Ireland Tour to New Zealand 2012 Discussion thread

shuffol

Delighted to see Tuohy kept in, there's really nothing to be gained from going back to DOC at this stage, should also mean that DOC will be out of the 22 come the AI's and I think thats good news for Munster as they'll need him to guide the youth during the international break with MOD retired.

Murray and Mcfadden are lucky boys, they're getting a lot of free passes into the starting XV.

Fishooks12

shuffol wrote: »

Delighted to see Tuohy kept in, there's really nothing to be gained from going back to DOC at this stage, should also mean that DOC will be out of the 22 come the AI's and I think thats good news for Munster as they'll need him to guide the youth during the international break with MOD retired.

Murray and Mcfadden are lucky boys, they're getting a lot of free passes into the starting XV.

Murray was very good last week??

shuffol

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Murray was very good last week??

I still think Reddan deserves a start, Murrays performance levels on the whole have been quite poor but Kidney has decided that he's going to keep faith with him from here on.

Teferi

Yeah Murray improved last week. No issues with him starting. Can't wait until he gets some good scrummie coaching at Munster. He will really start to deliver, I think. At the same time you would have to feel for Reddan.

Klunk_NZ

bamboozle wrote: »

am quiet happy with the team except i think there is an unfair burden on Wallace to come into the 3rd test having not played in 4 weeks. NZ will aim to exploit this.

NZ having 2 7's in their back row is a good indication of the respect they have for SOB.

for me it is crucial that BOD remained at 13 this weekend and was not moved to 12 to facilitate Earls. BOD's defence at 13 is crucial.

I'd have started Trimble in his natural position at 14, however McFadden after 3 tests is going to be more used to playing 14. I wish some folk would appreciate that McFadden's defence at 14 in the first test should not be a template against which to benchmark his ability to play & defend at 12 which is his natural position.

Hopefully Loccy's work close in will enable POM to roam the field looking to carry ball. POM's selection will probably ensure SOB's ball carrying will be limited.

I'm excited at prospect, NZ less Carter & Reed are there for the taking. i fully expect to see SOB introducing himself to Cruden early on...

i expect further improvements this week from a fitter Ross and Touhy who i thought left an impact last week.

Or an indication of 3 injuries in the loosies and thompson too small to play a 6?

Not dispute how good SOB is though, but he isn't team re-structuring good.

Anatidaephobia

Swiwi wrote: »

Have you googled the definition of anatidaephobia?

Oh god, I'm an idiot. I thought you were referencing my post, I want back a few pages looking to see if Duckysauce had already said when the team was being announced. :pac:

WeeBushy

bamboozle wrote: »

am quiet happy with the team except i think there is an unfair burden on Wallace to come into the 3rd test having not played in 4 weeks. NZ will aim to exploit this.

On this, he played against the baabaas, so its only been two weeks. Also according to an interview with him in the IT today, he's been working with Ulster's personal trainer since then so has kept fit.

I'm not worried about him slotting into the team, only concern about his readiness for the game would be jet lag for me.

irishbucsfan

McFaddens natural position isn't 12. He came through as a 13 and had terrible trouble with defense against some average teams. Then O'Malley pushed him inside to 12 where he's been good at Rabo level for a couple of seasons now. He has played all of the big games of his career on the wing. Keith Earls is much more a 13 than McFadden is a 12 at this moment in time.

I think McFaddens future lies in an ability to be as versatile as possible because there are players with greater potential than he zeroing in on his positions of choice at both provincial level and international level.

shuffol

WeeBushy wrote: »

On this, he played against the baabaas, so its only been two weeks. Also according to an interview with him in the IT today, he's been working with Ulster's personal trainer since then so has kept fit.

I'm not worried about him slotting into the team, only concern about his readiness for the game would be jet lag for me.

Baa Baas game was 29th of May.

bamboozle

Klunk_NZ wrote: »

Or an indication of 3 injuries in the loosies and thompson too small to play a 6?

Not dispute how good SOB is though, but he isn't team re-structuring good.

did they not have the option of keeping Thompson at 6 and bringing Messan in at 8 and keeping mccaw at 7?

i certainly imagine the amount of balls NZ have lost at ruck time to be a factor in having 2 7's in this test.

Not to mention fact SOB has been outshining RMcC....;)

Tox56

Klunk_NZ wrote: »

bamboozle wrote: »

am quiet happy with the team except i think there is an unfair burden on Wallace to come into the 3rd test having not played in 4 weeks. NZ will aim to exploit this.

NZ having 2 7's in their back row is a good indication of the respect they have for SOB.

for me it is crucial that BOD remained at 13 this weekend and was not moved to 12 to facilitate Earls. BOD's defence at 13 is crucial.

I'd have started Trimble in his natural position at 14, however McFadden after 3 tests is going to be more used to playing 14. I wish some folk would appreciate that McFadden's defence at 14 in the first test should not be a template against which to benchmark his ability to play & defend at 12 which is his natural position.

Hopefully Loccy's work close in will enable POM to roam the field looking to carry ball. POM's selection will probably ensure SOB's ball carrying will be limited.

I'm excited at prospect, NZ less Carter & Reed are there for the taking. i fully expect to see SOB introducing himself to Cruden early on...

i expect further improvements this week from a fitter Ross and Touhy who i thought left an impact last week.

Or an indication of 3 injuries in the loosies and thompson too small to play a 6?

Not dispute how good SOB is though, but he isn't team re-structuring good.

I think it's the effect a whole team has had, Ireland were constantly turning over ball in those two tests, SOB was at the heart of this but was assisted by the likes of Best, POM, Heaslip, Healy and BOD.

It's something similar to what goes on at Leinster, they don't have a single Pocock-like out and out 7 (although SOB is starting to fulfill that role), the whole team is strong over the ball, whether that be BOD and D'Arcy in midfield, former flanker Strauss, Healy is handy and the whole backrow make a nuisance of themselves.

Even in that first test, the number of turnovers was one area of success for Ireland, and I think NZ recognise that.

dub_skav

bilston wrote: »

The selection of Wallace was inevitable once he was called up, not even Deccie would send someone halfway round the world to hold tackle bags for a couple of days.

Did Duffy not do just that

thomond2006

dub_skav wrote: »

Did Duffy not do just that

He has been out there for longer than "a few days" tbf.

shuffol

irishbucsfan wrote: »

McFaddens natural position isn't 12. He came through as a 13 and had terrible trouble with defense against some average teams. Then O'Malley pushed him inside to 12 where he's been good at Rabo level for a couple of seasons now. He has played all of the big games of his career on the wing. Keith Earls is much more a 13 than McFadden is a 12 at this moment in time.

I think McFaddens future lies in an ability to be as versatile as possible because there are players with greater potential than he zeroing in on his positions of choice at both provincial level and international level.

Agreed, I think a long spell out through injury could see Mcfadden fall behind a few players for Ireland and Leinster.

dub_skav

thomond2006 wrote: »

He has been out there for longer than "a few days" tbf.

But he was only covering earls, so he was in the end only needed for a few days

Scioch

Delighted Wallace is in and Ealrs is moved back to wing where he belongs. But I wouldnt have McFadden ahead of Trimble at 14, McFadden is an average utility back, comfortable enough to cover a lot of positions but not good enough to be starting any. I'd also start Reddan ahead of Murray, now that Kidney has been proven not wrong with Murrays rare good performance last week I doubt we'll ever see Reddan as a regular starter again.

Disappointed Marshall didnt get a run but he was always unlikely. Kidney tried his experimenting in the first test and made a mess of it.

Clearlier

totallegend wrote: »

I'm disappointed by that team. Kidney is chasing the result that will redeem his reputation at the expense of any sort of squad development.

if we win, I'll be delighted but the team will land back in Dublin and what will we have learned? That Tuohy is good but not as good as O'Connell, that Fitzpatrick needs to hit the treadmill and that Earls is not a 12? Great, they could have saved the airfare.

What about Cave? Seven minutes off the bench in the first test. Loughney? Could well be the best option as sub prop but we just don't know. Brett Wilkinson must be delighted with having been involved in yet another squad and still have no caps.

The probability is that we'll come home with three defeats and be none the wiser as to where this squad is going. I'm sick of it.

I'm no great fan of where we have been heading for the past few years but I think that you're overstating the case.

• We've learned that Fitzpatrick has a pretty good chance of making it at this level and
• that Loughney is nowhere near the standard required.
• Earls didn't play at 12, he played at 13 (BOD just likes to wear 13 all the time) and we learned that he has an awful lot of defensive development to do to play that position again.
• We learned that Murray's passing simply isn't good enough (I thought he had been doing well last week until Reddan came on and put some real pace into the game)
• We know for sure that Zebo isn't ready yet (although many did think that already)

Perhaps we could have learned more, I would have preferred Cave ahead of Earls for the first test at outside centre because he simply knows the position an awful lot better and plays it a lot more naturally. As it was he had a bad few minutes but I'd hope that it's not taken as a serious indicator of his level of ability and that he's given further opportunities to demonstrate what he can do. I would have liked to have seen Gilroy given a chance.

Deleted User wrote: »

7 minutes is barely long enough to have 2 scrums and a penalty kick, let alone cover yourself in glory.

It was enough to concede a try all by himself though and pull back a player who hadn't got the ball.

Fishooks12

Clearlier wrote: »

I'm no great fan of where we have been heading for the past few years but I think that you're overstating the case.

• We've learned that Fitzpatrick has a pretty good chance of making it at this level and
  [*]that Loughney is nowhere near the standard required.
  
• Earls didn't play at 12, he played at 13 (BOD just likes to wear 13 all the time) and we learned that he has an awful lot of defensive development to do to play that position again.
  
• We learned that Murray's passing simply isn't good enough (I thought he had been doing well last week until Reddan came on and put some real pace into the game)
• We know for sure that Zebo isn't ready yet (although many did think that already)

Perhaps we could have learned more, I would have preferred Cave ahead of Earls for the first test at outside centre because he simply knows the position an awful lot better and plays it a lot more naturally. As it was he had a bad few minutes but I'd hope that it's not taken as a serious indicator of his level of ability and that he's given further opportunities to demonstrate what he can do. I would have liked to have seen Gilroy given a chance.







It was enough to concede a try all by himself though and pull back a player who hadn't got the ball.

You realise that's all opinion right? The highlighted bits that I don't share so maybe don't use "we" in future when referring to your opinion


1) We didn't I didn't see near enough of Loughney to suggest that he's not up to the standard

2) Earls defense wasn't the problem, rather the defensive tactics we employed in the first test. He's solid in defense at 13

3) Murray's passing has always been good. It's his speed at the base that was the problem which seems to be improving as we saw last week

4) Again, one game where he was actually decent is not enough to make such an assumption on Zebo.

molloyjh

molloyjh wrote: »

Personally I'd go with:

1. Healy
2. Best
3. Ross
4. Tuohy
5. Ryan
6. McLaughlin
7. SOB
8. POM

9. Reddan
10. Sexton
11. Earls
12. Wallace
13. BOD
14. McFadden
15. Kearney

Replacements:
16. Cronin
17. Fitzpatrick
18. DOC
19. Henry
20. Murray
21. ROG
22. Trimble

Well I obviously have feck all to complain about so. The only difference between my preferred team and the one Deccie picked is at 9. With a creative 12 there lets hope we go out and play like we did in the final 20 last week....I thought we looked very dangerous at times there and with Sexton at 10 and Wallace at 12 we could see some good rugby.

Clearlier

Fishooks12 wrote: »

You realise that's all opinion right? The highlighted bits that I don't share so maybe don't use "we" in future when referring to your opinion

Oui, Monsieur!

Clearlier

Fishooks12 wrote: »

You realise that's all opinion right? The highlighted bits that I don't share so maybe don't use "we" in future when referring to your opinion

More seriously.

Loughney went backwards very, very quickly at scrumtime. The difference in the tighthead side of the Irish scrum between Fitzpatrick going off and him coming on was immense and I was very relieved that we went to uncontested scrums.

The bit about Earls playing at 12 is a fact. He lined up there at all the set pieces where I could see him.

His defensive positioning is open to interpretation but IMO was naive in the first test. Go back and look at the game and you'll see him staying a step behind BOD when in reality he needed to be at least level and possibly a step in front. It's a natural inclination when you're not used to playing the position but it cost us and if given the opportunity to play 13 a bit more I think that he'll learn better judgement. I simply don't buy the argument about a different defensive system (if you can point me to a quote by one of the coaches about changing the system I'll change my mind).

Murray's passing - I don't see how it could be argued that he's as quick as Reddan at moving the ball away from the breakdown but that in itself doesn't mean that it's not good enough. I think that he just takes that quarter second out of the ball that the backline really need. It's not an insurmountable challenge but he should be working on this aspect of his game non-stop for the next 18 months to hope to get it to the right level.

On Zebo I thought it was instructive that when I went on to youtube to see if I could see any more of him the majority of his highlights show him running down the wing. There's nothing wrong with that per se but you expect more of a winger. The good ones go looking for work and support their fullback. I didn't see much evidence of this from Zebo. That said, I thought he did ok in the first test without ever inspiring any thought that he could cause any problems for New Zealand. He has only just broken through though - another year or two and he could be significantly better. Remember how Bowe was when he first played for Ireland?

thebaz

good team - this is not a test for taking chances

twinytwo

GerM wrote: »

He's not really but he's a calm player who is more mobile than he gets credit for and has very good hands. Has played there a fair bit in his career including this season. Expect him to just keep things under control there and to still be buried into all the rucks. They could have easily put Messam there but declined.

lets hope not and he drops as much ball as last week:D

GerM

chris85 wrote: »

I dont like the call of Wallace at 12 either as do so many. He is not at this standard, Ferg would be suited more in there. Or give Cave a shot I would be happier with either choice.

He has played NZ before and done very well. He's probably playing better now than he was then. Right call and he's better at 12 than McFadden by a distance. If we're looking to make things tick and use our wingers, he's the right man to have in the side.

Fishooks12

Clearlier wrote: »

Loughney went backwards very, very quickly at scrumtime. The difference in the tighthead side of the Irish scrum between Fitzpatrick going off and him coming on was immense and I was very relieved that we went to uncontested scrums.

It was his first cap. Saying he's not up to the standard on the back of that is jumping the gun

I simply don't buy the argument about a different defensive system (if you can point me to a quote by one of the coaches about changing the system I'll change my mind).

You don't need a quote, you can see the difference. In the first test we employed a bad drift and stood off the AB's. In the second test we had a much quicker line speed and made a conscious effort to put a man between the tackled player to stop the offloads.

Murray's passing - I don't see how it could be argued that he's as quick as Reddan at moving the ball away from the breakdown but that in itself doesn't mean that it's not good enough. I think that he just takes that quarter second out of the ball that the backline really need. It's not an insurmountable challenge but he should be working on this aspect of his game non-stop for the next 18 months to hope to get it to the right level.

Exactly, it's his speed rather than the accuracy of his passing that's the problem. He actually has a very good pass

On Zebo I thought it was instructive that when I went on to youtube to see if I could see any more of him the majority of his highlights show him running down the wing. There's nothing wrong with that per se but you expect more of a winger. The good ones go looking for work and support their fullback. I didn't see much evidence of this from Zebo. That said, I thought he did ok in the first test without ever inspiring any thought that he could cause any problems for New Zealand. He has only just broken through though - another year or two and he could be significantly better. Remember how Bowe was when he first played for Ireland?

He made our only line break in the first test by coming off his wing and taking a brilliant line. I agree that he's not the finished article but I think he should have gotten another shot during the tour as McFadden or Trimble haven't been great

irishbucsfan

Our change in defensive system from the first test to the second test mimiced our change from the first to second week of the 6 Nations.

It might be that Kiss decided that a slower break would suit the inexperienced center partnerships better. Or perhaps having a slower break all round might have been considered less risky in a first up match. Either way it failed both times and the change saw a very definite improvement (and let's remember that improvement in the 6 Nation's saw Earls introduced to 13, so I'm not convinced its him by a long way).

cp

Otacon wrote: »

???

Link?

Yeah apologies, knew I'd read it somewhere, but also knew that could've just been on here...

Zzippy wrote: »

Its on a trial basis for the Autumn internationals, but I would imagine it will be implemented full time after that.

http://www.irb.com/newsmedia/mediazone/pressrelease/newsid=2062222.html#irb+unions+sanction+global+law+trials

Didn't realize it was just a trial. What on earth can be gained from "trialling it"?? its not like a law change to the playing side of things that might have unintended consequences..

thomond2006

Some of the Paddy Wallace hate here is unbelievable. He should have been in the original tour party, his form towards the end of the season was great.

cp

Deleted User wrote: »

7 minutes is barely long enough to have 2 scrums and a penalty kick, let alone cover yourself in glory.

not suggesting he should thrown on the scrap heap, far from it, I'd love to see him getting a start in November. In fact, I've been calling for his inclusion for a while..

But at the same time I'd be worried that his cameo in the first test left him with plenty to worry about regarding his prospects at this level. I'm thinking in particular about his lack of top line speed, speed of reaction for the try, and just plain pace in the jersey pulling incident...

Having said that he absolutely deserves another crack at it, just maybe not Saturday..

danthefan

Imo Wallace starting is certainly the right call.