Ireland Tour to New Zealand 2012 Discussion thread

rrpc

tolosenc wrote: »

Why, oh why, am I even vaguely surprised?

Zebo has to be the worst call in that squad, among quite a few bad ones. There are 2 young wingers who played in Twickenham on the weekend that are streets ahead of him.

You got that far? I started gouging my eyes out at O'Callaghan.

Fortunately or unfortunately, we're rather tight in the locks department, so DOC has to travel. Locky has stopped being a lock for Leinster most of the time and I'm chary of converting players out of position when they've got good in their settled position and Locky has become very, very good at 6.

Unfortunately for him, he's adopted the unsung hero gameplan and people can't see how good he is because he's just so good at it. The fact that people are astounded at his discipine really emphasises that.

Zebo has oodles of talent, but he badly needs a backs coach to iron the wrinkles out. For instance, he's far too fond of running into contact with the ball in one hand and can be a bit blinkered with regard to the offload.

The thing is, as I pointed out above, there's a propensity to throw young players in at the deep end with no gradual preparation. In an ideal world, Zebo would be popping on to the pitch with 20 minutes to go and getting his confidence up towards a starting berth. I'm convinced that Murray's dip in form was caused by his instant immersion in the international cauldron which just drove him into his shell and regressed him. I'm afraid that the band aid approach to selection will damage other young players before they've a chance to get settled.

This tour is the time to gradually get these younger players (Zebo, Madigan, Keatley, D. Kearney, Gilroy, Toner etc.) into the team and have them gain the experience gradually for the time when we will really need them.

Instead of course, we'll get the same old excuses until somebody's injured and then we'll throw another promising young player on the fire.

gally74

rrpc wrote: »

Fortunately or unfortunately, we're rather tight in the locks department, so DOC has to travel

there was a young lad for ulster that scored their only try he's a lock,

But umm he messed up and scored a try on his first trip with Ireland!

In May 2010, Tuohy was named in the 33-man squad for Ireland's summer tour to New Zealand and Australia.[1] He went on to play for Ireland in the non-cap match against the Barbarians on 4 June 2010.[2] On 12 June 2010, Tuohy made his test debut, coming on in the first half of the game against the All Blacks in New Plymouth. Ireland lost the game by 66–28, with Tuohy scoring a try in the first minute after coming on.[3]

CiaranMT

Wallace being left out is criminal for me too. He was one of Ulster's best players at the weekend, and has been for much of the season.

its_phil

Heroditas wrote: »

He'd offer something different though and they might not know what to expect.
They know exactly what they will get from ROG.
All they need to do is let their 10 drift out and then let their centres get right up in our centres faces as ROG flings a relatively slow pass out to them. They know he won't make a break and their 9 can cover this remote possibility.
It's either ROG crabbing and then passing or punting down field towards their wingers. Easy stuff.
Madigan has a very good break and is a relatively strong runner who can break tackles. He can find gaps and has a far quicker pass than Sexton - something that can be very useful depending on how our backs line up.

Yeah I wouldn't mind seeing him there either but I just don't think he'd be as effective as people may like to be. But then again ROG isn't exactly affecting much right now.

rrpc

gally74 wrote: »

there was a young lad for ulster that scored their only try he's a lock,

But umm he messed up and scored a try on his first trip with Ireland!

In May 2010, Tuohy was named in the 33-man squad for Ireland's summer tour to New Zealand and Australia.[1] He went on to play for Ireland in the non-cap match against the Barbarians on 4 June 2010.[2] On 12 June 2010, Tuohy made his test debut, coming on in the first half of the game against the All Blacks in New Plymouth. Ireland lost the game by 66–28, with Tuohy scoring a try in the first minute after coming on.[3]

He's travelling isn't he?

We need four locks minimum: POC, DOC, Ryan, Tuohy.

Do keep up.

irishbucsfan

Podge_irl wrote: »

I'll put my hand up and say I thought D. Kearney was only in the squad thanks to his brother and was never going to make it. He's had an absolutely fantastic season though and I would have had no qualms if he had to start the final. Whether that's good coaching or just him being a late developer or a combo I dunno but its impressive.

He looks the most "international ready" of the options to me. I think Zebo has the potential to be better (as I've mentioned, just pure gas gives him an advantage) but he has more obvious flaws in his game.

I don't think he's a late developer. He was excellent in school and when he came out of school he took a pretty serious leg injury which put him out for a long time at a very important point in his development, I suppose it's not a surprise he took a bit longer to develop than his brother.

I think if Kidney was unbiased he'd pick Kearney. He outplayed Zebo for the Wolfhounds.

Aidric

tolosenc wrote: »

You got that far? I started gouging my eyes out at O'Callaghan.

CiaranMT

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I don't think he's a late developer. He was excellent in school and when he came out of school he took a pretty serious leg injury which put him out for a long time at a very important point in his development, I suppose it's not a surprise he took a bit longer to develop than his brother.

I think if Kidney was unbiased he'd pick Kearney. He outplayed Zebo for the Wolfhounds.

He only appears that way because his brother was playing for the Lions and lauded as the best FB in the world at 23, while Dave is 23 in July. He's doing just fine for himself.

rrpc

Fishooks12 wrote: »

I've started a new blog dedicated to rugby

Did the first piece on today's squad announcement

http://thedroppingegg.wordpress.com/

Not sure If I'm strictly allowed to do that so Mods feel free to snip!

Pretty good Fishooks, but...

could of

could have

Also Kindey?

Fishooks12

rrpc wrote: »

Pretty good Fishooks, but...


could have

Also Kindey?

Ha sorry, didn't proof it yet!

Aidric

rrpc wrote: »

Gauge?

Indeed, corrected.

rrpc

GerM wrote: »

Whilst I'm not a massive fan of POM personally due to his niggly nature and propensity for looking for handbags, he's a class act as a player. If he can develop a level of physicality to something in the same bracket as the current Irish back row, he'll be an international for the next decade.

Something I hadn't noticed myself, but the Mole pointed it out some time ago after the Os match:

Peter O’Mahony snorted around the park in typical fashion but Jones x 2, Tipuric, Evans and Bearman had more physicality and O’Mahony seems wholly unable (or unwilling) to tackle on his left shoulder.

Linky

Aidric

thomond2006 wrote: »

Who would you have as the 2 inside centres? Wallace and McFadden?

Yes. Granted McFadden hasn't set the world alight but D'arcy has been a spent force in the international team for a while now.

I think Craig Gilroy should have been in the squad also instead of Zebo.

rrpc

Aidric wrote: »

Yes. Granted McFadden hasn't set the world alight but D'arcy has been a spent force in the international team for a while now.

It completely escapes me how people who know that the international squad is a badly managed, coached and selected can't similarly understand that players will not be at their best in those circumstances.

For example, DOC is not starting for Munster. Munster supporters know that it's because he's not up to the standard any more and can't fathom (the same as the rest of us) why he still gets onto the international squad and the starting lineup.

Conversely D'Arcy has been strong for Leinster, especially notable in the final and yet is universally lambasted because he can't do miracles in the green shirt when getting slow ball in no space on the back foot.

Don't get me wrong, he has his flaws and has missed a few tackles, but he makes a huge number of them and does exceptional work in the loose. I think somebody quoted his stats in comparison to Paddy Wallace above somewhere and they speak for themselves.

I really don't get the universal disdain he gets on this forum. That should be reserved primarily for the non-existent game plan that sets out to negate the best attributes of many of our best players.

TomLamp

O'Gara, O'Callaghan and Zebo are there but Madigan, McLaughlin and Gilroy aren't?

Talking to a mate involved with Leinster today about the Irish squad and to use his own words : "the lads know that even the 60/40 calls will go to the Munster players"

It implies things aren't so rosy in the Irish camp.

Zebo has scored a lot of tries, he has conceeded a lot more including one at the hands of Gilroy in a Heineken Cup quarter final.

It is shocking that Munster are so highly represented considering they're current form.
O'Gara,O'Callaghan,Zebo,Murray,Sherry,POM should not be let near the Irish 22. (well ROG has to be because thanks to Kidney hes the only other fly half)

HOPING to see
1.Healy
2.Best
3.Ross
4.O'Connell
5.Touhy
6.Ferris
7.O'Brien
8.Heaslip
9.Reddan
10.Sexton
11.Earls
12.D'arcy
13.O'Driscoll
14.McFadden
15.Kearney

16.Cronin
17.Fitzpatrick
18.Ryan
19.Henry
20.Boss
21.O'Gara (shudder)
22.Cave

Fishooks12

TomLamp wrote: »

O'Gara, O'Callaghan and Zebo are there but Madigan, McLaughlin and Gilroy aren't?

Talking to a mate involved with Leinster today about the Irish squad and to use his own words : "the lads know that even the 60/40 calls will go to the Munster players"

It implies things aren't so rosy in the Irish camp.

Zebo has scored a lot of tries, he has conceeded a lot more including one at the hands of Gilroy in a Heineken Cup quarter final.

It is shocking that Munster are so highly represented considering they're current form.
O'Gara,O'Callaghan,Zebo,Murray,Sherry,POM should not be let near the Irish 22. (well ROG has to be because thanks to Kidney hes the only other fly half)

HOPING to see
1.Healy
2.Best
3.Ross
4.O'Connell
5.Touhy
6.Ferris
7.O'Brien
8.Heaslip
9.Reddan
10.Sexton
11.Earls
12.D'arcy
13.O'Driscoll
14.McFadden
15.Kearney

16.Cronin
17.Fitzpatrick
18.Ryan
19.Henry
20.Boss
21.O'Gara (shudder)
22.Cave

POM can play 6/7or 8. He's had a brilliant year and is near perfect for the Irish 19 shirt which he deserves

You do realise POC is injured to btw?

And that Sherry will not be near the 22 bar injury to Cronin or Best, what hooker would you have as third choice if not Sherry?

Aidric

rrpc wrote: »

I really don't get the universal disdain he gets on this forum.

It's not disdain. It's the frustration that other options aren't being tried.

Benny Cake

Fishooks12 wrote: »

POM can play 6/7or 8. He's had a brilliant year and is near perfect for the Irish 19 shirt which he deserves

You do realise POC is injured to btw?

And that Sherry will not be near the 22 bar injury to Cronin or Best, what hooker would you have as third choice if not Sherry?

Don't worry mate, I doubt Tom Lamp has watched a game of rugby all season...

irishbucsfan

Fishooks12 wrote: »

POM can play 6/7or 8. He's had a brilliant year and is near perfect for the Irish 19 shirt which he deserves

You do realise POC is injured to btw?

And that Sherry will not be near the 22 bar injury to Cronin or Best, what hooker would you have as third choice if not Sherry?

If Chris Henry is fit, which he may not be, then surely he deserves that 19 jersey. He has more experience in every single position than POM (who is not a 7) and is a better player than him. POM is still a fair bit away from reaching his potential.

TomLamp

Benny Cake wrote: »

Don't worry mate, I doubt Tom Lamp has watched a game of rugby all season...

Yeah I havent watched a game of rugby because I think Chris Henry has performed better than POM :rolleyes:

Podge_irl

I've never been a massive Earls fan, but it utterly bemuses me that anyone could doubt his selection in the squad after the last year, particularly post-RWC.

Perhaps Dominic Ryan was "in the mix", we don't really know. However, considering he's played 2 games in the last 2 months its not really that surprising that he misses out.

Fishooks12

irishbucsfan wrote: »

If Chris Henry is fit, which he may not be, then surely he deserves that 19 jersey. He has more experience in every single position than POM (who is not a 7) and is a better player than him. POM is still a fair bit away from reaching his potential.

Not sure I'd agree that there's as much difference between them. But I def wouldn't begrudge Henry the shirt either

TomLamp

Fishooks12 wrote: »

POM can play 6/7or 8. He's had a brilliant year and is near perfect for the Irish 19 shirt which he deserves

You do realise POC is injured to btw?

And that Sherry will not be near the 22 bar injury to Cronin or Best, what hooker would you have as third choice if not Sherry?

I would have Sherry as third choice, hence why I said he shouldnt be near the 22.

Fishooks12

TomLamp wrote: »

I would have Sherry as third choice, hence why I said he shouldnt be near the 22.

Well if he's one injury away from benching would that not put him very near the 22?

irishbucsfan

Podge_irl wrote: »

I've never been a massive Earls fan, but it utterly bemuses me that anyone could doubt his selection in the squad after the last year, particularly post-RWC.

Perhaps Dominic Ryan was "in the mix", we don't really know. However, considering he's played 2 games in the last 2 months its not really that surprising that he misses out.

There are players in Ireland who people dislike for absolutely childish reasons that are far removed from rugby: Heaslip, Earls, Wallace...

TomLamp

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Well if he's one injury away from benching would that not put him very near the 22?

What I mean is that he should not be in the 22 at all or even considered unless we absolutely have no other option.

Fireball07

You see the thing is...

I don't think ROG should necessarily be left at home. But I think Madigan should have gone aswell. I think we should bring 3 OHs just in case. If it wasn't ROG, then Madigan and Keatley/Humphries/someone.

As for second rows- I don't think anyone would argue with POC, Ryan, Tuohy. I think most people would pick Toner or McCarthy for the last spot, but I suppose DOC getting picked isn't the absolute end of the world bar the fact that we know he's going to get picked ahead of Tuohy.

Sherry had to go at hooker, poor game against Ospreys but he's looked pretty decent and there really isn't any other option since Varley is injured.

I'd have liked to see Spence go tbh if he's not bringing Wallace.

Podge_irl

TomLamp wrote: »

What I mean is that he should not be in the 22 at all or even considered unless we absolutely have no other option.

We have no other option. Literally the only hookers who could tour are Sherry, Brady or Kyriacou. We just have to hope nothing happens to Best.

Fishooks12

Podge_irl wrote: »

We have no other option. Literally the only hookers who could tour are Sherry, Brady or Kyriacou. We just have to hope nothing happens to Best.

I'd like to see Cronin start a test

Although it won't happen

TomLamp

1.Healy
2.Best
3.Ross
4.Touhy
5.Toner
6.Ferris
7.O'Brien
8.Heaslip
9.Reddan
10.Sexton
11.Trimble
12.D'arcy
13.O'Driscoll
14.McFadden
15.Kearney

Leinster team with Best, Ferris and Trimble thrown in. If that team could play the Leinster way we could beat the All Blacks.