Ireland Tour to New Zealand 2012 Discussion thread

Quint2010

rrpc wrote: »

Rather than getting all het up about whether or not Heaslip's new boots make him slower, here's something that Gerry Thornley has written in today's IT:



Now, there's something to get your teeth into :eek:

Yeah I read that with some amusement. It's as if Thornley reads these boards and just hung it out there...

profitius

Teferi wrote: »

The majority of the people who criticise Heaslip seem to be Munster supporters* with a questionable understanding of the game or a lack of bias so it stands to reason that people would argue with them.

Apart from that, as Emmet has proven, whenever these people are asked for solid proof of his lack of form they are unable to provide any or their attempts to prove it are rubbished because they are talking out of their arse.

*Not trying to start a provincial pissing contest by the way however I have noticed that the largest section criticising him seem to come from the Munster base.

Ball carrying and physicality are my main concerns with Heaslip. As I've said many times, I've nothing against the man but he is not as good as some people make him out to be. Denis Leamy can on as sub during the world cup and made a bigger impact than Heaslip did throughout the world cup.

I'm not saying Heaslip shouldn't play for Ireland. I'd like to see some rotation and try some other players out there.

Tox56

Just read the article there, and was pleasantly surprised that there was a hint of criticism for Kidney.

Gentle criticism, like the contradiction where Kidney didn't take Cullen because of age and needing a replacement, but brought ROG and left Madigan at home. Its better than no criticism. Also questioned the exclusion of Gilroy/D Kearney/Wallace.

Quint2010

profitius wrote: »

Ball carrying and physicality are my main concerns with Heaslip. As I've said many times, I've nothing against the man but he is not as good as some people make him out to be. Denis Leamy can on as sub during the world cup and made a bigger impact than Heaslip did throughout the world cup.

I'm not saying Heaslip shouldn't play for Ireland. I'd like to see some rotation and try some other players out there.

It patently obvious that Heaslips role for Leinster has changed since both Schmidt and SOB came on the scene. Heaslip was unbelievable in 2010 but I firmly believe he has been asked to play a different type of game since then. The only other player I would possibly advocate playing at 8 in a 3 test series against the world champions would be SOB. Do you have other suggestions?

rrpc

Tox56 wrote: »

Just read the article there, and was pleasantly surprised that there was a hint of criticism for Kidney.

Gentle criticism, like the contradiction where Kidney didn't take Cullen because of age and needing a replacement, but brought ROG and left Madigan at home. Its better than no criticism. Also questioned the exclusion of Gilroy/D Kearney/Wallace.

Yes, it starts at last. Something similar if a little more probing from David Kelly in yesterday's Indo:

Cullen remains mystified as to why Ireland haven't pushed on from the platform provided by a Leinster side brimful with national talent.
"Of course this can help Ireland," he said. "I think Irish rugby is in a pretty good place. There has been a lot of frustration around the national team, it seems they're just not quite firing, for whatever reason."
That reason, so many people surmise, just may be the man who guides Leinster, one whose enthusiasm for his players is so utterly infectious.

dub_skav

Jaysus, how did this turn into a Heaslip thread.
Well, here I come with my ill-considered opinion.

The break off the scrum is no longer an oft used tactic by clever coaches. The scrum is the only time when you have a 7 on 7 with a full pitch to play in, the 8 picking and getting at best to the 10 channel means that the whole oppositon pack can get to the ruck quickly.
Cheika was a forward and trying to instill a toughness in the Leinster team, so he still saw the 8 break as a crucial pivotal tactic for his Leinster team - hence Heaslip's great work off the scrum in that period.
Schmidt is a back and an extremely clever operator so he sees the scrum as the essential tool for launching backline moves.
Kidney is a moron so his "tactics" don't seem to suggest a plan at all.

BoardsMember

dub_skav wrote: »

Jaysus, how did this turn into a Heaslip thread.
Well, here I come with my ill-considered opinion.

The break off the scrum is no longer an oft used tactic by clever coaches. The scrum is the only time when you have a 7 on 7 with a full pitch to play in, the 8 picking and getting at best to the 10 channel means that the whole oppositon pack can get to the ruck quickly.
Cheika was a forward and trying to instill a toughness in the Leinster team, so he still saw the 8 break as a crucial pivotal tactic for his Leinster team - hence Heaslip's great work off the scrum in that period.
Schmidt is a back and an extremely clever operator so he sees the scrum as the essential tool for launching backline moves.
Kidney is a moron so his "tactics" don't seem to suggest a plan at all.

Good post.

rrpc

dub_skav wrote: »

Jaysus, how did this turn into a Heaslip thread.
Well, here I come with my ill-considered opinion.

The break off the scrum is no longer an oft used tactic by clever coaches. The scrum is the only time when you have a 7 on 7 with a full pitch to play in, the 8 picking and getting at best to the 10 channel means that the whole oppositon pack can get to the ruck quickly.
Cheika was a forward and trying to instill a toughness in the Leinster team, so he still saw the 8 break as a crucial pivotal tactic for his Leinster team - hence Heaslip's great work off the scrum in that period.
Schmidt is a back and an extremely clever operator so he sees the scrum as the essential tool for launching backline moves.
Kidney is a moron so his "tactics" don't seem to suggest a plan at all.

+1

Apart from the fact that of all the players going on tour, Heaslip is one of the few for whom there's no credible alternative or even back up option.

And lest someone jump on that as some criticism of the rest of the squad, it's not. The biggest disappointment for me is that there are not more players going to get much needed experience before they inevitably will be thrown in at the deep end when injuries hit in the future.

snow mad

rrpc wrote: »

Also, the 8 has to carry from a standing start, can't see who's behind him whereas the SH has a better view, can take the ball, pick the runner and pass to them.

.

+1 certainly this was the case a couple of times in the HC final as soon as heaslip looked to withdraw from the back of the scrum reddan was up to collect the ball and spread it wide and to good effect a few times

trackguy

I thought Reddan had an excellent game on Saturday. Good running, slick passing, effective box kicking. I hope he will be no.1 on this tour leaving Murray as second choice I guess.

The 3rd 9 will see little/ no gametime so it's not such a big issue. Agreed on Marshall though, he has much more to offer at this stage than TOL/ Stringer.

desertcircus

Fishooks12 wrote: »

desertcircus wrote: »

I sometimes get the feeling that criticism of Heaslip comes almost entirely from Munster fans who remember him trampling all over the pack in the Magners semi two years ago and can't accept that's no longer his role. If he's good enough to be one of two players to play every minute of a Heineken-winning campaign, in a team that has an embarrassment of riches in the backrow, then consider the possibility that the talk of all his less visible work at the breakdown is accurate.

Give over that provincial bull****

Any Munster fan with an ion of knowledge about the game knows how well Heaslip is playing

We're not all as spiteful as you'd think

I never said anything about Munster fans in general; I have no doubt most Munster fans are fully aware of his quality. I'm saying that I suspect most people who think Heaslip has been poor are Munster fans - but I think they're heavily outnumbered by Munster fans who know just how good he is.

CatFromHue

Other than Heaslips body position going into contact I don't see what all the fuss is about.

Higher

I wouldn't take the critcism of Heaslip seriously. A certain portion of Munster fans have had it in for him since day one.

Lets not forget, when Heaslip was going on barn-storming runs he was called by Munster fans a show-pony who doesn't do the grunt.

Its bitterness, plain and simple.

Heaslip has not been poor this season. Hes one of THE vital players in what is now being hailed as the greatest club side to ever exist.

Fishooks12

Some of the people do realise that there is more than just Munster and Leinster people posting here

Christ the painting of every munster fan as bitter is pathetic at this stage

Tox56

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Some of the people do realise that there is more than just Munster and Leinster people posting here

Christ the painting of every munster fan as bitter is pathetic at this stage

He's clearly a wind up, but to be fair even he said only "a certain portion" of Munster fans.

Fishooks12

Tox56 wrote: »

He's clearly a wind up, but to be fair even he said only "a certain portion" of Munster fans.

It's still provincial pot stirring

I'm sure there's Ulster fans who don't like Jamie either

Idiots support every province, using "a certain section" is just subtle flaming

keane2097

Well he's probably right that there are probably not very many Leinster fans mistakenly deriding Heaslip's form.

All the complainers are Munster fans != all Munster fans are complaining

Fishooks12

keane2097 wrote: »

Well he's probably right that there are probably not very many Leinster fans mistakenly deriding Heaslip's form.

All the complainers are Munster fans != all Munster fans are complaining

I'm a Munster fan not complaining, shoots that logic out of the sky

desertcircus

Fishooks12 wrote: »

Some of the people do realise that there is more than just Munster and Leinster people posting here

Christ the painting of every munster fan as bitter is pathetic at this stage

For the second time: not all Munster fans are being painted as bitter.

rrpc

desertcircus wrote: »

For the second time: not all Munster fans are being painted as bitter.

Can we move on from this please?

If there are any trolls out there, they'll be drawn to this like flies to sh1t.

keane2097

Fishooks12 wrote: »

I'm a Munster fan not complaining, shoots that logic out of the sky

Try reading my post again.

CoDy1

Fishooks12 wrote: »

I'm a Munster fan not complaining, shoots that logic out of the sky

'!=' does not equal '='

Fishooks12

2 or 3 people on an internet forum who are Munsterfans question his form, which they are entitled to do, I think he's had a great year but it would be a boring forum if everyone agreed

Suddenly that means that "a section" of Munster fans are bitter because Heaslip played well against us a year ago?!

sydthebeat

theres no question that heaslip is our best 8 right now bar none....

his open play line breaks have been stifled a bit due to o briens form, especially last year.. so his aesthetic impact on a game may not be as much as it was 3-4 years ago... that being said he is alot more affective around the ruck area than he was back then....

personally think we've nothing to worry about in that area.

boynesider

It seems to me that Heaslip is second only to BOD in terms of being a player of whom no criticism is allowed.

People pretending that he is anywhere close to the standards he set a few years ago are actually insulting him, because he was a magnificent 8 around the time of the last lions tour who did everything he does now and carried well in the tight and loose. I don't know why but his carrying has gone to muck

But the question is who is there to challenge him because even if he isn't the player he was he may still be the best 8 we have. I've been enormously impressed by POM whenever I've seen him there for Munster but Test rugby is obviously a huge step up. Personally I would like to see POM start a game at 8 against the All Blacks to see how he gets on. He definitely has the ball skills to be an effective 8 anyway and who knows the competition might even do Heaslip the world of good.

Fishooks12

sydthebeat wrote: »

theres no question that heaslip is our best 8 right now bar none....

his open play line breaks have been stifled a bit due to o briens form, especially last year.. so his aesthetic impact on a game may not be as much as it was 3-4 years ago... that being said he is alot more affective around the ruck area than he was back then....

personally think we've nothing to worry about in that area.

We do if he gets injured!

sydthebeat

Fishooks12 wrote: »

We do if he gets injured!

yes, your very correct

the same could be said for probably 3/4 of the positions though.

Apart from 9, 10, 2, and possibly on the wing.. where replacements dont offer anything significantly less than the player they replace.

rrpc

Fishooks12 wrote: »

We do if he gets injured!

Indeed, but with Kidney in charge, we'll have POM called in or TOD and the back row re-shuffled until eventually we're putting Ryan in the back row at which point the head scratching will start and some wet behind the ears youngster will be dragged in to fill the void.

.ak

You'd imagine if Heaslip got injured SOB would fit into 8, POM to 7? Would be nice to have Locky in the squad as a bolter though, because then we're relying on Fez's dodgy knees...

2 players per position is the dream

1. Healy / Court - Wilkonson / McAllister
2. Best / Cronin - Sherry not a million miles off the pace, Strauss IQ in November
3. Ross / N/A - step down to Fitzpatrick / Court / Loughney, and then again to Macklin / Hagan / Archer
4. POC / McCarthy - Toner
5. Ryan / Tuohy - (not bad cover tbh, will get some change from Caldwell, Nagle, Flannagan, Henderson, Kearney)
6. Ferris / SOB - POM, McLaughlin, Muldoon
7. SOB / Henry - POM, Ryan (not really)
8. Heaslip / Henry - POM and SOB
9. Reddan / Murray - Boss and Marshall
10. Sexton/ ROG - Madigan, Jackson, Keatley to push into that second jersey within 12 months.
11. Earls / Trimble - Fitz, Gilroy, Kearney, Zebo, O'Halloran
12. D'Arcy / McFadden - Sexton (:eek:), Wallace, Spence will be here soon
13. BOD / Cave - Earls , McFadden
14. Bowe / Trimble - McFadden, Gilroy, Kearney.
15. Kearney / Earls - Jones - fall off to A.Darcy and D.Kearney

We are not that far off it, but none of that has anything to do with the National Squad.