Ireland Tour to New Zealand 2012 Discussion thread

Luckycharm

CatFromHue wrote: »

Wilkinson made his debut in the previous 5 Nations to that tour.

Yep off the bench as a winger - he got some proper gametime on the Tour of Hell.

Why would people prefer to see ROG instead of Madigan in NZ? NZ don't kick the ball away too often last time ROG was there he got himself sinbinned when we only had 14 men on the pitch after Heaslips brainfart. Ironically it was making a tackle off the ball (one of his few tackles). He cost us a win down there before when Mcallister ran over him.
Like Wales I imagine they would give him the freedom of the park to run ball in hand so McCaw etc can gobble him up and then get stripped of the ball. His kicking is not as good as it once was and kicking to NZs back 3 is sucidial- madigan at least would offer them a threat, he is small enough but well able to tackle. I don't see what we got to lose.

ray jay

molloyjh wrote: »

I'd pick Madigan for the bench over ROG for Leinster. But I'd pick ROG over Madigan for Ireland. Different teams with different approaches facing very different opposition. It is a step up to international level, for as much as that can often be used as an excuse. And I just don't think Madigan is quite there yet.

The way I see it is that O'Gara is on a downward path whereas Madigan (or whatever other young player is being left out of the squad in favour of one of Kidney's old reliables) is getting better and better with each match. Some test experience would only spur on that improvement.

However as someone else already said, Kidney's game plan is anathema to Madigan's style. With just a year left before we (hopefully) get a new Irish coach, he can afford to be patient.

justsomebloke

Only getting to see the squad now, and oh sweet jesus this tour has disaster written all over it.

a 2 match test with 2 mid week games with a bigger squad for development would have been a much better alternative then what is on the cards now

bossa_nova

The selection of Ferris really strikes a nerve for me for some reason. The guy is so valuable to us and the fact that he is being ask to tour when hes been playing through the pain barrier for the last few games is seriously concerning especially since we have so much depth in the back row.

rrpc

I don't understand the reasoning being made about Madigan being too young or inexperienced. Murray was starting for Ireland when there were two more experienced SHs available at the time, Zebo is being fast-tracked with even less experience than Madigan.

But we're travelling with three scrum halfs and only two out halfs, one of whom has shown some of the worst form of his career as recently as a couple of weeks ago. It's not as though Madigan's form has been dipping. Every time he's come on the pitch he's shown an improvement, he was instrumental in the two tries Leinster scored in the last ten minutes on Saturday.

In terms of impact, he's hugely more impressive than ROG and can up the tempo at will. Perhaps his kicking isn't as assured, but he can still give a good account of himself when called on.

My biggest disappointment with these selections is not who's been picked, but what the selections tell us about the mindset. We're not looking to the future, we're not taking the opportunity to build a squad with genuine tried and tested depth and we're not going to in the forseeable future.

We've just written off another year, one that we'll never get back.

Podge_irl

We don't actually have that much depth at the moment with Munster's injuries.

I'm not really in agreement with the 'Ferris shouldn't travel' group anyway. Its a three test tour against the world champions - I think that's pretty important. Ferris is likely never going to be fully fit and I'd be amazed if he doesn't retire by his early thirties. I don't think being rested or not for a summer tour will make much different to that. I say use one of our best players while we still have him available. Also, I imagine if you asked him, he would be distinctly unhappy about the prospect of being left at home.

bamboozle

Podge_irl wrote: »

We don't actually have that much depth at the moment with Munster's injuries.

I'm not really in agreement with the 'Ferris shouldn't travel' group anyway. Its a three test tour against the world champions - I think that's pretty important. Ferris is likely never going to be fully fit and I'd be amazed if he doesn't retire by his early thirties. I don't think being rested or not for a summer tour will make much different to that. I say use one of our best players while we still have him available. Also, I imagine if you asked him, he would be distinctly unhappy about the prospect of being left at home.

6 weeks at home with his feet up allowing muscle tissue & various other body parts heal and re-strengthen as opposed to going on a gruelling 3 test tour to NZ. No arguing what is best for the player and what is best for the team. His welfare should be put first.

Podge_irl

Of course his welfare should be put first. And it will be - there are plenty of doctors and physios involved with Ireland who will ensure that. But I'm pretty sure we're never going to see Ferris 100% fit again so no point waiting for it. I'm not really of the opinion that these tests are less important then the 6N - I think a win over NZ would be absolutely huge and we need players of the calibre of Ferris to have a chance.

rrpc

Podge_irl wrote: »

We don't actually have that much depth at the moment with Munster's injuries.

We have quite a bit of depth in most positions.

Front row: pretty much all our depth is travelling (if Court is fit), although there's a case to be made for bringing the Ulster young 'uns.
Second Row: leaving Toner and McCarthy at home - Why give McCarthy a call up during the 6N and then abandon him?
Back Row: McLaughlin

Half backs: Taking all our available SHs (with maybe one exception) and leaving Keatley and Madigan at home
Centres: Paddy Wallace: Just been abused all his international career.
Wings: Gilroy and Kearney Jr.
FB: Cupboard is bare, but travelling backs and Kearney jr. are capable of filling in.

Why we can't bring some of these guys and make a proper fist of checking them out in a real test.

I noticed that Deccie was quick to point out the huge gap between HEC rugby and International test rugby.

So what's he basing his selections on then?

Cpt_Blackbeard

Yet another storm in a teacup when an Irish squad is named. :rolleyes:

The Zebo decision was a tight call, but I'm happy with it. He has shown more (tries tries tries) in a worse team than his main competitors. He looks the most dangerous going forward and has the best kicking game of the 3 pretenders.

Kearney looks the safest player, as he is solid in both attack and defense, but he doesn't offer anything special. He'll struggle to become anything more than the infamous "Rob's brother" on the world stage.

Gilroy has impressed and I wouldn't have batted an eyelid were he selected. He looks a similar standard in attack and defense as Zebo, but he doesn't have the same kicking game or try-scoring record as Zebo. Close call, but a a player shouldn't be punished for being a member of a poor team - ask the Connacht lads.

After that, I'm pretty happy with the squad; its about as forward thinking as we could have realistically hoped for. Its probably the best Kidney squad in a while and it shows that he is (very) slowly but surely willing to look at new and inform players. Wallace and Madigan should have probably been on the plane and DOC is very lucky to be involved, but fück it; this is as good as it gets.

Tox56

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Yet another storm in a teacup when an Irish squad is named. :rolleyes:

The Zebo decision was a tight call, but I'm happy with it. He has shown more (tries tries tries) in a worse team than his main competitors. He looks the most dangerous going forward and has the best kicking game of the 3 pretenders.

Kearney looks the safest player, as he is solid in both attack and defense, but he doesn't offer anything special. He'll struggle to become anything more than the infamous "Rob's brother" on the world stage.

Gilroy has impressed and I wouldn't have batted an eyelid were he selected. He looks a similar standard in attack and defense as Zebo, but he doesn't have the same kicking game or try-scoring record as Zebo. Close call, but a a player shouldn't be punished for being a member of a poor team - ask the Connacht lads.

After that, I'm pretty happy with the squad; its about as forward thinking as we could have realistically hoped for. Its probably the best Kidney squad in a while and it shows that he is (very) slowly but surely willing to look at new and inform players. Wallace and Madigan should have probably been on the plane and DOC is very lucky to be involved, but fück it; this is as good as it gets.

Well that's the problem, I agree with you about this being the best we can hope for, but it really isn't forward thinking at all.

It's a team that will likely be flogged to death over 3 matches, possibly scraping one against an All Black B team and everyone can forever say Kidney is the coach that beat the All Blacks. God forbid that might even get him a new contract.

Still I agree there's no point trying, he'll pick who he wants.

Teferi

If Kidney scrapes a win on this tour will that guarantee him a new contract?

It probably will.

leftleg

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

He'll struggle to become anything more than the infamous "Rob's brother" on the world stage.

That's quite a pessimistic crystal ball you've got there captain;

Fishooks12

Teferi wrote: »

If Kidney scrapes a win on this tour will that guarantee him a new contract?

It probably will.

Probably, then if you think about it there's a chance we'll probably win all our AI's

He could have a new contract before the 6n's

Ron1

New coach required - please IRFU offer it to Joe Schmidt. We are wasting our talented players under Kidney. Im not expecting Grand Slams every year but games against Wales at home and England have to be gimmees.

CiaranMT

So very deflating, Deccy.

irishbucsfan

Some people have very short memories.

O'Gara would be a candidate for worst performance of the season after that half-arsed pathetic showing against the Ospreys. He actually showed more agility than he ever did with ball in hand when he jumped out of the way of that tackle before they scored their last try under the posts.

I have no idea what ROG supposedly brings any more that would benefit us in any way against the All-Blacks. I'd prefer Keatley to him.

If it was O'Gara of old no question, but that player is long gone based on this season.

Coburger

GerM wrote: »

Not so sure. We've only the two games against SA and Argentina in the autumn. DK won't want to make any changes with these being the last games ahead of the WC seeding cut off. I would think that management has earmarked the 2013 summer tour as the opportunity to give some game time to the likes of Madigan, Toner, Gilroy, Kearney, Zebo, Sherry etc.

A shame that England and Wales are willing to give youth a shot yet Ireland can't.

shuffol

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Some people have very short memories.

O'Gara would be a candidate for worst performance of the season after that half-arsed pathetic showing against the Ospreys. He actually showed more agility than he ever did with ball in hand when he jumped out of the way of that tackle before they scored their last try under the posts.

I have no idea what ROG supposedly brings any more that would benefit us in any way against the All-Blacks. I'd prefer Keatley to him.

If it was O'Gara of old no question, but that player is long gone based on this season.

Dont like this argument of not selecting Madigan as he might have a poor game when we're almost certain that ROG will have a poor game, he's just too easy to defend against. Hate the microscopic scrutiny that new players get and experienced ones are exempt from too. Reading the indo's match report after the Munster-Ospreys game Mike Sherrys performance was frequently highlighted but not a word was written on ROG's cameo.
My fear is that we'll see ROG start one of the tests with Mcfadden at 12, he'll probably get hammered all day and then have it used as a stick to beat him with and as reason to stick with D'arcy.

rrpc

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Yet another storm in a teacup when an Irish squad is named. :rolleyes:

The Zebo decision was a tight call, but I'm happy with it. He has shown more (tries tries tries) in a worse team than his main competitors. He looks the most dangerous going forward and has the best kicking game of the 3 pretenders.

Kearney looks the safest player, as he is solid in both attack and defense, but he doesn't offer anything special. He'll struggle to become anything more than the infamous "Rob's brother" on the world stage.

You're comparing apples and oranges. Leinster vary their attack and wingers aren't usually the try scorers the way they play. All the tries in the final were scored by forwards and Healy scored the one try in the semi.

I have no argument with Zebo being selected, the problem is that we are not selecting more young players to bolster the squad and develop some depth.

All the fresh selections were enforced:
Sherry because Varley is injured and Jerry is retired
Henry is in (if fit) because Wallace is retired
Zebo for FitzGerald
FitzPatrick as TH cover
Marshall may make it if Boss doesn't
Cave and P. Wallace are a straight swap (in every respect).

All enforced through injury or retirement. Paddy Wallace is the only real change and seeing as he spent the last few years holding tackle bags and getting splinters in his bum, I'm glad for him on that level.

Dave Kearney got called up during the 6N and got dropped without explanation or any meaningful game time, Mike McCarthy also used and abused. It's all just short termism and especially noticeable when these games can not actually have any negative affect on our world ranking.

fitz

Talk of Kidney finally coming around to selecting on form is crazy.
Sherry, Tuohy, and Zebo are only in because of injuries, and Fitzpatrick is in because the England game showed that if Mike Ross gets a knock, we'd be screwed.
Once again, players are only brought in when he's forced by injury or a a player being completely handed their arse. Only provincial bias can justify these selections as "close calls" and the "not HEC starters" excuse for players that haven't been picked in the past, no conveniently doesn't apply to Deccie's mates.

Fishhook12 nailed the starting team a few pages back. It's so predictable, and anyone who thinks he's going to change, or that the way the team is being told to play is going to improve, is just being naive at this point. Kidney has shown for three years that he will not change. There's no point in getting wound up about it, we just have to put up with it.

its_phil

.ak wrote: »

Madigan would've caused them havoc.

There are very few players in world rugby who can cause havoc to the All Blacks. I refuse to believe any uncapped out-half would.

I'm not discrediting Madigan because he is a fine young player who has a future with Ireland but to say he'd cause "havoc" against the All Blacks this coming summer is quite an over statement.

Shelflife

My main gripe is with the whole tour set up, as was outlined earlier a two test 2 midweek tour would have been way more beneficial.I cant see the logic at all with a 3 test tour.

We have little to gain by bringing the old stock yet again to market,

Why not bring Lochnane, Toner, Marshall, Gilroy ,o Halloran and Madigan instead of what we have brought we might find out if they are up to it or not.

Ive said it before Valient effort in test one, hockied in test 2, and a patched up team hockied in test 3 and we will learn nothing new.

Pity really.

thebaz

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Probably, then if you think about it there's a chance we'll probably win all our AI's

He could have a new contract before the 6n's

Kidneys current role is similar to steve Staunton old role in the soccer - he is bringing us nowhere , is unimaginative with his stale selections - e.g. DOC

please please will Schmidt takeover , it will hurt leinster , but good for Ireland

Ludikrus

I know these games are on SKY but anyone know if RTE or someone will show a recording later?

wp_rathead

There is something wrong when we can go from having the ecstasy of an All Ireland HEC Final (with probably the best HEC Side in the tournaments history) to the depression of an Irish Squad Announcement... it doesn't add up..

How can Madigan be left at home and ROG brought, it is insanity (one of many ridiculous calls)
Please let someone in the media point this out
I only heard the squad announcement on the radio there and no one seems to be shouting that the "Emperor has no Clothes" - all seems very cosy between this management and the media

d-gal

Don't know why people are giving out about McLaughlin. He has Ferris, SOB, POM ahead of him who are far better players than him. Henry and Ryan can also cover the position. Then there is Muldoon who has played far better than him this season (if people actually watched Connacht regularly this year they would know that).

It's one of the few calls Kidney got right this year and if anything Muldoon should be next on the list. He will be dying for revenge against NZ after the arm break and he is playing fantastic rugby this year. He pretty much made a fool of England's captain Robshaw on 2 occasions this year

irishbucsfan

its_phil wrote: »

.ak wrote: »

Madigan would've caused them havoc.

There are very few players in world rugby who can cause havoc to the All Blacks. I refuse to believe any uncapped out-half would.

I'm not discrediting Madigan because he is a fine young player who has a future with Ireland but to say he'd cause "havoc" against the All Blacks this coming summer is quite an over statement.

Ah would you ever calm down. They're just a rugby team who haven't played together since November and never under their current coach.

You'd swear they were demi-gods the way the Irish go on about them some times. And the All Blacks love it. The best skills coach I've ever played under used to bemoan the lack of self belief in Irish players. We put the All Blacks on this ridiculous pedestal some times.

fitz

d-gal wrote: »

Don't know why people are giving out about McLaughlin. He has Ferris, SOB, POM ahead of him who are far better players than him. Henry and Ryan can also cover the position. Then there is Muldoon who has played far better than him this season (if people actually watched Connacht regularly this year they would know that).

It's one of the few calls Kidney got right this year and if anything Muldoon should be next on the list. He will be dying for revenge against NZ after the arm break and he is playing fantastic rugby this year. He pretty much made a fool of England's captain Robshaw on 2 occasions this year

Pull the other one...
You either haven't watched him for Leinster, or you don't know what it is your seeing.

Tox56

d-gal wrote: »

Don't know why people are giving out about McLaughlin. He has Ferris, SOB, POM ahead of him who are far better players than him. Henry and Ryan can also cover the position. Then there is Muldoon who has played far better than him this season (if people actually watched Connacht regularly this year they would know that).

It's one of the few calls Kidney got right this year and if anything Muldoon should be next on the list. He will be dying for revenge against NZ after the arm break and he is playing fantastic rugby this year. He pretty much made a fool of England's captain Robshaw on 2 occasions this year

Why do Connacht fans always say that, I do watch Connacht, and still think McLaughlin can consider himself unlucky. Muldoon hasn't played at the same level of competition this year, and although he has been impressive in the matches he has played, he is a big fish in a small pond.

I think it's a toss up as to who is next in line, but you have to put it into context.