How to revive the Irish language.

Doc Ruby

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That's it I'm out. Good night folks.

Walk on home, I'll be here. I mean for gods sake, you all but painted your politics on the wall. Gah.

An Coilean

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No I wouldn't. I would rather the government stayed out of the issue totally.

What would you call forcing Irish speakers to speak English then?

nocoverart

I'm a thousand and something posts behind here, and I'm sure as hell not reading through the lot! so I'm guessing this kind of thing has been said before, but why revive a language that has no global advantage? if anything it just holds us back. The only positive I can see from progressing the Irish language is protecting our identity... well, we need to grow the fook up! and instead of learning Irish, put the extra hours of our children's education into subjects that matter. Ya know? the ones that benefit our future generations. I just don't see the benefit of keeping a language that is only barely spoken in one country alive.

Insect Overlord

nocoverart wrote: »

I'm a thousand and something posts behind here, and I'm sure as hell not reading through the lot! so I'm guessing this kind of thing has been said before, but why revive a language that has no global advantage? if anything it just holds us back. The only positive I can see from progressing the Irish language is protecting our identity... well, we need to grow the fook up! and instead of learning Irish, put the extra hours of our children's education into subjects that matter. Ya know? the ones that benefit our future generations. I just don't see the benefit of keeping a language that is only barely spoken in one country alive.

Some of the poetry, prose and story-telling in Irish (no, not Peig or An t-Oileánach!) are just stunning. I include the classical material and modern publications in that, and much more besides in between. Translations don't really do them justice.

Maybe not the major, global factor you were looking for, but one worth keeping in mind all the same.

An Coilean

nocoverart wrote: »

I'm a thousand and something posts behind here, and I'm sure as hell not reading through the lot! so I'm guessing this kind of thing has been said before, but why revive a language that has no global or economic advantage? if anything it just holds us back. The only positive I can see from progressing the Irish language is protecting our identity... well, we need to grow the fook up! and instead of learning Irish, put the extra hours of our children's education into subjects that matter. Ya know? the ones that benefit our future generations. I just don't see the benefit of keeping a language that is only barely spoken in one country alive.

Perhaps you should ask the Finns or people from other successful countries that have their own language that is not spoken Globally why they don't grow the fook up.

Then you might have a look at this book and question if Irish is really a barrier to economic progression.

http://www.fulbright.ie/news/125-nui-galway-lecturer-says-irish-language-plays-central-role-in-socio-ecomonic-development

nocoverart

An Coilean wrote: »

Perhaps you should ask the Finns or people from other successful countries that have their own language that is not spoken Globally why they don't grow the fook up.

Then you might have a look at this book and question if Irish is really a barrier to economic progression.

http://www.fulbright.ie/news/125-nui-galway-lecturer-says-irish-language-plays-central-role-in-socio-ecomonic-development

I already edited the economic bit. But why does a language that is already dead and buried mean so much to you? I presume it's because you're way too patriotic to tell your arse from your elbow.

Insect Overlord

nocoverart wrote: »

I already edited the economic bit. But why does a language that is already dead and buried mean so much to you? I presume it's because you're way too patriotic to tell your arse from your elbow.

LOL. The Gaelic Godwin. Well played... *slow claps*

Killer Wench

I did not read the last 98 pages but I wonder how well the Rosetta Stone: Irish does in teaching people the language.

http://www.rosettastone.com/learn-irish

An Coilean

nocoverart wrote: »

I already edited the economic bit. But why does a language that is already dead and buried mean so much to you? I presume it's because you're way too patriotic to tell your arse from your elbow.

You do realize that you are demonstrably wrong about Irish being dead right?
Ach b'fhéidir go bhfuil tú ró-dall chun an difríocht idir bás agus fás a aithint?

nocoverart

An Coilean wrote: »

You do realize that you are demonstrably wrong about Irish being dead right?
Ach b'fhéidir go bhfuil tú ró-dall chun an difríocht idir bás agus fás a aithint?

It's dead, it's buried! hence the title of the thread. I'm off to my LEABA. Merry Xmas XXX

Davidius

nocoverart wrote: »

It's dead, it's buried! hence the title of the thread. I'm off to my LEABA. Merry Xmas XXX

'Revive' doesn't necessarily denote the reversal of death. To describe it as "dead" is a stretch, and "buried" is just plain false.

Doc Ruby wrote: »

On that note, and at the risk of introducing constructiveness to the bitter, I think cartoons and television are the way forward here. Look at how many people go mad for Japanese anime and immerse themselves in Japanese culture purely as a result. Our mythological cycle is fascinating and spectacular, much more so than many other cultures in my opinion, and releasing animated interpretations of these as Gaeilge or in mixed tongues could be a big step forward both at home and abroad.

I agree, and I think it's something we're sorely missing. We have a rich cultural history which seems largely untapped and the Irish language is a good tool for expressing it. I think it could do a lot for the language's popular image, more so than the tendency of creating Irish derivatives of English works.

And on that note I feel that tendency could hurt the language. I can see the use for it as a bit of craic but I also feel it can be a little degrading for the language if there's too much of it relative to the amount of original material. It paints the language as more hobby-based rather than an extant means of expression. I think it's possible to create something in the language with mass appeal without resorting to laying Irish lexicon over English language works.

Interest in History

bluecode wrote: »

It's embarrassing that most of us cannot speak our native language.

Surely in all this debate there is only one point of dispute - whether Irish should be imposed by the state on those who don't want it?

If the value of Irish is seen as a matter of culture then, of course, those who enjoy it culturally will have no interest in imposing it on others who don't share their feelings.

If it's revival is seen as a state imperative then it has to be universally imposed - by the state. That has been tried, for ninety years. It was a bad idea in principle and has proven impossible in practice.

Solution: drop Compulsory Irish in the Leaving Cert and the kids and their parents will sort the matter out for themselves in the course of three or four years.

opti0nal

bluecode wrote: »

Essentially all that's needed is for ALL schools to be Irish speaking from the start. No exceptions.

You want to force people to speak Irish? That's a desperate idea. It means you acknowledge that people won't do it voluntarily. It also demonstrates a contempt for your fellow citizens and their human rights.

bluecode wrote: »

It's embarrassing that most of us cannot speak our native language.

Nonsense, English is our native language and we speak it very well.

People who want to change our common language from English to Irish are the ones who are ashamed of our culture.

What next? Prosecuting people who don't reply to random Irish language questions in the street?

Interest in History

opti0nal wrote: »

You want to force people to speak Irish?

Long ago, Kevin Williams had an article (in Studies - Summer 1989) about Irish on the curriculum, including the question of Compulsory Irish in the Leaving Cert. In the article he pointed to the fundamental fact that there is a limit to what anyone can be made to do against his or her will even by the use of force or the threat of penalties.

Of course, people pretend to go along with those in power, if that is needed for getting what they need. In this case, points in the exam. And when the power goes, the Irish goes.

Williams points out that the undifferentiated compelling of students to learn something is a manipulative relationship which is at odds with the spirit of engagement of young people with a language as an end in itself and as something valuable on its own account.

The strange thing is: everybody knows all this.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Doc Ruby wrote: »

English is what we speak. Irish is who we are. But hey if you're happy enough to miss out on the massive financial opportunities offered by the culture, that's your call. Michael Flatley says "lol".

Very true. You seem to take the point what what one is and what one sepaks are two seperate entities, however...

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Interesting. So an Irish dancing show featuring nothing but Irish dancing was successful not because it was Irish.

Why do you hate Ireland?

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Your hatred for the people of Ireland is plain for all to see.

... you seem to have gone back on yourself here, assuming to hate the language (Irish) is the same as hating one`s self and country (Ireland)...??

Either we can be Irish without speaking Irish and like one but not the other, or the whole thing is tied together: hate the langauge, hate the country.

Which is it?

bluecode wrote: »

We could have virtually everyone speaking Irish in less than a generation. Right now there a few Irish speaking schools. My son started in one last year. He's five and it's remarkable to hear him having a conversation with his Mother in Irish. Not me, when I try he just corrects my pronunciaton.

Essentially all that's needed is for ALL schools to be Irish speaking from the start. No exceptions.

There are several superb Irish speaking schools. Simply using the techniques they use and this debate would be over or at least it would be continued in Irish.

It'll never happen of course. We Irish seemed ashamed of our language and certainly the way it was taught made sure most people hated it.

It's embarrassing that most of us cannot speak our native language.

You COULD have. However, an entire genration does not WANT to. So you`d either have to force it on people or accept that, while it`s possible, it would be a massive infringement on other people`s freedoms. It`s not shame, it`s not embarrassment, it`s just disinterest and a difference in priorities which again, people are free to do.

Interest in History

An Coilean wrote: »

We know you don't want the Government to promote Irish, you would prefer the government to suppress it.

The elephant in the room is that ninety years of promotion of Irish by the state has been a botch.

Wibbs

An Coilean wrote: »

Perhaps you should ask the Finns or people from other successful countries that have their own language that is not spoken Globally why they don't grow the fook up.

Why is this meme constantly trotted out? And as an aside why is the meme always concentrated on the Scandinavian nations? Proves it's a meme I suppose. Anther one is "whataboutIsraelandHebrew". Anyway the obvious difference is that all Finns[insert other Scandinavians here] speak Finnish[insert other Scandinavian languages here]. The majority of Irish people do not speak Irish. Whatever about the promotion of the language, there is a difference between the examples.

Then you might have a look at this book and question if Irish is really a barrier to economic progression.

http://www.fulbright.ie/news/125-nui-galway-lecturer-says-irish-language-plays-central-role-in-socio-ecomonic-development

Written by a lecturer in Irish, so no possible slant/turkeys won't vote for Xmas going on?

EDIT I'd add the other very common meme "Irish is a dead language". Eh no. It's not.

gobnaitolunacy

An Coilean wrote: »

We know you don't want the Government to promote Irish, you would prefer the government to suppress it.

That might actually revive it. Irish people being awkward in the face of officialdom as per usual:D

Interest in History

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

......You COULD have. However, an entire genration does not WANT to. So you`d either have to force it on people or accept that, while it`s possible, it would be a massive infringement on other people`s freedoms...

Two points in response:

(1) No! The political elite for fifty years after 1922 tried with everything they had to force Irish on the population. And they failed. Compared to then, to-day's Revival is just throwing shapes. Now more people are paid to speak Irish than are forced to speak it.

(2) The elite did not care about the infringement of other people's freedoms in the context of their plan.

9959

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

That might actually revive it. Irish people being awkward in the face of officialdom as per usual:D

Off topic I know, but if only the above were true, just look at how we faced down officialdom regarding austerity and bank bailouts.
We Irish are awkward alright, awkward when it comes to being assertive.
Sorry for the mini-rant.

Back on topic.
There's as much chance of a genuine Irish language revival as there is of a Bay City Rollers revival.

"Chimmy-Cherry-Some, we used to make up songs, agus Remember
Sha-La-La-La-Loo, I used to sing to you, Remember an bhuil cead agam"

......or something.

Peregrine

Wibbs wrote: »

EDIT I'd add the other very common meme "Irish is a dead language". Eh no. It's not.

No it's not a dead language at the moment but it's a dying language and you can thank years of neglect by governments for that.


Department of Education and Skills: Proudly shoving Irish down your throat for 14 years whether you like it or not and calling it revival for almost 100 years

You know you've got a problem with the system when students in normal schools who no little or no Irish at all have to sit the same exam as students in Gaelcholáistes who has been speaking Irish and English for majority of their lives.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Interest in History wrote: »

Two points in response:

(1) No! The political elite for fifty years after 1922 tried with everything they had to force Irish on the population. And they failed. Compared to then, to-day's Revival is just throwing shapes. Now more people are paid to speak Irish than are forced to speak it.

(2) The elite did not care about the infringement of other people's freedoms in the context of their plan.

Yeah, I know, but my point was that the poster I was replying to was completly ignoring the will of the people. Governments, while keeping Irish mandatory, never forced it on free adults.

golden lane

a language is the easiest thing in the world to learn.....yes, by young children......

when they learn a language it is just copying what their parents an people around them say......

they can learn two languages as easy as one.....and for young children, it can even be fun....

they do not have to learn the whole language......just enough to learn the different sounds and emphasis.....

so, you just have to get the parents to introduce words into everyday conversation from birth.....they can learn that two different woeds mean the same thing.....

when the go to kindergarden etc....then the can learn more from fluent teachers....

they will the go home and introduce those words to their parents....

so, rather that trying to teach an english speaking generation a whole language.....they just need to learn a few words.....and use them frequently, and lovingly......

the learning process that then takes place between parents and children will bring about a love of the language.....

opti0nal

golden lane wrote: »

a language is the easiest thing in the world to learn.....yes, by young children......so, you just have to get the parents to introduce words into everyday conversation from birth.....they can learn that two different woeds mean the same thing.....

Should parents be compelled by law to teach their children Irish?

golden lane

opti0nal wrote: »

Should parents be compelled by law to teach their children Irish?

no, and neither should children.....

a young child has a longing and a love for words....parents have also a love for childrens love of words.....

young children will not know it is two languages (and have no reason to reject one in favour of the other).....

binging it into a childs life later.......defines the choice they make.....

the object it to make the whole of the country bi-lingual....not to replace one with the other...

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

golden lane wrote: »

binging it into a childs life later.......defines the choice they make.....

the object it to make the whole of the country bi-lingual....not to replace one with the other...

Have to disagree here - it`s not the time it`s brought into the child´s life, it`s the fashion in which it´s brought into a child´s life.

The country will never be blungual, there simply is not the will. It´s not really practical either.

dd972

I've always respected the way the Welsh have kept their language living and functional in a way we haven't, there must be some cultural or social reasons for that.

golden lane

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Have to disagree here - it`s not the time it`s brought into the child´s life, it`s the fashion in which it´s brought into a child´s life.

The country will never be blungual, there simply is not the will. It´s not really practical either.

i believe there will be the will......not by forcing, but by wanting.....

out there i believe is a majority of parents who would be so proud to hear their children speak both languages......

An Coilean

dd972 wrote: »

I've always respected the way the Welsh have kept their language living and functional in a way we haven't, there must be some cultural or social reasons for that.

Hundreds of Welsh Language Activists willing to go to jail to secure their rights.

opti0nal

golden lane wrote: »

i believe there will be the will......not by forcing, but by wanting.....out there i believe is a majority of parents who would be so proud to hear their children speak both languages......

You can believe whatever fantasy you want, but the reality is that the majority of parents are quite content to hear their children speak English and this language serves them well.

Unfortunately, people with fantasies about the Main Aim and 'bilingualism' (but only if one language is Irish) have access to our money and our children.

BrokenArrows

You can't revive a language that doesn't serve a purpose.

Wibbs

An Coilean wrote: »

Hundreds of Welsh Language Activists willing to go to jail to secure their rights.

Yea and more grass roots support among the Welsh in general. Support that is lacking with the Irish in general. Beyond lip service anyway. As I've noted before this general lack of support/interest also shows in the diaspora that left the country from the 18th through 19th centuries. A goodly proportion of them, if not the majority would have come from Irish speaking areas, yet within a generation at most two the usage of the language pointedly declines. Certainly when compared to other cultures diasporas(one notable is or was Newfoundland Irish which did persist). The Irish are the second largest diaspora in the US, yet the language comes in around 75th in usage today. That rapid dropping of the cupla focal is repeated in all the other places we went and is mirrored even in Ireland since independence even with all the state support.

That said I have no doubts it will survive and thrive as a minority language of our country. Something many on both sides of the argument seem to worry about. The naysayers have already held the funeral service and the Gaelgoirs often suggest it's extinction if state support is withdrawn, even reduced. I don't.

Wibbs

BrokenArrows wrote: »

You can't revive a language that doesn't serve a purpose.

Of course it serves a purpose. Ask any native speaker, or those attempting to learn it. However the question I ask is does it serve a wider purpose for those who aren't speakers of the language?

golden lane

opti0nal wrote: »

You can believe whatever fantasy you want, but the reality is that the majority of parents are quite content to hear their children speak English and this language serves them well.

Unfortunately, people with fantasies about the Main Aim and 'bilingualism' (but only if one language is Irish) have access to our money and our children.

yes, as you can also.......i have desire or wish for the irish people to speak irish......it is their choice to do as they wish......

i am suggesting a way it can be done.....and i believe there are enough irish people who would wish to do it.....i have spent 56 years living outside ireland and have no plans to return.....

i have not mentioned money.....because it shoud not enter into the matter...

Interest in History

golden lane wrote: »

....a language is the easiest thing in the world to learn.....yes, by young children......when they learn a language it is just copying what their parents an people around them say...they can learn two languages as easy as one.....and for young children, it can even be fun....they will the go home and introduce those words to their parents.........

There is a basic problem here. All the people involved are native born English speakers. They don't know Irish beyond baby-talk themselves. So apart from the fact that the exercise described is not needed for a happy or a useful life and apart from the fact that there is no motivation for it - IT IS NOT POSSIBLE!

conor.hogan.2

Does anyone know of a language that has been called "dead" more times than Irish?
Or a language which has then been called "dying" when people are corrected on it not being dead?

Surely it is one of the longest living "dying"/"dead" languages.

golden lane

Interest in History wrote: »

There is a basic problem here. All the people involved are native born English speakers. They don't know Irish beyond baby-talk themselves. So apart from the fact that the exercise described is not needed for a happy or a useful life and apart from the fact that there is no motivation for it - IT IS NOT POSSIBLE!

it is a language.......not an engineering degree.....

all children learn a language, it is a doddle for them to do it.....to learn two, is not rocket science to them....it comes natural .......

Interest in History

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Governments, while keeping Irish mandatory, never forced it on free adults.

In the bad old days they did force it on (otherwise) free adults. For example, anybody going for state employment of any type. Or if they were young adults needing a Leaving Certificate.

But I admit that apart from that the main weight was (and is) laid on the schoolchildren. And some of that is being lifted by Ruairi Quinn.

Interest in History

golden lane wrote: »

it is a language.......not an engineering degree.....all children learn a language, it is a doddle for them to do it.....to learn two, is not rocket science to them....it comes natural .......

But they have to learn a language from from somebody who knows it. The Irish are all native born English speakers. It is the babies' mother tongue. It can't be otherwise because the mothers speak English and don't speak Irish.

golden lane

Interest in History wrote: »

But they have to learn a language from from somebody who knows it. The Irish are all native born English speakers. It is the babies' mother tongue. It can't be otherwise because the mothers speak English and don't speak Irish.

after 50 odd years of exile....i still remember many words of irish.....

i explained it would be a little knowledge on the parents side.....getting the ball rolling so to speak....then it would be a tit for tat endevour.....

children are not born with a hatred for language....they have the built in means to learn it...and a great love for it....

opti0nal

golden lane wrote: »

i explained it would be a little knowledge on the parents side.....getting the ball rolling so to speak....

You have not explained how the majority population of this country who don't want to speak Irish would decide to do what you wish.

There is a reason why we don't all speak Irish: We don't want to.

Interest in History

golden lane wrote: »

after 50 odd years of exile....i still remember many words of irish.....i explained it would be a little knowledge on the parents side.....getting the ball rolling so to speak....then it would be a tit for tat endevour.....children are not born with a hatred for language....they have the built in means to learn it...and a great love for it....

People here who are enthusiastic about the Revival of Irish sometimes blame the government for its failure. But over the course of the ninety years since 1922 tremendous efforts were made by various governments, and at great cost too.

Adrian Kelly has a book called "Compulsory Irish, language and Education in Ireland 1870s-1970s," which tells the history of those efforts.

Also there is "The Revival of Irish - Failed project of a Political Elite" by Donal Flynn. This is available on Kindle.

And there is a website with some other documents: <sites/google.com/site/failedrevival>

And putting the Revival in a broad context - Tom Garvin's "Preventing the Future".

mackerski

golden lane wrote: »

it comes natural .......

Doesn't to you, apparently

golden lane

mackerski wrote: »

Doesn't to you, apparently

it was not taught to me as i descibe a method for teaching it....if it was i may have learned how to speak it fluently....

i spent a lot of my childhood in the uk.....and all of my life since i was 15....

i had no reason to be interested in learning the irish language..i knew i was off as soon as i was old enough.....yes, never to return except for a couple of funerals....
so can you add any positive or otherwise comments to my post's or are you too busy concentrating on me.....

mackerski

golden lane wrote: »

it was not taught to me

It's your English I quoted. My point being that many people struggle to perfect one language, let alone two.

Bilingualism is a great thing and I'm all for it, but each of the languages has to come from somewhere. Parents who cannot speak Irish cannot teach it to children, which is why nature takes its course and most of us are native English speakers. This is just a thing that happens with languages. We don't pine for whatever language the fir bolg spoke, likewise there's no reason to agonise over Irish as the native language we never had. That's just glass half empty thinking.

Peregrine

Interest in History wrote: »

People here who are enthusiastic about the Revival of Irish sometimes blame the government for its failure. But over the course of the ninety years since 1922 tremendous efforts were made by various governments, and at great cost too.

Well it didn't work now did it..

None of them included trying to teach Irish to kids like a foreign language cos if it did kids now wouldn't know more French/Spanish/German than Irish. The Irish Leaving Cert syllabus expects that you're a fluent Irish speaker and has questions like character development, themes, emotions etc. in poems and stories, essays on politics, these are questions that people struggle with in English exams. Even things like the health system which students don't even know in English let alone Irish!

And the teachers' response to this?
Learn it all off

Is this the efforts they made? Cos they're blind sided about the students' response

conor.hogan.2

mackerski wrote: »

Bilingualism is a great thing and I'm all for it, but each of the languages has to come from somewhere.

That's just glass half empty thinking.

Yep, it is great. Also we don't cry over spilled milk, we just refill the glass and get on with it. If you don't then, you don't have to acknowledge it unless you are in school.

Iwasfrozen

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Does anyone know of a language that has been called "dead" more times than Irish?
Or a language which has then been called "dying" when people are corrected on it not being dead?

Surely it is one of the longest living "dying"/"dead" languages.

I prefer "Brain Dead" language. As in it would be dead if government life support was pulled.

opti0nal

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I prefer "Brain Dead" language. As in it would be dead if government life support was pulled.

I don't agree.

Irish is alive but living inside a web of deceit and lies.

Reducing government support to a level appropriate to an important cultural relic, and more importantly, freeing children from the abusive obligation to learn and speak Irish would allow the Irish language and its supporters to operate in an environment of honesty and truthfulness.

Iwasfrozen

opti0nal wrote: »

I don't agree.

Irish is alive but living inside a web of deceit and lies.

Reducing government support to a level appropriate to an important cultural relic, and more importantly, freeing children from the abusive obligation to learn and speak Irish would allow the Irish language and its supporters to operate in an environment of honesty and truthfulness.

Do you think so? I could buy into that. Honestly I don't care if it dies or becomes the majority language again as long as the government doesn't spend public money promoting it.