Ireland Tour to New Zealand 2012 Discussion thread

GerM

McLaughlin will never be involved to a significant degree at international level unfortunately, I think. He's similar to Jennings in so far as he's the type of player that makes Leinster tick but he's not someone that will offer a host of options at international level. He doesn't possess the carrying or offloading that some do in addition to the tackling and work rate. He's at about the same level as Henry and is arguably more effective but doesn't have the ability to play across the back row. He was actually a very versatile player in his younger days when he first came on the scene with Leinster, appearing at 6, 8 and lock but those days seem to have passed now.

He'd be a great A team captain for Ireland and should be involved in and around the senior squad. Most impressively, for me, is his discipline. He's a flanker that hits rucks all day and, in the last two seasons, the stats reflect that he has only conceded penalties in 2 of his last 11 HEC appearances. Never been carded for Leinster either in 75 appearances which, for a work horse flanker, is quality.

Banbridgeman

profitius wrote: »

Banbridgeman wrote: »

For me McLaughlin has performed better than POM against better opposition. POM has had some great games but is overhyped in my opinion. For what it's worth I think Dominic Ryan will be better than him if he can stay injury free. I also think Henderson is already better than him

POM has had a great season. Deserves his place 100% and anyone who questions his place there should watch a little more rugby.

I am saying that he doesn't deserve a place ahead of McLaughlin who has been the second best 6 after Ferris.

Fishooks12

GerM wrote: »

McLaughlin will never be involved to a significant degree at international level unfortunately, I think. He's similar to Jennings in so far as he's the type of player that makes Leinster tick but he's not someone that will offer a host of options at international level. He doesn't possess the carrying or offloading that some do in addition to the tackling and work rate. He's at about the same level as Henry and is arguably more effective but doesn't have the ability to play across the back row. He was actually a very versatile player in his younger days when he first came on the scene with Leinster, appearing at 6, 8 and lock but those days seem to have passed now.

He'd be a great A team captain for Ireland and should be involved in and around the senior squad. Most impressively, for me, is his discipline. He's a flanker that hits rucks all day and, in the last two seasons, the stats reflect that he has only conceded penalties in 2 of his last 11 HEC appearances. Never been carded for Leinster either in 75 appearances which, for a work horse flanker, is quality.

Great post

Podge_irl

Grimebox wrote: »

ROG has one bad game against ospreys and he's getting slated as past it. He shouldn't be flying for development purpoes though

I will never, until the day I die, understand the free ride ROG gets. He has been middling to poor all season with one or two good games.

The Ospreys performance however was one of the worst fly half performances I've seen in a long time and his complete lack of respect for the jersey as a senior player just made it worse.

Teferi

Grimebox wrote: »

ROG has one bad game against ospreys and he's getting slated as past it.

You're right. He had one bad game...and the one before that...and the one before that...and the one before that.

Woeful season by his own usually high standards.

Fireball07

Banbridgeman wrote: »

I am saying that he doesn't deserve a place ahead of McLaughlin who has been the second best 6 after Ferris.

You also said that Henderson is already better than him which is lunacy...


How many games has Henderson played for Ulster? 3 or 4??

Heroditas

its_phil wrote: »

I'm not discrediting Madigan because he is a fine young player who has a future with Ireland but to say he'd cause "havoc" against the All Blacks this coming summer is quite an over statement.

He'd offer something different though and they might not know what to expect.
They know exactly what they will get from ROG.
All they need to do is let their 10 drift out and then let their centres get right up in our centres faces as ROG flings a relatively slow pass out to them. They know he won't make a break and their 9 can cover this remote possibility.
It's either ROG crabbing and then passing or punting down field towards their wingers. Easy stuff.
Madigan has a very good break and is a relatively strong runner who can break tackles. He can find gaps and has a far quicker pass than Sexton - something that can be very useful depending on how our backs line up.

Fishooks12

Banbridgeman wrote: »

I am saying that he doesn't deserve a place ahead of McLaughlin who has been the second best 6 after Ferris.

In your opinion

In most other peoples opinions POM has been immense this year, has the raw potential to be a brilliant international and is a far more versatile player able to play anywhere in the back row

Germs post explains it well

Great time for McGloughlin all the same, love him as a player

Banbridgeman

Fireball07 wrote: »

Banbridgeman wrote: »

I am saying that he doesn't deserve a place ahead of McLaughlin who has been the second best 6 after Ferris.

You also said that Henderson is already better than him which is lunacy...


How many games has Henderson played for Ulster? 3 or 4??

I've been watching Henderson for years and I reckon he'll match Ferris. No disrespect to POM

Podge_irl

If Ireland were playing some midweek games then McLaughlin would be an excellent addition to the squad. As it is he plays in a position where we have the most depth and doesn't offer the versatility to be a sub.

My gast is truly flabbered by those penalty stats. He really is an exceptionally intelligent player.

GerM

Fishooks12 wrote: »

The Peter O Mahoney hate is baffling

Whilst I'm not a massive fan of POM personally due to his niggly nature and propensity for looking for handbags, he's a class act as a player. If he can develop a level of physicality to something in the same bracket as the current Irish back row, he'll be an international for the next decade.

Suits

Fireball07 wrote: »

What do you have against Earls?? He might have had a poor game against Wales in the WC, a lot of people did, but since then he's been very good, for club and country. I'd certainly much prefer to him to McFadden on the wing, and I'd definitely have him ahead of Zebo.

Kidney has made lots of questionable decisions but picking Earls is not one of them.

He has been sub standard all his international career and has only played well against giants such as the USA, Canada etc. He was rubbish in the warms ups for the world cup and rubbish in the 6 nations. He is always out of position in defence and is a massive target for attacking teams to run at. He only plays well or reasonably well against teams like the Dragons, Aironi etc and is average against the other Rabo teams and out of his depth against Ulster, Ospreys and Leinster. He may be good in broken field with the ball but he has been at fault for a lot of tries Ireland have conceded.
It seems we plugged one Munster made defensive weakness at 10 with Sexton and Munster throw us another with Earls...:mad:

POM has had a great season. Deserves his place 100% and anyone who questions his place there should watch a little more rugby.

With that logic we'd be taking AIL and Leinster League 2A 7s if they had a good season...

ROG has one bad game against ospreys and he's getting slated as past it. He shouldn't be flying for development purpoes though

He wont play in the next world cup and warms the bench most games now. So why pick him ahead of younger players who need the chance?

Fishooks12

Banbridgeman wrote: »

I've been watching Henderson for years and I reckon he'll match Ferris. No disrespect to POM

That's all well and good but what has he shown to suggest he's anywhere near the level POM is now?

Fireball07

Banbridgeman wrote: »

I've been watching Henderson for years and I reckon he'll match Ferris. No disrespect to POM

Yeah but as of right now, Henderson isn't an established senior player, POM is. POM deserved an international call-up and didn't look out of place there.

Henderson looks like a class act, and I really hope he can match Ferris but you can't say he's better than POM now, he's not even a regular in the Ulster team yet.

Tox56

Suits wrote: »

Fireball07 wrote: »

What do you have against Earls?? He might have had a poor game against Wales in the WC, a lot of people did, but since then he's been very good, for club and country. I'd certainly much prefer to him to McFadden on the wing, and I'd definitely have him ahead of Zebo.

Kidney has made lots of questionable decisions but picking Earls is not one of them.

He has been sub standard all his international career and has only played well against giants such as the USA, Canada etc. He was rubbish in the warms ups for the world cup and rubbish in the 6 nations. He is always out of position in defence and is a massive target for attacking teams to run at. He only plays well or reasonably well against teams like the Dragons, Aironi etc and is average against the other Rabo teams and out of his depth against Ulster, Ospreys and Leinster. He may be good in broken field with the ball but he has been at fault for a lot of tries Ireland have conceded.
It seems we plugged one Munster made defensive weakness at 10 with Sexton and Munster throw us another with Earls...:mad:

POM has had a great season. Deserves his place 100% and anyone who questions his place there should watch a little more rugby.

With that logic we'd be taking AIL and Leinster League 2A 7s if they had a good season...

ROG has one bad game against ospreys and he's getting slated as past it. He shouldn't be flying for development purpoes though

He wont play in the next world cup and warms the bench most games now. So why pick him ahead of younger players who need the chance?

What did Earls do to offend you? There is no foundation for those statements whatsoever

Fishooks12

Suits wrote: »

He has been sub standard all his international career and has only played well against giants such as the USA, Canada etc. He was rubbish in the warms ups for the world cup and rubbish in the 6 nations. He is always out of position in defence and is a massive target for attacking teams to run at. He only plays well or reasonably well against teams like the Dragons, Aironi etc and is average against the other Rabo teams and out of his depth against Ulster, Ospreys and Leinster. He may be good in broken field with the ball but he has been at fault for a lot of tries Ireland have conceded.
It seems we plugged one Munster made defensive weakness at 10 with Sexton and Munster throw us another with Earls...:mad:



With that logic we'd be taking AIL and Leinster League 2A 7s if they had a good season...



He wont play in the next world cup and warms the bench most games now. So why pick him ahead of younger players who need the chance?

I've highlighted everything that you've said about Keith Earls that's completely untrue

Aidric

I stopped reading when I saw D'Arcy included in the squad.

Fireball07

Yeah I was going to respond but I think Tox and Fishooks have summed it up.



And as for:

With that logic we'd be taking AIL and Leinster League 2A 7s if they had a good season...

I think you know yourself that that is ridiculous. POM has performed excellently at the highest level of club rugby, saying he doesn't deserve a place after his form this season is just wrong. Of course I'd have taken Henry and McLaughlin too.

thomond2006

Aidric wrote: »

I stopped reading when I saw D'Arcy included in the squad.

Who would you have as the 2 inside centres? Wallace and McFadden?

Aidric

Aidric wrote: »

I stopped reading when I saw D'Arcy included in the squad.

Paddy Wallace
Gordan D'Arcy
Fergus McFadden
Luke Fitzgerald (injured)
Kyle Tonetti
Nevin Spence
David McSharry
Danny Barnes


Who might you recommend in his stead that's played any minutes at all this season at inside centre?

Fishooks12

Ya Darcy has to travel, although I'd have the absent Wallace ahead of himself and Ferg

rrpc

there's some awful provincial bile being spouted on here and it's getting rather tiresome. I don't begrudge anyone their place on this squad*, but the real loser here is the future.

We can't keep going with this band aid approach to selection. We're not building for the future, we're not building squad depth and all we're doing is fire-fighting with some out-dated and experimental tools.

People are getting wildly excited about individual players without taking a long hard look at the overall picture. Many of the places on the squad (and on the test XV) are pre-picked, most are in agreement on this. The problem is that we are throwing players in to fix problems that were caused by near-sighted selections in the past and storing up similar problems for the future.

It's a vicious circle that just keeps going on and on and on.

*I don't begrudge ROG his place, he's got experience and a lot to impart to younger players, but it's so short sighted to not have a backup being groomed right now. Whether that's Madigan, Keatley or somebody else is irrelevant, we need them right now, because it's going to be far too late in a years time, even if ROG lasts another two seasons.

Heads in the sand and fingers in our ears...

tolosenc

Why, oh why, am I even vaguely surprised?

Zebo has to be the worst call in that squad, among quite a few bad ones. There are 2 young wingers who played in Twickenham on the weekend that are streets ahead of him.

Aidric wrote: »

I stopped reading when I saw D'Arcy included in the squad.

You got that far? I started gouging my eyes out at O'Callaghan.

CatFromHue

I don't see the major problem with Zebo to be honest as I think himself and Kearney are around the same with both ahead of Gilroy.

None of them are great defenders so that can't be used to distinguish them.

What does stand out for Zebo is his try scoring record. He's got 12 which is more than Kearney (3) and Gilroy (6) combined and makes up a large portion (20%) of Munsters total tries (60) scored this season.

Of course try scoring isn't everything but it's no harm having a guy who knows were the try line out on the wings.

Fishooks12

tolosenc wrote: »

Why, oh why, am I even vaguely surprised?

Zebo has to be the worst call in that squad, among quite a few bad ones. There are 2 young wingers who played in Twickenham on the weekend that are streets ahead of him.



You got that far? I started gouging my eyes out at O'Callaghan.

Oh come on

Worse than DOC? Worse than the omission of Wallace?

Even if you think Kearney and Gilroy are better players, to say they are streets ahead is mad

Podge_irl

I haven't noticed any indications of D. Kearney being a poor defender.

I don't want to begrudge Zebo anything, as I think he is a decent player with a lot of potential. But he's currently a better version of Carr - a player who never saw the slightest hint of interest from Kidney.

I really don't want to believe that Kidney has some kind of Munster bias - I always just put it down to preferring to work with players he knew. But considering the much easier time POM and now Zebo have had of getting into the squad over SOB and the likes of Gilroy, its getting more difficult.

irishbucsfan

Podge_irl wrote: »

I haven't noticed any indications of D. Kearney being a poor defender.

I don't want to begrudge Zebo anything, as I think he is a decent player with a lot of potential. But he's currently a better version of Carr - a player who never saw the slightest hint of interest from Kidney.

Kearney used to be pretty hopeless in defense but he looks much better this season.

I don't know if Zebo is ready for international rugby. He is probably the best going forward but I dont think the rest of his game is good enough yet.

Tox56

Podge_irl wrote: »

I haven't noticed any indications of D. Kearney being a poor defender.

I don't want to begrudge Zebo anything, as I think he is a decent player with a lot of potential. But he's currently a better version of Carr - a player who never saw the slightest hint of interest from Kidney.

I really don't want to believe that Kidney has some kind of Munster bias - I always just put it down to preferring to work with players he knew. But considering the much easier time POM and now Zebo have had of getting into the squad over SOB and the likes of Gilroy, its getting more difficult.

Conor Murray is a month older than Madigan and is now a seasoned veteran, bypassing two international (Leinster) players.

I am in the same boat, I don't fully subscribe to the 'Munster bias' theory, but the evidence is mounting..

Podge_irl

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Kearney used to be pretty hopeless in defense but he looks much better this season.

I don't know if Zebo is ready for international rugby. He is probably the best going forward but I dont think the rest of his game is good enough yet.

I'll put my hand up and say I thought D. Kearney was only in the squad thanks to his brother and was never going to make it. He's had an absolutely fantastic season though and I would have had no qualms if he had to start the final. Whether that's good coaching or just him being a late developer or a combo I dunno but its impressive.

He looks the most "international ready" of the options to me. I think Zebo has the potential to be better (as I've mentioned, just pure gas gives him an advantage) but he has more obvious flaws in his game.

Fishooks12

I've started a new blog dedicated to rugby

Did the first piece on today's squad announcement

http://thedroppingegg.wordpress.com/

Not sure If I'm strictly allowed to do that so Mods feel free to snip!