Ireland Tour to New Zealand 2012 Discussion thread

rrpc

d-gal wrote: »

Ok here are simple examples, the quarter final, semi final and final, Heaslip did not attack from Leinsters own scrum with any significance. For the offloading style Leinster offer he has offered little. The examples you require are he doesn't to this often, look at every scrum, he rarely breaks from one now. The whole 6nations he offered nothing with ball in hand and anytime he got the ball he just went to ground. He was appalling against Wales and a absolute disgrace against England (including at least half the team). He had a terrible 6nations
And again, who would you get to be another viable 8? We can't rely on just one

In the quarter final, Heaslip carried eight times for a gain of 30 metres. It was his initial pass that got the move going that ended in BOD scoring under the posts.

And that's just the quarter final.

As for breaking from the back of the scrum, You do know that those breaks are covered (illegally) these days by the opposition flankers unbinding. Refs seldom blow them up, if ever.

As for the 6 nations, the entire team was a shambles. Murray when he played was slower than TOL, the scrum got mullered (illegally) by England and we kicked the ball away to Wales and stood back off them in defence to admire the speed their big centres could get up to given the space we gave them - a direct consequnece of having our defence coach double up as backs coach, tea boy and water carrier :rolleyes:

So the one thing that we're not seeing from Heaslip that he needs to re-integrate into his game to stop him being "terrible" is bullocking runs from the back of the scrum?

That's it?

trackguy

rrpc wrote: »

Where did I refer to you at all?

You doth protest too much methinks

But since you ask:

Sean O'Brien is not an 8 by the way. Has not played there all season, the replacement 8s for Leinster are Leo Auva'a and Rhys Ruddock.

I had a feeling you'd use that 'out.'

Anyway, We are talking about Ireland here, not Leinster.

You're right about SOB, he is first and foremost a 6/7 not an 8.

It just goes to show that regardless of his form, Heaslip will be in the team as no alternatives have been developed.

It's true for many of the positions on the Ireland team.

One last thing, I never bashed Heaslip - I only suggested a scenario where he be dropped.

CIARAN_BOYLE

For Leinster Heaslip sets up moves off the back of the scrum that work. Can I think of the times that he ran a meter or two and offloaded or just passed to Redden and moves worked. Thing is in an Ireland jersey, well what was it Les Kiss said just before the six nations, we aren't going to work on moves off the scrum well that just shows the philosophical difference between the teams.

To be honest I think both Henry and POM should get a start on this tour in a rotated backrow.

Game 1 6Ferris 7SOB 8Heaslip
Game 2 6SOB 7POM 8Heaslip
Game 3 6Ferris 7Henry 8SOB

bamboozle

i think some posters on here are mistaking rugby for bulldog's charge. we cant expect all 15 players on the pitch to tuck the ball under their arm and charge aimlessly into the opposition. A team needs ball carriers but more importantly it needs ball retainers/protectors/pillars when the ball carrier has been tackled to ensure SH receives quick ball.

Heaslip's role has changed for both Ireland and leinster with the emergence of SOB's carrying at Leinster and DK's favouring of Ferris as the main ball carrier for the national team. As a result Heaslip is more and more reverting to the role of supporting the ball carrier by hitting rucks and ensuring quick ruck ball for the SH.

Seriously, Leinster have won the HC 3 times in 4 years, Heaslip must be doing something right.

I've no problem seeing different back row combinations but given DK's inate conservatism i dont expect to see much rotation in this tour. Although i really hope that Touhy gets to start, he could really add some much needed dog to our pack.

On a more worrying note, DK said if POC doesnt make the tour he'll be replaced by Cullen. Surely with Ryan, DOC and Touhy already in squad it would be opportunity for Tonar, McCarthy or someone younger to join the squad and get some experience.

Teferi

A new Gerry Thornley article in which GT slobbers all over Declan Kidneys balls.

It discusses the All Blacks. And how we should feel sorry for Kidney. Sigh.

irishbucsfan

d-gal wrote: »

Alan Creamy Oxygen wrote: »

You have given no examples whatsoever of a game, a time, an occurence when any of the above is true. Like I said, if to counter your argument I just write the opposite of what you've said, word for word, what difference is there between the two?

I gave two games (again, the biggest games played this year) where he was great, gave examples of what he was great at, even told you where to look for it.

I'm not trying to antagonise you, I'm just fed up seeing it written with absolutely zero base or evidence for it.

edit to add. In a team game, the attacker isn't always the one on the team sheet. Heaslip "attacked" the ruck to steal the ball for Leinster in the build up to Healy's try. Isn't turning over ball one of the best ways to score trys? Isn't it how Leinster scored most of their trys at the weekend?

Ok here are simple examples, the quarter final, semi final and final, Heaslip did not attack from Leinsters own scrum with any significance. For the offloading style Leinster offer he has offered little. The examples you require are he doesn't to this often, look at every scrum, he rarely breaks from one now. The whole 6nations he offered nothing with ball in hand and anytime he got the ball he just went to ground. He was appalling against Wales and a absolute disgrace against England (including at least half the team). He had a terrible 6nations
And again, who would you get to be another viable 8? We can't rely on just one

That's actually amazing.

Heaslip was incredible in the semi final. Even George Hook said it was one of his greatest displays. What do you have against him that you are inventing these supposedly poor performances from?

totallegend

This notion that Heaslip has disimproved is completely wrong, but it is understandable.

He made his name from carrying the ball and making 40-50 metres up the field. However, two things have happened in recent years which have limited that aspect of his game;

1) Defences are becoming tighter and better organised all the time, it's becoming rarer for any forwards to make these sort of line-breaks.
2) Heaslip has been playing with O'Brien and Ferris, guys who have the physical power to just run over guys and make yards that way. That was never really a part of Heaslip's game.

Now, because Heaslip isn't doing that more obvious part as much, it's easy to think he's not contributing.

What Heaslip does excellently is defend, compete at the breakdown and act as a great link between the pack and the backs. He is also by far and away our best option at the base of the scrum in terms of controlling the ball, knowing what to do with it etc.

Or to put it another way, Leinster had the option all season of playing O'Brien at #8 with McLaughlin at 6 and Jennings at 7; how often did they do that?

Or to put it yet another way, while Leinster were on their way to becoming the best team in HC history this season, only two players played every minute of every game; one was Isa Nacewa, guess who the other one was?

rrpc

trackguy wrote: »

I had a feeling you'd use that 'out.'

Anyway, We are talking about Ireland here, not Leinster.

You're right about SOB, he is first and foremost a 6/7 not an 8.

It just goes to show that regardless of his form, Heaslip will be in the team as no alternatives have been developed.

It's true for many of the positions on the Ireland team.

One last thing, I never bashed Heaslip - I only suggested a scenario where he be dropped.

Currently there is no-one better than Heaslip as No. 8. At Leinster; where I think it's universally accepted that Joe Schmidt is one of the best coaches in Europe, Heaslip has the No.1 spot followed by Ruddock and Auva'a. Of the two, Ruddock is probably the most likely to succeed Heaslip, but there's still a bit to go before he's at the same standard. Behind him, there's possibly Jack Conan who'll be on show at the U20 WC if you want to have a look. He's currently about the same height and weight as Heaslip and has much the same mobility.

Coughlan at Munster is at best a stop gap because of his age.

trackguy

I think it is counter-productive to have just 1 real option at 8 for Ireland.

Many posters have been critical of the Ireland set-up, current & past, for playing certain players regardless of form.

My opinion is that Heaslip isn't playing as well as he could and if he was dropped/ rotated (call it what you will) it would hopefully have 2 positive effects

1) developing options in the position
2) provide motivation for Heaslip

trackguy

rrpc wrote: »

Currently there is no-one better than Heaslip as No. 8. At Leinster; where I think it's universally accepted that Joe Schmidt is one of the best coaches in Europe, Heaslip has the No.1 spot followed by Ruddock and Auva'a. Of the two, Ruddock is probably the most likely to succeed Heaslip, but there's still a bit to go before he's at the same standard. Behind him, there's possibly Jack Conan who'll be on show at the U20 WC if you want to have a look. He's currently about the same height and weight as Heaslip and has much the same mobility.

Coughlan at Munster is at best a stop gap because of his age.

Again, we are talking about Ireland. Joe Schmidt is irrelevant.

But since you mentioned coaches... Declan Kidney and his set-up have failed to develop an alternative to Heaslip. He has been the only real option at 8, barring Leamy in the past.

We need to develop another 8 at International level!

Park the argument about form for a minute and this is still true! Heaslip shouldn't be in the team 95% of the time.

If Heaslip does his ankle again where does that leave us? Kidney telling everyone 'well lads, we've been unlucky with injury again.'

All I want to see is a squad being built and options for the present & future being developed.

rrpc

trackguy wrote: »

I think it is counter-productive to have just 1 real option at 8 for Ireland.

Many posters have been critical of the Ireland set-up, current & past, for playing certain players regardless of form.

My opinion is that Heaslip isn't playing as well as he could and if he was dropped/ rotated (call it what you will) it would hopefully have 2 positive effects

1) developing options in the position
2) provide motivation for Heaslip

Without actually providing any real evidence that that is true.

d-gal did her best to back up this opinion and in doing so, just made stuff up.

The only criticism that can be made with any authority is that he doesn't carry off the back of the scrum very much any more, when as a tactic, that play has gone the way of the Dodo.

Only against the weaker teams has this been possible and guess what? Heaslip does it against them. Italy in the 6N springs to mind.

Teferi

trackguy wrote: »

But since you mentioned coaches... Declan Kidney and his set-up have failed to develop an alternative to Heaslip. He has been the only real option at 8, barring Leamy in the past.

Declan Kidney and his set-up have failed to develop an alternative to POC. He has been the only real option at lock, beside DOC.

Declan Kidney and his set-up have failed to develop an alternative to DOC. He has been the only real option at lock, beside POC

Declan Kidney and his set-up have failed to develop an alternative to BOD. He has been the only real option at 13.

Declan Kidney and his set-up have failed to develop an alternative to Darcy. He has been the only real option at 12.

Declan Kidney and his set-up have failed to develop an alternative to Ross. He has been the only real option at tight head.

rrpc

trackguy wrote: »

Again, we are talking about Ireland. Joe Schmidt is irrelevant.

But since you mentioned coaches... Declan Kidney and his set-up have failed to develop an alternative to Heaslip. He has been the only real option at 8, barring Leamy in the past.

We need to develop another 8 at International level!

Park the argument about form for a minute and this is still true! Heaslip shouldn't be in the team 95% of the time.

If Heaslip does his ankle again where does that leave us? Kidney telling everyone 'well lads, we've been unlucky with injury again.'

All I want to see is a squad being built and options for the present & future being developed.

That's a different argument and one you'll find me wholly in agreement with. I've already pointed to the succession planning at Leinster for the No.8 slot, where the future is looking quite healthy.

Pick a position and you'll find that Leinster already have somebody in waiting and somebody else in the academy. Do the same for Ireland and you'll see that the cupboard is extremely bare.

By rights we should be taking a third outhalf to NZ. ROG has said he wants to go on for another two years; fair enough, that's his ambition but it's also the ticking time bomb that tells us that in 2014, we'll be down to one out half and (if things keep going the same way) nobody prepared to step up if Jonny gets injured.

trackguy

I don't think he is carrying/ offloading as well in the loose anymore either.

Totallegend - totally agree on his workrate and defence.

trackguy

Teferi wrote: »

Declan Kidney and his set-up have failed to develop an alternative to ...

Completely agree, I highlighted all of these in an earlier post.

rrpc

trackguy wrote: »

I don't think he is carrying/ offloading as well in the loose anymore either.

Totallegend - totally agree on his workrate and defence.

Do you not understand that the entire back three can't do that?
One or maybe two can do the carries, but not all three. When you've a choice of O'Brien and Ferris for carrying, then you immediately exclude the 8, who is probably in the worst position for carries anyway. Off the back of the scrum, you're completely blind to what's in front of you, the flankers have a far better view and are the obvious choice to carry if needed.

Also, the 8 has to carry from a standing start, can't see who's behind him whereas the SH has a better view, can take the ball, pick the runner and pass to them.

Look at any game of rugby and see how many 8s actually make hard yards fromthe back of the scrum. Most that try get tent-pegged before they get past the opposition SH.

trackguy

rrpc wrote: »

Do you not understand that the entire back three can't do that?
One or maybe two can do the carries, but not all three. When you've a choice of O'Brien and Ferris for carrying, then you immediately exclude the 8, who is probably in the worst position for carries anyway. Off the back of the scrum, you're completely blind to what's in front of you, the flankers have a far better view and are the obvious choice to carry if needed.

Also, the 8 has to carry from a standing start, can't see who's behind him whereas the SH has a better view, can take the ball, pick the runner and pass to them.

Look at any game of rugby and see how many 8s actually make hard yards fromthe back of the scrum. Most that try get tent-pegged before they get past the opposition SH.

Not all 3 backrow players can be prominent in the one game - agreed.

I'm not just talking about the scrum here, I think he could offer more in general attacking play.

I'm being deliberately harsh really but I think Heaslip and the team would be better off if we developed other options at 8.

I'm repeating myself now so I'll leave it at that.

BoardsMember

I wonder how much the players are looking forward to it. At the best of times there would be an element of it being a slightly daunting trip.

smurphy29

What hasn't been mentioned here is just how effective Heaslip is on the ground. He is incredibly hard to remove from the ruck, he's a very smart technical operator around there, and wins a huge amount of turnovers. He's generally an intelligent, disciplined player who rarely gives away penalties for all the work he does at the breakdown. He wins so many turnovers.

I agree that he's had a somewhat quiet season by his usual standards, but he's been pretty effective. If he was wearing the No.7 shirt you'd probably find attitudes would be quite different towards him.

rrpc

trackguy wrote: »

Not all 3 backrow players can be prominent in the one game - agreed.

I'm not just talking about the scrum here, I think he could offer more in general attacking play.

I'm being deliberately harsh really but I think Heaslip and the team would be better off if we developed other options at 8.

I'm repeating myself now so I'll leave it at that.

Most of the time we're not disagreeing.

Under Kidney we will not develop any replacement 8s. Not even if Heaslip is injured. If there were odds on that at Paddy Power, I'd happily put my house on it.

...possibly.

Kidney just looks at the back row as a hand of cards; doesn't matter what order they go in as long as you have three. :rolleyes:

Se he'll have three sevens, two sixes and an eight or any other variation he can think of. Only when he's down to his last three and has no locks that he can convert, will he start looking elsewhere.

Flincher

rrpc wrote: »

Do you not understand that the entire back three can't do that?
One or maybe two can do the carries, but not all three. When you've a choice of O'Brien and Ferris for carrying, then you immediately exclude the 8, who is probably in the worst position for carries anyway. Off the back of the scrum, you're completely blind to what's in front of you, the flankers have a far better view and are the obvious choice to carry if needed.

Also, the 8 has to carry from a standing start, can't see who's behind him whereas the SH has a better view, can take the ball, pick the runner and pass to them.

Look at any game of rugby and see how many 8s actually make hard yards fromthe back of the scrum. Most that try get tent-pegged before they get past the opposition SH.

I don't agree with much of the criticism of Heaslip, but in fairness, 8s can still make decent yards off the back. The likes of Read, Picamoles, Morgan all do it regularly. Actually when Heaslip first came through, he was excellent at it, considering the Leinster pack was hardly the force it is now. As has been mentioned here, the problem is Ireland don't seem to see the scrum as an attacking platform, hence we don't see Heaslip attacking off the base, which he is still well capable of doing.

Just in general, does anyone feel Heaslip is a bit of a sacred cow around here? If anyone questions his game, they are met with a "just because he's not carrying the ball..." stock answer. The tone sometimes seems to be "he's doing other work which you just can't see". Its a bit infuriating because at times in the 6 Nations I felt his breakdown game and workrate was poor as well.

Tox56

Flincher wrote: »

rrpc wrote: »

Do you not understand that the entire back three can't do that?
One or maybe two can do the carries, but not all three. When you've a choice of O'Brien and Ferris for carrying, then you immediately exclude the 8, who is probably in the worst position for carries anyway. Off the back of the scrum, you're completely blind to what's in front of you, the flankers have a far better view and are the obvious choice to carry if needed.

Also, the 8 has to carry from a standing start, can't see who's behind him whereas the SH has a better view, can take the ball, pick the runner and pass to them.

Look at any game of rugby and see how many 8s actually make hard yards fromthe back of the scrum. Most that try get tent-pegged before they get past the opposition SH.

I don't agree with much of the criticism of Heaslip, but in fairness, 8s can still make decent yards off the back. The likes of Read, Picamoles, Morgan all do it regularly. Actually when Heaslip first came through, he was excellent at it, considering the Leinster pack was hardly the force it is now. As has been mentioned here, the problem is Ireland don't seem to see the scrum as an attacking platform, hence we don't see Heaslip attacking off the base, which he is still well capable of doing.

Just in general, does anyone feel Heaslip is a bit of a sacred cow around here? If anyone questions his game, they are met with a "just because he's not carrying the ball..." stock answer. The tone sometimes seems to be "he's doing other work which you just can't see". Its a bit infuriating because at times in the 6 Nations I felt his breakdown game and workrate was poor as well.

That stock answer is the stock answer because it's accurate for 9/10 of complaints. I agree if he does geneuinely have a bad game that response is automatically wheeled out, but I don't think his form has been bad enough for that to matter, he rarely has a genuinely poor game.

The criticism of him went so overboard with all the "showboating" and "Houdini" rubbish, the defence of him has gone a bit over the top as a result.

desertcircus

I sometimes get the feeling that criticism of Heaslip comes almost entirely from Munster fans who remember him trampling all over the pack in the Magners semi two years ago and can't accept that's no longer his role. If he's good enough to be one of two players to play every minute of a Heineken-winning campaign, in a team that has an embarrassment of riches in the backrow, then consider the possibility that the talk of all his less visible work at the breakdown is accurate.

rrpc

Flincher wrote: »

I don't agree with much of the criticism of Heaslip, but in fairness, 8s can still make decent yards off the back. The likes of Read, Picamoles, Morgan all do it regularly. Actually when Heaslip first came through, he was excellent at it, considering the Leinster pack was hardly the force it is now. As has been mentioned here, the problem is Ireland don't seem to see the scrum as an attacking platform, hence we don't see Heaslip attacking off the base, which he is still well capable of doing.

Just in general, does anyone feel Heaslip is a bit of a sacred cow around here? If anyone questions his game, they are met with a "just because he's not carrying the ball..." stock answer. The tone sometimes seems to be "he's doing other work which you just can't see". Its a bit infuriating because at times in the 6 Nations I felt his breakdown game and workrate was poor as well.

I wouldn't disagree with that assessment, but most of the criticism is exactly of the variety you describe and in one case his 'offloads' were criticised. Most of it's very vague and unsubstantiated.

Many of his critics are just parrotting the tripe trotted out by G Hook without giving too much thought to it. Hook seems to have it in for Heaslip because he "tweets too much" or wears the wrong coloured boots :rolleyes:

Teferi

Flincher wrote: »

Just in general, does anyone feel Heaslip is a bit of a sacred cow around here? If anyone questions his game, they are met with a "just because he's not carrying the ball..." stock answer. The tone sometimes seems to be "he's doing other work which you just can't see". Its a bit infuriating because at times in the 6 Nations I felt his breakdown game and workrate was poor as well.

The majority of the people who criticise Heaslip seem to be Munster supporters* with a questionable understanding of the game or a lack of bias so it stands to reason that people would argue with them.

Apart from that, as Emmet has proven, whenever these people are asked for solid proof of his lack of form they are unable to provide any or their attempts to prove it are rubbished because they are talking out of their arse.

*Not trying to start a provincial pissing contest by the way however I have noticed that the largest section criticising him seem to come from the Munster base.

Fishooks12

desertcircus wrote: »

I sometimes get the feeling that criticism of Heaslip comes almost entirely from Munster fans who remember him trampling all over the pack in the Magners semi two years ago and can't accept that's no longer his role. If he's good enough to be one of two players to play every minute of a Heineken-winning campaign, in a team that has an embarrassment of riches in the backrow, then consider the possibility that the talk of all his less visible work at the breakdown is accurate.

Give over that provincial bull****

Any Munster fan with an ion of knowledge about the game knows how well Heaslip is playing

We're not all as spiteful as you'd think

rrpc

Rather than getting all het up about whether or not Heaslip's new boots make him slower, here's something that Gerry Thornley has written in today's IT:

Boss, who failed a pre-match test on the strained quadriceps he suffered in Leinster’s semi-final win over Clermont, should make the plane, though in the event he doesn’t, Tomás O’Leary and Peter Stringer were the contenders Kidney mentioned, not Paul Marshall.

Now, there's something to get your teeth into :eek:

Fishooks12

rrpc wrote: »

Rather than getting all het up about whether or not Heaslip's new boots make him slower, here's something that Gerry Thornley has written in today's IT:



Now, there's something to get your teeth into :eek:

I had an inkling it would be O Leary. Joke really

Tox56

What's Thornley on about, Marahall was the first player he mentioned, then said TOL and Stringer were in there too.