when poor auld Enda was trying to make irish optional a picture was making the rounds on facebook. Originating from the UCD irish society with a caption motivating irish language students to oppose the decision as it would endanger their future career prospects. No word of the language. Says it all really.

I've already mentioned the Bród club where poor Bernard Dunne only managed 22% of his target. And even at that he was only trying to get people to seak a very weak form of irish. Most shocking thing of all if you watch the last episode they try to pass it off as a success! :rolleyes:

deise go deo wrote: »

And special Position? What special position, left in year after year decade after decade in far higher proportion than the rest of the education system?

It's position as the only mandatory subject in school. Not for the good of the language, we need to move away from that thought process. But for the good of the students.

deise go deo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I live in UCD and I'm telling you it. Yes SnaG happens but it's always the people who would have an interest in it anyway who get involved. It has no mass appeal. During SnaG the vast vast vast majority of students still speak english. Same with these other festivals they have no mass broad appeal and they are failing in their endeavours to attract new speakers.

You do realise that the Cumann Gaelach in UCD has grown masively over the last ten years, from just a few hundred members to about 2000 for the last two years.
Events they run like No Béarla where people sign up to speak Gaeilge Amháin for a Day have been growing every year to the point that they had 800 students taking part in No Béarla this year, and UCD did not even win best Cumann Gaelach this year.

As for Oireachtas, there were more students at it last year than ever before, all of them speaking Irish.

Claiming that they are failing to attract new people is nonsence, the trend across the country for the last few years in Third Level Irish societies has been robust expansion, the vast majority can continue to speak English, that does'nt mean Irish is not growing strongly amongst young people.

Battered Mars Bar

Ban it.

We'd learn it then.

LH Pathe

Rename it simplified Chinese, they will flood to it with ¥en in their eyes

/Yuan

Yamanoto

deise go deo wrote: »

You do realise that the Cumann Gaelach in UCD has grown masively over the last ten years, from just a few hundred members to about 2000 for the last two years.
Events they run like No Béarla where people sign up to speak Gaeilge Amháin for a Day have been growing every year to the point that they had 800 students taking part in No Béarla this year, and UCD did not even win best Cumann Gaelach this year.

As for Oireachtas, there were more students at it last year than ever before, all of them speaking Irish.

Claiming that they are failing to attract new people is nonsence, the trend across the country for the last few years in Third Level Irish societies has been robust expansion, the vast majority can continue to speak English, that does'nt mean Irish is not growing strongly amongst young people.

All the above is encouraging, but it'd be foolish to think it and the wider work undertaken by bodies such as Conradh na Gaeilge, Fondúireacht na Gaeilge and Gaelscoilleanna in their present form would have what's necessary to effect a revival of the language itself.

For that to happen, there has to be the will to achieve a bi-lingual society, from the people to the politicians - an expensive, intensive, long-term undertaking.

philstar

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34a3ahZqEAg

Iwasfrozen

deise go deo wrote: »

You do realise that the Cumann Gaelach in UCD has grown masively over the last ten years, from just a few hundred members to about 2000 for the last two years.
Events they run like No Béarla where people sign up to speak Gaeilge Amháin for a Day have been growing every year to the point that they had 800 students taking part in No Béarla this year, and UCD did not even win best Cumann Gaelach this year.

Fair play. they market well. I wonder how many much the number of students studying irish in arts has increased over that same period...

800 students not speaking irish for a day? Come off it I would have noticed. Signing up is not the same as partaking. Haven't you learned anything from the census data?

As for Oireachtas, there were more students at it last year than ever before, all of them speaking Irish.

deise go deo wrote: »

Claiming that they are failing to attract new people is nonsence, the trend across the country for the last few years in Third Level Irish societies has been robust expansion, the vast majority can continue to speak English, that does'nt mean Irish is not growing strongly amongst young people.

I didn't say that they aren't growing. I said they don't have the numbers to infulence society at large. They are a small band of speakers. A minority group. These societies will come and go, grow and shrink as they have done so since the foundation of the state but irish will never see a revival. There will be no irish renaissance because it is a minority interest.

up for anything

It's mystifying why with two sixth classes, only a tiny percentage of the children who attend Gaelscoil Osraí go on to attend the secondary school Coláiste Pobail Osraí in Kilkenny.

GaryIrv93

If the vast majority of students learning Irish can at best string a few basic and broken sentences together after what, fourteen years of being taught it then that's reason enough for it to be abolished as a compulsory subject. Learning a language for fourteen bloody years and not being fluent in it is just ridiculous and is a complete waste of time, money and resources. The government needs to cop on, and make these changes, as well as restructuring the whole method of teaching Irish. I've never seen nor heard of a bigger fail in an education system in my life. Forcing students to learn Irish will not work no matter how much you try to make it, and the whole reason for it just backfires - forcing students drives them away from Irish, not towards it as it's intended. I wish people could get that into their heads. It's almost as if the goverment wants young people to despise the language - if not, then they would have restructured it's teaching years ago.

I think people would appreciate Irish more if given the option to learn it freely instead of having it forced down their throats.

Stained Class

There is no debate on this really.

Let's just shoot this limping dog thru the eyes & have done with.

Spend the cash on a few spare beds in hospitals............ & well we could do an awfull lot more besides if we just got rid entirely.

The worst kind of eejits in this country use this as some kind of hobby horse for themselves.

Pay for it yourselves & for God's sake leave the rest of us alone!!!!!!!!!!!!

I could do with a new fishing rod & I WANT YOU TO PAY FOR IT 'COS ITS YOUR DUTY AS A PATRIOT TO PAY FOR MY HOBBY!

GETTIT!!!!!!!!!

deise go deo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Fair play. they market well. I wonder how many much the number of students studying irish in arts has increased over that same period...

800 students not speaking irish for a day? Come off it I would have noticed. Signing up is not the same as partaking. Haven't you learned anything from the census data?

You don't have to pay to claim to speak Irish on the census, you do if you want to join the Cumann Gaelach and to take part in No Béarla or any other events they run, that tends to seperate out people who are not interested fairly fast.

I didn't say that they aren't growing. I said they don't have the numbers to infulence society at large. They are a small band of speakers. A minority group. These societies will come and go, grow and shrink as they have done so since the foundation of the state but irish will never see a revival. There will be no irish renaissance because it is a minority interest.

A small band of speakers indeed, but growing, and the number of young people fluent in Irish, who have had their entire education before going to Uni through Irish is growing and will continue to grow. Rome was not built in a day, but the foundations are already down.
The Minority is getting bigger.

deise go deo

GaryIrv93 wrote: »

If the vast majority of students learning Irish can at best string a few basic and broken sentences together after what, fourteen years of being taught it then that's reason enough for it to be abolished as a compulsory subject. Learning a language for fourteen bloody years and not being fluent in it is just ridiculous and is a complete waste of time, money and resources. The government needs to cop on, and make these changes, as well as restructuring the whole method of teaching Irish. I've never seen nor heard of a bigger fail in an education system in my life. Forcing students to learn Irish will not work no matter how much you try to make it, and the whole reason for it just backfires - forcing students drives them away from Irish, not towards it as it's intended. I wish people could get that into their heads. It's almost as if the goverment wants young people to despise the language - if not, then they would have restructured it's teaching years ago.

I think people would appreciate Irish more if given the option to learn it freely instead of having it forced down their throats.

As the Americans would say, you do the math.

The best available research in the area of second language learning(Carried out by the Canadians in case you think its just rabid Gaeilgoirs making stuff up) says that it takes 5000 hours of contact with a language to learn it to fluency, over the course of the average students time in the education system in Ireland they get 1200 hours of contact with Irish, which is just under the ammount of time needed for a basic ability in a language according to the same research. So is it just ridicuolus that Irish kids dont come out fluent in Irish?

Also, research indicates that time spent learning a second language is beneficial in an education system even if fluency in the language is not achieved.

But hey, don't let little things like facts get in the way of a good rant, god knows they rarely do. Oh and also, there is really very little to suggest that there is any kind of widespread dislike of the Language its sel.

conor.hogan.2

In UCD and I imagine other colleges you have to pay money to enter no Béarla and in UCD wear a bright green hoody (it was bright green a few years ago anyway)

So pretty much everyone who does it means to do it you don't just stumble into it.

(that said my spoken Irish was terrible and I was not using Irish a lot that week but I did use it more than usual anyway)