Ireland Tour to New Zealand 2012 Discussion thread

Shelflife

Its a perfect time to be playing NZ

---

if youre kidney.

He will need to bring a squad of seasoned campaigners, not the time to be making wholesale changes in squad or playing style.

Even if he brings zebo and madigan etc the closest they will get to a jersey is if they are washing them.

Sure you couldnt play an inexperienced player against NZ.

Perfect for deccie, no changes all the old hands in the team (experience needed) will def see ogara start at least one test.

Dire for the team, as i said in another thread good first game, poor second game patched up team brave in a bad defeat in the 3rd game.

Overall another 3 defeats , nothing learned and one or two injuries picked up and a reputation or two taking another plumment.

Our only hope is if carter is out and they totally underestimate us.

I fear the worst for this tour.

part time punk

WeeBushy wrote: »

It's daft that you don't have 8 subs for all competitions. All it does is exacerbate the problems across the board with scrums. Why force Court to come on at TH when you could just add an extra prop to the bench? Th and and LH are two completely different and specialist positions. Why can't the subs bench reflect this?

Is there anything to stop you having full front row cover on the bench though? You could just have one other forward on the bench that can play second row or in the back row

Edit - just seen Jaco's post above

GerM

part time punk wrote: »

Is there anything to stop you having full front row cover on the bench though? You could just have one other forward on the bench that can play second row or in the back row

Nope. French club teams particularly did it for years. Obviously don't see it now but they used to bring on an entirely new front row after 55 minutes and have a utility back and one half back on the bench. Just requires someone to be able to cover an additional position in the backs like Isaac Boss. Absolutely nothing to stop DK doing it. It only makes sense to really do it though if you have a good loosehead and a good tighthead to bring on to really go at the opposition which Ireland don't have. Otherwise, you've a prop sitting there that might be able to come in and not totally capitulate if Ross gets injured.

TheKeenMachine

jacothelad wrote: »

It all began quite well and then you put in:


Marcus Horan; Stephen Archer

You'd be better off with Ethel the Tea lady. As you say later, you have no idea about the front row. You actually didn't need to admit it.

On the subject of having a tight head and a loose head on the bench, there is nothing to stop Kidney having 2 props - except I have the sinking sensation that I got when I saw Archer's name in the Wolfhounds side. Can you imagine Archer against a real international loosehead? If a coach can't see that a player is totally inept - how and why is he a coach?

Feel like a right fool now:o My mistake

totallegend

Putting two props on the bench would be a good idea if we had a back-up TH. But we don't.

In my rugby dreams, I think Madigan would do a great job interchanging between scrum-half and out-half; he has the snappiest pass I've seen in a long while, he has great awareness of when to break and he even played full-back for Ireland U20s. With him and McFadden on the bench, you'd have decent cover for all positions.

GerM

totallegend wrote: »

In my rugby dreams, I think Madigan would do a great job interchanging between scrum-half and out-half; he has the snappiest pass I've seen in a long while, he has great awareness of when to break and he even played full-back for Ireland U20s. With him and McFadden on the bench, you'd have decent cover for all positions.

He has played full back at every level. Think he was there at schools originally with James Power at 10 although I’m open to correction on that. He has started for Leinster there too at senior and A level. Don’t think he’d make it as a scrum half though. Not sure he has the organisational side to his game to structure an attack and move the forwards around. I think he’s best with a defensive line in front of him where he’s able to assess it and have a cut.

irishbucsfan

Who would our backup tighthead be then?

jacothelad

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Who would our backup tighthead be then?

In terms of those who can actually at least pretend to be tight heads we have.

Buckley....now that is a pretence but being honest he's streets ahead of Archer. 4 / 10

Then we have Archer....who is a very poor t.h. so far in his development. 2 / 10

Deccie Fitzpatrick who is certainly the most experienced and probably the best / least useless of the Irish tight heads. Has rarely let Ulster down. 6 /10

Loughney gets a lot of support from Connacht guys but notwithstanding there admirably loyalty to him he is no great shakes at t.h. Maybe he will become better 4 /10

Andress. Can be very good. Can be crap. 6 / 10

Hagan...Buckley MkII on this years evidence 4 / 10

Macklin..........Along with a few other young guys, Moore, Furlong etc, looks to be heading in the right direction but hasn't started a game for Ulster yet.

Out of all of these for example, if I had to choose one of them to start for Ulster v. Edinburgh, it would be between Fitzpatrick and Andress.

bilston

Hagz wrote: »

Yeh but he picked up an injury remember?

When did he pick up the injury though? We're told he picked it up in the first scrum...if that's the case he shouldn't have stayed on until the 35th minute or however long it was.

Listen I'm not for a minute trying to have a go at Ross who i think is integral to Ireland. I'm just suggesting it's a bit silly to consign Court to the annals of test rugby history on the back of one game played out of position...especially when there is nobody else remotely good enough to fill his boots.

bilston

thebaz wrote: »

whats your reasoning , Court is better than Ross as a test prop

I think you know perfectly well that that's not what I'm trying to say.

leonard7

there could be an argument for having ryan or touhy on the bench (as cover for both 2nd row and backrow) the other starting as they have been used in the backrow when necessary...unlike DOC they can also play a full 80 mins if needs be which would allow the inclusion of another prop on the bench

thebaz

I'd bring Madigan -

2 questions -

Is it too early for Dom Ryan , hasn't played much this year ?

What has happened to Buckley , is he playing dire or not playing ?

irishbucsfan

I personally don't think we have a tighthead worth messing up our bench for at the moment. I don't believe any other tighthead in Ireland would bea ny better than Court against the Allblacks (apart from the man himself obviously). If Fitzpatrick was up to it though, an Interesting team might be:

Healy, Best, Ross, Ryan, O'Connell, Ferris, O'Brien, Heaslip, Reddan, Sexton, Earls, Wallace, O'Driscoll, Fitzgerald, Kearney

Cronin, Court, Fitzpatrick, Tuohy, Murray, O'Gara, McFadden. With Tuohy/Ryan coviering 2nd row and back row.

freyners

jacothelad wrote:

Loughney gets a lot of support from Connacht guys but notwithstanding there admirably loyalty to him he is no great shakes at t.h. Maybe he will become better 4 /10

it aint blind loyalty though
if you have been watching him recently you would have him higher than 4/10. He put the munster scrum in its place recently. If he can hold up v ulster this weekend v court he'll have to be first choice for the dual prop role

WeeBushy

thebaz wrote: »

Is it too early for Dom Ryan , hasn't played much this year?

I think so. I'm one of his biggest fans, but he's been injured for a lot of the season and isn't back playing his best. He won't get too many more chances going into the business end of the season.

While I think he could be a future international, bringing him on a tour to New Zealand when he's not in form could be detrimental to his development. There are a lot of back row players playing regularly and in form that deserve to go over him imo.

thebaz wrote: »

What has happened to Buckley , is he playing dire or not playing ?

He's only started 6 games this season and come on as a sub in another five, according to espn. His sale sharks profile makes for a funny read, however :pac:

Steve Diamond's first signing after making his return to Sale Sharks, Tony arrived with a big reputation - and a stature to match. Weighing in at over 20stone, the man they call 'Mushy' is one of the heaviest players in the professional game and as you would expect of a man of his standing is a destructive scrummager and a real danger when he gets momentum in the loose. Signed on a three-year deal from Munster, who he joined from Connacht in 2005, Tony made his Ireland debut in 2007 and has been in and around the international squad ever since. Speaking as he unveiled his new signing, Diamond said: "This is a statement of intent of what Sale Sharks want to achieve. We want to build a team around a dominant pack of forwards.

http://www.salesharks.com/SharksSquadDetail/article/2408327/name/Tony%20Buckley

CatFromHue

WeeBushy wrote: »

He's only started 6 games this season and come on as a sub in another five, according to espn. His sale sharks profile makes for a funny read, however :pac:

I think he's also on 4 + 1 in the Amlin and 1 + 2 in the LV Cup so a total of 11 + 8 in total for them. Considering how often he gets sick/injured that's not a bad appearance rate for him.

CatFromHue

England have announced that they'll play two mid week games on their tour to SA today.

Just checking on the Welsh website and they've arranged a game against the Brumbies between the first and second test.

Both England and Wales will also play Saturday, i.e. first team, games against the BaBas before they go on tour.

I think we're missing out by only playing tests in NZ. Coupled with the must win games at home to SA and Arg in November I doubt there will be much development of players. Both the game against the BaBas in England in May and the A game against Fiji in November will be purely A team games and so there will be little mixing between the first and second Ireland team. In my opinion the best way to develop a player is to give him game time with first team guys. This isn't going to happen anytime soon.

bamboozle

CatFromHue wrote: »

England have announced that they'll play two mid week games on their tour to SA today.

Just checking on the Welsh website and they've arranged a game against the Brumbies between the first and second test.

Both England and Wales will also play Saturday, i.e. first team, games against the BaBas before they go on tour.

I think we're missing out by only playing tests in NZ. Coupled with the must win games at home to SA and Arg in November I doubt there will be much development of players. Both the game against the BaBas in England in May and the A game against Fiji in November will be purely A team games and so there will be little mixing between the first and second Ireland team. In my opinion the best way to develop a player is to give him game time with first team guys. This isn't going to happen anytime soon.

a lot of our front line players will potentially be going to NZ soon after HC and rabo finals, 3 test matches will be tough enough.

snow mad

If the only changes we see to the team are enforced who can we expect to see involved.

INJURED

fitz- wasnt there for the six nations
bowe- earls back to the wing hopefully leaving a space for cave to travel
o connell- for me it has to be touthy
ferris- henry to take his place on team with SOB switching sides

could think of a few more players that could do with a break but that wont happen

siltirocker

Props - Healy, Wilkinson, Court, Ross & Loughney
If Wilkinson is injured I'd bring Fitzpatrick. I don't think any other prop deserves to be the plane. Lads who don't feature in their provincal 22, shouldn't feature in the national 22.

Hookers - Best, Cronin & A.N. Other
(Strauss for the Baa Baa's game, maybe. For all this Sherry love, I'm not convinced.

Locks - Ryan, McCarthy, Tuohy & Toner
Best 4 available, simple as.

Back Row - Muldoon, O'Mahony, Henry, Heaslip & O'Brien
Same as above. Ryan doesn't deserve to be on the plane ahead of Muldoon or Henry who were their province's players of the year.

Scrum Half - Reddan, Marshall & Boss
Murray will travel. I think these 3 have been better than him this season. Although I do reckon he has the potential to be better, so maybe he should be on the plane.

Fly Half - Sexton, Madigan & Keatley
I can imagine Kidney will pick Sexton & ROG, with Wallace as 3rd Outhalf.

Centre Back - Wallace, Cave, D'Arcy & BOD
Earls and McFadden also to be considered from the wing.

Wingers - Earls, Trimble, McFadden, AN. Other
O'Halloran, Kearney, Gilroy or Zebo? Each has their own preference (I'd be O'Halloran or Kearney myself). If Zebo goes, Fionn Carr should be ripping about not touring last year or the year before as they are the exact same player.


Full Back - Kearney & Duffy
Duffy was arguably one of the best Full backs in Europe this year. But he has never been selected for a competitive match by Kidney. I can't imagine that changing.

Tox56

Duffy was selected for the Wolfhounds and was pretty poor, but there are no real alternatives, although he has been playing well for Connacht.

siltirocker

Tox56 wrote: »

Duffy was selected for the Wolfhounds and was pretty poor, but there are no real alternatives, although he has been playing well for Connacht.

Poor at centre, if I remember correctly. Kidney is forever playing him at centre, where he played a bit at for Harlequins but hasn't really featured for 5 years.

its_phil

siltirocker wrote: »

Poor at centre, if I remember correctly. Kidney is forever playing him at centre, where he played a bit at for Harlequins but hasn't really featured for 5 years.

No he played at full back and was very poor. It was his worst game in what was a very good season. Pity he did it in an Ireland jersey with everyone watching.

irishbucsfan

Strauss definitely won't be playing against the BaaBaas

siltirocker

its_phil wrote: »

No he played at full back and was very poor. It was his worst game in what was a very good season. Pity he did it in an Ireland jersey with everyone watching.

Ian Keatley syndrome.

siltirocker

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Strauss definitely won't be playing against the BaaBaas

I thought because of the lack of caps involved this may have been a possibility.

its_phil

siltirocker wrote: »

Back Row - Muldoon, O'Mahony, Henry, Heaslip & O'Brien
Same as above. Ryan doesn't deserve to be on the plane ahead of Muldoon or Henry who were their province's players of the year.

Scrum Half - Reddan, Marshall & Boss
Murray will travel. I think these 3 have been better than him this season. Although I do reckon he has the potential to be better, so maybe he should be on the plane.

Wingers - Earls, Trimble, McFadden, AN. Other
O'Halloran, Kearney, Gilroy or Zebo? Each has their own preference (I'd be O'Halloran or Kearney myself).

I don't think people are calling for Ryan to go, they are looking for him to play in the Wolfhounds game with the Barbarians which I think is a good idea. It gives us a look at a different type of 7 we currently don't have in this country.

Murray doesn't not deserve to go and I don't think Marshall has done enough to take his place.

I wouldn't take either of O'Halloran or Zebo. I'd have one of them playing against the Barbarians with Gilroy or Kearney going to New Zealand.

irishbucsfan

siltirocker wrote: »

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Strauss definitely won't be playing against the BaaBaas

I thought because of the lack of caps involved this may have been a possibility.

Hell be playing in the RDP12 final 2 days before

Fishooks12

Lads the BaBaa's game is not a Wolfhounds game just so ye know

its_phil

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Lads the BaBaa's game is not a Wolfhounds game just so ye know

Sorry thats my fault. Suppose it's the way I'm looking at the match personally. It kind of feels like the build up to the England Saxons game a while ago, so therefore my confusion.

It may as well be, it's not like it's a test match. It won't be a full team out and I'm sure there will be experiments so it could well have been a Wolfhound game if they weren't trying to sell out Kingsholm.

totallegend

siltirocker wrote: »

I thought because of the lack of caps involved this may have been a possibility.

It's technically a possibility (i.e. he doesn't have to Ireland-eligible), but unless Aaron Dundon gets a miracle call-up for the Rabo final, the hookers against the BaaBaas will be Best and Sherry. Or is Varley back in contention after his injury?

RoundBox11

Anyone reckon theres a chance some of the lads playing in England atm might be called over to train with the team with the possibility of making the 22 for the Babas game?

Guys like Roger Wilson, John Andress or Ryan Caldwell.

Given the severe lack of options in the backrow for the babas game given that none of the leinster lads will be available and Ferris almost definitely won't be either, it could be good to bring in Wilson. Who else would be included in the backrow otherwise? It'd probs be Muldoon, O'Mahony and Henry but who'd bench? Faloon?

WeeBushy

RoundBox11 wrote: »

Given the severe lack of options in the backrow for the babas game given that none of the leinster lads will be available and Ferris almost definitely won't be either, it could be good to bring in Wilson. Who else would be included in the backrow otherwise? It'd probs be Muldoon, O'Mahony and Henry but who'd bench? Faloon?

There's plenty of options in the back row for the baabaas game.

Connacht: Muldoon, McCarthy
Ulster: Henry
Munster: O'Mahony, Caughlan, Ronan (is he fit? Wouldn't have him myself but Kidney seems to like him).
Leinster: Dominic Ryan and Ruddock (or whichever two back row players don't get picked for the rabo final)

That's 8 that spring to mind as players that could conceivably be picked based in Ireland.

RoundBox11

WeeBushy wrote: »

There's plenty of options in the back row for the baabaas game.

Connacht: Muldoon, McCarthy
Ulster: Henry
Munster: O'Mahony, Caughlan, Ronan (is he fit? Wouldn't have him myself but Kidney seems to like him).
Leinster: Dominic Ryan and Ruddock (or whichever two back row players don't get picked for the rabo final)

That's 8 that spring to mind as players that could conceivably be picked based in Ireland.

I thought i read that none of the leinster squad players would be picked. Theyd have to be training with Leinster so when would they get to train with the irish lads?

Are Ronan and Caughlan not still injured?

Did McCarthy not get a cited for gouging which would mean he would be unavailable??

irishbucsfan

RoundBox11 wrote: »

WeeBushy wrote: »

There's plenty of options in the back row for the baabaas game.

Connacht: Muldoon, McCarthy
Ulster: Henry
Munster: O'Mahony, Caughlan, Ronan (is he fit? Wouldn't have him myself but Kidney seems to like him).
Leinster: Dominic Ryan and Ruddock (or whichever two back row players don't get picked for the rabo final)

That's 8 that spring to mind as players that could conceivably be picked based in Ireland.

I thought i read that none of the leinster squad players would be picked. Theyd have to be training with Leinster so when would they get to train with the irish lads?

Are Ronan and Caughlan not still injured?

Did McCarthy not get a cited for gouging which would mean he would be unavailable??

Yes to all of those. Unlikely any of those would be involved

Fishooks12

Touhy will now more than likely get a start, hopefully he forces Kidneys hand

danthefan

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Touhy will now more than likely get a start, hopefully he forces Kidneys hand

How do you figure? DOC and Ryan are both available aren't they?

WeeBushy

Has there been an announcement that no Leinster players will be involved?

Because I would imagine they would know early on in the week who is going to play in the rabo final, so those not involved and capable of playing (ie. not BOD etc.) could train with the Irish team?

WeeBushy

danthefan wrote: »

How do you figure? DOC and Ryan are both available aren't they?

Ryan might be needed in the backrow?

CIARAN_BOYLE

WeeBushy wrote: »

There's plenty of options in the back row for the baabaas game.

Connacht: Muldoon, McCarthy
Ulster: Henry
Munster: O'Mahony, Caughlan, Ronan (is he fit? Wouldn't have him myself but Kidney seems to like him).
Leinster: Dominic Ryan and Ruddock (or whichever two back row players don't get picked for the rabo final)

That's 8 that spring to mind as players that could conceivably be picked based in Ireland.

Ronan and Coghlan are still inured, I doubt Ruddock and Ryan will be let off to go to Ireland, they will be training with their province. I'd have Muldoon, POM, Henry, and have McCarthy covering the back row from the bench

4 Ryan
5 Touhy
6 Muldoon
7 Henry
8 POM

18 DOC
19 McCarthy

Although I wouldn't be against calling up Wilson to wear 19 with McCarthy covering lock

irishbucsfan

I'd imagine McCarthy will be banned by then

Fireball07

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Ronan and Coghlan are still inured, I doubt Ruddock and Ryan will be let off to go to Ireland, they will be training with their province. I'd have Muldoon, POM, Henry, and have McCarthy covering the back row from the bench

4 Ryan
5 Touhy
6 Muldoon
7 Henry
8 POM

18 DOC
19 McCarthy

Although I wouldn't be against calling up Wilson to wear 19 with McCarthy covering lock

That's a pretty good side imo, considering all the players not available.

WeeBushy

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Ronan and Coghlan are still inured, I doubt Ruddock and Ryan will be let off to go to Ireland, they will be training with their province. I'd have Muldoon, POM, Henry, and have McCarthy covering the back row from the bench

4 Ryan
5 Touhy
6 Muldoon
7 Henry
8 POM

18 DOC
19 McCarthy

Although I wouldn't be against calling up Wilson to wear 19 with McCarthy covering lock

I like that team considering. He could also take a different composition of the bench and have Ryan covering backrow, with 2 specialist props on the bench, seeing as that's the position we need players getting gametime the most.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I'd imagine McCarthy will be banned by then

Any idea when his hearing is?

tiger_cub

WeeBushy wrote: »

Any idea when his hearing is?

Hearing was today it seems. Cleared so he will be available for selection.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sports/rugby/2012/0514/1224316122451.html

irishbucsfan

Jesus thats a massive relief. I thought it was very unlikely he'd be cleared. I'd have him starting so.

bilston

So is the preliminary squad announced today? Someone said it was going to be yesterday and then someone else said it was being delayed 24 hours. Anyone know?

RoundBox11

bilston wrote: »

So is the preliminary squad announced today? Someone said it was going to be yesterday and then someone else said it was being delayed 24 hours. Anyone know?

It better be really. Given that its only a squad for that one barbarians match and the actual touring squad wont be named for another week or so (if were lucky) despite the fact that most of the other countries have named their actual touring squads already.

I don't see what the big delay is really. I mean almost all of the possible players will be included in the squad anyway (given that there'll be no leinster lads) so whats the hold up?

RoundBox11

Squad announced:

Ireland Squad (v Barbarians, Gloucester, May 29th):
Forwards (13):
Rory Best (Banbridge-Ulster)
Tom Court (Malone-Ulster)
Stephen Ferris (Dungannon-Ulster)
Declan Fitzpatrick (Dungannon-Ulster)*
Chris Henry (Belfast Harlequins-Ulster)
Ronan Loughney (Galwegians-Connacht)*
John Muldoon (Galwegians-Connacht)
Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution-Munster)
Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution-Munster)
Donnacha Ryan (Shannon-Munster)
Mike Sherry (Garryowen-Munster)*
Dan Tuohy (Ballymena-Ulster)
A.N.Other

Backs (11):
Darren Cave (Belfast Harlequins-Ulster)
Keith Earls (Young Munster-Munster)
Craig Gilroy (Dungannon-Ulster)*
Paul Marshall (Ballynahinch-Ulster)*
Conor Murray (Garryowen-Munster)
Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution-Munster)
Nevin Spence (Ballynahinch-Ulster)*
Andrew Trimble (Ballymena-Ulster)
Paddy Wallace (Ballymena-Ulster)
Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution)*
A.N. Other


I would imagine itl be Mike McCarthy as the extra forward and Felix Jones as the extra back

twinytwo

Hagz wrote: »

Just looking at your squad
I wouldn't take Archer. I'd take Macklin if we're to take a young tight-head.

Don't think Ryan deserves to travel based on how little he's featured this season, I think Coughlan deserves to travel ahead of him, although Coughlan is injured so if he can't go I'd like to see Ruddock go instead.

How you can leave out Reddan is beyond me

Doubt he'll leave D'Arcy behind, I'd also take Wallace and Cave and have McFadden travel as wing option(not that I'd play him on the wing, I'd have him come as a centre who can cover wing)

Looking at your back-three makes me grimace. Hurley shouldn't go, nor should Zebo.

My choice
LH: Healy, Court
HK: Best, Cronin, Sherry
TH: Ross, Macklin
LK: O'Connell, Ryan, Tuohy, O'Callaghan
FK: Ferris, O'Brien, Henry, O'Mahony
N8: Heaslip, Coughlan
SH: Reddan, Boss, Murray
OH: Sexton, Madigan, O'Gara
CT: D'Arcy, Wallace, Cave, O'Driscoll
WG: Earls, Trimble, Fitzgerald, McFadden
FB: Kearney, Jones

to be totally honest i wouldnt take rog, darcy or trimble and i think poc should be left recover

RoundBox11

MOD can we get this thread merged with the other Tour thread? makes no sense having two the same