Ireland Tour to New Zealand 2012 Discussion thread

irishbucsfan

twinytwo wrote: »

7 KML

what

rrpc

Banbridgeman wrote: »

I reluctantly agree with lamp. There's a reason Lions victories are rare and it's because there's no fluidity between players unused to playing with each other. After that final I think it's time to swallow pride and just start the Leinster team with o'connell, Best, Ferris and earls thrown in. Munster had 10 players starting for Ireland for years and were nowhere close to being as good as this Leinster team so 11 Leinster players starting isn't that crazy. Make hay while the sun shines and all that jazz

It can be a little less stark than that. Ian McGeechan had the right idea going to South Africa in that he picked players in pods. For example he picked Jerry Flannery with POC and DOC and the Irish half backs of ROG and TOL and the Welsh pair of Wellies and Philips.

He did this right through the sqaud and you knew what he wanted; a hooker throwing to his regular locks and half backs that were used to each other.

It all fell apart of course when both Flannery and TOL were injured even before the tour started and the match ups weren't that satisfactory in the tests. I fully expect Warren Gatland to adopt the same approach because there's no better way of getting a disparate team to gel.

Kidney however, plays with a deck of 52 and just throws it in the air and sees where all the cards land. I fully expect him some day to put Jonny Sexton in the second row and play POC at full back.

And all the press will think it was a great idea and proves what a cute hoor Deccie really is :rolleyes:

Podge_irl

While Kidney's selections are a bit crap, they have never been the biggest problem.

If he was the Leinster coach with the exact same squad as Schmidt they wouldn't be holding 3 HECs right now, and more to the point they would not be the envy of Europe with their play.

I am utterly sick of the rugby Ireland play. Its a perfect example of rugby that you won't complain about if winning but is utterly abysmal to watch otherwise.

rrpc

Podge_irl wrote: »

While Kidney's selections are a bit crap, they have never been the biggest problem.

If he was the Leinster coach with the exact same squad as Schmidt they wouldn't be holding 3 HECs right now, and more to the point they would not be the envy of Europe with their play.

I am utterly sick of the rugby Ireland play. Its a perfect example of rugby that you won't complain about if winning but is utterly abysmal to watch otherwise.

Oh, I complained about it even when we were winning a grand slam. :eek:

Seriously I did. I always felt we were within a gnats whisker of getting found out and turned over. Luckily we didn't, but it was a very close thing.

Fishooks12

At the moment, ignoring injuries, Irelands best 15 IMO is something like

15 Kearney
14 Bowe/Fitzgerald
13 BOD
12 Wallace
11 Earls
10 Sexton
9 Reddan
8 Heaslip
7 SOB
6 Ferris
5 Tuohy
4 POC
3 Ross
2 Best
1 Healy

That's a serious team and under the right coaching would be more than capable of beating any other international side

mfceiling

Fishooks12 wrote: »

At the moment, ignoring injuries, Irelands best 15 IMO is something like

15 Kearney
14 Bowe/Fitzgerald
13 BOD
12 Wallace
11 Earls
10 Sexton
9 Reddan
8 Heaslip
7 SOB
6 Ferris
5 Tuohy
4 POC
3 Ross
2 Best
1 Healy

That's a serious team and under the right coaching would be more than capable of beating any other international side

Hmmmm

bossa_nova

rrpc wrote: »

Oh, I complained about it even when we were winning a grand slam. :eek:

Seriously I did. I always felt we were within a gnats whisker of getting found out and turned over. Luckily we didn't, but it was a very close thing.

I think most people looked back and realized this after things went pear-shaped in 2010 onwards, in fact its so similar to the way things are now, one decent performance (against france in '09) and crap for the rest of the show

rrpc

Fishooks12 wrote: »

At the moment, ignoring injuries, Irelands best 15 IMO is something like

15 Kearney
14 Bowe/Fitzgerald
13 BOD
12 Wallace
11 Earls
10 Sexton
9 Reddan
8 Heaslip
7 SOB
6 Ferris
5 Tuohy
4 POC
3 Ross
2 Best
1 Healy

That's a serious team and under the right coaching would be more than capable of beating any other international side

You really do need to name another eight these days because as Joe has proven, the bench is as important as the starting XV.

I think this is where we have some difficulty and where Deccie's selection policies have really hurt us. The only thing he's doing on this tour is bringing FitzPatrick to have him in harness for when the new laws come into play.

teednab-el

So much commotion about selecting players to play on the test for Ireland no matter what, Ireland will be whipped by the All Blacks. No win over the All Blacks in the history books. Waste of a trip to be fair. It might be better if we were going to Australia. We might have some chance there.

Tox56

The criticism of this coaching ticket in the media (or lack thereof) has made a huge difference, and is possibly the only reason DK is still in a job and still so conservative in his selections.

Some were saying the media aren't relevant, but public opinion is almost totally influenced by these so called "journalists". Farrelly just drives me up the wall, that "Kidney doesn't exactly have options growing on trees" comment was infuriating.

twinytwo

teednab-el wrote: »

So much commotion about selecting players to play on the test for Ireland no matter what, Ireland will be whipped by the All Blacks. No win over the All Blacks in the history books. Waste of a trip to be fair. It might be better if we were going to Australia. We might have some chance there.

if we play the best team in a way that best suited them as opposed to what kidney thinks is best, we are more than capabe of beating them

Fishooks12

teednab-el wrote: »

So much commotion about selecting players to play on the test for Ireland no matter what, Ireland will be whipped by the All Blacks. No win over the All Blacks in the history books. Waste of a trip to be fair. It might be better if we were going to Australia. We might have some chance there.

If we had decent coaches we could win the series

Even with Kidney at the helm we might actually sneak the first test considering the AB's will be blooding new players and might have a WC hangover period

danthefan

Tox56 wrote: »

The criticism of this coaching ticket in the media (or lack thereof) has made a huge difference, and is possibly the only reason DK is still in a job and still so conservative in his selections.

Some were saying the media aren't relevant, but public opinion is almost totally influenced by these so called "journalists". Farrelly just drives me up the wall, that "Kidney doesn't exactly have options growing on trees" comment was infuriating.

I rarely read Farrelly anymore. It's not worth my time.

I think you're largely correct on the first point. EOS had completely lost the media and hence a lot of the fans after the RWC, even Thornley absolutely savaged him. There hasn't been so much of a whimper about Kidney apart from Neil Francis.

Clegg

I'm disappointed by some of the selections. Zebo shouldn't be travelling and Gilroy can feel very hard done by. But what I'm more interested in is the way Ireland will play against the All Blacks.

Right now our de facto tactic is to give it to the forwards and try and bash our way through. The are no dummy runners or switch passes or anything of the sort. Sexton stands deep and hoofs the leather off the ball. In fairness things might be starting to change. Ireland were the highest try scorers in the 6 Nations and played well in patches. But playing well in patches isn't good enough either.

We got rid of our backs coach last year and were told that it wasn't possible to get a new one right away. Well it's been almost a year since the WC and we still haven't gotten a backs coach. It's a shocking state if affairs imo.

If Irelans haven't improved by this time next year then Kidney shpouldn't be given a contract extension.

doomed

Fishooks12 wrote: »

At the moment, ignoring injuries, Irelands best 15 IMO is something like

15 Kearney
14 Bowe/Fitzgerald
13 BOD
12 Wallace
11 Earls
10 Sexton
9 Reddan
8 Heaslip
7 SOB
6 Ferris
5 Tuohy
4 POC
3 Ross
2 Best
1 Healy

That's a serious team and under the right coaching would be more than capable of beating any other international side

Agree with almost all of it especially 1-10. Without getting carried away about Saturday (if Fofana had held on to the ball for a split second longer Clermont would have gone through) it makes sense to build the Irish team around Leinster with as many people who know each other as possible playing in their HC positions. That way they should remember enough of Schmidt's coaching when they are away. For that reason and because he is playing way better now than earlier on this season, I'd have Darcy at 12.

BarackPyjama

But isn't Kidney just a 'yes' man for the IRFU? If we replaced Kidney with, say, Schmidt, wouldn't Schmidt's hands just be tied? The IRFU have literally admitted that they wouldn't listen to an appointed coach anyway. Remember how Gatland was treated?

The IRFU are just a collective of old boys who are lost in the professional era. The provinces are coached autonomously and look at the success they've had in Europe over the last decade. Then look at Ireland - considering the players we have, we've drastically underperformed and play a brand of rugby that was relegated by the best national sides a long time ago.

I truly believe that we have the players to reach a World Cup final or, God forbid, even win a World Cup. As it stands, we were incredibly fortunate to make the quarter finals in our last outing, considering the state of our management.

twinytwo

Clegg wrote: »

I'm disappointed by some of the selections. Zebo shouldn't be travelling and Gilroy can feel very hard done by. But what I'm more interested in is the way Ireland will play against the All Blacks.

Right now our de facto tactic is to give it to the forwards and try and bash our way through. The are no dummy runners or switch passes or anything of the sort. Sexton stands deep and hoofs the leather off the ball. In fairness things might be starting to change. Ireland were the highest try scorers in the 6 Nations and played well in patches. But playing well in patches isn't good enough either.

We got rid of our backs coach last year and were told that it wasn't possible to get a new one right away. Well it's been almost a year since the WC and we still haven't gotten a backs coach. It's a shocking state if affairs imo.

If Irelans haven't improved by this time next year then Kidney shpouldn't be given a contract extension.

unless he suddenly changes his and we actually give a decent showing in NZ i want him gone

Fireball07

There's one thing that puzzles me.


Does Kidney not want to get his contract extended? Can he honestly not see that we could win games if we adopted a certain style, we have showed flashes of brilliance over the last few years? Can he not see that some players he's picking are inferior to ones left behind? Surely he wants to keep his job...

leonard7

firstly annoyed at the inclusion of zebo in the squad as i think he has shown he is not ready and ive never rated him as a player 2ndly this AN Other rubbish has to stop if you arent going to name the squad then dont name it

trackguy

I'm looking forward to this tour, like I always look forward to Ireland playing. However, I don't expect much. Yes it's NZ but I'm more concerned by the Irish team.

We are again in trouble,as we've always been on end of season tours, because of the lack of alternatives in many of the positions.

12 & 13 - woefully short of options if the first choice pair are injured. This has been patently obvious for 5 years.

8 - Heaslip is still underpar imo and SOB is the only other option. Heaslip needs a boot but he's untouchable it seems.

5 - Dan Tuohy, belatedly, comes into the set up. It's a shame he doesn't have more experience coming into such a tour. Remarkably, he's probably 3rd choice even if POC is injured.

3 - Please Mike, don't get injured. Deccie is fecked if you do (I'm still not wishing he gets injured)

Fishooks12

trackguy wrote: »

I'm looking forward to this tour, like I always look forward to Ireland playing. However, I don't expect much. Yes it's NZ but I'm more concerned by the Irish team.

We are again in trouble,as we've always been on end of season tours, because of the lack of alternatives in many of the positions.

12 & 13 - woefully short of options if the first choice pair are injured. This has been patently obvious for 5 years.

8 - Heaslip is still underpar imo and SOB is the only other option. Heaslip needs a boot but he's untouchable it seems.

5 - Dan Tuohy, belatedly, comes into the set up. It's a shame he doesn't have more experience coming into such a tour. Remarkably, he's probably 3rd choice even if POC is injured.

3 - Please Mike, don't get injured. Deccie is fecked if you do (I'm still not wishing he gets injured)

Richard Hillman

Its probably been pointed out already but Cory Jane is out for 6 weeks and out of the series

sandyfordboi

on the basis of the players that were picked today my starting team for the first test would be

15 Kearney
14 Trimble
13 Bod
12 Darcy
11 Earls
10 Sexton
9 Reddan
8 O brien
7 Henry
6 Ferris
5 O Connell
4 Tuohy
3 Ross
2 Cronin
1 Healy

In terms of the squad its disappointing that Ian Madigan isnt in there as I thought from any of the games I saw him play in he has a bit of magic about him and the likes of Gilroy, Toner, Marshall and Dave Kearney could of added alot to the squad if they were picked too

trackguy

Fishhooks12 -

If we take SOB, Ferris, Heaslip and POM to be Ireland's 4 best back row players...

SOB, Ferris and POM are in the best form and I think, currently/ on form, a back row of 6. Ferris 7. POM 8. SOB offers more than 6. Ferris 7. SOB 8. Heaslip.

Again, I'm basing this on FORM.

Fishooks12

trackguy wrote: »

Fishhooks12 -

If we take SOB, Ferris, Heaslip and POM to be Ireland's 4 best back row players...

SOB, Ferris and POM are in the best form and I think, currently/ on form a back row of 6. Ferris 7. POM 8. SOB offers more than 6. Ferris 7. SOB 8. Heaslip.

Again, I'm basing this on FORM.

Heaslip is in fantastic form so you obviously are not

Heaslip has been absolutely excellent. Literally not a clue what people's problem is with him!

trackguy

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Heaslip is in fantastic form so you obviously are not

Nah, he has shown a slight improvement in the last few matches alright but it is not having a great impact on games in an attacking sense.

I'm not advocating chucking the guy on the scrapheap, I just think that his form has dipped and remained below what it should be for an extended period and that (maybe) being left out would provide him with some extra motivation etc etc

Luke Fitzgerald came back and had a very good end of season after being left out of the WC squad. He would be back pushing for the 11 shirt if he didn't get injured.

trackguy

Deleted User wrote: »

Heaslip has been absolutely excellent. Literally not a clue what people's problem is with him!

I have no problem with him. I'm not trying to personally attack the player. Some lads get seriously defensive about certain players around here! :rolleyes:

trackguy

trackguy wrote: »

Nah, he has shown a slight improvement in the last few matches alright but it is not having a great impact on games in an attacking sense.

I'm not advocating chucking the guy on the scrapheap, I just think that his form has dipped and remained below what it should be for an extended period and that (maybe) being left out would provide him with some extra motivation etc etc

Luke Fitzgerald came back and had a very good end of season after being left out of the WC squad. He would be back pushing for the 11 shirt if he didn't get injured.

here ya go - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=78557829

There was a time when Heaslip would get back to back MotM awards for 6 weeks at a time. This was when his role in the side meant he was massively visible, involved in everything good about our pack.

Just because he's not the best player on the park every single game doesn't mean that he's playing poorly, and he's certainly far far better at 8 than any other options!

trackguy

trackguy wrote: »

I have no problem with him. I'm not trying to personally attack the player. Some lads get seriously defensive about certain players around here! :rolleyes:

some people spout strange opinions on here without any sort of logic or reason too though.

Here's the question that I asked Amazo, that I'd asked d-gal before, and that nobody has answered with any degree of satisfaction, beyond massive subjectivity and vague non-examples.

I'd appreciate if you could post (in the Ireland thread obviously), any reasons for this ridiculous misconception that Heaslip has been "bad" at any stage in the past 12 months.

What is he not doing? What do you want him doing more of? What do you expect from him that he's not getting done enough? I asked someone to substantiate their reasoning on the matter before and when pressed they went suspiciously quiet. It's actually head wrecking that I see this posted so often by people who actually seem to know what they're talking about mostly.