How to revive the Irish language.

Toirdhealbhach Tadhg O Caoindealbhain

EclipsiumRasa wrote: »

Wait, do you mean the number will go up or down, or the numbers as a percentage of the total population will go up or down

The number of second-language Irish speakers is going up, and will continue to go up because of the continuous growth of the gaelscoileanna. (stats here). I can't see that trend changing unless there's a sudden revolt against Irish-medium education!

EclipsiumRasa wrote: »

I do worry that it could just be a fashionable trend in parenting ("all the other mummies and daddies are doing it, so should I" is a horrible notion but all too human)..

If parents think sending their kids to Irish-speaking schools is fashionable, isn't that a good thing? At the end of the day, it means more Irish speakers, which in turn means more qualified teachers at the other end for new Gaelscoils!

Iwasfrozen

Toirdhealbhach Tadhg O Caoindealbhain wrote: »

Honestly, a chairde, move on. You're flogging a dead horse talking to this fella

If you disagree with my statement you're entitled to your opinion. Everything i said in that quote is true though. Tell me Toird, apart from nationalistic reasons why learn irish over any other more useful language?

Wacker The Attacker

Faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaack off gaeilgee

All this talk about whether Irish is worth saving ot not makes me wonder what if North America was first successfully colonised by the Dutch rather than the English, would we be debating whether the first language is Dutch or Irish!

English would have been considered "less useful" by emigrants to the US and only useful for trade with the UK.

Iwasfrozen

Deleted User wrote: »

All this talk about whether Irish is worth saving ot not makes me wonder what if North America was first successfully colonised by the Dutch rather than the English, would we be debating whether the first language is Dutch or Irish!

Unless the Dutch colonised us as well we wouldn't be having that discussion.

indioblack

Deleted User wrote: »

All this talk about whether Irish is worth saving ot not makes me wonder what if North America was first successfully colonised by the Dutch rather than the English, would we be debating whether the first language is Dutch or Irish!

English would have been considered "less useful" by emigrants to the US and only useful for trade with the UK.

Interesting point. English is a successful language - but how much is that attributable to history - imperialism, colonisation - and how much to the effectiveness and malleability of the language?
I wanted a reason to use the word malleable!

Toirdhealbhach Tadhg O Caoindealbhain

If I had to choose a majority language for the World, it certainly wouldn't be English. It's riddled with archaic spellings, lacks logical patterns and rules, which makes it notoriously difficult to learn for non-natives.

Spanish, on the other hand, can be picked up extremely quickly and it's spelling system is childsplay. It's a very logical language for learners.

Ultimately, Esperanto would be used, but it never seemed to take off.

Birroc

Toirdhealbhach Tadhg O Caoindealbhain wrote: »

Spanish, on the other hand, can be picked up extremely quickly and it's spelling system is childsplay. It's a very logical language for learners.

Ultimately, Esperanto would be used, but it never seemed to take off.

Fair enough, lets drop Irish and take up Spanish. Much cooler/sexier language (thinking spagetti westerns), relatively useful, handy for sun holidays. Irish on the other hand is relatively useless and lets be honest sounds fairly brutal in comparison (kinda suits our weather - wet and sickly).

I heard Italian is easyish to learn too.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Toirdhealbhach Tadhg O Caoindealbhain wrote: »

If I had to choose a majority language for the World, it certainly wouldn't be English. It's riddled with archaic spellings, lacks logical patterns and rules, which makes it notoriously difficult to learn for non-natives.

Spanish, on the other hand, can be picked up extremely quickly and it's spelling system is childsplay. It's a very logical language for learners.

Ultimately, Esperanto would be used, but it never seemed to take off.

Elvish? A beautiful language and a very peaceful and caring culture to boot...

Stained Class

Toirdhealbhach Tadhg O Caoindealbhain wrote: »

The number of second-language Irish speakers is going up, and will continue to go up because of the continuous growth of the gaelscoileanna. (stats here). I can't see that trend changing unless there's a sudden revolt against Irish-medium education!

I think the rise in the attendence of children in Gaelscoileanna might be in some way related to the number of immigrants coming into this country in the last 10-15 years.

'Mary, we'll send the child to the Gale-school, no Fordiners go there!'

Birroc

Stained Class wrote: »

I think the rise in the attendence of children in Gaelscoileanna might be in some way related to the number of immigrants coming into this country in the last 10-15 years.

'Mary, we'll send the child to the Gale-school, no Fordiners go there!'

I agree with you on this but you are going to get shot down for even suggesting it!

Stained Class

Birroc wrote: »

I agree with you on this but you are going to get shot down for even suggesting it!

No doubt about that. We're dealing with the Jihad here.:D

It's a trend at the moment, but trends, just like fashions can change very quickly...

LordSutch

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I don't believe I ever said any thing anti irish...

Neither did I, although Seanchai is convinced otherwise.

It might be a RA thing with him and me? I am anti them ergo I must be anti Irish? (guessing) I might also have upset him because I think that Irish should not be a mandatory subject right through to leaving cert. Who knows, he's a very complicated & volatile fella is our friend Seanchai )

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

LordSutch wrote: »

Neither did I, although Seanchai is convinced otherwise.

It might be a RA thing with him and me? I am anti them ergo I must be anti Irish? (guessing) I might also have upset him because I think that Irish should not be a mandatory subject right through to leaving cert. Who knows, he's a very complicated & volatile fella is our friend Seanchai )

There's Brits under the feckin floorboards in his world.

Toirdhealbhach Tadhg O Caoindealbhain

Great news, everyone! Another Gaelscoil has opened in Tír Eoghan.

"A growing awareness of Irish medium education in Northern Ireland, coupled with the school’s excellent teaching reputation are two factors said to have contributed to its growing numbers."

http://www.midulstermail.co.uk/lifestyle/first-gaelscoil-begins-new-term-1-4265806

Fair play to them. More of these please

dubhthach

Stained Class wrote: »

No doubt about that. We're dealing with the Jihad here.:D

It's a trend at the moment, but trends, just like fashions can change very quickly...

Let somehow while I was watching TG4 news you could clearly see plenty of students who were children of immigrants entering their new Gaelscoil building in Lucan (that replaced prefabs that were there for over 10 years!)

The biggest growth in Gaelscoil numbers were in the period 1972-1996 when their numbers grew by 8.63x from 11 schools in existence in 1972 to 95 in 1995/96. Did you ever consider that people who went to Gaelscoils themselves during this period might also want to send their children?

Of course the real issue is that elements in the Department of Education are hell bent at refusing the recognition of new Gaelscoileanna. No doubt due to the fact that they are (a) driven by parental demand (b) have considerably higher parental buyin/participation then your average school.

Mandarins don't like challenges to their perceived "natural order" after all.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Toirdhealbhach Tadhg O Caoindealbhain wrote: »

Great news, everyone! Another Gaelscoil has opened in Tír Eoghan.

"A growing awareness of Irish medium education in Northern Ireland, coupled with the school’s excellent teaching reputation are two factors said to have contributed to its growing numbers."

http://www.midulstermail.co.uk/lifestyle/first-gaelscoil-begins-new-term-1-4265806

Fair play to them. More of these please

Is it just me or is everyone else reading this in Professor Farnsworth's voice...?

LordSutch

Interesting post that^ which leads me to ask 'why' doesn't the department of education make all Primary schools Gaelscoils? and why are they refusing the recognition of new Gaelscoileanna? surely the department want a totally Irish speaking youth by 2016?

I didn't realise that Gaelscoils had being going so long, I thought they only appeared within the last ten years.

An Coilean

LordSutch wrote: »

Interesting post that^ which leads me to ask 'why' doesn't the department of education make all Primary schools Gaelscoils?

I didn't realise that Gaelscoils had being going so long, I thought they only appeared within the last ten years.

http://www.gaelscoileanna.ie/about/statistics/
Here is a link to the growth of Gaelscoilleanna over the last 40 years.

The growth of gaelscoilleanna has been nothing by comparrision to the Growth of Naíonraí (Irish language Pre-schools) over tha last few years.

In the last three years alone 65 have opened.

Toirdhealbhach Tadhg O Caoindealbhain

LordSutch wrote: »

Interesting post that^ which leads me to ask 'why' doesn't the department of education make all Primary schools Gaelscoils? and why are they refusing the recognition of new Gaelscoileanna? surely the department want a totally Irish speaking youth by 2016?

I didn't realise that Gaelscoils had being going so long, I thought they only appeared within the last ten years.

This is something the government should have focused on during the Free State. Had they focused their efforts on opening Irish-medium schools rather than teaching it so terribly in English schools, we may now have a majority of Irish-medium schools in this country, and a large bilingual population.

As it stands, there aren't enough fluent teachers nor the resources to make all schools Gaelscoils today.

Lord TSC

LordSutch wrote: »

Interesting post that^ which leads me to ask 'why' doesn't the department of education make all Primary schools Gaelscoils?

Given the standard of Irish among some primary school teachers, wouldn't they be unable to teach in the Gaelscoils, thus meaning such a move would mean they'd have to fire hundreds of teachers?

Of course the real issue is that elements in the Department of Education are hell bent at refusing the recognition of new Gaelscoileanna. No doubt due to the fact that they are (a) driven by parental demand (b) have considerably higher parental buyin/participation then your average school.

By recognizing them, wouldn't they likely then be asked to contribute to them? Or does the DoE already contribute to such schools?

Also, how much of the immigrants sending their kids to GSs, and indeed the growing number of kids attending them, can be put down to the fact class sizes in other "normal" schools are gone so massive, they can't take in students, leaving GSs as the only other option for them. What percentage of parents send their kids to GSs because they want them in an Irish-driven school compared to parents sending their kid to the nearest available school, or the only school willing to accept new students in the area?

This isn't me being smart or anything; just pointing out there's more questions needed before anyone uses the line "GSs are booming, ergo everyone wants to learn Irish". There's more reasons than that to why the GSs might be doing well....

Toirdhealbhach Tadhg O Caoindealbhain

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

This isn't me being smart or anything; just pointing out there's more questions needed before anyone uses the line "GSs are booming, ergo everyone wants to learn Irish". There's more reasons than that to why the GSs might be doing well....

I think it's gas that many here cannot except the fact that parents would send their children to Gaelscoils purely so that they can become fluent in Irish.

They are instead accused of being elitists, snobs or doing it just to rub other people's noses.

An Coilean

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

This isn't me being smart or anything; just pointing out there's more questions needed before anyone uses the line "GSs are booming, ergo everyone wants to learn Irish". There's more reasons than that to why the GSs might be doing well....

No doubt there are many factors involved, but the bottom line is that whether there is a deep burning desire to learn Irish or not, they are still learning Irish to a high level of fluency.

Toirdhealbhach Tadhg O Caoindealbhain

An Coilean wrote: »

No doubt there are many factors involved, but the bottom line is that whether there is a deep burning desire to learn Irish or not, they are still learning Irish to a high level of fluency.

Yeah, does it really matter why parents choose Gaelscoils? At the end of the day it means more fluent Irish speakers in this country. Woo hoo!

Lord TSC

Toirdhealbhach Tadhg O Caoindealbhain wrote: »

I think it's gas that many here cannot except the fact that parents would send their children to Gaelscoils purely so that they can become fluent in Irish.

They are instead accused of being elitists, snobs or doing it just to rub other people's noses.

I wasn't trying to label parents anything. I'm not saying there are not parents who want their kids to be fluent in Irish. Of course there are. I am saying that not 100% of the kids going to those schools are going because of that reason.

Parents, ultimately, have the right to choose what school they send their kids to and why. I do find it funny though that here is an example of Irish being optional to an extent and it working, but try and suggest the same options be offered further down the line, and you're shouted off the website.

Lord TSC

Toirdhealbhach Tadhg O Caoindealbhain wrote: »

Yeah, does it really matter why parents choose Gaelscoils?

Well...yeah, it does.

The topic of this title is "How to revive the Irish Language"? You don't think it's important to identify why parents are choosing GSs in the hope of building on that foundation and continue the "revival" of the language? I'd have thought figuring out why parents are choosing the schools would be core to working out how to revive the language!

An Coilean

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Well...yeah, it does.

The topic of this title is "How to revive the Irish Language"? You don't think it's important to identify why parents are choosing GSs in the hope of building on that foundation and continue the "revival" of the language? I'd have thought figuring out why parents are choosing the schools would be core to working out how to revive the language!

Not really, We already know, a large majority of people think Irish is actually an important part of who we are. This coupled with Gaelscoils being a very good form of education, time and again producing good results is a reciepy for success.

Lord TSC

Sums it up really though.

Here you've got a genuine example and proof of the demand existing, an example which shows there's grounds for a revival....and rather than investigate it, you just want to accept it's happening and move on from the matter?

If I was genuinely interested in reviving the language, I'd be doing everything I can, every survey, questionaire and research project I could, into figuring out why GSs have been so successful, hoping to find a way to replicate that success en masse.

An Coilean

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

If I was genuinely interested in reviving the language, I'd be doing everything I can, every survey, questionaire and research project I could, into figuring out why GSs have been so successful, hoping to find a way to replicate that success en masse.

What part of we already know why gaelscoils are successful don't you understand?

Stained Class

An Coilean wrote: »

What part of we already know why gaelscoils are successful don't you understand?

No children from other parts.

*circle the wagons*

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

An Coilean wrote: »

Not really, We already know, a large majority of people think Irish is actually an important part of who we are. This coupled with Gaelscoils being a very good form of education, time and again producing good results is a reciepy for success.

That's a bit like saying that a large portion of people are sendign their kids to Catholic schools because they want their kids to receive a catholic education.

Corealation does not imply causality.

opti0nal

An Coilean wrote: »

What part of we already know why gaelscoils are successful don't you understand?

Why then, is it necessary to make Irish compulsory in non-Gaelscoils?

oldmangrub

opti0nal wrote: »

Why then, is it necessary to make Irish compulsory in non-Gaelscoils?

I would agree with non-compulsory Irish after the Junior Cert. I don't see any good in removing it from the educational curriculum altogether. I personally wouldn't like your views passed on to the next generation. I also don't take the "teaching them makes them hate it" point of view. Really, parents, educators and adults shouldn't encourage kids to hate cultures or languages and shouldn't give these views any credence. Bias and bigotry should be challenged. I also don't accept it does anything but good for kids to learn a second language in primary school and I've already explained why I think that should be Irish.
How come you find compulsory Irish objectionable, but the failure to meet the demands of parents who want to send their kids to Gaelscoils not so?
I suspect the latter are a larger number. And surely spending every hour of your child's education through English when you would prefer it through Irish is a bigger issue than spending 40 minutes four or five times a week learning Irish when you would rather they didn't learn it at all?
I think the demand for Gaelscoils needs to be met and structures put in place for foreign language teaching before you start talking about removing Irish as a subject from schools. Really, if you cared about parents' rights and didn't have your own bias towards the language you would surely be just as vocal about Gaelscoils.
Wanting to set up ghettos for Irish-speakers, remove it from the education system and remove all funding for it is a bit extreme. In the world of this thread, I'm a fanatic and your views are perfectly reasonable. I suggest you start a campaign and state your views in public.

Lord TSC

I would agree with non-compulsory Irish after the Junior Cert. I don't see any good in removing it from the educational curriculum altogether.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I don't think anyone has suggested a complete removal of Irish from the curriculum....

Iwasfrozen

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I don't think anyone has suggested a complete removal of Irish from the curriculum....

Exactly, just the removal of compulsory status would be sufficient. Preferably optional from day one but after the junior cert would be an acceptable compromise. The mandarins in the TUI won't like it though.

An Coilean

opti0nal wrote: »

Why then, is it necessary to make Irish compulsory in non-Gaelscoils?

I suppose my argument is in two parts, firstly I believe that a language should be compulsory up until the leaving cert, and secondly, I think that language should be Irish.

I think learning a language should be compulsory because I believe that second language learning is a very important part of any education system. There is a substantial body of research that has consistantly shown an improvment in learning outcomes when a second language is learned. Overall I believe it is beneficial to the children learning it. Learning a Language even if not to fluency is beneficial. It has been shown to aid cognative development and literacy in other languages.

That language should be Irish in my opinion because the infastructure is there to teach it. We could change to another language, German for arguments sake, but I dont see why compulsory German would be any less objectionable than Compulsory Irish if it is true when you say you don't have a problem with Irish in its self.

Contrary to what some people seem to think, Switching to another Languge will not benefit the economy, or the students. They will not learn German to a higher standard then they are learning Irish now, and at that level of ability they simply have no prospect of compeating with Native speakers for jobs. To teach German to a level where it might be economacally useful to students when they finish, we would have to give far more time to the learning of it in schools, around twice as much time as is given to Irish currently, this would scew the education system seveerly to achieve something that will be of economic benefit to very few, while also impinging on other subject areas.
I don't believe the demand is there to replace Irish with another language, never mind devote enough resourses to the teaching of it to make it economicly useful to some students when they finish.

LordSutch

oldmangrub wrote: »

I would agree with non-compulsory Irish after the Junior Cert. I don't see any good in removing it from the educational curriculum altogether.

Agreed, and as a parent I am with you 100% on that, but realistically will the 'non-compulsory after Junior Cert' ever happen?

dubhthach

LordSutch wrote: »

Agreed, and as a parent I am with you 100% on that, but realistically will the 'non-compulsory after Junior Cert' ever happen?

Only likely if they scrap the entire current system of exams in second level. The leaving cert isn't really fit for purpose anyways, it's just a rote system whose results show who was best at regurgitating prepared answers on the day.

Personally I wouldn't have any compulsory subjects at "senior cycle", instead universities should have relevant compulsory subjects for matriculation. So for example you want to do biology well you need to have done Biology and preferably another science/maths subject -- writing reams of prose on Hamlet shouldn't be relevant etc.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

An Coilean wrote: »

I suppose my argument is in two parts, firstly I believe that a language should be compulsory up until the leaving cert, and secondly, I think that language should be Irish.

I think learning a language should be compulsory because I believe that second language learning is a very important part of any education system. There is a substantial body of research that has consistantly shown an improvment in learning outcomes when a second language is learned. Overall I believe it is beneficial to the children learning it. Learning a Language even if not to fluency is beneficial. It has been shown to aid cognative development and literacy in other languages.

That language should be Irish in my opinion because the infastructure is there to teach it. We could change to another language, German for arguments sake, but I dont see why compulsory German would be any less objectionable than Compulsory Irish if it is true when you say you don't have a problem with Irish in its self.

Contrary to what some people seem to think, Switching to another Languge will not benefit the economy, or the students. They will not learn German to a higher standard then they are learning Irish now, and at that level of ability they simply have no prospect of compeating with Native speakers for jobs. To teach German to a level where it might be economacally useful to students when they finish, we would have to give far more time to the learning of it in schools, around twice as much time as is given to Irish currently, this would scew the education system seveerly to achieve something that will be of economic benefit to very few, while also impinging on other subject areas.
I don't believe the demand is there to replace Irish with another language, never mind devote enough resourses to the teaching of it to make it economicly useful to some students when they finish.

Sounds like a cop-out - you want Irish to be compulsory all the way up to leaveing cert, but you don't have the balls to say it.

It also sounds like you take Irish simply because it's the easiest option available. Really? That's the only reasons you can come up with?

The mistake you're making is that the infrastructure IS there to each a second langauge other than Irish. Plenty of schools offer french or German. So, that said: if a school has French and Irish available to all students, why should ALL students be automaticaly forced to pick the same language?

I would go so far as to say that, if a school can not offer a second language other that Irish, then a secodn language should not be compulsory.

opti0nal

oldmangrub wrote: »

I personally wouldn't like your views passed on to the next generation.

You mean that you would not want the next generation to share my view that children should not be forced to speak a language they don't want to speak?

Iwasfrozen

opti0nal wrote: »

You mean that you would not want the next generation to share my view that children should not be forced to speak a language they don't want to speak?

Nein, zey must speak ze language!

Tucker688

Just let the language fizzle away, we dont need in any aspect whatsoever, business or pleaseure

dd972

I've heard about youngsters going to Gaeltaecht areas and being dismissed either humorously or sometimes not so humorously for speaking ''book Irish'' by the locals.This is similar to the sort of parochialism dished out to non Dubs, Dubs, Irish people born else where, the list goes on

The notion of someone being a ''native'' Irish speaker is a bit of a myth tbh, nobody is born a native speaker of any language, we all had to learn whatever tongue we speak with, a child born in the Gaeltaecht then taken to Shanghai by two Chinese people would grow up with Chinese as their ''native'' tongue.

osarusan

dd972 wrote: »

The notion of someone being a ''native'' Irish speaker is a bit of a myth tbh, nobody is born a native speaker of any language, we all had to learn whatever tongue we speak with, a child born in the Gaeltaecht then taken to Shanghai by two Chinese people would grow up with Chinese as their ''native'' tongue.

Native language = first language, as in the first language acquired by a child, or the language they were most exposed to during the critical period of language learning.

There is no recognised link between 'native' and 'nation' anymore.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Should be renamed "how to revive the Irish langauge thread"...

Iwasfrozen

Why was this even bumped?

Iwasfrozen

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why was this even bumped?

Because someone wanted to bump it, that's why.
No real reason, but gives everyone a chance to repeat their already stated positions!

Interest in History

Pidge96 wrote: »

If Irish was the main language taught in Primary, and other subjects taught through the medium of it (bar english), at least then people would be immersed and they'd be able to speak it grand :cool:

Actually, events are moving in the other direction. Primary school time devoted to English literacy has increased from 50 minutes a day to 90 minutes and Ruairi Quinn has emphasised the need to give more time to Maths and Science, saying that too much time is spent on Irish and Religion. In time, he aims to provide science equipment in the schools as was provided under the British.

He has also said that he will eliminate the special allowance to teachers who teach through Irish, the grants to trainee teachers to holiday in the Gaeltacht, and this year he eliminated the extra teacher numbers for Gaeilscoileanna.

Wibbs

Interest in History wrote: »

Actually, events are moving in the other direction. Primary school time devoted to English literacy has increased from 50 minutes a day to 90 minutes

Good call, especially when you see the stats that show one in four of our young men are leaving the education system barely literate in any language.

Interest in History

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Should be renamed "how to revive the Irish langauge thread"...

Nice!

It has been fascinating to watch the Revival of Irish gradually, very gradually, weaken as a national political ideology. Even the politicians in the Dáil seem to find it less useful as a patriotic feather to stick in their caps. Or it may just be that so many people came out of school with virtually no Irish that the enterpprise simply faded away.

Nobody seems to have attacked Ruairi Quinn for his campaign to reduce illiteracy, in English that is. In the past Fianna Fáil would have opposed what he is doing.