How to revive the Irish language.

opti0nal

Ficheall wrote: »

Is it your opinion that a regime which does not despise [sic.] the needs of its students, is one which minimises the actual effort they need put into learning?

Education should equip students with the language, numeracy and cultural knowledge they need to make their way in modern Irish society.

Interest in History

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

If what is best wins through then people will continue to support the language. At the moment what we have is a minority (supposedly) who do not wish to support it who are forced to do so by the state. This is not an efficient system.

Could I make a point which is not internal to this discussion but concerning the existence of the Revival itself.

Why, in the first place, do our elected officials have a programme for changing the population's language at all? Why, for ninety years, have the state's managers poured resources into such a project? Why do they persist in spite of its obvious futility. Why have the officials frittered away our resources chasing this will-o-the-wisp instead of managing the country with sensible practical measures?

And even now that our independence has been lost, the officials are still going on about it.

Curly Judge

Interest in History wrote: »

Could I make a point which is not internal to this discussion but concerning the existence of the Revival itself.

Why, in the first place, do our elected officials have a programme for changing the population's language at all? Why, for ninety years, have the state's managers poured resources into such a project? Why do they persist in spite of its obvious futility. Why have the officials frittered away our resources chasing this will-o-the-wisp instead of managing the country with sensible practical measures?

And even now that our independence has been lost, the officials are still going on about it.

Because it's a nice little earner for a bunch of second rate teachers and civil servants.
The whole department of the Gaeltacht should be shut down.
They're just one big, useless, glorified quango!

Lord TSC

Ficheall wrote: »

So in an ideal world, students would only study the subjects they enjoyed, oui? Irish would quite possibly be the first to go, I reckon. Then Maths, maybe. Then French or Business Studies? I've always been of the opinion that History was a bit of a waste of time. I used to love reading ghost stories at Hallowe'en and daubing paint on classroom windows at Christmas. Could we have more of that instead, when we've gotten rid of the boring subjects?

In an ideal world, students (and their parents) would have the choice to pick which subjects they thought would be of the greatest use to them in the long term. Not what subjects they want but what subjects they need.

As such, people who would have no use of science would not go near it. Someone who had no intentions of pursuing a Maths based career would not waste their time on equations. People who thought English was a waste of time would be allowed dedicate their time to something they felt was more worthwhile. And people who saw no place for Irish in the future would get the option to cut it from their education.

In an ideal world, the individual would get a choice to make for themselves. How they use their choice would be up to them, but the important aspect would be they have the choice.

mikemac1

Do whatever the Welsh did

Bound to be a taffy on boards who can explain it

9959

mikemac1 wrote: »

Do whatever the Welsh did

Bound to be a taffy on boards who can explain it

Referring to a Welsh person as 'taffy' might not be the best way to get the ball rolling on this one.

mackerski

golden lane wrote: »

you mean, misquoted.....

I didn't alter your words. Perhaps quoting has a second meaning of which I am unaware.

mackerski

mikemac1 wrote: »

Do whatever the Welsh did

Wasn't their solution to keep speaking Welsh in greater numbers than Irish people kept speaking Irish? Good plan, let's (retrospectively) do that.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Ficheall wrote: »

So in an ideal world, students would only study the subjects they enjoyed, oui? Irish would quite possibly be the first to go, I reckon. Then Maths, maybe. Then French or Business Studies? I've always been of the opinion that History was a bit of a waste of time. I used to love reading ghost stories at Hallowe'en and daubing paint on classroom windows at Christmas. Could we have more of that instead, when we've gotten rid of the boring subjects?

Neither French nor Business Studies is compulsory. I completley agree with you about history, even if you are being sarcastic. Wouldn´t mind seeing more art on the syllabus mysely, but that´s a personal thing.

The point is not the subjects the students "enjoy", it´s about choosing the subjects they see as relevant to them. What is the problem that people have with an education being enjoyable anyway?

Ficheall wrote: »

Their needs?
Come, now. People today seem to have no need of grammar, spelling, or even a particularly extensive vocabulary to get by.
As for "arithmetic" - simply learn how to use the calculator on your phone.

People don`t need grammar or spelling to write letters? Or even emails? Try applying for a job with poor grammar and spelling and see how far that gets you. In any case, if these are skills that are not at least attained by the onset of the leaving, their are much bigger problems than language.

opti0nal wrote: »

Education should equip students with the language, numeracy and cultural knowledge they need to make their way in modern Irish society.

FYP.

mackerski

mackerski wrote: »

Wasn't their solution to keep speaking Welsh in greater numbers than Irish people kept speaking Irish? Good plan, let's (retrospectively) do that.

Put simply, they needed to learn English to do business with England as did Ireland, but unlike the Irish they retained pride in their language. Irish people have learned to hate their language, that's the main reason for its demise, plenty of evidence of that on this thread.

Interest in History

Deleted User wrote: »

Put simply, they needed to learn English to do business with England as did Ireland, but unlike the Irish they retained pride in their language. Irish people have learned to hate their language, that's the main reason for its demise, plenty of evidence of that on this thread.

I'll acceot what you say, just for the sake of argument.

And if this is so, why do the 166 public representatives (Note - "representatives") in Kildare Street not accept the people's point of
view?

This is not a rhetorical question. If it is not answered accurately then any givernment plan will be in conflict with people's wishes and it will fail. As before.

Wibbs

Deleted User wrote: »

Irish people have learned to hate their language, that's the main reason for its demise, plenty of evidence of that on this thread.

I dunno DB, I think outside a minority hate is too strong a word. I think more than anything we're indifferent about the language as a cultural marker. We, I mean the majority, don't feel it defines us as a people(compared to the Welsh say). Most wouldn't like to see it die out either so we end up with a schizo approach to the whole subject.

Lord TSC

I'd agree hate is too strong a word as well.

Maybe hate it when in school, when teens "hate" everything. But I think once you leave school, the majority become apathetic to it, realizing that life is in no way affected by not having it as a language...

Iwasfrozen

An Coilean wrote: »

Ya, that my friend is 'real democracy'

Saying it is the most democratic solution doesn't make it so, lets stop funding hospitals, reduce taxes and let people fend for them selves in the market, but wait, lets not ask anyone first because just doing it without asking is the most democratic solution.
Lets not ask anyone about doing away with funding for Irish, why, because there is a chance, a very good chance as you well know that they won't agree, and then you will have to put your hand in your pocket to pay for something you don't like and that cant be democratic can it? Well actually yes, yes it can.

Indeed yet you have failed to convince me of the merits of your proposed system either on the grounds of efficiency or democracy.

If the majority of people want the state to support the Irish Language, the state not doing that is not more democratic, denying people their rights has never proven to be anything but very wasteful.

So why is a system where the (supposed) majority force the (supposed) minority to pay for the up keep of the language the most fair and efficient system? Why is a system where the language gets more money then it should based on the collective valuations of the population better then one where the language will receive exactly what it is valued at?

No one is denying anyone their right to speak rish amongst themselves, what you do in your own time is none of the states concern but neither should another person be forced to spend their hard earned money up keeping your hobby.

opti0nal

Deleted User wrote: »

rish people have learned to hate their language, that's the main reason for its demise, plenty of evidence of that on this thread.

This is so untrue and if this is what is believed by the Irish language lobby, it goes some way to explain their beligerant attitude towards their fellow citizens and why they have failed to promote Irish using largely coercive policies.

Firstly, Irish people do not hate their language. Our language is English. We speak it very well and Our English-language literature is well regarded internationally.

Surveys produced by the Irish lobby show a lot of goodwill for Irish speaking.

But, we prefer to speak English in our daily lives. It's about time the Irish lobby stopped using shaming tactics, they are counter-productive.

9959

Deleted User wrote: »

Put simply, they needed to learn English to do business with England as did Ireland, but unlike the Irish they retained pride in their language. Irish people have learned to hate their language, that's the main reason for its demise, plenty of evidence of that on this thread.

The above has to be wrong in at least three different ways.

1. As stated by 'Opti0nal' the vast majority of people in this country do not regard 'Gaelige' as their language but would regard it as the language of teachers, politicians and officialdom.

2. 'Hate' is definitely the wrong word to use, 'indifferent' would be more apposite.

3. In order to have "learned to hate" something, one would have had to be taught to hate, who are these teachers of hate and why are they spending their valuable time instillng hatred on a topic which might sometimes irk them but never threatens or causes any major disruption to their daily lives.

By the way, on another thread you posted a appropriately funny music video in response to one of my posts, I really can't remember the song but I do remember laughing, these things are important, so thanks for that.

Merry Christmas dolanbaker, I may disagree with you from time to time, but I think you're a good egg.

Good Luck.

Wibbs

Wibbs wrote: »

I dunno DB, I think outside a minority hate is too strong a word. I think more than anything we're indifferent about the language as a cultural marker. We, I mean the majority, don't feel it defines us as a people(compared to the Welsh say). Most wouldn't like to see it die out either so we end up with a schizo approach to the whole subject.

Fair comment, more indifference or disdain than real hatred, when I tell people that I'm learning Irish, the usual response is "OH" followed by a bit of confusion "what the hell do you want to learn that for!". Most Irish people leave the language at the school gate, unlike the Welsh many of whom will speak it at home, work and in the pub (I lived in Wales for a year).

But anyway Nollaig Shona to one and all

jacktraynor

In my opinion what we should do is all new kids coming into the education system will do all subjects through Irish, so in about 14 years every child in the education system learns through Irish and has done since junior infants. Then start huge taxes on signs,leaflets, advertisements that are in English and very little taxes for them in Irish.

mackerski

jacktraynor wrote: »

In my opinion what we should do is all new kids coming into the education system will do all subjects through Irish, so in about 14 years every child in the education system learns through Irish and has done since junior infants. Then start huge taxes on signs,leaflets, advertisements that are in English and very little taxes for them in Irish.

Why should "we" do such a thing? "We" speak English and are happy to do so. And since "we" live in a democracy "we" won't be adopting any such strategy.

The_Gatsby

paullyons00 wrote: »

I expected to be critized harshly for my opinions on this matter.

you probably all think 'm some kind of pro-communist loo-la, I'm actually not

I just dont think their is any other way of achieving said goal.

You actually are though

Curly Judge

Deleted User wrote: »

Fair comment, more indifference or disdain than real hatred, when I tell people that I'm learning Irish, the usual response is "OH" followed by a bit of confusion "what the hell do you want to learn that for!". Most Irish people leave the language at the school gate, unlike the Welsh many of whom will speak it at home, work and in the pub (I lived in Wales for a year).

But anyway Nollaig Shona to one and all

Only in north Wales.
The people of south Wales are a bit like ourselves as far as proficiency in their native language goes

pjproby

For those of us who participated in the recent referendum, the layout of the voting paper hardly endeared the Irish language to us.

mackerski

Curly Judge wrote: »

The people of south Wales are a bit like ourselves as far as proficiency in their native language goes

I don't think "native language" means what you think it does.

An Coilean

pjproby wrote: »

For those of us who participated in the recent referendum, the layout of the voting paper hardly endeared the Irish language to us.

The layout of the ballot was not the fault of their being two languages on it. It is not beyond the realms of human inginuity to design an easy to understand ballot with more than one language on it.

Curly Judge

pjproby wrote: »

For those of us who participated in the recent referendum, the layout of the voting paper hardly endeared the Irish language to us.

On an aside: the people who designed the referendum paper - and those who signed off on it - should be shot with a ball of goatshyte.

pjproby

The point is that only 100,000 people or less claim to speak the language on a daily basis yet the Irish version of the question was put on an equal footing with the English version. In fact the Irish version was at the top of the paper.
The question posed-re the Senate was very badly worded. Pretending that we are all fluent Irish speakers is simply nonsense.

pjproby

pjproby wrote: »

The point is that only 100,000 people or less claim to speak the language on a daily basis yet the Irish version of the question was put on an equal footing with the English version. In fact the Irish version was at the top of the paper.
The question posed-re the Senate was very badly worded. Pretending that we are all fluent Irish speakers is simply nonsense.

No one is pretending that at all, it is simply giving equal footing to both languages.
There are many countries that have more than one official language! Canada being a classic example & Belgium, (parts of) Wales & Scotland have a similar "second language" issue as Ireland.

I could add in to this the USA as Spanish has become the second language in many parts and there is now a requirement to have Spanish signs & literature available as many of the Hispanic community don't bother to learn English.

LordSutch

Here's someting I've noticed when I collect my kids from english speaking playschool. I usually exchange pleasantries with parents collecting their kids from the adjoing Irish speaking playschool, and the thing that strikes me is that they all speak english to their kids as they come out, and their kids talk back to them exclusively in english! So it seems to me like the speaking of Irish is confined to the classroom?

Doesn't mean anything, its just an observation.

LordSutch

LordSutch wrote: »

Here's someting I've noticed when I collect my kids from english speaking playschool. I usually exchange pleasantries with parents collecting their kids from the adjoing Irish speaking playschool, and the thing that always strikes me is that they all speak english to their kids as they come out, and their kids talk back to them exclusively in english too! So it seems to me like the Irish is confined to the classroom only.

Doesn't mean anything, its just an observation.

Kids are smart, they use the language they need to use to communicate.
If a child has parents from different language backgrounds they'll speak the relevant language when they see the grandparents.

Interest in History

An Coilean wrote: »

The layout of the ballot was not the fault of their being two languages on it. It is not beyond the realms of human inginuity to design an easy to understand ballot with more than one language on it.

Amen to that.

The bad layout of the ballot paper was due lack of skill and care. It was just one instance among many of the technically poor adminsitration of the country.

The featuring of the Irish version is pure politics. An extension of the need of the politicians to justify themselves through something abstract and lofty. It's an understandable need, given that they have made such a bags of the ordinary tasks of running a little country.

Interest in History

LordSutch wrote: »

Here's someting I've noticed when I collect my kids from english speaking playschool. I usually exchange pleasantries with parents collecting their kids from the adjoing Irish speaking playschool, and the thing that strikes me is that they all speak english to their kids as they come out, and their kids talk back to them exclusively in english! So it seems to me like the speaking of Irish is confined to the classroom?

Doesn't mean anything, its just an observation.

The Foras Pátrúnachta, the patron body for the Irish-medium schools, has said that 96% of their schoolchildren come from English-speaking families. And as is well recorded, those families remain English-speaking. How could it be otherwise?

LordSutch

Interest in History wrote: »

The Foras Pátrúnachta, the patron body for the Irish-medium schools, has said that 96% of their schoolchildren come from English-speaking families. And as is well recorded, those families remain English-speaking. How could it be otherwise?

I'm not arguing otherwise, I mearly pointed out that when the parents collect their children from playschool "As Gaeilge" the parents greet their children in English, & then the children reply and converse in English, which as I said "is just an observation" . . .

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

LordSutch wrote: »

I'm not arguing otherwise, I mearly pointed out that when the parents collect their children from playschool "As Gaeilge" the parents greet their children in English, & then the children reply and converse in English, which as I said "is just an observation" . . .

It reverts back to the ultimate question: is Irish something they do at school or something more sigificant to the kids thant that?

roughneck

latin was the language of millions of people for a hell of a long time ,if its no good to people its dead .get over it ,a language is for speaking with everybody not a select few ,so are you special that you can speak a dead dialect that didnt even come from this island ?

LordSutch

LordSutch wrote: »

I'm not arguing otherwise, I mearly pointed out that when the parents collect their children from playschool "As Gaeilge" the parents greet their children in English, & then the children reply and converse in English, which as I said "is just an observation" . . .

It's really down to those parents to (re)learn/use Irish outside the school as well for there to be any real point in having their children taught in a different language to the one used outside the school.


Otherwise Irish is just the "school" language.

Interest in History

LordSutch wrote: »

I'm not arguing otherwise, I mearly pointed out that when the parents collect their children from playschool "As Gaeilge" the parents greet their children in English, & then the children reply and converse in English, which as I said "is just an observation" . . .

Sure! I only meant to underpin your observation

Interest in History

Deleted User wrote: »

It's really down to those parents to (re)learn/use Irish outside the school as well for there to be any real point in having their children taught in a different language to the one used outside the school. Otherwise Irish is just the "school" language.

Their real point in Irish-medium schooling is that the people who choose it like it and are confident that it benefits their children. And choice is good. Nobody claims it results, or needs to result, in a change in a family's vernacular let alone the general population's vernacular.

It would also be good if the rest of the school population were allowed to choose whether or not to study Irish in the Leaving Cert. Fine Gael favours that but the Labour Party blocked it. Presumably the teachers' unions got at them.

podgeandrodge

Trying to read a google map efficiently this evening but not possible due to some gob****e thinking it makes sense to put Irish on half the roadname space.

Spring Onion

podgeandrodge wrote: »

Trying to read a google map efficiently this evening but not possible due to some gob****e thinking it makes sense to put Irish on half the roadname space.

For some odd reason, people painted over the English names on the road signs leaving Galway on the N59 (Clifden road). The signs originally had both Irish and English placenames (Barna, Oughterard, Moycullen etc) and they looked perfect. Now they kinda looked defaced because the colour green used to paint over the English names is darker.

Who would do that? Why? Personally I think this only pushes people further away from the Irish language. It makes people too aware of the Irish language Nazis that ruin it for both sides.

An Coilean

Spring Onion wrote: »

For some odd reason, people painted over the English names on the road signs leaving Galway on the N59 (Clifden road). The signs originally had both Irish and English placenames (Barna, Oughterard, Moycullen etc) and they looked perfect. Now they kinda looked defaced because the colour green used to paint over the English names is darker.

Who would do that? Why? Personally I think this only pushes people further away from the Irish language. It makes people too aware of the Irish language Nazis that ruin it for both sides.

It was done by the State because it was decided about ten years ago that only the Irish Language Placenames in Gaeltacht areas would be used, and that the English versions that were made up and inposed on the local populace by the ordinance survey during atempts the anglacise the country would no longer have any official usage in those areas where Irish is still spoken.

An Coilean

podgeandrodge wrote: »

Trying to read a google map efficiently this evening but not possible due to some gob****e thinking it makes sense to put Irish on half the roadname space.

:eek: You mean some clown was actually mad enough to think that it was in any way acceptable to acnowledge that the English placename is not the only placename on a map?

Shocking, I hope you write a strongly worded letter, when you have had sufficient time to recover from this shock of course.

Iwasfrozen

An Coilean wrote: »

It was done by the State because it was decided about ten years ago that only the Irish Language Placenames in Gaeltacht areas would be used, and that the English versions that were made up and inposed on the local populace by the ordinance survey during atempts the anglacise the country would no longer have any official usage in those areas where Irish is still spoken.

By that logic you'd have to re name every town in the country.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

An Coilean wrote: »

It was done by the State because it was decided about ten years ago that only the Irish Language Placenames in Gaeltacht areas would be used, and that the English versions that were made up and inposed on the local populace by the ordinance survey during atempts the anglacise the country would no longer have any official usage in those areas where Irish is still spoken.

Interesting. What did the Langauge Equality Commissioner do about it? (I'm guessing SFA.)

Iwasfrozen

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Interesting. What did the Langauge Equality Commissioner do about it? (I'm guessing SFA.)

Silly Princess, language equality only goes one way!

Curly Judge

An Coilean wrote: »

It was done by the State because it was decided about ten years ago that only the Irish Language Placenames in Gaeltacht areas would be used, and that the English versions that were made up and inposed on the local populace by the ordinance survey during atempts the anglacise the country would no longer have any official usage in those areas where Irish is still spoken.

Muttoner O'Cuiv, I believe?
Gauleiter in Chief of Irish language fascism.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Silly Princess, language equality only goes one way!

I did make an eduacated guess, in fairness, but I'dd like to hear what the response is if you pretend that it's perfectly acceptable to refuse an order from a guard or ignore a court summons because it's not in two languages, but a roadsign may exist in just one.

feargale

paullyons00 wrote: »

In my opinion, the only way we can possibly revive the Irish language to make it the first language of the people, business and pleasure, is as follows:
All citizens below the age of 30 and above the age of 17 have 5 years to reach an agreed level of fluency.
Each will be assessed through an oral and written exam at the end of those 5 years. C
If the candidate does not pass on his/her first exam, they will be given a second chance to pass but at a higher pass mark.
Any candidate who fails the second exam should be stripped of their rights and citizenship and should face a hefty prison sentence.
Tfhis may seem autocratic or communist, but in my view its the only way we can revive the language or else it will die out in years to come.
I'd love to hear your opinions on my way of thinking and alternative views on how we should go about reviving the language.

Building the new prisons should kick-start the construction industry. On the other hand, the cost of imprisoning 50% or so of the Irish people might render capital punishment more practical. Oh wait, how about labour camps working them to death? What's Irish for Auschwicz? Of course the prison wardens would need to be proficient in English, and having broken their liathroidi agus toin to become fluent in Irish and thus avoid jail, deportation etc. their English might well have become rusty. Would you be setting the exam yourself?
Alternative: As suggested years ago, publish all pornography in Irish and ban same in English - a more fun way of achieving the same objective.

Interest in History

An Coilean wrote: »

It was done by the State because it was decided about ten years ago that only the Irish Language Placenames in Gaeltacht areas would be used, and that the English versions that were made up and inposed on the local populace by the ordinance survey during atempts the anglacise the country would no longer have any official usage in those areas where Irish is still spoken.

It's always well to remember that 'Done by the State' is shorthand for 'Done by an Interest Group using State power'.

The state policy has nothing to do with the will of the people. It contains three main elements; the needs of Oireachtas members for accreditation as patriots; the interest that a small group of people have in the Gaelic language; and the interest of a very large group of people the state-funded rackets that result from the needs of the aforementioned clowns in the Oireachtas.

Curly Judge

An Coilean wrote: »

It was done by the State because it was decided about ten years ago that only the Irish Language Placenames in Gaeltacht areas would be used, and that the English versions that were made up and inposed on the local populace by the ordinance survey during atempts the anglacise the country would no longer have any official usage in those areas where Irish is still spoken.

I don't remember voting for that?

mackerski

An Coilean wrote: »

:eek: You mean some clown was actually mad enough to think that it was in any way acceptable to acnowledge that the English placename is not the only placename on a map?

Shocking, I hope you write a strongly worded letter, when you have had sufficient time to recover from this shock of course.

One of the useful things about digital maps is the possibility to optimise the map for the user. Many (most?) map users would like to see one single name for each feature in the language that suits him or her. Anything more is clutter.

So the "right" solution to this balancing act is to allow the user to choose a language.