How to revive the Irish language.

Interest in History

An Coilean wrote: »

It is, but it is also maintaining programs that act to undermine Irish and push English instead and it is quite likely that on balance the state is having a more negative impact on the Irish language than positive.

This perception that the state has been bending over backwards since its foundation to accomodate the Irish speaking community really has no basis in reality.



It is not the one way street you would present it as, you seem to think that the states language policy only impact on the English speaking community, this is far from true, the English speaking community is quite insulated from any negative impact to them as a result of the language they choose to speak, beyond symbolic gestures and learning Irish in school there is little if any impact on them in reality. How often has a sick English speaking child not had access to a doctor that could speak to them in thier language, how often are English speakers forced to use a different language because there is no one in their local council offices that can speak English with them, when was the last time an English speaker was arrested because they believed that it was their right to use their choice of official language?

It is quite clear to me that the Irish speaking community is far more vulnerable to the states language policys and in reality there is no comparrision between the experiance of both communities of those policies.

But is the presuure from the State's language policy? Is it not from the outer world context which provides the population's living environment. The old Irish speaking districts have been following the same route as the rest of the population in converting the English. I doubt if there are many children who need to communicate with a doctor in Irish or if there are many doctors who could do so anyway. But that situation is not the fault of state policy or the state officials.

Interest in History

An Coilean wrote: »

To be honnest, the message is more that this is an Irish speaking community and not an English speaking community rather than this is Ireland not England.

The who mentality of using Irish for nefarious nationalist purposes is more connected to those who are nationalist first and foremost that the language community itself. To the language community, the language is more important in and of itself than as a symbol of national identity and indeed the use of the language as a symbol by the state while at the same time failing to actually provide for the needs of the language community is not welcomed.

Well - power politics on one hand and attraction to the language for purely cultural reasons overlap all along the line. The standard example of this is the state rule that makes the study of Irish compulsory in the Leaving Cert compulsory for all pupils regardless of their wishes. Lucht na Ghaeilge rightly fear that if it were not compulsory a lot of pupils would not study Irish and it would become harder for the authorities to characterise the preservation of Irish as a national imperative. That in turn would impact on the resources allocated to Irish accross the board - teacher training, TG4, etc., etc. So the availability of those resources to the small Irish speaking community would be reduced. The OLA has slowed that process. And that was by political action by O Cuív and the language activists.

Interest in History

Curly Judge wrote: »

Ooohhh.....I'm not so sure.
In the privacy and secrecy of the ballot box you could be surprised at how people react. Especially if, during the campaign,a few revivalists could be prodded into repeating the interesting opinions of poster No1.
Game changer or what?

The referendum: it's not so much about Irish itself as about the fact that the population is quite fond of the Contitution are are very slow to change it. Most people give a bit of time to Irish in school and then forget about it for the rest of their lives. So the issue would not seem urgent to them or worth the heave of a referendum since, anyway, they can simply distance themselves from Irish without any hassle.

There are very few negative impacts now to the revival policy. It does not affect state employment since a long time back; secondary school teachers only need certification if they are teaching Irish itself; the oral exam n the LC is phony and easliy dealt with.

Grayson

Interest in History wrote: »

The referendum: it's not so much about Irish itself as about the fact that the population is quite fond of the Contitution are are very slow to change it. Most people give a bit of time to Irish in school and then forget about it for the rest of their lives. So the issue would not seem urgent to them or worth the heave of a referendum since, anyway, they can simply distance themselves from Irish without any hassle.

There are very few negative impacts now to the revival policy. It does not affect state employment since a long time back; secondary school teachers only need certification if they are teaching Irish itself; the oral exam n the LC is phony and easliy dealt with.

I have relatives who haven't been to church in years. They are no religious and have discarded about 95% of their religious upbringing. however it's still important that their children get a religious education. Even though they no longer practice or have any desire to become more religious they still want their kids to have the same upbringing as them.

I'd imagine many people who hated irish in school, can't speak it and have no intention of learning it are the same. They'd vote in favour of keeping it.

Call Me Jimmy

Just ban it. People will take it up like never before.

Interest in History

Grayson wrote: »

I have relatives who haven't been to church in years. They are no religious and have discarded about 95% of their religious upbringing. however it's still important that their children get a religious education. Even though they no longer practice or have any desire to become more religious they still want their kids to have the same upbringing as them.

I'd imagine many people who hated irish in school, can't speak it and have no intention of learning it are the same. They'd vote in favour of keeping it.

I'd say that that is a very good comparison with people's attitude to Irish.

And although some Irish speakers feel that their linguistic life is too hard, most people would think that the present state policies are acceptable. Those who want it are supported in their interest and those who don't want it need only have a flavour of it. The hours given to Irish during schooling are felt by many to be too much, so that number will probably shrink over time. But only slowly and gradually...

An Coilean

awec wrote: »

The state should though, right? While we're on the topic of getting rid of obsolete and pointless names on signs.

No.

Curly Judge

Interest in History wrote: »

The referendum: it's not so much about Irish itself as about the fact that the population is quite fond of the Contitution are are very slow to change it. Most people give a bit of time to Irish in school and then forget about it for the rest of their lives. So the issue would not seem urgent to them or worth the heave of a referendum since, anyway, they can simply distance themselves from Irish without any hassle.

There are very few negative impacts now to the revival policy. It does not affect state employment since a long time back; secondary school teachers only need certification if they are teaching Irish itself; the oral exam n the LC is phony and easliy dealt with.

Major misunderstanding here and it's probably my fault.
When I introduced the threat of a referendum in my spat with An Coilean I was referring to the changes in road signage in the Gaeltacht.
I don't think a referendum on banning Irish in schools would pass and so I wouldn't risk introducing one [even if I could].
I thought I was making myself clear at the time but now I'll have to read back and see where I went wrong.

awec

An Coilean wrote: »

No.

What if English speakers get all annoyed at someone putting Irish names on signs in English speaking areas (i.e. the majority of the country) ?

Should these people have the Irish place names "imposed" on them?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

An Coilean wrote: »

No.

So what the fcuk is the point in setting up a language superiority equality commissioner then...?

An Coilean

Interest in History wrote: »

But is the presuure from the State's language policy?

Yes, very much so.
You have to look at the impact of the state in total, not just those policies that have been put in place to support the language.
Such policies to support the language do exist, but that is not the full story, in reality the total impact of the state with regard the language has been negative

The story that is often trotted out that the state has done everything in its power to support the language and has failed because people have by and large rejected it is a falicy. The state has had a negative impact on the language overall and a large part of the supports for the language that do exist have only come about after considrable pressure from people at a community level.

The old Irish speaking districts have been following the same route as the rest of the population in converting the English.

The point you seem to be missing is that this conversion was largly a result of the states language policy and indeed the factors that caused that conversion are largly still extant.

I doubt if there are many children who need to communicate with a doctor in Irish or if there are many doctors who could do so anyway. But that situation is not the fault of state policy or the state officials.

State policy is a factor in both.

An Coilean

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

So what the fcuk is the point in setting up a language superiority equality commissioner then...?

To agree language schemes with public bodies to increase their provision of services in Irish, to act as an ombudsman for language issues coverd under the Official Languages Act and Investigate reports of public bodies breaching that act.

For a greater insight into the work of An Coimisinéir Teanga, have a look at his website.

podgeandrodge

podgeandrodge wrote: »

Trying to read a google map efficiently this evening but not possible due to some gob****e thinking it makes sense to put Irish on half the roadname space.

An Coilean wrote: »

:eek: You mean some clown was actually mad enough to think that it was in any way acceptable to acnowledge that the English placename is not the only placename on a map?

Shocking, I hope you write a strongly worded letter, when you have had sufficient time to recover from this shock of course.

I would have, but it's google so there is no point, but thank you for the suggestion. You're right though, only a clown would think it was acceptable to put 2 languages on every street on a map. Whatever hope there would be for doing this on a paper map it ruins the usability of an online map when using it on a phone.

mackerski wrote: »

One of the useful things about digital maps is the possibility to optimise the map for the user. Many (most?) map users would like to see one single name for each feature in the language that suits him or her. Anything more is clutter.

So the "right" solution to this balancing act is to allow the user to choose a language.

Exactly.

Davidius

Sure do away with them silly English place names, they're only Irish names with gobbledygook spelling.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

An Coilean wrote: »

To agree language schemes with public bodies to increase their provision of services in Irish, to act as an ombudsman for language issues coverd under the Official Languages Act and Investigate reports of public bodies breaching that act.

For a greater insight into the work of An Coimisinéir Teanga, have a look at his website.

Except it's all bull****, isn't it, because the Official LaguageS Act refers to both langauges, where as the Teanga is only interested in one. He is required to take action wherever the Official Languages Act is not implemented and one would argue that not ensuring signposts are in both langauges is him not doing his job, or turning a blind eye to it on the basis that Irish is more imporant, when it isn't, is it? And no, it doesn't matter if this is only in Gaeltscht Areas, because the Gaeltacht is not some anarchic enclave that doesn't have to abide by Irish law.

You can hide behind him all you like, but you've been outed enough times as having a biased opinion where "langauge eguality" is concerned.

Wacker The Attacker

paullyons00 wrote: »

In my opinion, the only way we can possibly revive the Irish language to make it the first language of the people, business and pleasure, is as follows:

All citizens below the age of 30 and above the age of 17 have 5 years to reach an agreed level of fluency.

Each will be assessed through an oral and written exam at the end of those 5 years.

If the candidate does not pass on his/her first exam, they will be given a second chance to pass but at a higher pass mark.

Any candidate who fails the second exam should be stripped of their rights and citizenship and should face a hefty prison sentence.


This may seem autocratic or communist, but in my view its the only way we can revive the language or else it will die out in years to come.

I'd love to hear your opinions on my way of thinking and alternative views on how we should go about reviving the language.

I'd like to tell you what I actually think of this proposal but I don't think its worth the ban.

An Coilean

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Except it's all bull****, isn't it, because the Official LaguageS Act refers to both langauges, where as the Teanga is only interested in one.

This is getting beyond a joke. The only bull**** here is the idea that English speakers need an ombudsman to access services in English.

In general yes, his role is to ensure that the public has access to public services in both languages, in reality there are no public services that are not already available in English. (If you can find one I am sure he would be delighted to help you, even of only for the sheer novility of it)

As such his job is to try to bring access to in services in Irish up to parity with English, though in reality the gulf is so vast that just getting some services in Irish into existance in some areas is already more than a full time job for him.

He is required to take action wherever the Official Languages Act is not implemented and one would argue that not ensuring signposts are in both langauges is him not doing his job, or turning a blind eye to it on the basis that Irish is more imporant, when it isn't, is it?

He is required to take action when he recieves a complaint from a member of the public, and yes, in general a roadsign being in one language only would be in breach of the act, except where the minister puts an official placenames order in effect.
There is an official placenames order in effect for Gaeltacht placenames which means that only the Irish version of Gaeltacht placenames are to be used, and as such these signs are not in breach of the act.

And no, it doesn't matter if this is only in Gaeltscht Areas, because the Gaeltacht is not some anarchic enclave that doesn't have to abide by Irish law.

No, they are not, but Gaeltacht placenames being in Irish only is not in breach of the law, it is what the law stipulates.

You know what really annoys me about this though, your absoutly stinking hypocracy on this issue. Giving out about Gaeltacht placenames being in Irish only which is not actually in breach of any law, when you cannot walk down any street in the country without comming accross signs in English only which are actually in breach of the law, and you have the cheek to accuse me of bias when it comes to language equality. Bull****.

You can hide behind him all you like, but you've been outed enough times as having a biased opinion where "langauge eguality" is concerned.

Equality? You're having a laugh, the reality is that if access to services in Irish was at even a fraction of that in English it would be a vast improvement on the current situation. The idea that Irish has any kind of a superior position over English in this country is a delusion.

English has a vastly superior position to Irish in this state, and you are attacking those who are working to make them at least a little bit more equal, do you really think someone interested in language equality would be doing that? It seems to me that all you are interested in is maintaining the dominance of English to the greatest extent possible.

Interest in History

Curly Judge wrote: »

Major misunderstanding here and it's probably my fault.
When I introduced the threat of a referendum in my spat with An Coilean I was referring to the changes in road signage in the Gaeltacht.
I don't think a referendum on banning Irish in schools would pass and so I wouldn't risk introducing one [even if I could].
I thought I was making myself clear at the time but now I'll have to read back and see where I went wrong.

No need to look back. We're in agreement overall.

The basic position of the population is that Irish doesn't matter in any serious way. They look on the shenanigans of the politicians with a slightly curled lip, but again. as an accepted form of posturing for public representatives. There has never been an English speaking family that turned to speaking Irish as a result of the exhortations of a T.D.

And that's true of the road signs too. Having them there does not increase the number of people talking Irish and their removel will not reduce the number of people talking Irish. They don't matter!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

An Coilean wrote: »

This is getting beyond a joke. The only bull**** here is the idea that English speakers need an ombudsman to access services in English.

In general yes, his role is to ensure that the public has access to public services in both languages, in reality there are no public services that are not already available in English. (If you can find one I am sure he would be delighted to help you, even of only for the sheer novility of it)

Roadsigns. Done.

As such his job is to try to bring access to in services in Irish up to parity with English, though in reality the gulf is so vast that just getting some services in Irish into existance in some areas is already more than a full time job for him.

He is required to take action when he recieves a complaint from a member of the public, and yes, in general a roadsign being in one language only would be in breach of the act, except where the minister puts an official placenames order in effect.
There is an official placenames order in effect for Gaeltacht placenames which means that only the Irish version of Gaeltacht placenames are to be used, and as such these signs are not in breach of the act.

So, we have two laws in direct contradcition with each other. Lovely. Only in Ireland. :rolleyes: And you call this progress?

No, they are not, but Gaeltacht placenames being in Irish only is not in breach of the law, it is what the law stipulates.

Yes, they are, as you have pointed out yourself.

You know what really annoys me about this though, your absoutly stinking hypocracy on this issue. Giving out about Gaeltacht placenames being in Irish only which is not actually in breach of any law, when you cannot walk down any street in the country without comming accross signs in English only which are actually in breach of the law, and you have the cheek to accuse me of bias when it comes to language equality. Bull****.

Yeah... hypocricy... Are you sure you know what you're talking about? No sane poster is arguing in favour of English only. Only one poster is arguign in favour of Irish only, and that would be you.

Equality? You're having a laugh, the reality is that if access to services in Irish was at even a fraction of that in English it would be a vast improvement on the current situation. The idea that Irish has any kind of a superior position over English in this country is a delusion.

I didn't say it did. I said YOU wanted it to have one while pretending you only wanted equality.

English has a vastly superior position to Irish in this state, and you are attacking those who are working to make them at least a little bit more equal, do you really think someone interested in language equality would be doing that? It seems to me that all you are interested in is maintaining the dominance of English to the greatest extent possible.

No, I'm not. As well you know. I'm merely poiting out that equality goes both ways. "Hypocricy", you cry, is stating you want Irish on the same level as English while happily indicating your compliance with situations where Irish as ahead of English.

So enough with the strawman. You're fooling noone.

An Coilean

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Roadsigns. Done.

So, we have two laws in direct contradcition with each other. Lovely. Only in Ireland. :rolleyes: And you call this progress?

No, the placenames order is covered under the OLA, you should really look up the legislation you are complaining about, it might save you so many bull**** laden claims.

Yes, they are, as you have pointed out yourself.

Where? Show me where I pointed it out myself! Your argument is so full of holes you have to resort to blatent lies at this stage.

The law is quite clear, and Gaeltacht road signs in Irish only are not in breach of it. Like it on not, that is the reality. The Gaeltacht is abiding by the law as regards roadsigns, the rest of the country is a different story. As I said you can't walk down any road in the state without coming across signs that actually are in breach of the law because they are in English only, but you are perfectly happy to turn a blind eye to those.
You come on here and complain about signs breaking the law for being in Irish, you have not one shred of credibility.

Yeah... hypocricy... Are you sure you know what you're talking about? No sane poster is arguing in favour of English only. Only one poster is arguign in favour of Irish only, and that would be you.

Where did I argue in favor of it? Is highlighting the reality of Irish law an argument in favor of it all of a sudden? Look at the response over the last few pages of this thread, its obvious from the reaction that there are several posters who can't stand the idea of the dominance of English being reduced even a little bit, any you are clearly one of them.
Getting worked up about a few Irish only signs in the Gaeltacht, when the country is awash with English only signs that actually are in breach of the law is nothing short of hypocrisy, plain and simple.

I didn't say it did. I said YOU wanted it to have one while pretending you only wanted equality.

And who the hell do you think you are to tell me what I want? Superiority? If access to services in Irish was at a level even a fraction of that of English I would be delighted, but it seems you can't stand even that and feel the need to deride the people who are working to make it happen.

No, I'm not. As well you know. I'm merely poiting out that equality goes both ways. "Hypocricy", you cry, is stating you want Irish on the same level as English while happily indicating your compliance with situations where Irish as ahead of English.

The thing is I don't want Irish on the same level as English, the gulf is so vast that parity is would be a meaninglessly unrealistic target.
As I said, Irish having even a fraction of the accessibility of English would be a huge step forward.
As for the handful of situations where Irish is ahead of English, no I'm not overly worked up about them, its hard to see how anyone could be given the dominance of English in this country.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

An Coilean wrote: »

No, the placenames order is covered under the OLA, you should really look up the legislation you are complaining about, it might save you so many bull**** laden claims.

Where? Show me where I pointed it out myself! Your argument is so full of holes you have to resort to blatent lies at this stage.

The law is quite clear, and Gaeltacht road signs in Irish only are not in breach of it. Like it on not, that is the reality. The Gaeltacht is abiding by the law as regards roadsigns, the rest of the country is a different story. As I said you can't walk down any road in the state without coming across signs that actually are in breach of the law because they are in English only, but you are perfectly happy to turn a blind eye to those.
You come on here and complain about signs breaking the law for being in Irish, you have not one shred of credibility.




Where did I argue in favor of it? Is highlighting the reality of Irish law an argument in favor of it all of a sudden? Look at the response over the last few pages of this thread, its obvious from the reaction that there are several posters who can't stand the idea of the dominance of English being reduced even a little bit, any you are clearly one of them.
Getting worked up about a few Irish only signs in the Gaeltacht, when the country is awash with English only signs that actually are in breach of the law is nothing short of hypocrisy, plain and simple.




And who the hell do you think you are to tell me what I want? Superiority? If access to services in Irish was at a level even a fraction of that of English I would be delighted, but it seems you can't stand even that and feel the need to deride the people who are working to make it happen.



The thing is I don't want Irish on the same level as English, the gulf is so vast that parity is would be a meaninglessly unrealistic target.
As I said, Irish having even a fraction of the accessibility of English would be a huge step forward.
As for the handful of situations where Irish is ahead of English, no I'm not overly worked up about them, its hard to see how anyone could be given the dominance of English in this country.

Not bothered about the order - it's the monolingualism that is in contradiction (admittedly, it's down to vandalism in a lot of cases, but surely this is just as serious as refusing to cooperate with a guard?) And you have said it was acceptable (and in this post, legal) to have monolingual Irish road signs, which goes against your champion of Irish langauge equality.

Law is not a pick-and-choose buffet. Either you're for everthing the State produces as bilingual (including BOTH roadsigns AND guards) or you're not bothered about it.

An Coilean

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Not bothered about the order - it's the monolingualism that is in convention (admittedly, it's down to vandalism in a lot of cases, but surely this is just as serious as refusing to cooperate with a guard?) And you have said it was acceptable (and in this post, legal) to have monolingual Irish road signs, which goes against your champion of Irish langauge equality.

By 'champion of Irish language equality' I am guessing you mean An Coimisinéir Teanga. His job is to act as an ombudsman for areas covered under the Official Languages Act. If you think Irish only roadsigns in the Gaeltacht goes against that, then you don't understand the act.

Law is not a pick-and-choose buffet. Either you're for everthing the State produces as bilingual (including BOTH roadsigns AND guards) or you're not bothered about it.

Have you actually read the official languages act? Your statements come across as someone who does not really know what they are talking about. Let's be clear here, what ever you think the law should or shouldn't be, what it is, is what is written down in the statute book.

To be honest, I'm not particularly bothered about what is available in English, given a choice, I would never use a public service in English. I am for increased access to public services in Irish.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

An Coilean wrote: »

By 'champion of Irish language equality' I am guessing you mean An Coimisinéir Teanga. His job is to act as an ombudsman for areas covered under the Official Languages Act. If you think Irish only roadsigns in the Gaeltacht goes against that, then you don't understand the act.




Have you actually read the official languages act? Your statements come across as someone who does not really know what they are talking about. Let's be clear here, what ever you think the law should or shouldn't be, what it is, is what is written down in the statute book.

To be honest, I'm not particularly bothered about what is available in English, given a choice, I would never use a public service in English. I am for increased access to public services in Irish.

Section 32 refers to the order of the placenames on documentation (and I would include roadsigns as documentation). Placenames beign plural.

Furthermore:
http://www.coimisineir.ie/downloads/Comharthaitrachta_2011.pdf
States that although it is not the remit of the Commissioner (fair enoguh) it is actually in breach of law.

But hey - who cares? As long as the Irish is okay Irish speakers win, screw everyone else (just hope I don;t have to ask a guard for directions only to be told he refusest ospeak English to me).

An Coilean

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Section 32 refers to the order of the placenames on documentation (and I would include roadsigns as documentation). Placenames beign plural.

Furthermore:
http://www.coimisineir.ie/downloads/Comharthaitrachta_2011.pdf
States that although it is not the remit of the Commissioner (fair enoguh) it is actually in breach of law.

You might include roadsigns as documentation, but the law does not. Roadsigns are covered under the road traffic act fyi, and the official languages makes provision for a placenames order to be put in place to the effect that only one language can be used. That is what the law allows.

This is the relevant extract form the Placenames order that dropped the English version of Gaeltacht placenames for official purposes.

The Order declares the official Irish language version of placenames in Gaeltacht areas. In accordance with the provisions of section 33(1) of the Official Languages Act 2003, the English language version of these placenames ceases to have any force and effect as on and from 28 March 2005.

Do you accept now that the law is not in fact being breached?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

An Coilean wrote: »

You might include roadsigns as documentation, but the law does not. Roadsigns are covered under the road traffic act fyi, and the official languages makes provision for a placenames order to be put in place to the effect that only one language can be used. That is what the law allows.

This is the relevant extract form the Placenames order that dropped the English version of Gaeltacht placenames for official purposes.



Do you accept now that the law is not in fact being breached?

It is still being breached - I just got the authority wrong.

And I still find it extemmely hypocritical to say that monolingual roadsigns are perfectly okay where as monolingual guards are not. And as long as the langauge is Irish it's perfectly acceptable: there'd be war if there were English only roadsigns, as well you know.

(I'm not nessecarily saying this is your view - but it's easy to assume it by reading your posts - but it's a hypocritical viewpoint whoever presents it.)

Curly Judge

An Coilean wrote: »

You might include roadsigns as documentation, but the law does not. Roadsigns are covered under the road traffic act fyi, and the official languages makes provision for a placenames order to be put in place to the effect that only one language can be used. That is what the law allows.

This is the relevant extract form the Placenames order that dropped the English version of Gaeltacht placenames for official purposes.

The Order declares the official Irish language version of placenames in Gaeltacht areas. In accordance with the provisions of section 33(1) of the Official Languages Act 2003, the English language version of these placenames ceases to have any force and effect as on and from 28 March 2005.

Do you accept now that the law is not in fact being breached?

I'd love to be in a position to take that one to the European Court.
Fashism of the highest order!
I thought that when we threw the shackles of the Catholic shirt and the IRA we were finished with this type of nonsense.

An Coilean

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

It is still being breached - I just got the authority wrong.

What is being Breached? What part of what law?
Clearly it is not the Official Languages Act as the power to put in place a Placenames order comes from that act.

And I still find it extemmely hypocritical to say that monolingual roadsigns are perfectly okay where as monolingual guards are not.

Monolingual Guards are OK. The Gardaí as an organisation not being able to deal with the public through Irish when requested is not. The problem is not with any individual Garda.The organisation has an obligation to deal with the public through Irish as well as English, not each individual Garda, the organisation was in breach of its obligations to serve the public in both official languages by not having any system in place to deal with a member of the public through Irish when they wished to use Irish in carrying out their business.
The language rights of the person in that incident were breached because the Gardaí as an organisation were found to be unable to deal with him through his choice of official language. Its not the fault of the individual Garda on the ground.

And as long as the langauge is Irish it's perfectly acceptable: there'd be war if there were English only roadsigns, as well you know.

If? IF? Open your eyes the next time you leave the house, there are thousands of roadsigns in English only in every county in Ireland, and they are all in breach of the law.

An Coilean

Curly Judge wrote: »

I'd love to be in a position to take that one to the European Court.

On what basis would you challenge it?

Curly Judge

An Coilean wrote: »

On what basis would you challenge it?

On the grounds that an amenity I, my father and my grandfather had enjoyed for years had been taken away at the stroke of a pen.

Iwasfrozen

An Coilean wrote: »

No for two reasons, firstly the placenames order relates to Gaeltacht areas only, secondaly there is no renaming, just dropping the English transliteration.

Most towns in Ireland have names translated from Irish. Like I said "By that logic you'd have to re name every town in the country."

feargale

There have been cases of foreign visitors consulting maps in Gaeltacht areas, and seeing names on roadsigns that corresponded to nothing on their maps. It's difficult to see what benefit that state of affairs affords the Irish language, and it certainly does no practical service to visitors.
Incidentally I missed the first half or more of this thread, but on perusing a few of the early posts, I'm curious to know how a thread that began with a send up morphed into a serious debate.

An Coilean

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Most towns in Ireland have names translated from Irish. Like I said "By that logic you'd have to re name every town in the country."

Well, again its hardily 'renaming' and the order is for Gaeltachts, not areas outside of the Gaeltacht.
I dont see the dificulty in getting that.

An Coilean

feargale wrote: »

There have been cases of foreign visitors consulting maps in Gaeltacht areas, and seeing names on roadsigns that corresponded to nothing on their maps. It's difficult to see what benefit that state of affairs affords the Irish language, and it certainly does no practical service to visitors.
Incidentally I missed the first half or more of this thread, but on perusing a few of the early posts, I'm curious to know how a thread that began with a send up morphed into a serious debate.

I would hope that the private map makers would have the sense to stop using out of date information. All new OSI maps have the correct info on them.

mackerski

An Coilean wrote: »

I would hope that the private map makers would have the sense to stop using out of date information. All new OSI maps have the correct info on them.

As long as there are plenty of people in the country (or world) who know a place as Dingle or Maam Cross those names will not be out of date. If a minister or you or anybody else wants to tell us that we shouldn't or mustn't use such names then we will have learned something unpleasant about human nature.

Curly Judge

An Coilean wrote: »

I would hope that the private map makers would have the sense to stop using out of date information. All new OSI maps have the correct info on them.

How would a German tourist discover that he wanted to go to Ath Cinn in the first place?

dubhthach

Curly Judge wrote: »

How would a German tourist discover that he wanted to go to Ath Cinn in the first place?

Why would any tourist want to go there in the first place? The only thing that's interesting about the area is the endemic Cryptosporidium.

Iwasfrozen

An Coilean wrote: »

In general yes, his role is to ensure that the public has access to public services in both languages, in reality there are no public services that are not already available in English. (If you can find one I am sure he would be delighted to help you, even of only for the sheer novility of it)

I can think of one. Signposts in the Gaelteacht.

Iwasfrozen

An Coilean wrote: »

Well, again its hardily 'renaming' and the order is for Gaeltachts, not areas outside of the Gaeltacht.
I dont see the dificulty in getting that.

It is renaming. And I know it's for Gaeltachts, hence "By that logic you'd have to re name every town in the country."

FurQyou

Make it read and sound exactly like english.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

An Coilean wrote: »

What is being Breached? What part of what law?
Clearly it is not the Official Languages Act as the power to put in place a Placenames order comes from that act.

The Irish language provisions for traffic signs under the Traffic Signs Manual are provisions of an enactment relating to the status or use of Irish. This means that An Coimisinéir Teanga has statutory authority to investigate complaints regarding problems with the use of Irish or lack of Irish on traffic signs.

http://www.coimisineir.ie/index.php?page=trafficsigns&lang=english&tid=42

Monolingual Guards are OK. The Gardaí as an organisation not being able to deal with the public through Irish when requested is not. The problem is not with any individual Garda.The organisation has an obligation to deal with the public through Irish as well as English, not each individual Garda, the organisation was in breach of its obligations to serve the public in both official languages by not having any system in place to deal with a member of the public through Irish when they wished to use Irish in carrying out their business.
The language rights of the person in that incident were breached because the Gardaí as an organisation were found to be unable to deal with him through his choice of official language. Its not the fault of the individual Garda on the ground.

Ah, not that wasnt' what you said when this first came up for discussion - in fact, you proclaimed the guy to have been "arrested" for trying to speak Irish.

If? IF? Open your eyes the next time you leave the house, there are thousands of roadsigns in English only in every county in Ireland, and they are all in breach of the law.

Not living in Ireland, but if that;s the case then the Commission definitely isn;t doing his job.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

An Coilean wrote: »

I would hope that the private map makers would have the sense to stop using out of date information. All new OSI maps have the correct info on them.

If the maps are bought in a foreign country, that's unlikley to be the case. Anyway, if the can;t be found by tourists, they're shooting the,selves in the foot and then trying to blame the bullet.

dubhthach

FurQyou wrote: »

Make it read and sound exactly like english.

Shán Ó Cuív proposed that very idea over 100 years ago (the spelling anyways). He called his system "An Litriú Shimplí" He went so far to change the spelling of his name from Seán Ó Caoimh .

Plenty of talk about his grandson on this thread.

dubhthach

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

If the maps are bought in a foreign country, that's unlikley to be the case. Anyway, if the can;t be found by tourists, they're shooting the,selves in the foot and then trying to blame the bullet.

People still buy maps?

Birroc

dubhthach wrote: »

People still buy maps?

Shops and service stations still sell them.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

dubhthach wrote: »

People still buy maps?

I believe, so, yes; although if you have, say, a German sat-nav, I have no idea what langauge the placenames in the Gaeltacht will be in.

DonkeyStyle \o/

I've never even bought a map.

dubhthach

DonkeyStyle \o/ wrote: »

I've never even bought a map.

I did once back in 1998 or thereabouts, simpler times!

dubhthach

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I believe, so, yes; although if you have, say, a German sat-nav, I have no idea what langauge the placenames in the Gaeltacht will be in.

Sure but when I type Munich into my gps I'm not discommoded when the road sign says München

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/1383944_2399131907588_950004541_n.jpg

nabanoga

I'm Irish, I have a very small bit of Gaeilge even after doing it at honours level in Leaving (many years ago), which I never use. I wish I knew more, I wish it was easier and less embarrassing to use the bit I have but the reality is we are are now an English speaking country. But there are still people in this country that are born into Gaelic speaking regions, where there are no jobs and they are forced to leave to get a third level education and decent work. Maybe more of an effort should be made to preserve the language there. It would be absolutely shameful if it died out as a living language. There would be no one to blame but ourselves if we were the ones to let it die out completely, horrifying for us as a nation, we usually prefer to have someone else to blame!

Iwasfrozen

dubhthach wrote: »

Sure but when I type Munich into my gps I'm not discommoded when the road sign says München

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/1383944_2399131907588_950004541_n.jpg

The problem isn't with Irish place names being used, it's with the double standard that's being set where signposts in the English speaking part of Ireland have to be bilingual but those in the Irish speaking part don't. Imagine the same scenario in Belgium or Canada.