How to revive the Irish language.

Seanchai

RandomName2 wrote: »

Nationalists the world over have attempted to build barriers and divide society... an US AND THEM mentality. I am no socialist; I have some sympathies with the position of nationalists. I believe culture has importance, as does national identity.

But I am too much of a libertarian to fall into their attempts to pervert what is actually the predominant culture and actual national identity of the country for which they choose to speak.

And slowly, inexorably their old ways on this island are dying out, along with the language over which they have exercised a stranglehold. Ultimately if Gaeilge is to be saved, it must be divorced from this sort of ultra-nationalism. But if the loss of such ultra-nationalism, once and for all, necessitates losing also the Irish language, it would be, in my opinion, a worthwhile sacrifice.

Indeed, and a quick glance at your posts reveals you to be quite the ultra nationalist yourself, with your cultural nation being the Anglophone one and your hatred and numerous rants being directed against Irish culture and those in Ireland who don't hold to your reactionary rightwing libertarian British (i.e. English) cultural outlook on the world. But, of course, you're against "ultra nationalists". :rolleyes:

RandomName2

Seanchai wrote: »

quite the ultra nationalist yourself

Err hardly.

We won't go far down this road; but I identify myself with my local culture; which yes, is predominantly Anglophone. People in Gaelteacht areas may identify themselves with a culture which is predominantly Gaelic-phone (?). But both of those are separate from nationalism, as you well know.

Nationalism is saying "Anglophone/British. Gailge/Irish." Or em.. to be liberal is to be... English...

And you may believe most people in Ireland have some cunning vendetta against the Irish language in their Anglophone cultural preferences, and in doing so are secretly making toasts to the health of Elizabeth II, but it just ain't true. :pac:

Doff

This thread is full of trolls, bait takers and win.

An Coilean

Grayson wrote: »

Actually, to get back to the original thread topic.

It's obvious that pretty much all efforts to revive the Irish language so far have been a failure. I'm certain even the most pro-Irish people in this thread would agree. I mean it's been 90 years since the free state was founded, millions, perhaps billions have been spent in that time and less than 2% speak Irish on a daily basis. I think we can assume that the process so far has been a disastrous failure.

To judge success or failure we really need to take a wide look at things, I think it rather simplistic to suppose that focusing on the time span from the foundation of the state to now, and taking the education system, and more specifically the compulsory status of Irish in that system as the only noteworthy factor, will give us anything even close to a balanced or accurate answer to the question.

Firstly the time scale, 90 years or three - four generations is quite a short time span in terms of language shift, it also has the unfortunate effect of discounting what went before. Given that the famin just 80 years before and the waves of emigration triggered by it was still having a huge influence on the linguistic make up of much Ireland, I think it somewhat biased to ignore it.

It should also be noted that the Irish Language movement, later to become the revival movement started some 30 years before the foundation of the state.

But the topic is can the language be revived. My question to the pro Irish people is, on an on-going basis, what are the criteria for failure/success? One of my favourite shows is Yes Minister. In one episode the minister tries to get a measure pushed through that would decide if projects were success or failures. For all projects, certain metrics would be pre-determined. they would set forth the criteria it had to meet to be a failure and the criteria it had to meet to be a success.
If the curriculum was revamped and new tactics were adopted, what criteria would be necessary to determine if it had been a success or failure?

At the risk of sounding like Sir Humphrey Appleby, it should be pointed out that before you set the criteria of success or failure of any given project, you must first examin its background, the climate in which the project is being undertaken and its prospects for success.
Equally when looking back on a project, when assessing it, it is not sufficient to deem it a success or failure without defining what its aims were, what prospect it had of achieving those aims and whether the methods used were appropriat.


With regards the revival of the Irish Language from the foundation of the state, its backround was one of being officially suppressed by those in power, the climate in which the project was being undertaken was one in which extreme poverty and high emigration was a fact of the communities where the language was spoken. A significant stigma had been built up around the speaking of Irish which would take major change to disapate.
As for the prospects of success, the language was in a trend of decline and that decline was supported by social and economic factors.

If we take the criteria for success as being the revival of the language accross the country, which was the stated political aim at the time, then undoubtedly at the current time the revival movement has been a failure.

If however you take a more in depth look, you will see that progress has been made, the trend of decline has been halted, the stigma associated with speaking the language has disapated, the language community, while often ignored and less than equally treated by officialdom, is certainly no longer being suppressed.

There are also several signs the language begining an upward trend, the strenghtening of the language in core Gaeltacht areas, the growth of the Language outside traditional Gaeltacht areas through Gaelscoileanna and the engagement of young people in Irish speaking organisations and clubs around the country.

For example, we could double the number of people who speak Irish at home over a period (say 20 years), but that would be 3-4% of the population. Which I'd think would still be pitiful small.

So what % should we be aiming for realistically, over what time period and how much additional resources would be needed before we declare the tactic successful? And what criteria would you apply to declare it a failure?

As for what criteria should be layed down for success or failure of the revival from here, firstly 20 years is far to short a time frame for significant change. Think of it as a community with a population, it is as unlikely that the number of Native Irish speakers will dubble in a single generation as it is that the population of the country will.

More realistic goals would be the consolidation of the Irish speaking communities in the Gaeltacht, the continuing growth of the Gaelscoil movement and increasing the number of people who can speak Irish through giving them the oppertunity to do so.

Failure being the resumption of decline in the numbers of native Irish speakers, the halting or decline of the Gaelscoil movement and a fall in the number of people who can speak Irish.

Grayson

opti0nal wrote: »

Firstly, while I am sure you did not really intend this meaning, could you be more careful with your words? We are all 'pro-Irish', whether or not we choose to speak the language of some of our ancestors.

Many of us are 'pro-Irish language' but there are varying degrees of this commitment ranging from indulgent tolerance to zealous fanaticism.

The revival movement is failing because it fails to understand the real reasons why we choose to speak English. It compounds this failure with delusional metrics and tactics based on coercive measures.

Ok, pro Irish language then. Except for Seanchai I didn't think there was anyone on the thread who would take a phrase like that, in that context to mean Anti Irish people/culture/music etc...



Personally I think it's (the irish language) pretty much past the point of no return.

If I made an effort and went and took irish lessons, I'd have a language I couldn't use. Nobody I know speaks Irish. I know nowhere I could use it. Well, I'm sure there are places, but why would I go there.

I'd learn french so I could speak french when I go to france. But I don't fancy taking holidays in the gaeltacht every year or even occasionally.

Irish outside of the west is pretty much dead. And I think the task of getting everyone fluent in it would be comparable to attempting to get everyone fluent in latin.

It might be possible to preserve what's left, but it would involve investment in the area, not investment in the language. The gaeltachts are isolated, remote and quite poor really. There's no reason to go there except to learn irish. And people who grow up there move away because the irish industry / cottage farming can't support them all and a lot don't want to work in that industry anyway.
We'd need to work on expanding that community and making it a viable economic community.

If that community could be expanded to 100k then it would be a viable language.

But at the moment, I think it can be compared to viable populations of endangered species. There is always a point where there are too few to repopulate the species. There's too little genetic diversity.

With younger people moving from gaelteachts, the number of speakers will decline even further. According to the last census there's 22k people in the gaelteachts, but these are in communities scattered across the west coast. I think the gaeltachts will die out within 40 years and at that point the language will be dead.

opti0nal

An Coilean wrote: »

There are also several signs the language begining an upward trend, the strenghtening of the language in core Gaeltacht areas,

How does what you say equate with this statement, which says the opposite, on the website of the Irish Language Commissioner?

There are currently Gaeltacht areas in seven counties (Donegal, Mayo, Galway, Kerry, Cork, Waterford and Meath). The economic development of the Gaeltacht has, however, been accompanied by declining percentages of Irish speakers. In 2002, a government commission reported that of the 154 electoral divisions in the Gaeltacht, only 18 divisions have 75% or more people in them who are daily speakers of Irish.

Ken.

The best way to revive the Irish language is ban it. Make it an offence to speak it,read it or write it. 6 months in jail for anyone caught.
We all know the Irish like bending the rules. There would be uproar and people would flock to learn Irish just to p*ss off the law makers.

I'd say we would have 95% Irish speaking within 5-10 years.

Cú Giobach

Grayson wrote: »

The gaeltachts are isolated, remote and quite poor really. There's no reason to go there except to learn irish. And people who grow up there move away because the irish industry / cottage farming can't support them all and a lot don't want to work in that industry anyway.

It's not 1950 you know . Nowhere is really isolated anywhere in Ireland anymore with modern technology, Connemara has serious links with one of Ireland's biggest cities and even the Aran Island ferries are like something out of James Bond.
No reason to go there?? Tell that to the tourists, one of if not the major industry which you forgot about, not to mention small technology driven industries.

I'd say it's a while since you were last "out West", the days of knitting by firelight, along with everyone scratching a bare existence from the sea or land are well gone.

Grayson

Cú Giobach wrote: »

It's not 1950 you know . Nowhere is really isolated anywhere in Ireland anymore with modern technology, Connemara has serious links with one of Ireland's biggest cities and even the Aran Island ferries are like something out of James Bond.
No reason to go there?? Tell that to the tourists, one of if not the major industry which you forgot about, not to mention small technology driven industries.

I'd say it's a while since you were last "out West", the days of knitting by firelight, along with everyone scratching a bare existence from the sea or land are well gone.

My family live in the back end of Mayo. Three years ago I was sitting next to a coworker who was from Sweden. It was christmas eve. We both left work at the same time (on the northside about halfway between the city centre and the airport). We were both heading home. She was at her house outside stockholm before i was in mayo. I was getting the train. Once I got to Westport it was still another hour to get home.

The Dublin - Galway road might be ok, but if your anywhere off the main roads to galway or limerick, it's a nightmare to travel. The road from longford to castlebar is really bad.

And I don't know when the last time you were in donegal, but try getting from Dungloe to Donegal town. It's a good 45 minutes to an hour for a trip that could be 20 minutes if the roads were straight.

the gaeltachts are quite small areas
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/03/Gaeltacht_2007.jpg

The west might get some tourism, but the gaeltacht is not the cause of it. That tourism would still be there even if the language completly died. My point was that there isn't enough to support an expansion of the population in gaeltacht areas. Or are you saying that it is and it needs no development? Or are you just picking on something for the hell of it?

Cú Giobach

Grayson wrote: »

My family live in the back end of Mayo. Three years ago I was sitting next to a coworker who was from Sweden. It was christmas eve. We both left work at the same time (on the northside about halfway between the city centre and the airport). We were both heading home. She was at her house outside stockholm before i was in mayo. I was getting the train. Once I got to Westport it was still another hour to get home.

That means nothing. It was quicker to take Concorde from London to NY than it is to drive from Cork to Dublin today, so what? What if your Swedish friend lived on one of the many islands and had to take a plane, train, bus and ferry?? It's a totally meaningless comparison. It's interesting that you mention Sweden though, now there's a country with some remote and isolated spots, not Ireland.
P.S. The ISS goes around the whole Earth in 90 mins.

Being a bit of a trip from Dublin does not equal isolated by the way, believe it or not but for quite a few of us going to and from Dublin plays no part in our lives.

The Dublin - Galway road might be ok, but if your anywhere off the main roads to galway or limerick, it's a nightmare to travel. The road from longford to castlebar is really bad.
And I don't know when the last time you were in donegal, but try getting from Dungloe to Donegal town. It's a good 45 minutes to an hour for a trip that could be 20 minutes if the roads were straight.

This isn't a discussion about the state of the nations roads. And since when was a 45 minute drive remote and isolated, that is less time than a great many of the commuters who work in Dublin spend driving, and they do it twice a day.

The west might get some tourism, but the gaeltacht is not the cause of it. That tourism would still be there even if the language completly died. My point was that there isn't enough to support an expansion of the population in gaeltacht areas. Or are you saying that it is and it needs no development? Or are you just picking on something for the hell of it?

Nobody said the language was the point of tourism but mentioning the Irish (language) industry and cottage farming, while not just ignoring one of the major employers in the West, tourism, but saying "nobody goes there" just to make a point is slightly misleading don't you think.
Picking you up on your rather exaggerated comments is also not saying that no investment is needed.

Grayson

Dude, You're ignoring the point. You said I wasn't in the west at all. My family are from there.

The reason I mention Dungloe being 45 mins to an hour is because that's a journey that's in the same county. It's not even the length of the county. And Dungloe is still 5 hours from Dublin by bus. And there are no trains. These are places where a 4 mile journey can take 20 minutes.
This is a journey that would take far less time in any other country.

And it is a discussion about the nations roads. I said that these places are remote and isolated. That refers to how hard it is to get there and how long it takes. You haven't argued against that.

If you want irish to make a comeback you need to invest in the existing community and make sure it becomes a viable economic community in it's own right.

In many ways these places are becoming more accessable. The reason irish survived there when it dies out in other areas centuries before is because they were remote. But now that they are less so, they are suffering from outward migration. People move from there because they get better opportunities elsewhere in the country. At the same time, they are still remote enough that there isn't enough inward investment. Jobs aren't being created which would keep a young irish speaking population there.

Our two options are either
1) stop anyone from leaving there. Create a type of penal colony.
2) Invest in the area so that less people will leave and others will move there.

opti0nal

Grayson wrote: »

If you want irish to make a comeback you need to invest in the existing community and make sure it becomes a viable economic community in it's own right. ...Our two options are either
1) stop anyone from leaving there. Create a type of penal colony.
2) Invest in the area so that less people will leave and others will move there.

Careful there. One of the acknowledged reasons for the decline of Irish speaking in Gaeltacht areas is the influx of English-speakers attracted by the new industries. This led to local Irish-speakers using English more when socialising with their English-speaking co-workers.

Ideally, to preserve the integrity of these Gaeltacts, not only must one prevent Irish-speakers from leaving but also you'd have find some way of restricting the jobs to authentic Irish-speakers and perhaps requiring parents of mixed language heritage to undertake to bring their children up through the medium of Irish.

It sounds like a human-rights minefield.

But then again, the Irish lobby have been able to impose Irish language lessons on English-speaking children for many decades, so perhaps we should not underestimate what they are capable of.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Cú Giobach wrote: »

I'm am finished with that, the conversation is still there to be seen if you wish to embarrass yourself.

Yep, anyone who thinks "you tell em boyo" is abusive, deserves condescension (plus pity).

You tell 'em boyo.

Well, put it this way: did you respond to the points he raised? No, you did not.

This is the problem: Someone raises a legitimate point about resoting the language and the best responce one of the more allegedly knowledgeable people on the thread ignores it, deems it ****e and drones out "you tell em boyo".

This, and the converation with An Coilean I had proves the biggest problems with restoring the Irish langauge: those who want to see it reveived, don't want to listen to possibile solutions from outside their own little clique and perceive anything such as an attack. Unable to respond to such, and unable to accept such ideas as possibly havign merit, the onlyroute left is condescention.

Which, let's face it, doesn't really help or contribute to a revival, does it?

Cú Giobach

Grayson wrote: »

Dude, You're ignoring the point. You said I wasn't in the west at all. My family are from there.

The reason I mention Dungloe being 45 mins to an hour is because that's a journey that's in the same county. It's not even the length of the county. And Dungloe is still 5 hours from Dublin by bus. And there are no trains. These are places where a 4 mile journey can take 20 minutes.
This is a journey that would take far less time in any other country.

And it is a discussion about the nations roads. I said that these places are remote and isolated. That refers to how hard it is to get there and how long it takes. You haven't argued against that.

If you want irish to make a comeback you need to invest in the existing community and make sure it becomes a viable economic community in it's own right.

In many ways these places are becoming more accessable. The reason irish survived there when it dies out in other areas centuries before is because they were remote. But now that they are less so, they are suffering from outward migration. People move from there because they get better opportunities elsewhere in the country. At the same time, they are still remote enough that there isn't enough inward investment. Jobs aren't being created which would keep a young irish speaking population there.

Our two options are either
1) stop anyone from leaving there. Create a type of penal colony.
2) Invest in the area so that less people will leave and others will move there.

I picked you up on your exaggerations.

The gaeltachts are isolated, remote and quite poor really. There's no reason to go there except to learn irish. And people who grow up there move away because the irish industry / cottage farming can't support them all and a lot don't want to work in that industry anyway.

Nowhere in Ireland is really remote in this day and age. Your obsession with travel time to Dublin is something very relevant to you but not a measure of remoteness. This seems to be nothing more than a difference of perspective between someone who lives in rural W'Cork and someone who lives in Dublin.
If you knew where I lived you might consider me isolated, I would say I certainly am not.

You have already debunked your own statement saying there is no reason to go there except to learn Irish, by saying the tourist industry isn't dependant on the language.

You totally ignored one of, if not the major industry of the areas with your Irish industry/cottage farming comment.

As I said, my picking up on the above exaggerations is not my saying investment is not needed, nor did I say people were not leaving the areas.
What more can I say?

Cú Giobach

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Well, put it this way: did you respond to the points he raised? No, you did not.

This is the problem: Someone raises a legitimate point about resoting the language and the best responce one of the more allegedly knowledgeable people on the thread ignores it, deems it ****e and drones out "you tell em boyo".

This, and the converation with An Coilean I had proves the biggest problems with restoring the Irish langauge: those who want to see it reveived, don't want to listen to possibile solutions from outside their own little clique and perceive anything such as an attack. Unable to respond to such, and unable to accept such ideas as possibly havign merit, the onlyroute left is condescention.

Which, let's face it, doesn't really help or contribute to a revival, does it?

Christ will you ever stop your incessant moaning. :rolleyes:

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Christ will you ever stop your incessant moaning. :rolleyes:

I see. Well, that kind of proves my point, really...

Debate my points about the inadequacies/strengths of the language revival and the attitudes of those trying to bring it about here, please, and send the cheapshots via PM. Everyone's happy.

opti0nal

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Christ will you ever stop your incessant moaning. :rolleyes:

That sounds very much like what my Irish teacher said before reaching for his leather.

Grayson

Cú Giobach wrote: »

I picked you up on your exaggerations.

Nowhere in Ireland is really remote in this day and age. Your obsession with travel time to Dublin is something very relevant to you but not a measure of remoteness. This seems to be nothing more than a difference of perspective between someone who lives in rural W'Cork and someone who lives in Dublin.
If you knew where I lived you might consider me isolated, I would say I certainly am not.

You have already debunked your own statement saying there is no reason to go there except to learn Irish, by saying the tourist industry isn't dependant on the language.

You totally ignored one of, if not the major industry of the areas with your Irish industry/cottage farming comment.

As I said, my picking up on the above exaggerations is not my saying investment is not needed, nor did I say people were not leaving the areas.
What more can I say?

To get to Mayo from Dublin, the last half of the distance takes more than 2/3rds of the total time. If you want to get anywhere in Donegal, you have to spend ****ing ages. If you live in Achill, the nearest towns are miles away. You have to really travel to get any work that doesn't involve some cottage industry. And tourism is a cottage industry in those areas. There might be big hotels etc... in the major towns, but gaeltachts aren't located in major towns. Their isolation makes them havens for the language but also means that anyone who wants a job outside of the cottage industries there has to move away.

That was my point. If you want to nit pick over details, go ahead, troll away.

Grayson

opti0nal wrote: »

Careful there. One of the acknowledged reasons for the decline of Irish speaking in Gaeltacht areas is the influx of English-speakers attracted by the new industries. This led to local Irish-speakers using English more when socialising with their English-speaking co-workers.

Ideally, to preserve the integrity of these Gaeltacts, not only must one prevent Irish-speakers from leaving but also you'd have find some way of restricting the jobs to authentic Irish-speakers and perhaps requiring parents of mixed language heritage to undertake to bring their children up through the medium of Irish.

It sounds like a human-rights minefield.

But then again, the Irish lobby have been able to impose Irish language lessons on English-speaking children for many decades, so perhaps we should not underestimate what they are capable of.

You're right. But if I don't believe it's possible at all to revive the language in a place like Dublin. Billions could be spent and we'd be at the same place we are now.
If the language is going to be preserved, then the best option is to preserve the tiny pockets where it's spoken now. Then expand those pockets.
If that can't be done then it will be completely dead.

opti0nal

Grayson wrote: »

If the language is going to be preserved, then the best option is to preserve the tiny pockets where it's spoken now. Then expand those pockets.
If that can't be done then it will be completely dead.

The dilemma is that language does not exist in a vacuum, it's an integral part of a functioning society and which primary language is chosen by the members of that society depends on a number of cultural and economic factors such as heritage and trading partners.

LordSutch

Well just in case its not patently obvious, the biggest hurdle the revival of the Irish language has always been the ham fisted approach to the teaching of . . . The bleak & dreary curriculum which is/was in place for several decades (Peig obviously comes to mind) always instilling a rather dark & dreary vision of the language for many.

I remember well the hatred we had for our primary school teacher in particular who was a real Gaelic speaking Nazi type if ever ther was, the meter stick being administered to at least one of us every other day on the back of the legs, and there was always an air of real fear in the room as we heard him approaching/marching in his brown brogue shoes, and I am not exaggerating, this teacher was scary, and if he told you to stand up and read your homework or any passage in Irish, you would do so with a real fear that if you faltered you would get the stick! < Armed with this we entered secondary school with a hatred for the language . . . .

That's my personal story above^ but nowadays I am sure its different in school, the physical punishment has long gone and the curriculum is more modern I guess? also gone is the dreary grey image of the language and the stuffy poems and stories that always seemed to be set on the west coast, in the bleak 1950s, in the middle of winter, in the rain, in black and white.

It took me ages to get over my hatred of the language, and then many years later (it dawned on me that I didn't have a hatred for Irish at all), it was the teacher/teachers who taught Irish with an iron fist, and that effing meter ruler back in the day. The Irish langauage itself is fine, just not sure that it should be mandatory for all kids, of all ages, and in all schools, and I say this (against the backdrop of leaving cert students with only the cupla focal to show) after studying Irish up until seventeen/eighteen/nineteen years of age :cool:

Grayson

LordSutch wrote: »

Well just in case its not patently obvious, the biggest hurdle the revival of the Irish language has always been the ham fisted approach to the teaching of . . . The bleak & dreary curriculum which is/was in place for several decades (Peig obviously comes to mind) always instilling a rather dark & dreary vision of the language for many.

I remember well the hatred we had for our primary school teacher in particular who was a real Gaelic speaking Nazi type if ever ther was, the meter stick being administered to at least one of us every other day on the back of the legs, and there was always an air of real fear in the room as we heard him approaching/marching in his brown brogue shoes, and I am not exaggerating, this teacher was scary, and if he told you to stand up and read your homework or any passage in Irish, you would do so with a real fear that if you faltered you would get the stick! < Armed with this we entered secondary school with a hatred for the language . . . .

That's my personal story above^ but nowadays I am sure its different in school, the physical punishment has long gone and the curriculum is more modern I guess? also gone is the dreary grey image of the language and the stuffy poems and stories that always seemed to be set on the west coast, in the bleak 1950s, in the middle of winter, in the rain, in black and white.

It took me ages to get over my hatred of the language, and then many years later (it dawned on me that I didn't have a hatred for Irish at all), it was the teacher/teachers who taught Irish with an iron fist, and that effing meter ruler back in the day. The Irish langauage itself is fine, just not sure that it should be mandatory for all kids, of all ages, and in all schools, and I say this (against the backdrop of leaving cert students with only the cupla focal to show) after studying Irish up until seventeen/eighteen/nineteen years of age :cool:

I think every sane person, pro irish language (see, I remembered that time) or anti irish language is grateful Peig was removed from the curriculum.

Cú Giobach

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

I see. Well, that kind of proves my point, really...

Debate my points about the inadequacies/strengths of the language revival and the attitudes of those trying to bring it about here, please, and send the cheapshots via PM. Everyone's happy.

Your point was about being condescending with people disagreeing with me on the topic of the Irish language, not with people who are incessantly nagging like you are doing, you have proven absolutely nothing. I suppose the fact that you are demanding I debate the language, yet all you have done for 24 hours is criticise me personally with no mention of the language whatsoever, has skipped your notice. :rolleyes:
You haven't said one word about the language in this little nag of yours, all you are doing is being critical of people, nag nag nag.
Fortunately there is a solution for that, so I will no longer be even reading your sad little moans let alone responding to them. Slán.

opti0nal

LordSutch wrote: »

The bleak & dreary curriculum which is/was in place for several decades (Peig obviously comes to mind) always instilling a rather dark & dreary vision of the language for many.... this teacher was scary, and if he told you to stand up and read your homework or any passage in Irish, you would do so with a real fear that if you faltered you would get the stick! < Armed with this we entered secondary school with a hatred for the....

I've sometimes thought about why Irish has been imposed in such a fashion, often coupled with an unbalanced version of Anglo Irish history. I can still recall the fear of small children in the classrooms as Irish lessons loomed. The smell of urine when a 10 year old was called out on the Tuiseal Gnath Laithreach, then teased about his English surname before being whipped with a specially seasoned brown leather strap on his tiny hands. Scurrying away trying to blow cold air on them to ease the pain.

Perhaps such teachers saw Ireland's English speaking children as representing the English nation they so hated and vented their anger on them?

If the behaviour of Irish enthusiasts is seen as forming part of a cycle of abuse, this might go some way to explain attitudes of both Irish and English speakers.

Cú Giobach

Grayson wrote: »

To get to Mayo from Dublin, the last half of the distance takes more than 2/3rds of the total time. If you want to get anywhere in Donegal, you have to spend ****ing ages. If you live in Achill, the nearest towns are miles away. You have to really travel to get any work that doesn't involve some cottage industry. And tourism is a cottage industry in those areas. There might be big hotels etc... in the major towns, but gaeltachts aren't located in major towns. Their isolation makes them havens for the language but also means that anyone who wants a job outside of the cottage industries there has to move away.

That was my point. If you want to nit pick over details, go ahead, troll away.

Dublin Dublin Dublin, Christ you are obsessed with the place, and that last sentence says it all, someone who disagrees with you about something is a troll. Sad.
Since you seem unable to differentiate between rural and isolated and don't seem to have a concept of what an isolated place really is, there is no point in going any further with this.

Quick question!

Why doesn't TG4 run end to end Irish language lessons during the "silent hours" rather than Euronews and the like that can be carried on any of the (now) eight Saorview channels and carry the learning resources on the TG4.ie website.

Free and unlimited access to learning material will help those who want to learn/improve their language skills, if you don't want to learn, just don't watch or go to the websites etc

Seanchai

opti0nal wrote: »

I can still recall the fear of small children in the classrooms as Irish lessons loomed. The smell of urine when a 10 year old was called out on the Tuiseal Gnath Laithreach, then teased about his English surname before being whipped with a specially seasoned brown leather strap on his tiny hands. Scurrying away trying to blow cold air on them to ease the pain.

Perhaps such teachers saw Ireland's English speaking children as representing the English nation they so hated and vented their anger on them?

Christ almighty, you're a walking stereotype of melodrama, hyperbole, lies, ahistoricism and hate when it comes to Irish. From reading this nonsense one would think you've just survived Auschwitz. Please get counselling for all this hatred.

Seanchai

dolanbaker wrote: »

Quick question!

Why doesn't TG4 run end to end Irish language lessons during the "silent hours" rather than Euronews and the like that can be carried on any of the (now) eight Saorview channels and carry the learning resources on the TG4.ie website.

Free and unlimited access to learning material will help those who want to learn/improve their language skills, if you don't want to learn, just don't watch or go to the websites etc

Good idea. With digital tv they could even show some of the excellent documentaries with English *and* Irish subtitles optional. That way you can watch them in Irish and if you get lost you can turn on English subtitles, rewind and get the meaning, turn off subtitles and carry on.

dan dan

One of the biggest barriers to learning irish is the fact it`s not sexy. Go to learn it and you are firmly planted in the area of asses carts .currachs, and stone wall little intrigues.

Make the language ,part of modern times. Have the scenarios. up to the minute stuff and set the learning process in 21st century ireland . I love all the old stuff but it is killing irish not curing it.

dan dan

dan dan wrote: »

One of the biggest barriers to learning irish is the fact it`s not sexy. Go to learn it and you are firmly planted in the area of asses carts .currachs, and stone wall little intrigues.

Make the language ,part of modern times. Have the scenarios. up to the minute stuff and set the learning process in 21st century ireland . I love all the old stuff but it is killing irish not curing it.

It's not all like that, http://ibcontent.comrz.com/AcuCustom/Sitename/DAM/005/GIL9780717137596_Main.jpg

LordSutch

Seanchai wrote: »

Christ almighty, you're a walking stereotype of melodrama, hyperbole, lies, ahistoricism and hate when it comes to Irish. From reading this nonsense one would think you've just survived Auschwitz. Please get counselling for all this hatred.

Hmm, I wonder did that teacher I spoke of in #1123 have a son?

gobnaitolunacy

dan dan wrote: »

One of the biggest barriers to learning irish is the fact it`s not sexy. Go to learn it and you are firmly planted in the area of asses carts .currachs, and stone wall little intrigues.

Make the language ,part of modern times. Have the scenarios. up to the minute stuff and set the learning process in 21st century ireland . I love all the old stuff but it is killing irish not curing it.

Gneas istigh sa Cathair?


No, Irish is about as sexy as getting a glimpse of Peig's minge.

mathstalk

Deleted User wrote: »

Quick question!

Why doesn't TG4 run end to end Irish language lessons during the "silent hours" rather than Euronews and the like that can be carried on any of the (now) eight Saorview channels and carry the learning resources on the TG4.ie website.

Free and unlimited access to learning material will help those who want to learn/improve their language skills, if you don't want to learn, just don't watch or go to the websites etc

Money.

mathstalk

mathstalk wrote: »

Money.

If they broadcasted older stuff, then the costs would be minimal, or just commission some educational programmes for TG4, studio based shows aren’t that expensive to produce.

Pumpkinseeds

I think that the Irish language is entirely redundant to most Irish people, and that it is as far removed from modern Irish culture as it is possible to be. I feel that its high time to stop trying to flog a dead language, lets just let it be an optional subject in schools for students that want to learn it. Lets be honest, most people couldn't give a rats proverbial about the Irish language. It is an ugly language and a dull one to learn.

In my opinion the Irish language is not something that most Irish people identify with or care about it is irrelevant to the lives of most Irish people. Time to let it die.

mathstalk

Deleted User wrote: »

If they broadcasted older stuff, then the costs would be minimal, or just commission some educational programmes for TG4, studio based shows aren’t that expensive to produce.

I'm pretty sure TG4 aren't the ones "broadcasting" Euro News. The channel simply switches over to another network. If they were, themselves, to broadcast their own shows it would at least cost a small amount of money, which wouldn't be worth it, considering the tiny number of people watching.

Even so, the best way to learn is through example, so it would be far better to broadcast normal TG4 shows (whatever those may be) as opposed to formal educational shows.

opti0nal

Seanchai wrote: »

Christ almighty, you're a walking stereotype of melodrama, hyperbole, lies, ahistoricism and hate when it comes to Irish.

I can see you're angry when wrongdoing by the Irish language movement is mentioned and your first reaction is to try and silence critics through abuse and ridicule.

Can you give examples of hatred or lies in my posts?

Let's address these issues so that you can make progress.

Grayson

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Dublin Dublin Dublin, Christ you are obsessed with the place, and that last sentence says it all, someone who disagrees with you about something is a troll. Sad.
Since you seem unable to differentiate between rural and isolated and don't seem to have a concept of what an isolated place really is, there is no point in going any further with this.

You're the one obsessed with Dublin. My point is that the transport infrastructure in the west is appalling. But you're just picking on the fact that I mentioned Dublin. You can't even be bothered looking at what i was actually saying and addressing the post. Instead you pick a little point and obsess about that. You sir, are trolling.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Your point was about being condescending with people disagreeing with me on the topic of the Irish language, not with people who are incessantly nagging like you are doing, you have proven absolutely nothing. I suppose the fact that you are demanding I debate the language, yet all you have done for 24 hours is criticise me personally with no mention of the language whatsoever, has skipped your notice. :rolleyes:
You haven't said one word about the language in this little nag of yours, all you are doing is being critical of people, nag nag nag.
Fortunately there is a solution for that, so I will no longer be even reading your sad little moans let alone responding to them. Slán.

Sweet, Jesus - and you've contributed what exacrtly....??!

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Well, put it this way: did you respond to the points he raised? No, you did not.

This is the problem: Someone raises a legitimate point about resoting the language and the best responce one of the more allegedly knowledgeable people on the thread ignores it, deems it ****e and drones out "you tell em boyo".

This, and the converation with An Coilean I had proves the biggest problems with restoring the Irish langauge: those who want to see it reveived, don't want to listen to possibile solutions from outside their own little clique and perceive anything such as an attack. Unable to respond to such, and unable to accept such ideas as possibly havign merit, the onlyroute left is condescention.

Which, let's face it, doesn't really help or contribute to a revival, does it?

I've also suggested to another poster that those wishing to revive Irish are too focused on school and Gaeltacht associations, where you will only reach those who are already intested, but not in the last 24 hours.

Now, like I said. Ad hominem attacks via PM, a responce to the idea that elitism within Irish-speaking circles and an over emphasis on education helps/hinders a revival in your next post.

Interest in History

Seanchai wrote: »

Christ almighty, you're a walking stereotype of melodrama, hyperbole, lies, ahistoricism and hate when it comes to Irish. ....

This was your response to a description of a bad situation in the worst days of the Revival as it affected the schools. But you were wrong to dismiss the description given by somebody who experienced it. Those times did have some really bad aspects in our schools. Really bad.

I don't want to provide some matching facts because those times are long gone and recalling the historical situation is only of use to us in understanding the rejection of the Revival and the Revivalists in a past era. The discussion to-day is completely different.

One central difference now to the situation in the class then, which has nothing to do with Irish itself, is that corporal punishment was outlawed in 1983. If you haven't been beaten by a deranged Christian Brother in an 'A' school, using fists, stick or strap, then you would not be aware that your ironic reference to Auschwitz would not be seen by all readers as ironic.

opti0nal

Interest in History wrote: »

recalling the historical situation is only of use to us in understanding the rejection of the Revival and the Revivalists in a past era. The discussion to-day is completely different....One central difference now to the situation in the class then, which has nothing to do with Irish itself, is that corporal punishment was outlawed in 1983.

Coercion is still with us. Lack of respect for Irish-people's choice of English is also still with us. Past acts are still relevant as their consequences are still in effect.

The Irish language cannot just be just be taught, no matter how enlightened the teacher. It must be accepted by whole families or it has nowhere to thrive. There are many reasons why this has not happened and will not happen. Among these reasons are the past repressive behaviour of the Irish language's proponents juxtaposed with the social pressure to 'support the language'.

Given the deep seated resentment & fear & sense of shame (in Englsih speakers) generated by the language movement in the past, it is not surprising that adults, faced with a questionnaire from the authorities will publicly profess their support for the language while privately vowing never to learn or speak it.

indioblack

So we have come to a position in this thread where we have discussed government initiatives over nearly a century, coercion vs no coercion, and the transportation system in parts of the west of Ireland.
Oh, and imperialism and Kenya thrown in to boot. I'm waiting for Amritsar and the Bengal famine to come up next.
The hardline proponents of an Irish language revival should train their guns on the one section of the Irish population with the power to instigate this.
They are the majority in Ireland, and they have demonstrated by their action, or rather inaction, that they can't or won't learn Irish.

oldmangrub

Deleted User wrote: »

Quick question!

Why doesn't TG4 run end to end Irish language lessons during the "silent hours" rather than Euronews and the like that can be carried on any of the (now) eight Saorview channels and carry the learning resources on the TG4.ie website.

Free and unlimited access to learning material will help those who want to learn/improve their language skills, if you don't want to learn, just don't watch or go to the websites etc

I'm imagining the kind of people who'd be trying to learn a language or engage in any type of mental activity in the silent hours. Drunkards and the chemically intoxicated waking up in the morning with a cúpla focal wondering "where the f*** was I last night?" Maybe call it "Grass agus Gaeilge" and have a bit of Pink Floyd playing in the background.

TG4 isn't directly involved in promoting Irish; their role is in entertainment and not education. Much to the annoyance of lots of school teachers I'm sure. I presume learners make up a lot of their viewership but I think they've good reasons to avoid any of those associations. Not that they're purposefully avoiding them; it's just not anything to do with them. Their base audience wouldn't have much need for them obviously. Basically, not their role and not their focus. RTÉ's Turas Teanga was quite successful, I don't know if they'll bother producing a new show of that ilk when they're still making profits from sales though. Sharon Ní Bheoláin should do the right thing for aspiring Gaeilgeoirs and set up a youtube channel.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

oldmangrub wrote: »

I'm imagining the kind of people who'd be trying to learn a language or engage in any type of mental activity in the silent hours. Drunkards and the chemically intoxicated waking up in the morning with a cúpla focal wondering "where the f*** was I last night?" Maybe call it "Grass agus Gaeilge" and have a bit of Pink Floyd playing in the background.

TG4 isn't directly involved in promoting Irish; their role is in entertainment and not education. Much to the annoyance of lots of school teachers I'm sure. I presume learners make up a lot of their viewership but I think they've good reasons to avoid any of those associations. Not that they're purposefully avoiding them; it's just not anything to do with them. Their base audience wouldn't have much need for them obviously. Basically, not their role and not their focus. RTÉ's Turas Teanga was quite successful, I don't know if they'll bother producing a new show of that ilk when they're still making profits from sales though. Sharon Ní Bheoláin should do the right thing for aspiring Gaeilgeoirs and set up a youtube channel.

Those of us who are insomniacs or work night shifts, to answer your question. It's how I started learning German before I moved over here.

Good question though: would it cost too much to have Euronews as gaelige?

An Coilean

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Those of us who are insomniacs or work night shifts, to answer your question. It's how I started learning German before I moved over here.

Good question though: would it cost too much to have Euronews as gaelige?

Who would pay for it? The makers of Euronews? I doubt it, TG4? Already has a news service.

An Coilean

opti0nal wrote: »

Coercion is still with us. Lack of respect for Irish-people's choice of English is also still with us. Past acts are still relevant as their consequences are still in effect.

The Irish language cannot just be just be taught, no matter how enlightened the teacher. It must be accepted by whole families or it has nowhere to thrive. There are many reasons why this has not happened and will not happen. Among these reasons are the past repressive behaviour of the Irish language's proponents juxtaposed with the social pressure to 'support the language'.

Given the deep seated resentment & fear & sense of shame (in Englsih speakers) generated by the language movement in the past, it is not surprising that adults, faced with a questionnaire from the authorities will publicly profess their support for the language while privately vowing never to learn or speak it.

Its fascinating to see how much bile an individual can spew on the topic of language promotion.

You talk of deep seated fear, resentment and shame as if they are fact, yet provide not a jot of evidence in support, you would imagine that if it was so deep seated and widespread there would be more evidence of it, the mind boggels at the leaps in logic some people are happy to make to preserve their petty hatreds.

Could you clear one thing up for me, if these people are making these vows in private, how is it that you know about it?
Maybe you talk about it in Irish Language survivor meetings?

opti0nal

An Coilean wrote: »

You talk of deep seated fear, resentment and shame as if they are fact, yet provide not a jot of evidence in support, you would imagine that if it was so deep seated and widespread there would be more evidence of it...

I see nothing hateful in saying that for Irish to thrive, a whole family must speak it?

The evidence of why this does not happen is all around you, but you refuse to hear it.

Interest in History

opti0nal wrote: »

Coercion is still with us. Lack of respect for Irish-people's choice of English is also still with us. .

Conor Bruise O'Brien wrote about this, a good while ago now. He said that the official rejection of the language we actually speak while lauding a language that we don't speak showed elements of some sort of schizophrenia. His article is on sites.google.com/site/failedrevival

oldmangrub

oldmangrub wrote: »

I'm imagining the kind of people who'd be trying to learn a language or engage in any type of mental activity in the silent hours. Drunkards and the chemically intoxicated waking up in the morning with a cúpla focal wondering "where the f*** was I last night?" Maybe call it "Grass agus Gaeilge" and have a bit of Pink Floyd playing in the background.

I was thinking more of people "time shifting"! the programmes to watch at a more convenient time, almost everyone has access to a video recording device of some type.

Cú Giobach

Grayson wrote: »

You're the one obsessed with Dublin. My point is that the transport infrastructure in the west is appalling. But you're just picking on the fact that I mentioned Dublin. You can't even be bothered looking at what i was actually saying and addressing the post. Instead you pick a little point and obsess about that. You sir, are trolling.

Accusing someone of trolling (apart from being against the charter here and reportable) is quite pathetic if they are just disagreeing with you.

It would be more like trolling to imply that the only reason the masses of British, German, American, Dutch, Irish.....etc, tourists who visit the likes of, Dingle, Dún Chaoin, The Aran Islands, Connamara, Achil, Belmullet, Gweedore or Dungloe every year are only going to learn Irish.

Grayson wrote: »

There's no reason to go there except to learn irish.

As would stating the above places have little contact with, or are hard get to from, the outside world, which is what an isolated place/community actually is, ie one isolated from the wider world, not one with dodgy roads compared to certain (not quote "any other") countries, nor one that, as you mention in every single post, is a bit of a treck fom Dublin.
Your point was not about the state of the roads so stop shifting the goalposts, your point was the above mentioned communities are isolated, the state of the roads = fucked up suspensions not isolation (Having spent 20 years driving, and 10 years before that just travelling, all over the NW, W and SW of Ireland I find your idea that the state of the roads = isolation for those places today, quite laughable).