Ireland Tour to New Zealand 2012 Discussion thread

Clegg

Gilroy has just played in a Heineken Cup final and performed well. He's been one of the best young Irish players to come through in recent years. Kearney was picked ahead of Gilroy and Zebo during the 6 Nations squad selection but he's been dropped for no reason now.

I'm not bashing Zebo but Kearney and Gilroy have both had more impressive seasons.

TheKeenMachine

Did Kidney not say he would take Heineken Cup performances into account when picking the team? You'd think Wallace and McLaughlin would deserve places if so

Fishooks12

TheKeenMachine wrote: »

Did Kidney not say he would take Heineken Cup performances into account when picking the team? You'd think Wallace and McLaughlin would deserve places if so

Wallace deserves to be in but who would McLaughlin slot in ahead of?

irishbucsfan

Here we are just a couple of days after Irish rugby took center stage in the Heineken cup final and Declan has to go and suck the wind out of our sails.

We have a game plan that hasn't worked in 3 years. A summer together is the perfect opportunity to get something going that would have us playing closer to our potential. That looks very unlikely based on this selection.

People say that New Zealand isn't the place to experiment. It's cowardice like that which is why we demand next to no respect from them. We should play for ourselves and stop putting southern hemisphere sides on a pedestal. Kicking this can down the road in the hopes of a lucky win is pretty pathetic.

.ak

I'm amazed at the fact that D.Kearney or Gilroy didn't get a look in. Also Madigan.

But such is life. I guess the two best Irish clubs can take joy in their medals and enjoy a hard earned summer break.

TheKeenMachine

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Wallace deserves to be in but who would McLaughlin slot in ahead of?

Not ahead of anyone but as an extra back row; we're a bit light on cover.

Fishooks12

TheKeenMachine wrote: »

Not ahead of anyone but as an extra back row; we're a bit light on cover.

Ya I'd agree

totallegend

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Ya I'd agree

Yes, but Henry ahead of McLaughlin

Cover at 6; Ferris, O'Brien, O'Mahony, Ryan
Cover at 7; O'Brien, O'Mahony (sort of)

We need a 7, so as well as McLaughlin has played this season, Henry should get the nod.

Podge_irl

Henry is already going as long as he proves his fitness.

Seph503

I'm quite surprised we're taking Ferris.

The man was off his feet Saturday (I was at the game and he went down for attention from the physios a number of times) and still doesn't look fit and now we're going to ask him to play 3 tests against the All Blacks!!

CatFromHue

I added up ESPN's stats for Wallace and D'arcy.



Wallace played 6 games (Clermont x 2, Leicester, Munster, Edin, and Leinster) whereas as D'arcy played 8 (Montpellier x2, Glasgow x2, Bath, Cardiff, Clermont, Ulster). I only included games were they started i.e. D'arcy did come on against Bath at home.

They probably just tell us what we know already i.e. D'arcy is a better defender but Wallace is a more expansive attacker. Wallace would be more like a second 5/8 as they say in NZ than D'arcy who would be more typical of a 12.

These are ESPN's stats so all errors are theirs :pac:

fitz

totallegend wrote: »

Yes, but Henry ahead of McLaughlin

Cover at 6; Ferris, O'Brien, O'Mahony, Ryan
Cover at 7; O'Brien, O'Mahony (sort of)

We need a 7, so as well as McLaughlin has played this season, Henry should get the nod.

Personally, I'd have Kev ahead of POM.

6: Starter - Ferris. Cover - SOB, Kev, Ryan
7: Starter - SOB. Cover - Henry
8: Starter - Heaslip. Cover - SOB, Henry

Kev also gives you cover in the second row. If Paulie is out, we could start Tuohy and Ryan, with Kev and Henry on the bench, giving us pretty comfortable depth.
Thinking about it, there's serious grunt in that kind of selection.

padraig.od

cgpg5 wrote: »

What does Kevin McLauchlin have to do? Thought Wallace was immense for ulster too and have been very impressed by Gilroy. Won't even bother criticising the Doc selection he'll probably still be selected when he's 40!

McLaughlin is unlucky he's a blindside behind two of the best in Europe (SOB & Ferris), thats all.

molloyjh

Tox56 wrote: »

Experimenting in matches against New Zealand isn't going to happen, according to Kidney.

Nor will it happen in the AIs because of seeding. Nor will it happen in the 2013 6 Nations as it's our bread and butter. Then we'll be 2 years since the RWC and 18 months on from a poor 6 Nations and we'll still be in the same boat that is getting us nowhere.

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Basing selection on one game is a bit silly. Kearney is a good player but Zebo has much more potential

The Zebo/Kearney argument to me is quite simple...

Kearney was ahead of Zebo in the pecking order in March. Since then Zebo has done well in a couple of Rabo games. Kearney on the other hand didn't look at all out of place in a HEC Final playing for the best team in Europe. There haven't been, to my knowledge, any Ireland camps since the end of the 6 Nations. So the only way Zebo could have leap-frogged Kearney was on the back of those Rabo games.

The subjective part is therefore a simple "does that seem fair" question. To me I don't think it does. Zebo didn't show anything extra in his games for Munster post-6Ns that we had not already seen from him and Kearney didn't take a dip in form. So where is the logical explanation for the change in selection?


Beyond that I'm actually concerned that Fez is included in this squad. He obviously wasn't fit on Saturday. He shouldn't be there. Plus we have no dedicated FB cover. What happens if Kearney is injured? I don't think Drico is 100% and won't (shouldn't) be there for 3 Tests. So if Kearney is injured and we leave Drico out of one game we could have to re-jig a lot of our back-line to suit. Earls is never going to be a FB. He's either a winger or a centre and we need to stop tossing him all around the back line. We also need a viable back-up to Kearney. With Jones' injury record we can't rely on him so instead Kidney is going to ignore the issue.

We are at the mid-point of what could be a truly glorious 9 days for Leinster Rugby and a couple of days after a huge day for Irish rugby. We have proven this season that Irish rugby is in seriously rude health. And yet DK still manages to put a downer on the whole thing. :mad:

mystic86

god I'm awful sick of the leinster bias on boards

mystic86

does anybody know the kick-off times for these games?

Seph503

mystic86 wrote: »

god I'm awful sick of the leinster bias on boards

Nothing to do with Leinster bias, read the last post on the previous page, sums up the matter quite well IMO.

.ak

mystic86 wrote: »

god I'm awful sick of the leinster bias on boards

? I haven't seen any...

Just seen a few posters saying they'd like to see Gilroy, Zebo or DK go to NZ. They're all entitled to their opinions, as they're three great wingers that deserve a few Irish caps.


DK is the best out of the three though.

CIARAN_BOYLE

mystic86 wrote: »

does anybody know the kick-off times for these games?

I think they are on at 6:45 in the morning not sure though

totallegend

mystic86 wrote: »

god I'm awful sick of the leinster bias on boards

Whatever bias exists doesn't go beyond the boards and certainly doesn't affect team performance or selection. Most people are saying that Gilroy should be ahead of Zebo. How exactly is that Leinster bias, btw?

I'm sick of Kidney's Munster bias, which is holding back the national team from reaching its potential and is slightly more damaging than a few random guys on an internet forum.

Do you see the difference?

GerM

mystic86 wrote: »

god I'm awful sick of the leinster bias on boards

To be honest, it has become somewhat monotonous but it's simply representative of where things are within Irish rugby right now. If someone can come up with reasonable arguments to the contrary, they should be able to show up any bias for what it is.

.ak

molloyjh wrote: »

The Zebo/Kearney argument to me is quite simple...

Kearney was ahead of Zebo in the pecking order in March. Since then Zebo has done well in a couple of Rabo games. Kearney on the other hand didn't look at all out of place in a HEC Final playing for the best team in Europe. There haven't been, to my knowledge, any Ireland camps since the end of the 6 Nations. So the only way Zebo could have leap-frogged Kearney was on the back of those Rabo games.

The subjective part is therefore a simple "does that seem fair" question. To me I don't think it does. Zebo didn't show anything extra in his games for Munster post-6Ns that we had not already seen from him and Kearney didn't take a dip in form. So where is the logical explanation for the change in selection?


Beyond that I'm actually concerned that Fez is included in this squad. He obviously wasn't fit on Saturday. He shouldn't be there. Plus we have no dedicated FB cover. What happens if Kearney is injured? I don't think Drico is 100% and won't (shouldn't) be there for 3 Tests. So if Kearney is injured and we leave Drico out of one game we could have to re-jig a lot of our back-line to suit. Earls is never going to be a FB. He's either a winger or a centre and we need to stop tossing him all around the back line. We also need a viable back-up to Kearney. With Jones' injury record we can't rely on him so instead Kidney is going to ignore the issue.

We are at the mid-point of what could be a truly glorious 9 days for Leinster Rugby and a couple of days after a huge day for Irish rugby. We have proven this season that Irish rugby is in seriously rude health. And yet DK still manages to put a downer on the whole thing. :mad:

Great post.

The only thing I don't agree on is I think Earls is a fine FB. Now that he's developed a lovely offload I'd love to see him given another shot there...

IMO he's a better FB than a centre.

Teferi

mystic86 wrote: »

god I'm awful sick of the leinster bias on boards

I don't know if anyone informed you but Leinster just defended their HC title successfully there over the weekend. No biggie like but it stands to reason that most 50/50 calls will go to Leinster or Ulster over Munster.

As it stands, Kearney and Gilroy are more rounded players than Zebo.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Backs
6 Leinster
4 Munster
2 Ulster
1 AN Other

Forwards
5 Leinster
4 Ulster
4 Munster
3 AN Other

Total
11 Leinster
7 Munster
7 Ulster
4 AN Other

.ak

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Backs
6 Leinster
4 Munster
2 Ulster
1 AN Other

Forwards
5 Leinster
5 Ulster
3 Munster
3 AN Other

Total
11 Leinster
7 Munster
7 Ulster
4 AN Other

Far too many AN Other's there. Who do they think they are? DK has too much bias for AN Others. Seriously, what silverware the the An Others win this year? They were anonymous. :mad:

molloyjh

.ak wrote: »

Great post.

The only thing I don't agree on is I think Earls is a fine FB. Now that he's developed a lovely offload I'd love to see him given another shot there...

IMO he's a better FB than a centre.

Sorry, what I meant to get across was that he's not going to be an option there long-term regardless of ability. Deccie has already said he reckons Earls to be the successor to the 13 jersey. So he won't ever be a FB for Ireland (or Munster from the looks of it). We need someone who will actually play FB regularly to cover Rob.

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Backs
6 Leinster
4 Munster
2 Ulster
1 AN Other

Forwards
5 Leinster
5 Ulster
3 Munster
3 AN Other

Total
11 Leinster
7 Munster
7 Ulster
4 AN Other

Tbh there's very few selections that we could really argue. Zebo maybe, Fez from a pure well-being point of view. The selection of the squad pretty much looks after itself. An argument for a few additional players could be made more than anything I reckon.

ray jay

Money must be tight for the IRFU to be so conservative with the number of players they're bringing on tour. The lack of outhalf cover, especially given Kidney's habit of moving Sexton to 12, is particularly worrying.

.ak

molloyjh wrote: »

Tbh there's very few selections that we could really argue. Zebo maybe, Fez from a pure well-being point of view. The selection of the squad pretty much looks after itself. An argument for a few additional players could be made more than anything I reckon.

Not wanting to kick the hornet's nest or anything, but ROG shouldn't be on that team sheet. Madigan or Keatley should be there.

Tox56

No Paddy Wallace is the big one for me

Fireball07

It's all a bit of a joke really, but I can't say I expected otherwise. The worst thing is the size of the squad really, we're going to have some players dead on their feet by the end of the tour.


I really don't think Gilroy/Kearney/Zebo is the biggest worry (I'd have brought Kearney for full-back cover myself), surely not bringing Madigan is a bigger thing. Or some other out-half. If ROG plays like he has been recently, if he gets onto the field, he'll be slaughered by some crazy Antipodean back row!

Elsewhere...Ferris should really pull out of the squad, I don't want him to be crippled. And POC really shouldn't go either, it'll probably just aggravate the injury, he's unlikely to be 100%. Send Toner instead.