Ireland Tour to New Zealand 2012 Discussion thread

Fishooks12

Deleted User wrote: »

here ya go - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=78557829

There was a time when Heaslip would get back to back MotM awards for 6 weeks at a time. This was when his role in the side meant he was massively visible, involved in everything good about our pack.

Just because he's not the best player on the park every single game doesn't mean that he's playing poorly, and he's certainly far far better at 8 than any other options!

I think you're even selling him short a but there Emmet. He was close to the best player on the park several times in the last few games

I still think he's the best 8 bar Parrise in the NH

rrpc

Clegg wrote: »

We got rid of our backs coach last year and were told that it wasn't possible to get a new one right away. Well it's been almost a year since the WC and we still haven't gotten a backs coach. It's a shocking state if affairs imo.

We've managed to get a scrum coach pretty damn sharpish all the same.

snow mad

fitz wrote: »

Fishhook12 nailed the starting team a few pages back. It's so predictable, and anyone who thinks he's going to change, or that the way the team is being told to play is going to improve, is just being naive at this point. Kidney has shown for three years that he will not change. There's no point in getting wound up about it, we just have to put up with it.

Have calls for a french style mutiny ever been made would it really be possible with the central contracts

shuffol

Heaslips form is fine but I'd still like to see some rotation at 8 in this tour. Maybe SOB to 8 with Henry at 7.

yimrsg

Heaslip and Talei were the two standout 8's in the HC, they had the duopoly on 8 in the HC dream team in one of the Sunday papers. Talei got plaudits because he carried so well and made the most yards out of any forward in the competition whilst Heaslip was lauded for his defensive qualities and more complete all round game.

The notion for dropping a player to motivate them to play better is baffling considering Heaslip's form has been improving steadily as clearly seen in the HC final. Why drop a player when they're improving, surely you do it when they're form is at a low?

trackguy

I don't think Heaslip is offering enough in attack. I've said it already. I don't think he gains enough yards with the ball-in-hand anymore.

I'd prefer to see him taking the ball on more, although as you rightly pointed out, he is probably missing out as there are other superb ball carriers in Leinster/ Ireland teams.

I'd like to see him offload more. Alot of instances stick out to me of him taking the ball to ground when the offload option is there.

Maybe I'm being harsh in suggesting he be dropped but I think he isn't at his best (and I'm not expecting MOTM 6 matches in a row as Emmet seems to suggest)

I haven't been a fan of SOB over Heaslip at 8 previously. This is mainly due to the under-appreciated aspects of the 8, as opposed to the more obvious ball-carrying. Things like decision making at the back of the scrum.

However, with POM/ SOB and Ferris playing so well (better than Heaslip imo) I thought that combination would be worth a go.

Tox56

http://www.irishtimes.com/sports/rugby/2012/0521/1224316491281.html

Comfirmation, as if we needed any, no experimenting on the tour.

“We ask (New Zealand) to play with full-strength sides when they come here so we have to honour them and do the same over there.

But more interestingly:

“Going to New Zealand for a three-match tour, which Ireland have never done before, will be a great learning experience. But they’ve had to do it on the back of results because this isn’t the place for the faint of heart.

And what exactly will we learn?

rrpc

Fishooks12 wrote: »

I think you're even selling him short a but there Emmet. He was close to the best player on the park several times in the last few games

I still think he's the best 8 bar Parrise in the NH

And Parisse can be an unbelievable show pony who believes everything should revolve around him.

Whereas Heaslip when tasked with doing the heavy grunt work, just got stuck in and made no fuss about it.

I kinda had a wry smile when people were complaining about his pink boots. I think he's wearing them to make sure people know where he is, likewise the new hairstyle, he's a little more visible in the rucks now.

But the real sign of where he's at was that little shot of him after VdM's try; absolutely wound up egging his team mates on. With five minutes left on the clock and the game fully in the bag and he was as fired up as when he came on to the pitch first.

I just refer to the Heaslip bashers as Hookites. They're usually the same crew who think we don't have a 'genuine seven' and say Jonny Sexton can't kick. :rolleyes:

WeeBushy

I think the problem with Kidney is that he brings a club mentality to international coaching. At club level the coach develops a close squad that he works with day in day out and knows them well. International rugby is more transient with form and a greater pool of players creating more change in the squads. But Kidney doesn't adopt this approach, resulting in the same players always being picked. Although, club rugby is changing now with bigger squads and more change to the teams that play.

trackguy

rrpc wrote: »

I just refer to the Heaslip bashers as Hookites. They're usually the same crew who think we don't have a 'genuine seven' and say Jonny Sexton can't kick. :rolleyes:

Christ. Question one player and get lambasted as Hookite-Sexton hater. Got to love the rugby forum!

rrpc

Tox56 wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/sports/rugby/2012/0521/1224316491281.html

Comfirmation, as if we needed any, no experimenting on the tour.

“We ask (New Zealand) to play with full-strength sides when they come here so we have to honour them and do the same over there."

But more interestingly:
“Going to New Zealand for a three-match tour, which Ireland have never done before, will be a great learning experience. But they’ve had to do it on the back of results because this isn’t the place for the faint of heart. "

And what exactly will we learn?

That first quote is a total cop out. Nothing stopping them benching a few new players and giving them a shot. After all, the ABs are fielding a relatively new squad.

The second part of the second quote is unfathomable...

rrpc

trackguy wrote: »

Christ. Question one player and get lambasted as Hookite-Sexton hater. Got to love the rugby forum!

No just trot out the usual unsupported cliches and you'll get called on it. Simples.

trackguy

rrpc wrote: »

No just trot out the usual unsupported cliches and you'll get called on it. Simples.

The only "unsupported cliche" is you calling me a Heaslip basher. Pick out just one of my posts and show me where I "bashed" Heaslip.

profitius

I don't think Heaslip should be the starting 8 all the time. Its got nothing to do with his personality but personally, I'd prefer to see a harder running 8. Yes Heaslip is good at the things he does but hes not a perfect player. I'd like to see some rotation. Theres some very good playes there each with different skillsets and rotating the team a little more wouldn't do any harm.

Mike Ross surely can't be asked to play all 3 games. Fitzpatrick should get an hours run out over the course of the 3 games.

As a Munster fan I think Kidney is very much favouring Munster players. Once again it leaves you to question his ability to coach the national team. Selections should be made on playing ability alone.

Simon Zebo, DOC and ROG have to be the luckiest players there. ROG hasn't played a good game in I dunno how long (a few drop goals only papered over the cracks), same with DOC and Zebo costs as many tries as he scores. Dave Kearney was way better for the Ireland A team, broke into the 6 nations squad, has played better since and now is dropped.

durkadurka

The kidney clock

http://t.co/OzCREB5B

Ardillaun

What I like about Zebo is his pace. The other players, while more reliable and better defenders, are outmatched in every way by the AB back three, Kearney's catching excepted. NZ are like France but better - playing now without the absurd pressure heaped on their shoulders at world cup time - and we have to find some way of disrupting their rhythm. Zebo might just be able to do that. I'd like to see him get a chance in Test III, especially if we are already done for.

donfers

TomLamp wrote: »

1.Healy
2.Best
3.Ross
4.Touhy
5.Toner
6.Ferris
7.O'Brien
8.Heaslip
9.Reddan
10.Sexton
11.Trimble
12.D'arcy
13.O'Driscoll
14.McFadden
15.Kearney

Leinster team with Best, Ferris and Trimble thrown in. If that team could play the Leinster way we could beat the All Blacks.

Toner ahead of POC, let's stick Danny Barnes in for BOD while we're at it

Clegg

We have players going into this tour that won't be 100% fit. Ferris, BOD, POC all have knocks. Then there will be players that will pick up knocks during the games against the All Blacks.This is why I'm amazed we're only bringing 29 players on tour. By the time the 3rd test rolls around we'll probably be fielding a side severely weakened by injuries to key players.

I shudder to think what the All Blacks would do to that team.

rrpc

trackguy wrote: »

The only "unsupported cliche" is you calling me a Heaslip basher. Pick out just one of my posts and show me where I "bashed" Heaslip.

Where did I refer to you at all?

You doth protest too much methinks

But since you ask:

trackguy wrote: »

8 - Heaslip is still underpar imo and SOB is the only other option. Heaslip needs a boot but he's untouchable it seems.

Sean O'Brien is not an 8 by the way. Has not played there all season, the replacement 8s for Leinster are Leo Auva'a and Rhys Ruddock.

totallegend

Clegg wrote: »

We have players going into this tour that won't be 100% fit. Ferris, BOD, POC all have knocks. Then there will be players that will pick up knocks during the games against the All Blacks.This is why I'm amazed we're only bringing 29 players on tour. By the time the 3rd test rolls around we'll probably be fielding a side severely weakened by injuries to key players.

I shudder to think what the All Blacks would do to that team.

Also, ROG allegedly had an injury that ruled him out of the latter stages of the Rabo...

d-gal

Just on the Heaslip matter. His attacking play is gone backwards, his offloads have been poor and he now offers pretty much nothing from the back of the scrum. That is all compared to his standard of play a few years ago.
He has been excellent in defence recently and his ability to slow down ball at the breakdown has been brilliant. He has always been good at this, even a few years ago its just more experience has helped him improve his play in the tight
Overall view is that the Heaslip of old was a better player compared to the Heaslip of the last 2years.
I personally would prefer an attacking no.8 and I wouldn't mind seeing a combination of Ferris, SOB and POM used at least once in NZ. This stupidity of an Irish set up only have 1 experienced no.8 is crazy. We need different options so we can actually change the gameplan if needed. At least give SOB or POM a game there so we at least have more than 1 option.
Not saying Heaslip should be dropped but by no means should he be one of these undroppable players just because of a particular position not blooded enough (like centre or tighthead prop for us)

d-gal

d-gal wrote: »

His attacking play is gone backwards, his offloads have been poor and he now offers pretty much nothing from the back of the scrum.

Apart from this general subjective answer, that really isn't anything bar Hookisms, can you give examples or even games that you felt that this was true in? Because, to be honest, I could simply just say
"Heaslip's attacking play has been great, his offloading is getting even better and I've never seen him offer more at the back of the scrum" and we'd have a good oul fashioned stalemate.

Did you see the Leinster Clermont game? We got murdered in the scrums, yet turned over very very few balls. Heaslip was insanely good that day.

Did you see the game on the weekend? He carried ball, stole ball relentlessly (check out the build up to the Healy try) and smashed tackle after tackle.

It's strange to me that two of the most high profile games this season he had stormers, but people are still sleighting him. I don't know what more anyone actually wants him doing. If somene said "he needs to be at first receiver more, breaking the gainline and setting the ball up" at least we could discuss why this shouldn't be the case anymore. If someone suggested that he needed to be available in the backline more, so getting more ball in hands, and getting more "showtime" to be more visible, at least we could talk about why again, this shouldn't be the case.

But it's a cop out to say "he's not playing good rugby ."

I have no idea why you'd play 3 blindside flankers against NZ though. With the "most open" of the three at number 8.

rrpc

d-gal wrote: »

Just on the Heaslip matter. His attacking play is gone backwards, his offloads have been poor and he now offers pretty much nothing from the back of the scrum. That is all compared to his standard of play a few years ago.
He has been excellent in defence recently and his ability to slow down ball at the breakdown has been brilliant. He has always been good at this, even a few years ago its just more experience has helped him improve his play in the tight
Overall view is that the Heaslip of old was a better player compared to the Heaslip of the last 2years.
I personally would prefer an attacking no.8 and I wouldn't mind seeing a combination of Ferris, SOB and POM used at least once in NZ. This stupidity of an Irish set up only have 1 experienced no.8 is crazy. We need different options so we can actually change the gameplan if needed. At least give SOB or POM a game there so we at least have more than 1 option.
Not saying Heaslip should be dropped but by no means should he be one of these undroppable players just because of a particular position not blooded enough (like centre or tighthead prop for us)

Oh dear.

Heaslip's role at Leinster is not to make carries into the opposition. That's left to O'Brien and sometimes McLaughlin or Jennings, but not both 6 and 7 at the same time. Heaslip's job is to hit rucks and make sure that Reddan can deliver quick ball which is the meat of Leinster's game.

When you have a SH capable of recycling ruck ball three times in ten seconds (and I've timed Reddan doing this on numerous occasions), you have to have at least one guy (and usually two) in there protecting the ball. Usually that's Heaslip, Cullen and Thorn tag teaming the rucks with any one of D'Arcy, BOD or Jennings/Locky on hand if needed.

You can't admire the speed Leinster have at ruck time without also acknowledging that there's a huge workload for the forwards to make sure that happens. Cian Healy's try was an illustration of exactly how it works. Sean O'Brien made the carry almost to the line and Thorn was in to protect the ball which Reddan delivered almost instantaneously to Healy.

One guy in the ruck, the SH in like a flash and the ball away before Ulster knew what was happening.

d-gal

rrpc wrote: »

d-gal wrote: »

Just on the Heaslip matter. His attacking play is gone backwards, his offloads have been poor and he now offers pretty much nothing from the back of the scrum. That is all compared to his standard of play a few years ago.
He has been excellent in defence recently and his ability to slow down ball at the breakdown has been brilliant. He has always been good at this, even a few years ago its just more experience has helped him improve his play in the tight
Overall view is that the Heaslip of old was a better player compared to the Heaslip of the last 2years.
I personally would prefer an attacking no.8 and I wouldn't mind seeing a combination of Ferris, SOB and POM used at least once in NZ. This stupidity of an Irish set up only have 1 experienced no.8 is crazy. We need different options so we can actually change the gameplan if needed. At least give SOB or POM a game there so we at least have more than 1 option.
Not saying Heaslip should be dropped but by no means should he be one of these undroppable players just because of a particular position not blooded enough (like centre or tighthead prop for us)

Oh dear.

Heaslip's role at Leinster is not to make carries into the opposition. That's left to O'Brien and sometimes McLaughlin or Jennings, but not both 6 and 7 at the same time. Heaslip's job is to hit rucks and make sure that Reddan can deliver quick ball which is the meat of Leinster's game.

When you have a SH capable of recycling ruck ball three times in ten seconds (and I've timed Reddan doing this on numerous occasions), you have to have at least one guy (and usually two) in there protecting the ball. Usually that's Heaslip, Cullen and Thorn tag teaming the rucks with any one of D'Arcy, BOD or Jennings/Locky on hand if needed.

You can't admire the speed Leinster have at ruck time without also acknowledging that there's a huge workload for the forwards to make sure that happens. Cian Healy's try was an illustration of exactly how it works. Sean O'Brien made the carry almost to the line and Thorn was in to protect the ball which Reddan delivered almost instantaneously to Healy.

One guy in the ruck, the SH in like a flash and the ball away before Ulster knew what was happening.

Guess what, Ireland ain't Leinster! We are not talking about heaslip playing for Leinster.

@Emmet - did u even read the post? I said his defence has been good, his attack has been poor. Show you where he has been poor. Show me his attacking play from the back of the scrum, show me his offloads and show me his attacking play in general. Now compare it to a few years back. He should be still well capable of attacking at a scrum time and being a key offloader.
Who would you suggest playing as another option for 8 or do we expect Heaslip to play 240mins in NZ on the back of 2 finals? You called it 3 blindsides yet 1 plays 7 already.
Oh and quit your sh*t with Hookism, you sound like a 5year old kid and Hook has zero to do with my opinion so shut it

You have given no examples whatsoever of a game, a time, an occurence when any of the above is true. Like I said, if to counter your argument I just write the opposite of what you've said, word for word, what difference is there between the two?

I gave two games (again, the biggest games played this year) where he was great, gave examples of what he was great at, even told you where to look for it.

I'm not trying to antagonise you, I'm just fed up seeing it written with absolutely zero base or evidence for it.

edit to add. In a team game, the attacker isn't always the one on the team sheet. Heaslip "attacked" the ruck to steal the ball for Leinster in the build up to Healy's try. Isn't turning over ball one of the best ways to score trys? Isn't it how Leinster scored most of their trys at the weekend?

And Chris Henry and POM have played more time at 8 than SOB this season. Either of those should take the Jersey for some of the tour.

rrpc

d-gal wrote: »

Guess what, Ireland ain't Leinster! We are not talking about heaslip playing for Leinster.

@Emmet - did u even read the post? I said his defence has been good, his attack has been poor. Show you where he has been poor. Show me his attacking play from the back of the scrum, show me his offloads and show me his attacking play in general. Now compare it to a few years back. He should be still well capable of attacking at a scrum time and being a key offloader.
Who would you suggest playing as another option for 8 or do we expect Heaslip to play 240mins in NZ on the back of 2 finals? You called it 3 blindsides yet 1 plays 7 already.
Oh and quit your sh*t with Hookism, you sound like a 5year old kid and Hook has zero to do with my opinion so shut it

You seriously can't be using Ireland as an example of players "not playing well".

On that basis you could pick all of them, I certainly could. However I can see past the performances to the non-existent game plan, the poor selections, the mismatched half backs, the out dated kicking game, the lack of back play, the lack of a backs coach, the constant reshuffling of positions and the jaw-droppingly incongruous playing of players out of position, epitomised by playing Sexton at 12 and ROG at 10.

In those circumstances, criticising an individual player's performance is a bit like criticising the placement of the deckchairs on the Titanic.

d-gal

Alan Creamy Oxygen wrote: »

You have given no examples whatsoever of a game, a time, an occurence when any of the above is true. Like I said, if to counter your argument I just write the opposite of what you've said, word for word, what difference is there between the two?

I gave two games (again, the biggest games played this year) where he was great, gave examples of what he was great at, even told you where to look for it.

I'm not trying to antagonise you, I'm just fed up seeing it written with absolutely zero base or evidence for it.

edit to add. In a team game, the attacker isn't always the one on the team sheet. Heaslip "attacked" the ruck to steal the ball for Leinster in the build up to Healy's try. Isn't turning over ball one of the best ways to score trys? Isn't it how Leinster scored most of their trys at the weekend?

Ok here are simple examples, the quarter final, semi final and final, Heaslip did not attack from Leinsters own scrum with any significance. For the offloading style Leinster offer he has offered little. The examples you require are he doesn't to this often, look at every scrum, he rarely breaks from one now. The whole 6nations he offered nothing with ball in hand and anytime he got the ball he just went to ground. He was appalling against Wales and a absolute disgrace against England (including at least half the team). He had a terrible 6nations
And again, who would you get to be another viable 8? We can't rely on just one

d-gal

d-gal wrote: »

Ok here are simple examples, the quarter final, semi final and final, Heaslip did not attack from Leinsters own scrum with any significance. For the offloading style Leinster offer he has offered little. The examples you require are he doesn't to this often, look at every scrum, he rarely breaks from one now. The whole 6nations he offered nothing with ball in hand and anytime he got the ball he just went to ground. He was appalling against Wales and a absolute disgrace against England (including at least half the team). He had a terrible 6nations
And again, who would you get to be another viable 8? We can't rely on just one

Henry and POM can both play 8, and have both done so this season.

And Heaslip made yards off the scrum on the weekend! You're having a giraffe here.

I'm not going to change your mind, so I'm going to politely step out here. Strange conflict in memories though, thought he had a low key but good 6N. Certainly didn't disgrace himself.

shuffol

Against Ulster Heaslip carried 7 times for a gain of 6 metres, against Clermont he carried 9 times for a gain of 6 metres. I think he's definately got room for improvement especially when you consider that SOB has been more prominent in his role as a 7 in those 2 games.

d-gal

rrpc wrote: »

d-gal wrote: »

Guess what, Ireland ain't Leinster! We are not talking about heaslip playing for Leinster.

@Emmet - did u even read the post? I said his defence has been good, his attack has been poor. Show you where he has been poor. Show me his attacking play from the back of the scrum, show me his offloads and show me his attacking play in general. Now compare it to a few years back. He should be still well capable of attacking at a scrum time and being a key offloader.
Who would you suggest playing as another option for 8 or do we expect Heaslip to play 240mins in NZ on the back of 2 finals? You called it 3 blindsides yet 1 plays 7 already.
Oh and quit your sh*t with Hookism, you sound like a 5year old kid and Hook has zero to do with my opinion so shut it

You seriously can't be using Ireland as an example of players "not playing well".

On that basis you could pick all of them, I certainly could. However I can see past the performances to the non-existent game plan, the poor selections, the mismatched half backs, the out dated kicking game, the lack of back play, the lack of a backs coach, the constant reshuffling of positions and the jaw-droppingly incongruous playing of players out of position, epitomised by playing Sexton at 12 and ROG at 10.

In those circumstances, criticising an individual player's performance is a bit like criticising the placement of the deckchairs on the Titanic.

False. Kearney, ferris, sexton, poc, Ryan, best Healy and Earls all had very good 6nations. They stood out, heaslip definitely did not and had a terrible 6nations