How to revive the Irish language.

opti0nal

MysticalRain wrote: »

If I had a Euro for every webpage on the internet that won't accept my own Irish name because it has an O' in front of the surname...

That apostrophe could cause a nasty SQL error if not properly escaped.

Of course, the correct form would be Ó rather than O'. That's problem of a different character.

RandomName2

Seanchai wrote: »

the princely sum of €1 to her credit/debit card as a way to verify that she is who she says she is. [...]. A non-refundable deduction, mind you.


Incredible. Discrimination pure and simple. No wonder so many Irish speakers have been beaten into submission. Every day there is some battle against intolerant English monoglots to assert your identity and not have their one imposed on you.

Are our taxes to fund Irish at um... € 1.2 BILLION a year non-refundable as well?

Yup.


Source Note that funding for teaching Irish has increased since this article, although Gaelteacht funding has gone down

An Coilean

RandomName2 wrote: »

Are our taxes to fund Irish at um... € 1.2 BILLION a year non-refundable as well?

Yup.


Source Note that funding for teaching Irish has increased since this article, although Gaelteacht funding has gone down

It would be interesting to see an actual source for the figures as well as a break down of where it is spent, by the way, why has the funding for the teaching of Irish increased?

opti0nal

An Coilean wrote: »

It would be interesting to see an actual source for the figures as well as a break down of where it is spent, by the way, why has the funding for the teaching of Irish increased?

Umm, Perhaps click on the link in the post, labelled 'Source'?

That's a shocking figure for so little value and it does not include the money spent on mandatory Irish language signs in overwhelmingly English-speaking areas, nor obligatory public services in Irish for people who grew up speaking perfectly good English but choose to use Irish instead.

Latest, I've noticed is Irish-language safety warnings on Dart station platforms. Not much use if on if an English-speaker stands on an 'Irish' section of the platform. One would think that passenger safety should take priority over the ambitions of the Irish-speaking minority? But, no.

An Coilean

opti0nal wrote: »

Latest, I've noticed is Irish-language safety warnings on Dart station platforms. Not much use if on if an English-speaker stands on an 'Irish' section of the platform. One would think that passenger safety should take priority over the ambitions of the Irish-speaking minority? But, no.

Wait, There are no signs in English? There are? So how exactly dose the inclusion of Irish signs as well make the station less safe for passengers?

Truman Burbank

kenmc wrote: »

Thread is too long to read. Has anyone asked "why" rather than "how" to revive the irish language? Terminal is terminal, you can extend it a bit with a bit of life support, but at the end of the day death will come. Sooner the better as far as I'm concerned, replace it with a useful language, that you can actually use to communicate outside of a few pockets of curiosity living museum.

The dust has gathered. Take an immediate left through the main revolving doors in Tallaght Library. Irish language novels can be found under, and amongst, 'Foreign Languages' on the far wall.

Cú Giobach

opti0nal wrote: »

Latest, I've noticed is Irish-language safety warnings on Dart station platforms. Not much use if on if an English-speaker stands on an 'Irish' section of the platform. One would think that passenger safety should take priority over the ambitions of the Irish-speaking minority? But, no.

OMG!! What about all those poor non-English or Irish speaking tourists or the blind :eek:, they are all risking their lives travelling on the Dart. Something must be done now!!! <rips hair out in anguish>. :eek:

An Coilean wrote: »

Wait, There are no signs in English? There are? So how exactly dose the inclusion of Irish signs as well make the station less safe for passengers?

Typical illogicality from certain people, someone was moaning recently about tourist signs in Irish, now that person was never annoyed when there were no signs at all, but now moans because they are in Irish only.
Put up ten warning signs in English nobody moans, put up ten in English and ten in Irish then someone will moan saying something stupid like above. :rolleyes:

Seanchai

opti0nal wrote: »

How come you have to battle with English 'monoglots' every day. Do you live, perhaps, in England?

I said "English speaking". The fact that you cannot understand the difference between somebody being English speaking and being English really reflects poorly on your understanding of the English language that you claim to love, something which is one of the more ironic collective traits of the haters of Irish.

All the people that I know who have good English are positive towards Irish (and all languages), if not fluent in Irish. It's the less educated who hate another language.

Seanchai

RandomName2 wrote: »

Are our taxes to fund Irish at um... € 1.2 BILLION a year non-refundable as well?

"Billions" my eye. Get a grip. I'd be more concerned about the "billions" which are used to fund Cromwell's language. But one never hears the Irish haters like yourself highlighting the money wasted on, to take one example of many, giving immigrants free classes in the English language, classes which they are forced to attend as a condition of their visas. Nope, not a word. My taxes.

Oh, and please stop wasting my taxes sending me literature in your English language.

Julius Seizure

opti0nal wrote: »

That apostrophe could cause a nasty SQL error if not properly escaped.

Of course, the correct form would be Ó rather than O'. That's problem of a different character.

Odd, My passport has Ó butI've given in to just using O' ... when I type Ó I get an ampersand code or &áiíouú212 something like that but never had any problems with O'.

Seanchai

opti0nal wrote: »

How do you know they're monoglots? Is it because they don't speak Irish?

Because they, the Irish haters like yourself, struggle so much with their native language of English that it's highly improbable, to put it mildly, that they'd be able to master a language that is not their native one.

Stained Class

The Irish language is dead.

Get used to it.

It's kept artificially alive by the State because of about 2 dozen fanatics who refuse to believe the truth.

Still, it's worth every penny of all the taxes I pay.......

Can I get the State to pay for any hobby I might want to take up?

Shure, It's a great ould setup.

dubhthach

As far as I know the bulk of that cost is actually in Teachers salary. Even if you banned Irish in the morning you wouldn't actually see much of a saving, unless you are proposing cutting teaching hours at the same time? No doubt knowing the unions though if you did cut hours they would fight tooth and nail to retain the same levels of payment.

Seanchai

Stained Class wrote: »

The Irish language is dead.

Given that you clearly don't speak it - indeed, you're clearly struggling with English - it's probably as "dead" as Chinese is to you. That's your problem, not ours.

Stained Class wrote: »

It's kept artificially alive by the State because of about 2 dozen fanatics who refuse to believe the truth.

Nice to see you're suddenly not a fanatic, Stained Glass, despite your numerous quite fanatical comments expressing hatred for the Irish language in Ireland. Well done.

Stained Class wrote: »

Still, it's worth every penny of all the taxes I pay....... Shure, It's a great ould setup.

Considering it is Irish speakers who are party to subsidising your hobbies at present, be they walking in state-financed parks or getting subsidised low motor taxes to drive silly cars or getting gardaí to police your silly pompous hobbies and prevent the rest of us from driving on the road, you really haven't considered the coherency of your "argument" very well here.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Seanchai wrote: »

I said "English speaking". The fact that you cannot understand the difference between somebody being English speaking and being English really reflects poorly on your understanding of the English language that you claim to love, something which is one of the more ironic collective traits of the haters of Irish.

All the people that I know who have good English are positive towards Irish (and all languages), if not fluent in Irish. It's the less educated who hate another language.

You also said, "intolerant English monoglots." This can only refer to people from England who speak one language.

I'm not anti-Irish, nor am I pro-Irish. But I really hate this arrogant I-speak-Irish-so-I'm-better-than-you atitude. Especailly when they seem to think that, because I speak very little Irish, my English must automatically be of a similarly poor standard. (General comment, not nessecailry aimed at you specifcially.)

Seanchai wrote: »

Because they, the Irish haters like yourself, struggle so much with their native language of English that it's highly improbable, to put it mildly, that they'd be able to master a language that is not their native one.

On second thoughts, maybe I am aiming it at you. I speak French, German, Swedish, Danish and Norwegian to various different standards, but could hold a basic conversation in all of them. I could even have a crack at Dutch, considering the similarities between it and German.

But hey - I don't speak Irish. So I'm an ingornant monoglot.

Stained Class

Seanchai wrote: »

Given that you clearly don't speak it - indeed, you're clearly struggling with English - it's probably as "dead" as Chinese is to you. That's your problem, not ours.

It's the problem of everyone who pays taxes on this island & I'm as Irish as you BTW.




Nice to see you're suddenly not a fanatic, Stained Glass, despite your numerous quite fanatical comments expressing hatred for the Irish language in Ireland. Well done.

Looks like you have a spelling/comprehension problem too.





Considering it is Irish speakers who are party to subsidising your hobbies at present, be they walking in state-financed parks or getting subsidised low motor taxes to drive silly cars or getting gardaí to police your silly pompous hobbies and prevent the rest of us from driving on the road, you really haven't considered the coherency of your "argument" very well here.

I think I have.

Seanchai

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

You also said, "intolerant English monoglots." This can only refer to people from England who speak one language.

I'm not anti-Irish, nor am I pro-Irish. But I really hate this arrogant I-speak-Irish-so-I'm-better-than-you atitude. Especailly when they seem to think that, because I speak very little Irish, my English must automatically be of a similarly poor standard. (General comment, not nessecailry aimed at you specifcially.)



On second thoughts, maybe I am aiming it at you. I speak French, German, Swedish, Danish and Norwegian to various different standards, but could hold a basic conversation in all of them. I could even have a crack at Dutch, considering the similarities between it and German.

But hey - I don't speak Irish. So I'm an ingornant monoglot.

I could hold "a basic conversation" in numerous languages, and could familiarise myself with "basic conversation" language of any language in a couple of days. It is no great shakes. Fluency is a rather different matter. Ergo, I'm not clear what the point of that comment is.

Secondly, it really is your problem that you feel that people who speak Irish have an "I am better than you" attitude. People speak Irish better than me. I learn from them. People speak English better than me. I learn from them. No problem. Irish speakers could, indeed, have an "I'm better than you" attitude regarding their linguistic intelligence and unless you can speak proficiently in another language then equal respect in this regard would be withheld. And rightly so. This is the way it works in most things in life. Why you think people who put the effort into mastering another skill should not think they are better in that regard than somebody who doesn't is the mystery here. Likewise, for musicians and, well, people in almost every other walk of life. It's called ego, everybody has one. Why you single out Irish speakers is beyond me.

Personally, however, in the real world I have only encountered encouragement and praise from native and first language Irish speakers. Then again, I have no chip on my shoulder about the language and I'm always open to improving in it (just as I am in English and French). I don't care about any "humiliations" along the way because there is constant improvement on my part.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Seanchai wrote: »

I could hold "a basic conversation" in numerous languages, and could familiarise myself with "basic conversation" language of any language in a couple of days. It is no great shakes. Fluency is a rather different matter. Ergo, I'm not clear what the point of that comment is.

To point out that people who don't care for Irish can learn another language. I never claim to master any of them, but they idea that in dislike of Irish means you can't learn another language is, to put it politely, bullsh1t.

Secondly, it really is your problem that you feel that people who speak Irish have an "I am better than you" attitude. People speak Irish better than me. I learn from them. People speak English better than me. I learn from them. No problem. Irish speakers could, indeed, have an "I'm better than you" attitude regarding their linguistic intelligence and unless you can speak proficiently in another language then equal respect in this regard would be withheld. And rightly so. This is the way it works in most things in life. Why you think people who put the effort into mastering another skill should not think they are better in that regard than somebody who doesn't is the mystery here. Likewise, for musicians and, well, people in almost every other walk of life. It's called ego, everybody has one. Why you single out Irish speakers is beyond me.

I don't have a probelm with it, I just dislike arrogance. And it is not confined to linguisitic intelligence in a lot of cases. It's like they're trying to "out-Irish" me on a cultural level. Again, not aimed at you specifically, but I have expereinced it.

That said, it can be seen from the condescending remarks from yourself and Cu Giobach in this very thread. Are they really nessecary? Why the assumpation about the lack of English ability of people who don't like Irish? Specifically, "I said "English speaking". The fact that you cannot understand the difference between somebody being English speaking and being English really reflects poorly on your understanding of the English language that you claim to love, something which is one of the more ironic collective traits of the haters of Irish" despite the fact that the mistake was yours.

Seanchai

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

To point out that people who don't care for Irish can learn another language. I never claim to master any of them, but they idea that in dislike of Irish means you can't learn another language is, to put it politely, bullsh1t.

The actual point was, of course, that if somebody is struggling to master their native language - as is the typical case with the Irish haters - it's unlikely that they could master a second language. Stay with it.

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

I don't have a probelm with it, I just dislike arrogance.

This is disingenuous of you: you've certainly thanked numerous posts which display nothing short of unbridled arrogance against the Irish language.

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

It's like they're trying to "out-Irish" me on a cultural level.

If you have a deeper knowledge of the Irish language, then obviously you possess a deeper understanding of Irishness than somebody who does not have that knowledge. Other than it's inconvenient for your own limitations, why is this fact being disputed by you? For most identities on this planet, language is the window into their culture, outlook and history.

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Why the assumpation about the lack of English ability of people who don't like Irish?

It's not an assumption. The writing skills in English of the people here who express contempt and hate for the Irish language are, unsurprisingly, poor. Generally, people who allow their energy to be consumed by hate have lower intelligence.

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

despite the fact that the mistake was yours.

The mistake was not, of course, mine. Dictionary definition time. Monoglot = 'knowing only one language; monolingual: monoglot travelers.' Monoglot refers specifically to one's language. English = 'belonging or pertaining to, or spoken or written in, the English language.' English monoglot = It qualifies the only language which the monoglot speaks proficiently.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Seanchai wrote: »

The actual point was, of course, that if somebody is struggling to master their native language - as is the typical case with the Irish haters - it's unlikely that they could master a second language. Stay with it.

Correlation or causation? Or pure specualtion? Why is it specfic to "Irish haters"? How about people that just don't like the language and prefer a different one?

This is disingenuous of you: you've certainly thanked numerous posts which display nothing short of unbridled arrogance against the Irish language.

You'll need to point these out.

If you have a deeper knowledge of the Irish language, then obviously you possess a deeper understanding of Irishness than somebody who does not have that knowledge. Other than it's inconvenient for your own limitations, why is this fact being disputed by you? For most identities on this planet, language is the window into their culture, outlook and history.

I'll rephase what I said: it's like being more Irish than me somehow makes them a better person. It doesn't. What are my "limitations"? Or is this just a cheapshot?

It's not an assumption. The writing skills in English of the people here who express contempt and hate for the Irish language are, unsurprisingly, poor. Generally, people who allow their energy to be consumed by hate have lower intelligence.

I'm going to class myself here as not being an "Irish-hater", more of a neutral. I'm not sure if you class me as such or not. If so, can you please say why and tell me where my poor grasp of English lies?

If you do not class me as an Irish-hater, then fair enough. I can only speak for myself. But again, I don't see any direct cause of hating Irish on one's written english skills. There may be examples, but again, causation has to be established.

The mistake was not, of course, mine. Dictionary definition time. Monoglot = 'knowing only one language; monolingual: monoglot travelers.' Monoglot refers specifically to one's language. English = 'belonging or pertaining to, or spoken or written in, the English language.' English monoglot = It qualifies the only language which the monoglot speaks proficiently.

No it doesn't qualify. Unless you are referring to the language as being the monoglot.

English monoglot - English person who speaks one langauge.
English-speaking monoglot - Person who only speaks English.

The mistake is yours, as the use of the word "English" in the phrase "intolerant English monoglot" is refering to the characteristic of a person and not that of a language.

donegal_man

an langer wrote: »

....................................... So what if you had a bad time with 'school Irish'?! Gaeltacht people don't speak the ****ty school Irish, they are speakers of real life everyday Irish..................

And right there is why so many people of our generation have a problem with the language, it was taught to us as a "subject" not as a living practical language. I hope things have improved since I left school in 1987 although I doubt it.

opti0nal

An Coilean wrote: »

Wait, There are no signs in English? There are? So how exactly dose the inclusion of Irish signs as well make the station less safe for passengers?

On the surface of the platform, when you look down, there is a warning message in yellow lettering. Whether you see the English or Irish version depends on which part of the platform you are standing on when you look down. Some sections have English, some Irish, but not both at the same time.

So, if you stand in an Irish speaking section of the platform, say in Tara Street station, and you do not speak Irish, you will not see an important warning message in a language you can understand.

It makes no sense at all to use Irish on half the platform in a part of Dublin with no monoglot Irish speakers.

joseph brand

The Irish language is dying out because it's not needed. This whole thread, and the entire boards.ie forums, are written in English.

Why not try bringing back oil lamps? We used them a long time ago. Oh yeah, wind up cars, like in 1910. There must be more we could 'revive'. :rolleyes:

Cú Giobach

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

That said, it can be seen from the condescending remarks from yourself and Cu Giobach in this very thread. .

Give one example of me trying to "out Irish" someone, just one will do. I dare you.

opti0nal wrote: »

On the surface of the platform, when you look down, there is a warning message in yellow lettering. Whether you see the English or Irish version depends on which part of the platform you are standing on when you look down. Some sections have English, some Irish, but not both at the same time.

So, if you stand in an Irish speaking section of the platform, say in Tara Street station, and you do not speak Irish, you will not see an important warning message in a language you can understand.

It makes no sense at all to use Irish on half the platform in a part of Dublin with no monoglot Irish speakers.

The really funny thing about this post is that you are actually serious.

Mr Bean springs to mind when I imagine you using a rail network in another country and looking down befuddled at the big line painted a foot or two from the edge of the platform and wondering what it means because there is no English explaining why it's there, or walking nonchalantly along the rail line because there was no English sign telling you it can be rather rather dangerous. Thanks for the early morning giggle. You really should get out more.

opti0nal

Cú Giobach wrote: »

I imagine you using a rail network in another country and looking down befuddled at the big line painted a foot or two from the edge of the platform and wondering what it means because there is no English explaining why it's there,

By your reasoning, therefore it would be fair to say that Irish speakers should not have a problem with English-language signs in parts of the country where English is mostly spoken.

Cú Giobach

opti0nal wrote: »

By your reasoning, therefore it would be fair to say that Irish speakers should not have a problem with English-language signs in parts of the country where English is mostly spoken.

My reasoning?
I don't know if you are aware of it but all Irish speakers are bi-lingual in Irish and English.

opti0nal

Cú Giobach wrote: »

My reasoning?
I don't know if you are aware of it but all Irish speakers are bi-lingual in Irish and English.

...so we don't need signs in Irish.

Cú Giobach

opti0nal wrote: »

...so we don't need signs in Irish.

It really is amazing (and a little odd) for someone with an obsession such as yours not to know the reasons behind Irish language signage around the country.
Which includes among others, Irish is one of the official languages of the state and though the numbers are small people are entitled to have signage in their native language. Making the language visible is essential help revival, which a huge proportion of the population would like to see.

You don't seem to be defending your "Mr Beanish" type argument though, go on give it a try. Out of curiosity how do you know what is written in Irish on the platforms are actually warning signs, are you just guessing??

someuser905

Cú Giobach wrote: »

It really is amazing (and a little odd) for someone with an obsession such as yours not to know the reasons behind Irish language signage around the country.
Which includes among others, Irish is one of the official languages of the state and though the numbers are small people are entitled to have signage in their native language. Making the language visible is essential help revival, which a huge proportion of the population would like to see.

You don't seem to be defending your "Mr Beanish" type argument though, go on give it a try. Out of curiosity how do you know what is written in Irish on the platforms are actually warning signs, are you just guessing??

no one cares about that culchie babble
let it go

Grayson

Seanchai wrote: »

Given that you clearly don't speak it - indeed, you're clearly struggling with English - it's probably as "dead" as Chinese is to you. That's your problem, not ours.

I remember reading, years ago, that there were more native cantonese speakers in ireland than Irish speakers.

And considering I get a chinese takeaway every so often I'm actually more likely to hear chinese than irish.

Currently there are 4.2 million people in ireland. 72,000 speak irish outside of the education system. that's just over 1.5% of the population.

There are 56k people who speak French in the home in ireland. Of them, 37,000 were born in ireland. That means there are half as many native irish french speakers in ireland than there are irish speakers.

According to the 2006 census there were 22k travellers in ireland. There were also 22k Irish speakers in the gaelteacht. The number of gaelteacht speakers equals the number of travellers. I don't see a campaign to have all road signs translated into Shelta.

This is after decades of "revival". Irish might not be officially dead but according to the criteria the UN use, it's critically endangered. And for all practical purposes it's dead.

And the only reason it's still being taught is because of politics and cultural nazis.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Give one example of me trying to "out Irish" someone, just one will do. I dare you.

Slight misunderstanding, I was refering to you guys making condescending remarks when faced with posts you don't agree with, rather than trying to "out Irish" someone.

Cú Giobach

someuser905 wrote: »

no one cares about that culchie babble
let it go

If no one was interested in it, you wouldn't have to ask people to "let it go".
Also your calling it "culchie babble" shows your "no one" comment to be illogical, your calling people who use Irish culchies means that such people must exist and that you must be aware of them, someone ≠ no-one, therefore you are talking out of your arse. :D

Cú Giobach

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Slight misunderstanding, I was refering to you guys making condescending remarks when faced with posts you don't agree with, rather than trying to "out Irish" someone.

I make condescending remarks to people who talk shite, not those that disagree with me. Please show otherwise or give it a rest.

By the way I had no misunderstanding of what you said, you were quite clear. If you didn't mean it, then an apology for your mistake would be accepted.

RandomName2

Seanchai wrote: »

"Billions" my eye. Get a grip. I'd be more concerned about the "billions" which are used to fund Cromwell's language. But one never hears the Irish haters like yourself highlighting the money wasted on, to take one example of many, giving immigrants free classes in the English language, classes which they are forced to attend as a condition of their visas. Nope, not a word. My taxes.

Oh, and please stop wasting my taxes sending me literature in your English language.

You mean the lingua franca?

Oh dear. Ultra nationalist alert.

I presume you take most Irish people as Church hating Cromwellians trampling our traditional values of Catholicism, isolationism, Irish-gig dancing, parochial rural suspicion, poverty and bigotry? :rolleyes:

If you dislike Ireland and its people so much (who speak the CONQUEROR's LANGUAGE!!!), there's nobody holding you here. :P

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Cú Giobach wrote: »

I make condescending remarks to people who talk shite, not those that disagree with me. Please show otherwise or give it a rest.

I'd recommend engaging in debate ahead of condescention regarldess of the quality of the post you're replying to. This may only be the internet, but it looks lke you can't respond rather than don't want to.

Anyway, here's a couple: original point comes first, your responce is underneath in each case.

Long story short, I don't do or think or enjoy anything that is culturally Irish, but this doesn't make me any less of a person.

You tell 'em boyo.

The "majority" will always say they want Irish retained. Much like the majority of smokers will say they want to give up. It's an answer that just comes naturally because Irish people feel a moral obligation to defend it to an extent. Ask them should vast amounts of public money be spent on trying to keep it alive and I reckon a majority will say No. Ask them should people get extra marks in other subjects simply for answering in Irish and they will say No.

Anyone here going to defend the huge disgraceful waste of public money being spent on Irish translations of English documents? Every piece of rubbish coming in our door being doubled up to abide by the Official Languages Act?

RTE using our license fees spending money on guaranteeing a proportion of Irish language programming? Even when we have TG4 already subsidised to do the same thing? Mad!


Irish is a "nice to have". If it had a future this debate would have ended years ago as people would have actually used it.

Irish = Sky Sports. Pay for it if you're interested.

Nice rant. Feel better?

In fairness, though, it's more him than you.

An Coilean

Grayson wrote: »

I remember reading, years ago, that there were more native cantonese speakers in ireland than Irish speakers.

And considering I get a chinese takeaway every so often I'm actually more likely to hear chinese than irish.

Nope, Chinese is well down the list. Have a look at the census returns, its all there.

Currently there are 4.2 million people in ireland. 72,000 speak irish outside of the education system. that's just over 1.5% of the population.

Its 77,000 actually, there has been a census since 2006

Cú Giobach

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

I'd recommend engaging in debate ahead of condescention regarldess of the quality of the post you're replying to. This may only be the internet, but it looks lke you can't respond rather than don't want to.

Anyway, here's a couple: original point comes first, your responce is underneath in each case.

You were talking shite to me, coming out with a load of random comments directed at me that had nothing whatsoever with what I was posting, discussing or in the case of the comment I responded to with you, even feel, and have consequently never expressed in this or any other thread, you were basically becoming a royal pain in the arse.

In fairness, though, it's more him than you.

So stop the crap then.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Cú Giobach wrote: »

You were talking shite to me, coming out with a load of random comments directed at me that had nothing whatsoever with what I was posting, discussing or in the case of the comment I responded to with you, even feel, and have consequently never expressed in this or any other thread, you were basically becoming a royal pain in the arse.

We'll take the second comment as accepted then.

Regarding the first one, we've been down that road. You were unable to respond to a multiquoted post and rather than ask for clarfication or rebuke the points you ignored them. Instead of, "can you please clarify that?" or "I'm sorry, but I didn't say what you think I said, I said this..." you went for the abusive condescending remark. QED.

Now back on topic.

LordSutch

RandomName2 wrote: »

You mean the lingua franca?

Oh dear. Ultra nationalist alert.

I presume you take most Irish people as Church hating Cromwellians trampling our traditional values of Catholicism, isolationism, Irish-gig dancing, parochial rural suspicion, poverty and bigotry? :rolleyes:

If you dislike Ireland and its people so much (who speak the CONQUEROR's LANGUAGE!!!), there's nobody holding you here. :P

Well said, glad you had a go at him, I can't be arsed any more. Me being a Monoglot english speaking Irish hating Anglophile and all that.
(in his head).

Grayson

Seanchai wrote: »

If you have a deeper knowledge of the Irish language, then obviously you possess a deeper understanding of Irishness than somebody who does not have that knowledge. Other than it's inconvenient for your own limitations, why is this fact being disputed by you? For most identities on this planet, language is the window into their culture, outlook and history.

So, the 98+% of irish people who don't can't speak irish are less irish than you? This includes the musicians, historians and authors who contribute to our culture.

Seanchai wrote: »

It's not an assumption. The writing skills in English of the people here who express contempt and hate for the Irish language are, unsurprisingly, poor. Generally, people who allow their energy to be consumed by hate have lower intelligence.

Good tactic. If you can't tackle an argument, just cast aspirsions regarding anyone who disagrees with you. Look down on them, they must be stupid. All 98% of them. It must be great being part of the master race. And also stating that people who disagree with you are consumed by hate? Really?

Grayson

LordSutch wrote: »

Well said, glad you had a go at him, I can't be arsed any more. Me being a Monoglot english speaking Irish hating Anglophile and all that.
(in his head).

Obviously you're a self loathing, irish hating, west brit.

I'm half expecting to see a newspaper with a photo of Seanchai as Irelands answer to Anders Brevik

Grayson

Actually, to get back to the original thread topic.

It's obvious that pretty much all efforts to revive the Irish language so far have been a failure. I'm certain even the most pro-Irish people in this thread would agree. I mean it's been 90 years since the free state was founded, millions, perhaps billions have been spent in that time and less than 2% speak Irish on a daily basis. I think we can assume that the process so far has been a disastrous failure.

But the topic is can the language be revived. My question to the pro Irish people is, on an on-going basis, what are the criteria for failure/success? One of my favourite shows is Yes Minister. In one episode the minister tries to get a measure pushed through that would decide if projects were success or failures. For all projects, certain metrics would be pre-determined. they would set forth the criteria it had to meet to be a failure and the criteria it had to meet to be a success.
If the curriculum was revamped and new tactics were adopted, what criteria would be necessary to determine if it had been a success or failure?

For example, we could double the number of people who speak Irish at home over a period (say 20 years), but that would be 3-4% of the population. Which I'd think would still be pitiful small.

So what % should we be aiming for realistically, over what time period and how much additional resources would be needed before we declare the tactic successful? And what criteria would you apply to declare it a failure?

Cú Giobach

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

We'll take the first comment as accepted then.

Regarding the second one, we've been down that road. You were unable to respond to a multiquoted post and rather than ask for clarfication or rebuke the points you ignored them. Instead of, "can you please clarify that?" or "I'm sorry, but I didn't say what you think I said, I said this..." you went for the abusive condescending remark. QED.

A multi qouted post?? It was an utter mess until you cleaned it up which was after I responded. Full of repeated comments all over the place both, so called quoted ones ("so called" due to you missing out things in your reply, possibly the "/" or "[]") and your own, which combined with you not actually responding to anything I had written and going off on a random rant made it extremely hard to understand. As I said I will be quite condesending to those that talk shite, which was what that post was. Christ you even started ranting on about multi-quoting later, telling me "first I want it, then I don't" when I made no mention whatsoever of it, you were off your nut that day.
You were actually well deserving of a bit of condescension, and the ignore button.
I stopped responding to you that day because you kept telling me I never said things, things that are actually still there on this web-site for all to see. Madness.

I love your dramatics by the way, calling "You tell em boyo" an abusive condescending remark. You must be very delicate indeed.

Now back on topic.

Good.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Cú Giobach wrote: »

A multi qouted post?? It was an utter mess until you cleaned it up which was after I responded, full of repeated comments both, so called quoted ones ("so called" due to you missing out things in your reply, possibly the "/" or "[]") and your own all over the place, which combined with you not actually responding to anything I had written and going off on a random rant made it extremely hard to understand. As I said I will be quite condesending to those that talk shite, which was what that post was. Christ you even started ranting on about multi-quoting later, telling me "first I want it, then I don't" when I made no mention whatsoever of it, you were off your nut that day.
You were actually well deserving of a bit of condescension, and the ignore button.
I stopped responding to you that day because you kept telling me I never said things, things that are actually still there on this web-site for all to see. Madness.

I think we both know that's not true. Once, possibly, but I tried three times, you ignored all three.

I love your dramatics by the way, calling "You tell em boyo" an abusive condescending remark. You must be very delicate indeed.

And here is another perfect example! You do not in any way defend the fact that your repsonce was condescending, nor do defend making absolutely no rebuttal to the point you were replying to. Instead, condesending remark aimed at me.

Case closed.

Seanchai

LordSutch wrote: »

Well said, glad you had a go at him, I can't be arsed any more. Me being a Monoglot english speaking Irish hating Anglophile and all that

In fairness, Lord Sutch/Camelot, you're that and more in your own head too. You're a notorious apologist for all things British imperialist/nationalist here. Whether it's your commemoration of people who fought for the supremacy of the British Empire, your calling Irish freedom fighters throughout the centuries "terrorists" for resisting British colonial rule here, your devotion to wearing the British poppy and your general and consistent hatred for Irish Ireland, it's only appropriate that yourself and RandomName2 have now met on Boards.ie.

You'll make a wonderful couple and bring up nice Irish-hating kids. With us Irish still around, good luck to you both.

Cú Giobach

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

I think we both know that's not true. Once, possibly, but I tried three times, you ignored all three.

I'm am finished with that, the conversation is still there to be seen if you wish to embarrass yourself.

And here is another perfect example! You do not in any way defend the fact that your repsonce was condescending, nor do defend making absolutely no rebuttal to the point you were replying to. Instead, condesending remark aimed at me.

Yep, anyone who thinks "you tell em boyo" is abusive, deserves condescension (plus pity).

Case closed.

You tell 'em boyo.

LordSutch

Seanchai wrote: »

In fairness, Lord Sutch/Camelot, you're that and more in your own head too. You're a notorious apologist for all things British imperialist/nationalist here. Whether it's your commemoration of people who fought for the supremacy of the British Empire, your calling Irish freedom fighters throughout the centuries "terrorists" for resisting British colonial rule here, your devotion to wearing the British poppy and your general and consistent hatred for Irish Ireland, it's only appropriate that yourself and RandomName2 have now met on Boards.ie.

You'll make a wonderful couple and bring up nice Irish-hating kids. With us Irish still around, good luck to you both.

Jesus Seanchai there you go again, every bleedin time I post anything in any forum on boards.ie you print out that standard reply about poppies Empire, Terrorists, Nationalists, Anti Irish hating Monoglots and the like - you just can't help yourself MR School teacher!

Some school teacher you are matey, people can look back at your posts, and they can look back at mine, and they can make up their own minds. Personally I think I am very accommodating and balanced when it comes to this thread & the Irish language, and that's what this thread is about.

I aint biting anymore Seanchai.

Seanchai

LordSutch wrote: »

Jesus Seanchai there you go again, every bleedin time I post anything in any forum on boards.ie you print out that standard reply about poppies Empire, Terrorists, Nationalists, Anti Irish hating Monoglots and the like - you just can't help yourself MR School teacher!

Some school teacher you are matey, people can look back at your posts, and they can look back at mine, and they can make up their own minds. Personally I think I am very accommodating and balanced when it comes to this thread & the Irish language

Oh Jesus. Go back to England. Personally, I think that if you had every Irish person wearing your British poppy you'd think you were "very accommodating" for allowing the Irish to share in your glorious commemoration of the Black and Tans/the British gulags in Mau Mau Kenya/the British concentration camps in the Boer War....

RandomName2

Seanchai wrote: »

In fairness, Lord Sutch/Camelot, you're that and more in your own head too. You're a notorious apologist for all things British imperialist/nationalist here. Whether it's your commemoration of people who fought for the supremacy of the British Empire, your calling Irish freedom fighters throughout the centuries "terrorists" for resisting British colonial rule here, your devotion to wearing the British poppy and your general and consistent hatred for Irish Ireland, it's only appropriate that yourself and RandomName2 have now met on Boards.ie.

You'll make a wonderful couple and bring up nice Irish-hating kids. With us Irish still around, good luck to you both.

Generally I have thought that Gaeilge has diminished due to lack of relevance. You know, that coupled with the cack handed methods employed by early Irish governments to promote its use and dissemination.

But perhaps the above is the real reason why the language is disappearing; the manner in which ultra-nationalists have appropriated it to their own ends, and attempt to use it as a weapon.

Nationalists the world over have attempted to build barriers and divide society... an US AND THEM mentality. I am no socialist; I have some sympathies with the position of nationalists. I believe culture has importance, as does national identity.

But I am too much of a libertarian to fall into their attempts to pervert what is actually the predominant culture and actual national identity of the country for which they choose to speak.

And slowly, inexorably their old ways on this island are dying out, along with the language over which they have exercised a stranglehold. Ultimately if Gaeilge is to be saved, it must be divorced from this sort of ultra-nationalism. But if the loss of such ultra-nationalism, once and for all, necessitates losing also the Irish language, it would be, in my opinion, a worthwhile sacrifice.

opti0nal

Grayson wrote: »

It's obvious that pretty much all efforts to revive the Irish language so far have been a failure. I'm certain even the most pro-Irish people in this thread would agree. I mean it's been 90 years since the free state was founded, millions, perhaps billions have been spent in that time and less than 2% speak Irish on a daily basis. I think we can assume that the process so far has been a disastrous failure.

Firstly, while I am sure you did not really intend this meaning, could you be more careful with your words? We are all 'pro-Irish', whether or not we choose to speak the language of some of our ancestors.

Many of us are 'pro-Irish language' but there are varying degrees of this commitment ranging from indulgent tolerance to zealous fanaticism.

The revival movement is failing because it fails to understand the real reasons why we choose to speak English. It compounds this failure with delusional metrics and tactics based on coercive measures.