Ireland Tour to New Zealand 2012 Discussion thread

its_phil

Piliger wrote: »

The last tour was the depth of embarrassment. But I fear this one may be even worse ...

I don't think we'll win. But it'll be better than having 14 men on the pitch against 15 all blacks. Unless Jamie gets another rush of blood to the head!

I'd say it'll b within 12 on two and over 20 in one

TheKeenMachine

TheKeenMachine wrote: »

I think picking between Archer, Hagan and Macklin is a matter of preference. IMO Tom Court has never been good enough to play Test rugby and it would be a waste of a plane ticket to bring him, much rather see Horan, who is a much better scrummager, but I forgot about Brett Wilkinson who is better than them both.

Archer
Hagan
Macklin

All tight heads. Macklin the only one that's not had his head shoved into his arse all season of the three. Macklin and McAllister (as kids basically) have been a solid scrum up north this year when called upon.

Court
Horan

Looseheads. I have no idea how you could possibly choose Horan ahead of Court here. Evidence of Horan's inability to scrummage on the loosehead side would be the recent Munster v Leinster game in Thomond Park. He is no longer dynamic in the loose, and is way off the pace. Court has been part of a destructive scrum and is an absolute work horse in the loose. He also, in times of requirement, can fill a hole at tight head. This is not his primary role however.

bilston

Based on a 30 man squad (and my opinion probably changes week on week to be fair!). As of today I'd go with this:

PROPS
Cian Healy - no brainer
Mike Ross - no brainer
Tom Court - struggled at TH against England but can still do well at LH
John Andress - just really throwing a name out there in fairness! I don't think either Macklin or Archer are ready though

HOOKERS
Rory Best - no brainer
Sean Cronin - no brainer
Mike Sherry - may have overtaken Varley now at Munster so on that basis should tour ahead of him

LOCKS
Donacha O'Callaghan - I don't think he's finished yet, IMO the clamour for Ryan's inclusion was based on him playing well rather than DOC not
Paul O'Connell - no brainer
Donnacha Ryan - no brainer
Dan Tuohy - I don't think Deccie can continuen top ignore Tuohy now, good lineout operator and excellent carrier, maybe best used as an impact sub for now though.

BACK ROWS
Stephen Ferris - no brainer unless his knee is giving him problems in which case a summer off mightn't be the worst idea in the world
Sean O'Brien - no brainer
Chris Henry - For me he has to tour, he is developing into a very good O/S, he's also versatile and can play anywhere in the back row although lacks real dynamism for 8 at test level IMO which I think is where his previous couple of caps have come
David Wallace - If he's fit then I'd still bring him
Jamie Heaslip - no brainer

SCRUM HALFS
Eoin Reddan - no brainer
Conor Murray - no brainer
Paul Marshall - He could bring so much impact from the bench for Ireland, I'm fairly sure he'll be behind TOL and Boss but his form merits selection above both

OUT HALFS
Jonathan Sexton - no brainer
Ronan O'Gara - we could bring Madigan instead but I'd rather test Madigan out against Fiji or Argentina in November first instead. ROG's experience could be handy if we want to actually win a game

CENTRES
Gordon D'Arcy - torn on this, but again I can't see him being left out altogether, he's also shown in the last couple of weeks that in the right environment he can still put in big performances, but in saying that he was very poor in the 6Ns. I could be persuaded one way or the other here. I wouldn't want him to start though.
Brian O'Driscoll - no brainer
Darren Cave - IMO the most natural 13 outside of BOD, he'd probably only be along for the ride, but I'd be intrigued by a BOD/Cave midfield pairing with BOD at 12.

CENTRES/BACK THREE
Fergus McFadden - If I'm including D'Arcy then McFadden fits the no brainer category
Keith Earls - no brainer

BACK THREE
Andrew Trimble - no brainer
Luke Fitzgerald - in form and with Bowe out has a great chance of making the starting XV
Rob Kearney - no brainer
Felix Jones - We need a second out and out full back and while Felix is still clearly finding his way back to form after injury he's next in line after Kearney. If Bowe is available then I'd replace Jones with Tommy and usee Keet and Fitz as FB cover.

Edit -

Starting XV then

15 Kearney
14 Trimble
13 Earls
12 O'Driscoll
11 Fitzgerald
10 Sexton
9 Reddan
1 Healy
2 Best
3 Ross
4 Ryan
5 O'Connell
6 Ferris
7 O'Brien
8 Heaslip

Bench
16 Cronin, 17 Court, 18 Tuohy, 19 Wallace, 20 Marshall, 21 O'Gara, 22 McFadden

Hippo

New Coach - no brainer

bamboozle

this is the squad i'd like to see travel, a squad of 34

Props
Ross, Healy, Loughney, Wilkinson, Jack McGrath/Kilcoyne

Hookers
Best, Cronin, Sherry

2nd Rows
POC, Ryan, Touhy, McCarthy

Back row
SOB, Heaslip, McLaughlin, Henry, POM, Ruddock

SH
Reddan, Marshall, Murray
OH
Sexton, ROG, Madigan
centres
BOD, McFadden, EOM, Cave

back three
Kearney, Earls, Fitz, Trimble, Zebo, Gilroy

Rested
Ferris

Time in an irish jersey finished
DOC, D'arcy, D. Wallace

Unlucky to lose out
Felix Jones, Muldoon, Griffen,

enough experience there but also i'd want to see the squad injected with youth who will liven up things, Sherry, Zebo, Gilroy, Marshall, Ruddock, EOM, Cave would all benefit from the exposure to this tour

Cant understand why Marcus Horan is even mentioned, i think Archer will be surpassed by Kilcoyne, Cotter, Condon and Ryan in the munster set up next season. I'd bring Kilcoyne or Jack McGrath along for them to get some intense exposure to international level scrum training.

TheKeenMachine

Firstly, I wouldn't be an expert on front rows, so picking Marcus Horan was more a case of not picking Court. I've only seen Wilkinson once or twice and would have no problems bringing him but I didn't really know enough about him to select him originally. The same goes for Loughney.
Secondly, my opinion of Tom Court is not based on that day in Twickenham, it would be unfair to only blame him for the fiasco at scrum time. Maybe it's my imagination but any time he comes on, Ireland seem to struggle to retain ball.

totallegend

TheKeenMachine wrote: »

Firstly, I wouldn't be an expert on front rows, so picking Marcus Horan was more a case of not picking Court. I've only seen Wilkinson once or twice and would have no problems bringing him but I didn't really know enough about him to select him originally. The same goes for Loughney.
Secondly, my opinion of Tom Court is not based on that day in Twickenham, it would be unfair to only blame him for the fiasco at scrum time. Maybe it's my imagination but any time he comes on, Ireland seem to struggle to retain ball.

No, it's probably not your imagination but we have to distinguish between Court's ability at loose-head and his inability at tight-head. At LH, he is top-notch and there is, IMO, no question over his scrummaging, he's also very mobile for a prop. He's not in the same league as Healy in terms of ball-carrying but he's not far behind in most other aspects. It's when he shifts to tight-head that things go pear-shaped. I don't know why the Six Nations doesn't allow 8 replacements; I'm not sure what the story will be for these games in the summer, will we be allowed two props on the bench?

Horan is finished, he is barely up to Rabo league standard anymore.

I'd give Loughney a call-up as TH cover, I think he's been decent and he has more game-time this year than most of the alternatives.

fitz

I'd love to see us beat the All Blacks. Particularly for the likes of BOD, who won't have many more opportunities to tick that particular career achievement off the list.

But.

Does anyone else think that a win would be bad for the national side in the medium term, as it would inevitably prolong Kidney's tenure?

CIARAN_BOYLE

totallegend wrote: »

No, it's probably not your imagination but we have to distinguish between Court's ability at loose-head and his inability at tight-head. At LH, he is top-notch and there is, IMO, no question over his scrummaging, he's also very mobile for a prop. He's not in the same league as Healy in terms of ball-carrying but he's not far behind in most other aspects. It's when he shifts to tight-head that things go pear-shaped. I don't know why the Six Nations doesn't allow 8 replacements; I'm not sure what the story will be for these games in the summer, will we be allowed two props on the bench?

Horan is finished, he is barely up to Rabo league standard anymore.

I'd give Loughney a call-up as TH cover, I think he's been decent and he has more game-time this year than most of the alternatives.

No

WeeBushy

It's daft that you don't have 8 subs for all competitions. All it does is exacerbate the problems across the board with scrums. Why force Court to come on at TH when you could just add an extra prop to the bench? Th and and LH are two completely different and specialist positions. Why can't the subs bench reflect this?

thebaz

Podge_irl wrote: »

Tom Court is easily as good as Horan at loosehead and obviously leagues ahead of him at tighthead. The rap Court gets is ridiculous -

one word - twickenham - we have to have someone better as reserve prop - ok, agree he should tour as deputy to Healy, but thats it -

Hagz

WeeBushy wrote: »

It's daft that you don't have 8 subs for all competitions. All it does is exacerbate the problems across the board with scrums. Why force Court to come on at TH when you could just add an extra prop to the bench? Th and and LH are two completely different and specialist positions. Why can't the subs bench reflect this?

Something to do with smaller nations not being able to field 23 players

Neil3030

fitz wrote: »

Does anyone else think that a win would be bad for the national side in the medium term, as it would inevitably prolong Kidney's tenure?

That he even has fans questioning the merits of an away victory over NZ is truly depressing...

totallegend

thebaz wrote: »

one word - twickenham - we have to have someone better as reserve prop - ok, agree he should tour as deputy to Healy, but thats it -

One word - who?

bilston

thebaz wrote: »

one word - twickenham - we have to have someone better as reserve prop - ok, agree he should tour as deputy to Healy, but thats it -

Well we'd better drop Mike Ross as well then since the scrum was going backwards while he was still on the field.

Hagz

bilston wrote: »

Well we'd better drop Mike Ross as well then since the scrum was going backwards while he was still on the field.

Yeh but he picked up an injury remember?

thebaz

bilston wrote: »

Well we'd better drop Mike Ross as well then since the scrum was going backwards while he was still on the field.

whats your reasoning , Court is better than Ross as a test prop

fitz

Neil3030 wrote: »

That he even has fans questioning the merits of an away victory over NZ is truly depressing...

I know, it feels dirty.

TheKeenMachine

What I'll really be interested to see is whether or not Kidney will give the likes of Madigan, Zebo/Gilroy/Kearney, Ruddock a chance. I really hope McLaughlin and Henry will go and play, they've been two of the outstanding players this season and work non stop

jacothelad

TheKeenMachine wrote: »

Ok, so off the back of a somewhat disappointing Six Nations campaign, Kidney's men will be heading to New Zealand to attempt to record a first victory against the All Blacks this summer.
Tour Itinerary
JUNE 2012
Sat 9th Jun 12
F New Zealand v Ireland Eden Park
Sat 16th Jun 12
F New Zealand v Ireland Rugby League Park
Sat 23rd Jun 12
F New Zealand v Ireland Waikato Stadium

Does anyone think Ireland will break their duck against the ABs or will it be three losses in a row?
In terms of squad selection, I hope that Kidney will experiment a little bit with some young players such as Ian Madigan or Simon Zebo and phase out some of the older campaigners.
If I were to pick a 30 man squad to travel, it would look something like this:

It all began quite well and then you put in:


Marcus Horan; Stephen Archer

You'd be better off with Ethel the Tea lady. As you say later, you have no idea about the front row. You actually didn't need to admit it.

On the subject of having a tight head and a loose head on the bench, there is nothing to stop Kidney having 2 props - except I have the sinking sensation that I got when I saw Archer's name in the Wolfhounds side. Can you imagine Archer against a real international loosehead? If a coach can't see that a player is totally inept - how and why is he a coach?

Shelflife

Its a perfect time to be playing NZ

---

if youre kidney.

He will need to bring a squad of seasoned campaigners, not the time to be making wholesale changes in squad or playing style.

Even if he brings zebo and madigan etc the closest they will get to a jersey is if they are washing them.

Sure you couldnt play an inexperienced player against NZ.

Perfect for deccie, no changes all the old hands in the team (experience needed) will def see ogara start at least one test.

Dire for the team, as i said in another thread good first game, poor second game patched up team brave in a bad defeat in the 3rd game.

Overall another 3 defeats , nothing learned and one or two injuries picked up and a reputation or two taking another plumment.

Our only hope is if carter is out and they totally underestimate us.

I fear the worst for this tour.

part time punk

WeeBushy wrote: »

It's daft that you don't have 8 subs for all competitions. All it does is exacerbate the problems across the board with scrums. Why force Court to come on at TH when you could just add an extra prop to the bench? Th and and LH are two completely different and specialist positions. Why can't the subs bench reflect this?

Is there anything to stop you having full front row cover on the bench though? You could just have one other forward on the bench that can play second row or in the back row

Edit - just seen Jaco's post above

GerM

part time punk wrote: »

Is there anything to stop you having full front row cover on the bench though? You could just have one other forward on the bench that can play second row or in the back row

Nope. French club teams particularly did it for years. Obviously don't see it now but they used to bring on an entirely new front row after 55 minutes and have a utility back and one half back on the bench. Just requires someone to be able to cover an additional position in the backs like Isaac Boss. Absolutely nothing to stop DK doing it. It only makes sense to really do it though if you have a good loosehead and a good tighthead to bring on to really go at the opposition which Ireland don't have. Otherwise, you've a prop sitting there that might be able to come in and not totally capitulate if Ross gets injured.

TheKeenMachine

jacothelad wrote: »

It all began quite well and then you put in:


Marcus Horan; Stephen Archer

You'd be better off with Ethel the Tea lady. As you say later, you have no idea about the front row. You actually didn't need to admit it.

On the subject of having a tight head and a loose head on the bench, there is nothing to stop Kidney having 2 props - except I have the sinking sensation that I got when I saw Archer's name in the Wolfhounds side. Can you imagine Archer against a real international loosehead? If a coach can't see that a player is totally inept - how and why is he a coach?

Feel like a right fool now:o My mistake

totallegend

Putting two props on the bench would be a good idea if we had a back-up TH. But we don't.

In my rugby dreams, I think Madigan would do a great job interchanging between scrum-half and out-half; he has the snappiest pass I've seen in a long while, he has great awareness of when to break and he even played full-back for Ireland U20s. With him and McFadden on the bench, you'd have decent cover for all positions.

GerM

totallegend wrote: »

In my rugby dreams, I think Madigan would do a great job interchanging between scrum-half and out-half; he has the snappiest pass I've seen in a long while, he has great awareness of when to break and he even played full-back for Ireland U20s. With him and McFadden on the bench, you'd have decent cover for all positions.

He has played full back at every level. Think he was there at schools originally with James Power at 10 although I’m open to correction on that. He has started for Leinster there too at senior and A level. Don’t think he’d make it as a scrum half though. Not sure he has the organisational side to his game to structure an attack and move the forwards around. I think he’s best with a defensive line in front of him where he’s able to assess it and have a cut.

irishbucsfan

Who would our backup tighthead be then?

jacothelad

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Who would our backup tighthead be then?

In terms of those who can actually at least pretend to be tight heads we have.

Buckley....now that is a pretence but being honest he's streets ahead of Archer. 4 / 10

Then we have Archer....who is a very poor t.h. so far in his development. 2 / 10

Deccie Fitzpatrick who is certainly the most experienced and probably the best / least useless of the Irish tight heads. Has rarely let Ulster down. 6 /10

Loughney gets a lot of support from Connacht guys but notwithstanding there admirably loyalty to him he is no great shakes at t.h. Maybe he will become better 4 /10

Andress. Can be very good. Can be crap. 6 / 10

Hagan...Buckley MkII on this years evidence 4 / 10

Macklin..........Along with a few other young guys, Moore, Furlong etc, looks to be heading in the right direction but hasn't started a game for Ulster yet.

Out of all of these for example, if I had to choose one of them to start for Ulster v. Edinburgh, it would be between Fitzpatrick and Andress.

bilston

Hagz wrote: »

Yeh but he picked up an injury remember?

When did he pick up the injury though? We're told he picked it up in the first scrum...if that's the case he shouldn't have stayed on until the 35th minute or however long it was.

Listen I'm not for a minute trying to have a go at Ross who i think is integral to Ireland. I'm just suggesting it's a bit silly to consign Court to the annals of test rugby history on the back of one game played out of position...especially when there is nobody else remotely good enough to fill his boots.

bilston

thebaz wrote: »

whats your reasoning , Court is better than Ross as a test prop

I think you know perfectly well that that's not what I'm trying to say.