How to revive the Irish language.

Interest in History

opti0nal wrote: »

..... Lack of respect for Irish-people's choice of English is also still with us. Past acts are still relevant as their consequences are still in effect.

.

I looked up that article of Cruise O'Brien's. One part has this:

"Since we have collectively - and silently - decided to go on speaking English. we must, for the sake of our psychological health, come to terms with that decision. We must learn both to respect and to love the language we actually speak."

He was writing in 1991. I guess the atmosphere has changed a bit since then.

Cú Giobach

Interest in History wrote: »

I looked up that article of Cruise O'Brien's. One part has this:

"Since we have collectively - and silently - decided to go on speaking English. we must, for the sake of our psychological health, come to terms with that decision. We must learn both to respect and to love the language we actually speak."

He was writing in 1991. I guess the atmosphere has changed a bit since then.

How does the wish to revive Irish somehow imply a problem with English?

Interest in History

Cú Giobach wrote: »

How does the wish to revive Irish somehow imply a problem with English?

In the past it implied a heavy problem. That was when the drive behind the Revival was to achieve an actual language-shift in the population. Denigration of English was part of that.

But even contemporaneously: you would not hear a TD exhorting us to "love and cherish our beautiful native tongue" meaning that we should love and cherish English. But to-day the sting has gone out of it. To-day those speeches are dismissed as standard Dáil buffoonery, if they are noticed at all.

Cú Giobach

Interest in History wrote: »

In the past it implied a heavy problem. That was when the drive behind the Revival was to achieve an actual language-shift in the population. Denigration of English was part of that.

But even contemporaneously: you would not hear a TD exhorting us to "love and cherish our beautiful native tongue" meaning that we should love and cherish English. But to-day the sting has gone out of it. To-day those speeches are dismissed as standard Dáil buffoonery, if they are noticed at all.

Does the wish to revive Irish imply "revivalists" today have an issue with English?

Interest in History

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Does the wish to revive Irish imply "revivalists" today have an issue with English?

An issue? And attitude? It seems to vary a lot. I don't think that there's any general anti-ENGLISH language sentiment. But there is a good deal of ant-WORLD language sentiment when that sentiment is set in contrast to an image of a local language which acts as a shelter for a special local culture.

Cú Giobach

I didn't ask about people who express certain sentiments ie, an actual issue with World languages (which obviously includes English), but is a desire to revive Irish actually implying someone has an issue or problem with English (or even other languages)?

eddyc

Why have two national languages when the vast vast majority speak English? Does this in itself not imply that there is something wrong with using just English?

Cú Giobach

eddyc wrote: »

Why have two national languages when the vast vast majority speak English? Does this in itself not imply that there is something wrong with using just English?

Nope, no more than eating an apple implies a dislike of oranges.

An Coilean

eddyc wrote: »

Why have two national languages when the vast vast majority speak English? Does this in itself not imply that there is something wrong with using just English?

Given that the benefits of Bilingualism are quite clearly proven these days, I would have thought the answer to that question would be clear enough, it should be pointed out that speaking only English is not the problem, its the speaking of only one language, be it Irish, French or any other that is less than desirable.

eddyc

Speaking pragmatically would it not be better to teach kids another major European language rather than Irish? Being part of the EU this would seem like the best approach. Children in Germany are learning English from an extremely young age and a great many German people understand it if not speak it fluently. This hasn't worked for Irish. Probably in part because there are so few speakers and therefore less business and culture conducted through the language.
The vast majority of people in Ireland conduct their lives through English, why do we even need two national languages? I fully support cultural preservation but the waste involved in teaching every child, putting every document, road sign, bus stop (which in Dublin is frankly ridiculous) into Irish is crazy.

dubhthach

eddyc wrote: »

Speaking pragmatically would it not be better to teach kids another major European language rather than Irish? Being part of the EU this would seem like the best approach. Children in Germany are learning English from an extremely young age and a great many German people understand it if not speak it fluently. This hasn't worked for Irish. Probably in part because there are so few speakers and therefore less business and culture conducted through the language.
The vast majority of people in Ireland conduct their lives through English, why do we even need two national languages? I fully support cultural preservation but the waste involved in teaching every child, putting every document, road sign, bus stop (which in Dublin is frankly ridiculous) into Irish is crazy.

There's no reason why you can't have both Irish and a continental language thought in primary school.

If you go to Fryslân (Friesland) in the Netherlands they by default teach the following in primary school:

• Dutch
• Frisian
• English

Likewise children might learn German as well however in the Netherlands the teaching of English is generally replacing other European languages as the default foreign language learnt in primary school.

There are several private primary schools here in Dublin where a continental language is thought from 2nd class onwards. However one key difference is they use native speakers who sole task is to teach say Spanish or French. The same schools by the way have separate specialized teachers for Irish as well. (they don't teach any other subjects).

Here in Ireland our teachers are generally "Jack of all Trades" it's hardly a wonder there are issues teaching Irish when large numbers of teachers have are below-standard in it themselves. I don't see how in existing system you could bring in wide spread teaching of either German or French (let alone Spanish or Chinese) without importing 5-10,000 language teachers to make up for lack of local skills in foreign languages.

An Coilean

eddyc wrote: »

Speaking pragmatically would it not be better to teach kids another major European language rather than Irish? Being part of the EU this would seem like the best approach. Children in Germany are learning English from an extremely young age and a great many German people understand it if not speak it fluently. This hasn't worked for Irish. Probably in part because there are so few speakers and therefore less business and culture conducted through the language.
The vast majority of people in Ireland conduct their lives through English, why do we even need two national languages? I fully support cultural preservation but the waste involved in teaching every child, putting every document, road sign, bus stop (which in Dublin is frankly ridiculous) into Irish is crazy.

This has been gone over, the counter argument to suggesting that a language other than Irish should be taught is that the infastructure to teach such a language is not there, neither the political will is there nor the public demand, and teaching a plurality of other languages, while desirable, has much less potential to produce a bilingual population than Irish.

Interest in History

Cú Giobach wrote: »

I didn't ask about people who express certain sentiments ie, an actual issue with World languages (which obviously includes English), but is a desire to revive Irish actually implying someone has an issue or problem with English (or even other languages)?

Well I guess it means that they are not content just with having English as their mother tongue with an element of bi-lingualism (if they want that) coming from (say) French or Spanish which they have learned in school.
The Revivalist wants his/her element of bi-lingualism to come from Irish, which for the pupose Irish needs to be revived. I wouldn't call that a problem with English. They have that language anyway. But none of this represents a basic problem of any sort, I think.

The problem that exists, the one that gives rise to these debates, is in the political sphere. It arises when the choices of some individuals or groups are applied universally to the community through governmental action. In that sense it is a normal political question.

Q: What is government policy on 'X' - who is benefitting from it and who is not - who wants it and who doesn't want it - does it need adjusting, if so which way, stronger or weaker - does it need abolishing?

the Irish question is special of course in that in addition to being about language it is also about ideology. This complicates things! And makes them more interesting.

eddyc

It's sad because having a large percentage of our population conversant in another European language would probably help our economy. What we have instead is good money after bad being spent on a plan for Irish language preservation that is not working. This money could actually be used to bring in the necessary teachers for teaching other major languages, but this will never happen I suppose.

Cú Giobach

Interest in History wrote: »

Well I guess it means that they are not content just with having English as their mother tongue with an element of bi-lingualism (if they want that) coming from (say) French or Spanish which they have learned in school.

This is the point I am trying to get out of you.
Wanting to revive a language merely shows that, a desire to revive a language, it does not imply an issue, problem or dislike of another and neither does the desire for bilingualism.

In a general sense liking one thing does not mean the automatic dislike of another, especially if the stated desire is to actually have both.

Interest in History

Cú Giobach wrote: »

This is the point I am trying to get out of you.
Wanting to revive a language merely shows that, a desire to revive a language, it does not imply an issue, problem or dislike of another and neither does the desire for bilingualism.

In a general sense liking one thing does not mean the automatic dislike of another, especially if the stated desire is to actually have both.

Agreed of course. If I was slow to get your point it was because I never saw it as an issue.

On another point that is coming up - the assumed intellectual enrichment of all and sundry through learning a second language. I think that the generalisations about the value of bilingualism should be taken with a grain of salt. Or at least, be used far more selectively.

Kevin Williams makes the point that for this to be true (a) the student must achieve an advanced knowledge of the language in question; (b) the language must have a literature or body of learning which reflects and expresses the experiences of its user community; and (c) the life of the user community and their use of their language must occur in the context of a wide span of social activity and encompassing a full range of cutural experiences.

So: the question. Do you think that these conditions are fulfilled in (say) French for many Leaving Cert students.

Cú Giobach

Interest in History wrote: »

Agreed of course. If I was slow to get your point it was because I never saw it as an issue.

Brought up because of this quote you gave.
"Since we have collectively - and silently - decided to go on speaking English. we must, for the sake of our psychological health, come to terms with that decision. We must learn both to respect and to love the language we actually speak."

On another point that is coming up - the assumed intellectual enrichment of all and sundry through learning a second language. I think that the generalisations about the value of bilingualism should be taken with a grain of salt. Or at least, be used far more selectively.

Kevin Williams makes the point that for this to be true (a) the student must achieve an advanced knowledge of the language in question; (b) the language must have a literature or body of learning which reflects and expresses the experiences of its user community; and (c) the life of the user community and their use of their language must occur in the context of a wide span of social activity and encompassing a full range of cutural experiences.

So: the question. Do you think that these conditions are fulfilled in (say) French for many Leaving Cert students.

I left school decades ago, the only language I did was Irish (which I failed) and am not involved in teaching in any way, so I have no idea whatsoever about what is actually learned in the leaving cert today.
But no, to become fluent in French much more than the leaving cert is required, and immersion in French in Ireland is tricky.
So Kevin Williams basically says for bilingualism to be beneficial, the person must be bilingual, that hardly seems surprising.
On what authority do you think the stated values of bilingualism should be taken with a grain of salt??

DUB142

paullyons00 wrote: »

In my opinion, the only way we can possibly revive the Irish language to make it the first language of the people, business and pleasure, is as follows:

All citizens below the age of 30 and above the age of 17 have 5 years to reach an agreed level of fluency.

Each will be assessed through an oral and written exam at the end of those 5 years.

If the candidate does not pass on his/her first exam, they will be given a second chance to pass but at a higher pass mark.

Any candidate who fails the second exam should be stripped of their rights and citizenship and should face a hefty prison sentence.


This may seem autocratic or communist, but in my view its the only way we can revive the language or else it will die out in years to come.

I'd love to hear your opinions on my way of thinking and alternative views on how we should go about reviving the language.

Haha not sure Enda be up for this

Interest in History

Cú Giobach wrote: »

So Kevin Williams basically says for bilingualism to be beneficial, the person must be bilingual, that hardly seems surprising. On what authority do you think the stated values of bilingualism should be taken with a grain of salt??

Yep. To get the benefits of being bilingual you must be bilingual.

How many of the stdents emerging from any language class after the Laeving Cert has achieved that position in that language? Mighty few, I would say. Therefore the grain of salt should be to hand when you are told of the benefits of bilingualism to all the others.

Cú Giobach

Interest in History wrote: »

Yep. To get the benefits of being bilingual you must be bilingual.

How many of the stdents emerging from any language class after the Laeving Cert has achieved that position in that language? Mighty few, I would say. Therefore the grain of salt should be to hand when you are told of the benefits of bilingualism to all the others.

You are not making any sense.
What has people leaving school (or any other language classes for that matter) having not learned the language got to do with the positive aspects of bilingualism?

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Interest in History

Cú Giobach wrote: »

You are not making any sense.
What has people leaving school (or any other language classes for that matter) having not learned the language got to do with the positive aspects of bilingualism?

Actually, when Williams wrote on the subject he did not deal with bilingualism. He was addressing the conditions necessary to gain access to another culture through the study of that culture's language. I took up 'bilingualism' from your text, wrongly. I guess i couldn't resist responding to your quip.

So, if you want to access the culture of the families who send their children to Scoil Iosagáin you may do so by sitting in class with them and acquiring the same level of Irish that they have. If they are dealing through Irish with matters of philosophy, art, music, science and language on a high level and if your grasp of Irish is up to it, then your cultural experience with them can be on a high level. Ditto for vsiting their families in their homes.

As to your above point on the benefits of bilingualism. The positive aspects of bilingualism cannot be available to students who have not mastered the second language. And most of our students leave school without that necessary level of mastery. Hence the general value of bilingualism simply does not apply to them.

An Coilean

Interest in History wrote: »

As to your above point on the benefits of bilingualism. The positive aspects of bilingualism cannot be available to students who have not mastered the second language. And most of our students leave school without that necessary level of mastery. Hence the general value of bilingualism simply does not apply to them.

To those who contend that replacing Irish with another language in the Education system will be economically beneficial, this point is very relevant.

We will put Irish people out of a job, and hire in language teachers from another country, and the result will be students who still can not compeate with native speakers for the jobs that require that language.

The way Irish is taught in the education system dose not produce fluent Irish speakers, replacing Irish with another language will not produce people fluent in that language.

As far as your point on Bilingualism goes, it must be bourn in mind that while the full cognative benefits of Bilingualism are experienced when a child is raised with two languages, a child who later learns a second language also benefits, and that benefit is proportional to the proficiency they achieve in that second language, ie learn a little of a second language, benefit a little, learn a lot benefit more.

Interest in History

An Coilean wrote: »

To those who contend that replacing Irish with another language in the Education system will be economically beneficial, this point is very relevant. (Inserted: That to acquire the benefits of bilingualism you have to be bilingual, and very few of our students are this an any of the languages that they have been exposed to.) We will put Irish people out of a job, and hire in language teachers from another country, and the result will be students who still can not compeate with native speakers for the jobs that require that language. The way Irish is taught in the education system dose not produce fluent Irish speakers, replacing Irish with another language will not produce people fluent in that language.

As far as your point on Bilingualism goes, it must be bourn in mind that while the full cognative benefits of Bilingualism are experienced when a child is raised with two languages, a child who later learns a second language also benefits, and that benefit is proportional to the proficiency they achieve in that second language, ie learn a little of a second language, benefit a little, learn a lot benefit more.

(Excuse me for telescoping your paragraphs)

As to the points made in your first paragraph. AMEN TO ALL THAT!

As to your second paragraph: I have no idea from personal experience if you are right and if generalisations about an education system can be derived from what you say. I have only experienced one community, in Gibralter, which seemed to me to have many full bilinguals - in that case between Spanish and English. I don't know if they were more mentally developed as a result.

Cú Giobach

Interest in History wrote: »

Actually, when Williams wrote on the subject he did not deal with bilingualism. He was addressing the conditions necessary to gain access to another culture through the study of that culture's language. I took up 'bilingualism' from your text, wrongly. I guess i couldn't resist responding to your quip.

I already knew that, and was ready to ask you for the full quote if you tried to go any further on it. Point #1 made it very obvious.

As to your above point on the benefits of bilingualism. The positive aspects of bilingualism cannot be available to students who have not mastered the second language. And most of our students leave school without that necessary level of mastery. Hence the general value of bilingualism simply does not apply to them.

Which is why we are discussing having Ireland as a bilingual country by reviving Irish.
I have already stated a number of times that the educational system will not produce fluent speakers of any language, and I don't think anyone here has said it will. There is a lot more to it than just a leaving cert.

Interest in History wrote: »

As to your second paragraph: I have no idea from personal experience if you are right and if generalisations about an education system can be derived from what you say. I have only experienced one community, in Gibralter, which seemed to me to have many full bilinguals - in that case between Spanish and English. I don't know if they were more mentally developed as a result.

If you want to argue against the findings and opinions of scholars & experts on that subject, shouldn't you find some evidence to back yourself up?

Interest in History

Cú Giobach wrote: »

I already knew that, and was ready to ask you for the full quote if you tried to go any further on it. Point #1 made it very obvious.

Which is why we are discussing having Ireland as a bilingual country by reviving Irish.

If you want to argue against the findings and opinions of scholars & experts on that subject, shouldn't you find some evidence to back yourself up?

The Williams article is in Studies in Studies, Summer 1989. He has another relevant article which touches on compulsion in education titled "The Limits of Paternalism in Educational Relations" which is in the magazine Irish Educational Studies Vol 18, Spring 1999.

What can I say to your plan of reviving Irish and then having the Irish people to employ it on a bilingual basis with English? Do you expect to live to see the plan fulfilled?

I'm not arguing against the merits claimed by you for bilingualism. I've said repeatedly that I'm not qualified to do so. But I have said that since there are so few of them in Ireland I don't think that it is a live issue here. (Until such time as you plan works out, of course.)

Cú Giobach

Interest in History wrote: »

What can I say to your plan of reviving Irish and then having the Irish people to employ it on a bilingual basis with English? Do you expect to live to see the plan fulfilled?

My plan?? Have you only just realised the topic of this thread? and I have no idea how long I will live.

I'm not arguing against the merits claimed by you for bilingualism. I've said repeatedly that I'm not qualified to do so. But I have said that since there are so few of them in Ireland I don't think that it is a live issue here. (Until such time as you plan works out, of course.)

They are not my claims, they are the claims of scholars & experts on the subject.
Of course it isn't a "live issue" (for most) that is why we are having this discussion, if it was then this thread wouldn't be here.

MysticalRain

An Coilean wrote: »

This has been gone over, the counter argument to suggesting that a language other than Irish should be taught is that the infastructure to teach such a language is not there, neither the political will is there nor the public demand, and teaching a plurality of other languages, while desirable, has much less potential to produce a bilingual population than Irish.

I don't think there is much evidence to back any of that up: most people tend to agree that teaching language skills to young kids is a good thing by definition, and I highly doubt that there are less people qualified to teach continental languages than Irish. It's not like graduate teachers haven't already learned multiple foreign languages by the time they finish college.

Also, regarding jobs going to native speakers: in many cases that's true, but in a lot of cases it is actually not. It often comes down to a toss up between a person's technical skills vs their language skills. They may still be hired if they are stronger on tech than language skills (the reverse often happens over here where an Irish-based company many hire foreigners who have a poorer grasp of English than the native English speakers, but have better tech skills). Then there is the issue of Ireland being a small open economy, where it is a big advantage to be able to speak the native languages of countries we are doing business with. Sure, many people on the continent speak English, but nothing beats being able to do business in the lingua franca of a country.

The impression that I get from reading people's posts here is that they wish all these things were true for fear that the education system's focus may be taken away from learning Irish. I think teaching another language alongside Irish would compliment the subject and actually make it easier to learn.

opti0nal

An Coilean wrote: »

We will put Irish people out of a job,

Think outside of the box - those teachers are bilingual, thanks to their command of Irish, so they can easily up another language and maybe go on to teach English as a foreign language. Or they' could give private lessons in Irish to those who want learn Irish.

Irish children would benefit greatly from being taught by someone from another culture and this might lead them to be curious about the Irish spoken by their distant ancestors.

Cú Giobach

opti0nal wrote: »

Irish children would benefit greatly from being taught by someone from another culture and this might lead them to be curious about the Irish spoken by their distant ancestors.

So you feel Irish speakers are more connected to the history and culture of Ireland and seem to be implying people who don't speak Irish come from a totally "different culture".
It really is sad in this day and age to see people like you around who want to carry on with and even foster divisions that are not real, but created out of ignorance and bias.
The history and culture of Ireland belongs to all of us irrespective of which language we speak as individuals today, and people who think otherwise, be that Irish speakers who might think they are "more Irish", or people like you who feel just because your recent (yes recent, because Ireland was a totally bilingual country till quite recently) ancestors left the language behind hence making you different and cutting you off from those that went before, are just what this island with its history of division and the consequences of that division, do not need.
Even those from the British/Unionist/Protestant tradition have a shared history with us from the Gaelic/Irish tradition regarding the Irish language.
The culture and history of Ireland belongs to all of us on this island, and hopefully the division fostering dinosaurs will soon disappear like the sauropods of old back into the dust from whence they came.

eddyc

Irish culture is diverse, yet why is nobody free to not study Irish in school, surely if our culture is so varied there is room for non Irish speakers as well? Or those who would prefer their kids to spend their time learning a different language, so why is it the only compulsory subject at leaving cert and why do certain jobs, colleges etc. require it for study or employment?
It seems Irish supporters are given plenty of support but those who are not are artificially hindered in many respects.

Iwasfrozen

eddyc wrote: »

Irish culture is diverse, yet why is nobody free to not study Irish in school, surely if our culture is so varied there is room for non Irish speakers as well? Or those who would prefer their kids to spend their time learning a different language, so why is it the only compulsory subject at leaving cert and why do certain jobs, colleges etc. require it for study or employment?
It seems Irish supporters are given plenty of support but those who are not are artificially hindered in many respects.

No. Everyone must speak irish, play gaa and dance with comely maidens at the crossroads. If you don't you're not properly irish.

dubhthach

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No. Everyone must speak irish, play gaa and dance with comely maidens at the crossroads. If you don't you're not properly irish.

Think the Rubberbandits got you covered when it comes to dancing with comely maidens:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNFfDirBE6w

Iwasfrozen

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No. Everyone must speak irish, play gaa and dance with comely maidens at the crossroads. If you don't you're not properly irish.

What's a comely maiden?

Pidge96

If Irish was the main language taught in Primary, and other subjects taught through the medium of it (bar english), at least then people would be immersed and they'd be able to speak it grand :cool:

Iwasfrozen

Deleted User wrote: »

What's a comely maiden?

Good looking virgin girl.

Pidge96 wrote: »

If Irish was the main language taught in Primary, and other subjects taught through the medium of it (bar english), at least then people would be immersed and they'd be able to speak it grand :cool:

If i ever have kids i want them taught maths through english, the language of science thank you very much. I do not want their education used as a tool for the governments political aspirations.

dubhthach wrote:

Think the Rubberbandits got you covered when it comes to dancing with comely maidens:

haha finally. A true irish band. And not a crossroads in sight.

oldmangrub

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Good looking virgin girl.


If i ever have kids i want them taught maths through english, the language of science thank you very much. I do not want their education used as a tool for the governments political aspirations.


haha finally. A true irish band. And not a crossroads in sight.

Not disagreeing with your entitlement there but why would you consider anglicized latin superior to gaelicized latin? I have a relative who moved towns and went from a Gaelscoil to a community school and he didn't mention any difficulty comprehending.
Anyone know if the scientific vocabulary is that different?

neil_hosey

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

haha finally. A true irish band. And not a crossroads in sight.

opti0nal

Cú Giobach wrote: »

So you feel Irish speakers are more connected to the history and culture of Ireland and seem to be implying people who don't speak Irish come from a totally "different culture".
.

You've completely misunderstood what I said. I was referring to the advantages of Irish children learning foreign languages (i.e. neither Irish nor English) taught by teachers from a different culture (i.e. native speakers of those foreign languages). I then speculated that the experience of listening to people with a different native language to their own might lead those children to show a greater interest (than they do at present) in the language spoken by their ancestors.

You should ask yourself what was going on for you when you came out with such an off-beam reply.

It is indeed ironic that you deplore dinosaurs while championing the revival of a language that is close to extinct.

Cú Giobach

opti0nal wrote: »

You should ask yourself what was going on for you when you came out with such an off-beam reply.

Easy, I was replying to something you said, easy enough mistake to make in relation to your posting history.
Since we have been "chatting" for about 2 years now you would have to have a very short memory to wonder why.

It is indeed ironic that you deplore dinosaurs while championing the revival of a language that is close to extinct.

I don't deplore dinosaurs, I don't really know any dinosaurs they are quite rare around here, mammals rule.
I do deplore the kind of people I was referring to though.

opti0nal

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Easy, I was replying to something you said,

Ok, so you didn't reply to what I said, instead you replied to what you thought I said. Try to stay in the present.

Do you think that if Irish children learned a foreign language from a native speaker of that language, they might become more interested in Irish than they are at present?

Remember, as the children would be bi-lingual, they would be better equipped to learn Irish if they decided they wanted to.

Consider it at least. It might be the solution you're looking for, rather than the current approach which is simply not working.

Cú Giobach

opti0nal wrote: »

Ok, so you didn't reply to what I said, instead you replied to what you thought I said. Try to stay in the present.

Do you think that if Irish children learned a foreign language from a native speaker of that language, they might become more interested in Irish than they are at present?

Remember, as the children would be bi-lingual, they would be better equipped to learn Irish if they decided they wanted to.

Consider it at least. It might be the solution you're looking for, rather than the current approach which is simply not working.

What are you on about? I would love to see anybody learning any language and from a native speaker would be great and obviously preferable than from a non-native.
And you won't become fluent (and hence bilingual) in any language in secondary school here, not now, nor in the future (hopefully).

opti0nal

Cú Giobach wrote: »

And you won't become fluent (and hence bilingual) in any language in secondary school here, not now, nor in the future (hopefully).

Not even in Irish?

Cú Giobach

opti0nal wrote: »

Not even in Irish?

Since Irish is also a language I would hope so.

poeticseraphim

neil_hosey wrote: »

LOL

Interest in History

oldmangrub wrote: »

(as between Irish and English)

Anyone know if the scientific vocabulary is that different?

The language spoken by scientists in their work in our country is different. The language by scientists in their work anywhere in the world is different.

condra

Irish language as warnings on cigarette packs?
DUH!

Irish language plastered all over Google Maps?
ARGH!

The Irish language should die off gracefully, just like the biased, mostly bigoted, conservative, religious, nationalist, shower of backwards culchie goons that support it.

It is a massive waste of school kids time, when they should be learning about science and English.

I'm proud to be Irish, but I don't shove it down peoples throats.

dubhthach

condra wrote: »

The Irish language should die off gracefully, just like the biased, mostly bigoted, conservative, religious, nationalist, shower of backwards culchie goons that support it.

How ironic, the above sounds more apt for your own point of view. As for Google they are a private company they don't have to have maps in Irish, there's nothing forcing them to, they did it of their own choice funnily enough. Just same way as they provided Google Translate as well as Google search in Irish. Heck even facebook offer their interface in Irish.

Funnily I find the Irish warning on cigarette boxes considerably more apt:

Toradh caithimh tobac - bás == The fruit of smoking is death!

Beats: "Smoking kills" which is what the english warning says.

podgeandrodge

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Making the language visible is essential help revival, which a huge proportion of the population would like to see.

Other languages don't need to be made visible - because they are used.

A "huge proportion" would like to see it revived because everyone tends to say 'yes' when asked would they rather see it saved than let it disappear.

Ask them would they pay 1% extra income tax to save it. Then see what proportion of the population come to it's defence.

Come to think of it, we probably are paying 1% of our tax on it. Just that we weren't asked.

I would guess that most people would say "I would like the Irish language to remain in some form" but the majority probably would not go as far as saying they were happy for their licence fee to be used towards it or their taxes. They will want their taxes spent on more pressing issues. Irish language warnings on cigarette packs shows how ridiculous 'making the language visible' is becoming.

Come to think of it, we probably are paying 1% of our tax on it. Just that we weren't asked.

I would say that realistically, the amount spent on the language would keep the country running for only a couple of hours!